Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

have there been any vids out of Norcal/WC recently? Waffles' channel has been dead for months...

Wenbobular said:

Are you not subbed to Waffles's channel or something <_<

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No I am not
I should be but I never get around to it

Walt said:

Norcal. SFAT is in grand finals with Shroomed like 90% of our tournaments. Usually gets 2nd, beat him with Falco in GF recently.

Also how could people not heard of him yet? He was the highest placing Fox at Genesis 2 not counting Mango. He placed higher than Lovage. Although he did have easier bracket matches than Lovage.

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That's cool
I had just never heard of him, no one ever said anything, and I don't really keep up with the up and comings
Mostly focused on my own area, I'm sure you can understand

He's not really up and coming ... he's been around for a while now <__<

anyone hear about this guy mango?

No i havent. Hes probably just another spacie fad guy

Well you know what I mean

who's this mango character
Is he any good

if you don't know about sfat, you will prob learn w/n the coming months

SFAT is adorable, I hear.

Mango is a pretty good player. He made it to r3 pools at genesis 2.

0Room said:

Can someone link me a really good match of BF
I've only seen like 3 matches of his and they weren't of him playing anyone close to his level

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my1g1md75mA

And more in the related videos.

DaShizBizROflame> cage the warrior???!!?

KirbyKaze said:

SFAT is adorable, I hear.

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I'm straight and I think he's a cute kid.

KirbyKaze said:

SFAT is adorable, I hear.

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lol

oh, you

I've been having a hell of a time with foxes lately. This last tournament i really only had trouble with the foxes there. (in both singles and teams) And with juggleguy's tournament coming up i want to really make sure that i'll have some solid stuff to fall back on in the matchup. Because right now i'm batting practically 0 against foxes in recent tournaments for the year.

Can anyone give some advice? I really want to make a splash at this Michigan tournament.

if u got recent vids we can help u out on spots

s2j said:

if u got recent vids we can help u out on spots

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I may or may not. All depends on what my recording setup got at this last tournament. I'll be checking that tomorrow hopefully.

Pretty much what S2J said

Umm one thing you should definitely remember is that you CANNOT throw out moves
Imagine this match up like you were Marth. Once you get that grab you are in a great position, but should you miss any move for ANY reason bad things are about to happen to you

Fox is so fast he can literally nair anything you do on reaction
So keep that in mind

I like to tech chase with grabs for two reasons:
Figure out their pattern and annoy the **** out of them
When you knee and miss they get away, you literally cannot grab them again in time, they always have the time period to come back and hit you
So just grabbing will allow you to get into a favorable position/make them miss tech [on purpose or no] and then knee them

If they tech in place a lot of times you can DD in front of them and they'll spot dodge or roll
Basically you're just forcing an option
And if they come back at you just run away

CF is pretty good
You just have to abuse his really good abilities
That being DD, Stomp, Knee, and Grab

Uthrow->elbow works at 80%, knee at 100%
Stomp->knee works as low at like 46% iirc [S2J tried it once at like 36% and lost the tournament set, got really angry at BigD about it] but around 50% is really doable if you're fast
Stomps on tech roll ins is really cool
Knees on tech roll outs is kind of your best option
Techs in place if you can read them are best responded to with a knee [if you get above them sometimes they have time to tech roll because they see you preparing]
umm

Just stay patient
And murder them slowly
It can be really frustrating at times but just remember you're just as fast as him
But also remember
He's just as fast as you

0Room said:

Umm one thing you should definitely remember is that you CANNOT throw out moves
Imagine this match up like you were Marth. Once you get that grab you are in a great position, but should you miss any move for ANY reason bad things are about to happen to you

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Depends on your definition of "throw out moves"; you have to do some moves to keep him honest

Fox is so fast he can literally nair anything you do on reaction
So keep that in mind

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I don't think this is true either...

