New Smash Bros for WiiU

Oasis_S · Oct 6, 2011

Shortiecanbrawl said:
I don't see King K. Rool actually happening. I can see Dixie, but I've got serious doubts about K. Rool.

Just a gut feeling. Same goes with Waluigi, and Ridley. Of course with Waluigi I have a gut feeling he may pop up somewhere.....playable...

Don't you do this to me.

y.toonlink · Oct 6, 2011

@Yamcha
I know I love SA2 and I can see you share this love (maybe more lol) but I don't think Sonic's gonna have too much SA2 moves. Bounce Attack is a really nice addition that definitely changes up his play tho...

Starphoenix · Oct 6, 2011

JavaCroc said:
Sorry, man. I was just bringing the idea up. I wasn't trying to copy your stage.

Anyways, since no one paid attention to this old concept of mine, thought I'd bring it up:

I'm just teasing man. I know you are not, I just found it funny how you stumbled upon a similar idea as me. :laugh:

Your idea is nice. Although all I really want back are the "achievements" of sorts. Those were always fun to see what I ended up doing in a match.

Verde