When you knee and miss they get away, you literally cannot grab them again in time, they always have the time period to come back and hit you

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It depends on the stage positioning. If you guessed the tech in place and they techrolled towards the edge and you are fast you still have a slight advantage. But yea its bad if you miss

Meaning you can't just nair to keep Fox out [which is something a lot of people who don't really understand that you can't do this do]
And yes he can lmao

If he's not doing anything
[assume you are approaching with this]
Lets say you stomp
He can nair you
Nair? nair you
low uair? not really. So you have me there
And bair he can obviously nair you

Like if you're slow at all
Once I missed a tech chase for just a second [DD'd inwards, then followed the tech out] and came back to stomp
Falco nair'd me out of it

Basically you just don't want to give them the chance to nair
So [shrugs]

0Room said:

Meaning you can't just nair to keep Fox out [which is something a lot of people who don't really understand that you can't do this do]

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Agreed with that. But that's rather different from what you said.

And yes he can lmao

If he's not doing anything
[assume you are approaching with this]
Lets say you stomp
He can nair you
Nair? nair you
low uair? not really. So you have me there
And bair he can obviously nair you

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Sure, often times whiffed stomp gets you naired. It's his slowest move. If it's a retreating stomp it definitely does not get "naired on reaction" but a lot of times it's dangerous cause it lets fox start pressuring you. Still not the same as "getting naired on reaction".

Falcon's nair vs. Fox's nair is a complicated issue, which one wins depends on timing/spacing/whatever, so I don't think it's fair to say that Fox can always "nair it on reaction". Throwing out nairs predictably blows like you said in a previous point, which I agree with, but if you aren't predictable with it it isn't that easy to punish. Definitely not always on reaction.

Bair "he can obviously nair you"? Bair doesn't have much lag, so he has to start moving a bit early to punish it. That's dangerous for him to do there's a lot of variation in timing to it between AC ff bair, late bair, and empty short hop. I've had a lot of success baiting nair with empty short hop as if I'm going to bair and just fast falling, dashing away, and stomping.

Like if you're slow at all
Once I missed a tech chase for just a second [DD'd inwards, then followed the tech out] and came back to stomp
Falco nair'd me out of it

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Completely under your control though. It's reasonable to expect good enough control of your character for that stuff not to happen when you are discussing aspects of the matchup.

Basically you just don't want to give them the chance to nair
So [shrugs]

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The way to do that I feel is to find the right balance of punishing approaches hard when you call them and having a bit of proactiveness/unpredictability so they can't push for space on you at will. That's what I mean by keep them honest - if you're always dashdancing back and literally will not commit to hitting them ever because it's risky, they can just gradually gain advantage until they can pick a spot where it's safe for them to attack you. The farther away their "safe" zone is from you, the more they have to commit if they want to attack you.

That's one of the strongest parts of PP's falcon imo from when I played him - he really made me be wary of Falcon's max threat range out of his DD by occasionally using fully approaching sh aerials, or running up and grabbing me, when I got too insistent in getting close enough to set up an approach.

Obv. PP is like the greatest player ever and way better than me etc. etc. so he could afford to be riskier than usual but I think the point about the matchup is still valid

0Room said:

Pretty much what S2J said

Umm one thing you should definitely remember is that you CANNOT throw out moves
Imagine this match up like you were Marth. Once you get that grab you are in a great position, but should you miss any move for ANY reason bad things are about to happen to you

Fox is so fast he can literally nair anything you do on reaction
So keep that in mind

I like to tech chase with grabs for two reasons:
Figure out their pattern and annoy the **** out of them
When you knee and miss they get away, you literally cannot grab them again in time, they always have the time period to come back and hit you
So just grabbing will allow you to get into a favorable position/make them miss tech [on purpose or no] and then knee them

If they tech in place a lot of times you can DD in front of them and they'll spot dodge or roll
Basically you're just forcing an option
And if they come back at you just run away

CF is pretty good
You just have to abuse his really good abilities
That being DD, Stomp, Knee, and Grab

Uthrow->elbow works at 80%, knee at 100%
Stomp->knee works as low at like 46% iirc [S2J tried it once at like 36% and lost the tournament set, got really angry at BigD about it] but around 50% is really doable if you're fast
Stomps on tech roll ins is really cool
Knees on tech roll outs is kind of your best option
Techs in place if you can read them are best responded to with a knee [if you get above them sometimes they have time to tech roll because they see you preparing]
umm

Just stay patient
And murder them slowly
It can be really frustrating at times but just remember you're just as fast as him
But also remember
He's just as fast as you

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got angry at bigd?? lol??

Winston said:

The way to do that I feel is to find the right balance of punishing approaches hard when you call them and having a bit of proactiveness/unpredictability so they can't push for space on you at will. That's what I mean by keep them honest - if you're always dashdancing back and literally will not commit to hitting them ever because it's risky, they can just gradually gain advantage until they can pick a spot where it's safe for them to attack you. The farther away their "safe" zone is from you, the more they have to commit if they want to attack you.

That's one of the strongest parts of PP's falcon imo from when I played him - he really made me be wary of Falcon's max threat range out of his DD by occasionally using fully approaching sh aerials, or running up and grabbing me, when I got too insistent in getting close enough to set up an approach.

Obv. PP is like the greatest player ever and way better than me etc. etc. so he could afford to be riskier than usual but I think the point about the matchup is still valid

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Kevin's Falcon is really interesting
He's made me understand a lot of things about vertical movement and how no one really has a lot of answers to speedy stomps

But I understand what you're saying
Attacking without actually hitting just means that you are going to get hit by Fox
Which is what I meant by throwing out moves

But yeah Kevin's Falcon is really interesting and I wanna figure it out
I just don't really have a lot of time to play him lol

s2j said:

got angry at bigd?? lol??

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Yeah it was a long time ago
You posted a video and was like "BigD you told me I could do this and this is what happened >"
And you tried stomp->knee at 36%, missed it, he teched in place, shine spiked you

no what happened was i got 39% in training mode, he tried it at lower than that, and then said "bigd i refuse to believe you got 25% or w/e you said"

i dont think he was angry though

46% is pretty doable, i've done it in tournament, the best part is theyre just thinking about teching so they dont DI a lot of the time

edit: found it http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11964609&postcount=14645

he said lol, that means no hard feelings

0Room said:

Kevin's Falcon is really interesting
He's made me understand a lot of things about vertical movement and how no one really has a lot of answers to speedy stomps

But I understand what you're saying
Attacking without actually hitting just means that you are going to get hit by Fox
Which is what I meant by throwing out moves

But yeah Kevin's Falcon is really interesting and I wanna figure it out
I just don't really have a lot of time to play him lol



Yeah it was a long time ago
You posted a video and was like "BigD you told me I could do this and this is what happened >"
And you tried stomp->knee at 36%, missed it, he teched in place, shine spiked you

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ur hella dumb if you think i got 'mad' at bigD

JPOBS said:

have there been any vids out of Norcal/WC recently? Waffles' channel has been dead for months...

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wQo3Icg2Kg

that's grand finals from itt 6 and some other matches deep in singles bracket (channel: ddonttrip). idk if much of itt 5 ever got uploaded but you can find a couple of matches on the channel dvcrecroom. also, sfat created a new channel called meleepacwest, which is probably going to be the new norcal youtube home so subscribe to that

Lol no
Apparently sarcasm or any kind of exaggeration is hard to tell over the internet
I was saying you were kind of frustrated because you misunderstood
But not angry

And yes BigD that's the post I was talking about
I felt like the fact that you weren't actually angry was pretty obvious which we apparently both agree on

edit;
So let's talk about that video that Tarheel posted

Why did SS get shut down so hard by Shroomed?
What was it that he did in particular that just made sure that SS couldn't do anything?
What could have SS done?

Personally
I didn't feel like SS really was trying until the third match, where he actually started doing things
Shroomed kinda knew his timing, and SS didn't really mix it up until the third match
Whenever Shroomed got him off stage SS stayed off stage [third match is again, something to look at here]
I feel like shroomed did what Falcon should do to Fox: Using a lot of grabs to take away his mobility and keep control of the match

What do you agree/disagree with?

Thanks a lot for the tips 0Room. Lately I have been full hopping stinks and bairs to keep foxes at bay, but it's effectiveness has gotten to be better as a mixup.

One last question. When fox is doing his squirrely pressure, I've seen a lot of falcons fair OOS and nailing them with it during their shine. I have tried recreating this in matches but I can't figure out what fox has to do wrong in order to give me this option.

Where have you seen that?

Will find links when I'm out of class

do we have a set of vids of pp's falcon? i can look later just not now

There are some videos
But not like a legit tourney sets afaik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFfQMT6mcS8&list=FLjE39ZosS9ZyXedHa82C0cg&index=9
Here's a match that I saved for certain reasons
Like for aggression and recovery and stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJg1lewgy5U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl-4XN3rE_E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-wJLl7G6x0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTOFNs2-AiA

0Room said:

Lol no
Apparently sarcasm or any kind of exaggeration is hard to tell over the internet
I was saying you were kind of frustrated because you misunderstood
But not angry

And yes BigD that's the post I was talking about
I felt like the fact that you weren't actually angry was pretty obvious which we apparently both agree on

edit;
So let's talk about that video that Tarheel posted

Why did SS get shut down so hard by Shroomed?
What was it that he did in particular that just made sure that SS couldn't do anything?
What could have SS done?

Personally
I didn't feel like SS really was trying until the third match, where he actually started doing things
Shroomed kinda knew his timing, and SS didn't really mix it up until the third match
Whenever Shroomed got him off stage SS stayed off stage [third match is again, something to look at here]
I feel like shroomed did what Falcon should do to Fox: Using a lot of grabs to take away his mobility and keep control of the match

What do you agree/disagree with?

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you are hella dumb dude

0Room said:

Personally
I didn't feel like SS really was trying until the third match, where he actually started doing things
Shroomed kinda knew his timing, and SS didn't really mix it up until the third match
Whenever Shroomed got him off stage SS stayed off stage [third match is again, something to look at here]
I feel like shroomed did what Falcon should do to Fox: Using a lot of grabs to take away his mobility and keep control of the match

What do you agree/disagree with?

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SS doesn't really abuse matchup specifics I feel; he just tries to read the opponent and uses those together with movement tricks to land hits. Shroomed is a really good player and didn't fall for it very much. Often times SS would use his trademark double jump maneuvers and shroomed would just time a utilt to knock him out of it and start comboing. Double jumping isn't as effective if you don't fight them on the short hop/dash dance level as well.

SS didn't really punish Shroomed's uair approaches/shield pressure very well. A lot of times he fell for the crossup aerial stuff.

His punishment wasn't great (he didn't use grab -> uair x 5 times very well) and he didn't get around Shroomed's punishment well either. (DIing into uairs, usually techrolling on platforms to let shroomed waveland reaction chase).

SS did a lot of stuff right too, but that's what I saw. Also shroomed is pretty good, apparently.

About your comment... Uhh, "using a lot of grabs to take away mobility" seems like a weird way to say "use grabs to punish the crap out of them."

best way to describe SS is hes a minimalistic player who goes for weird/ insane sick reads that completely catch you off guard and **** you

I am pretty much the opposite and always want to be spamming out moves, pressing buttons all day

overall, i think shroomed exploits jeffs style pretty well. hes also better now overall IMO.

its tough to say jeff wasn't trying throughout the set. Game 1 he had it in the bag but after shroomed air dodged he really shoulda just b-aired shroomed back into the stage while he double jumps back on. He didn't and then got ***** for it

jeff is a notorious sandbagger until last few stocks but I dont get the sandbag vibe from these games. Shroomed was really just a few steps ahead and even then jeff has some sick soul reads

0room , you say some wrong **** sometimes and this time was no exception. its therefore tough to say that you are not also wrong about me and bigD. Because you are wrong sometimes I can't simply assume its sarcasm. it's like the boy who cried wolf. except instead of crying wolf you are spouting stuff that is wrong. I have no regret taking you seriously.

==

just read winstons post, he pretty much repeats what i say on most parts. Jeff is a sick reader and doesn't abuse gay **** like other falcons should do. He doesn't do ashole n-airs like me, hes slower, (and thus usually more predictable except when he does a crazy read) Dajuan who is experienced vs SS and has good reflexes won't get pooped on often by SS

so theres nothing to say, no sandbagging on jeff's part, definitely rustiness (especially DI/ tech choices/ some punishes), he just goes for that sicko read where he lands a knee by baiting out stuff or forcing Dajuan into situations.

But there are far more trades in Dajuans favor, Dajuans punishes are usually stronger (esp. cuz he has better DI after getting hit)

Also its weird to say he started trying in match 3 because thats like the match his anus got punctured the most as Doc shoves his fist up falcon's ashole, rupturing it violently

s2j said:

0room , you say some wrong **** sometimes and this time was no exception. its therefore tough to say that you are not also wrong about me and bigD. Because you are wrong sometimes I can't simply assume its sarcasm. it's like the boy who cried wolf. except instead of crying wolf you are spouting stuff that is wrong. I have no regret taking you seriously.

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Okay two things:
http://********/images/jackie-chan-whut/jackie-chan-whut.jpg

2)
http://********/images/jackie-chan-whut/jackie-chan-whut.jpg





3)
I think the best way to explain this is a difference in definitions

I think it's safe to say that Shroomed kinda had SS figured out as far as those movement tricks, like Winston said
on top of that, I know that SS is good enough to realize when something isn't working [otherwise he wouldn't be here]

Are we all agreeing so far?
Good

Anyway where I'm going with this is that I feel like we have different definitions for sandbagging
Or I should say that my idea of sandbagging is tied closely to my ideas and beliefs about movement
So my personal definition of sandbagging being that the player is choosing not to win with their fullest extent. That being [outside of personal factors of being sick/emotionally unstable (i.e. angry) etc] not trying their hardest to succeed [including adapting when the opportunity is available to them and they are able to do so].
There just isn't a drive that is evidently available.

Like referencing back to what I was saying
You need to change up things if it's not working and know that they aren't working
There were a lot of times when I felt like SS just did things that he knew weren't going to work [such as just nairing a shield and landing right in front of them]

I think the best way to explain it is that, again, my feelings on movement are closely tied to this.
I look at movement as a gauge of how someone is feeling, meaning that movement to me is a form of expression and how they are attempting to play.

So I feel like if there's not a lot of movement, there's not a lot of drive.
That being said, since there was a lot of movement (which to me feels like a lot of aggression, an attempt to get into your opponents head) in the third match, to me that shows that there's a drive to win back in SS.

If you just stand there and do like a nair I personally don't feel like that's actively attempting to do things
But again that's just a differing in style so that makes sense
I will refrain from making psychological comments in the future if it bothers you that much

Because you're right I'm not right all the time
I never have said I was or that I will be

If anything I feel like you should call me out on it more often if you know better
Then the responsibility of that falls to you

If you believe that the burden of knowledge falls that way, anyway


So anything else?
Does this make sense?
Or does it need further explanation?
If you think I'm wrong then feel free to let me know
Clearly Winston does this all the time

Even though most of the time it's again, a difference in definition
So apparently I need to make these things more clear

eh, doing stuff that is weird or looks like it is not going to work is just jeff's m.o.

i thought he moved around in pretty classic ss fashion-- what about his movement did you think was lacking? he is very unconventional in the way he baits so the fact that he didn't do a lot of standard dding isn't necessarily indicative of how hard he was trying

you talk like you know silentspectre to a guy whos watched SS vids for years and you aren't even subscribed to HMW's channel

jeff isn't sandbagging. I already told you he's a minimalist falcon and his style is unique to him and works best for him. Its easy to perceive when he isn't trying especially vs people who are a lot worse than him, jeff kinda gets smacked around and then last stock he annihilates them. He isn't doing that here. He goes for smart plays but Shroomed is pretty much a step ahead each time. Not moving like a modern day non-SS doesn't mean he's not trying.

W/E

he ***** me lol

I think vs other falcons im gunna play supremely gay regrab style, moreso depending on how much I wanna win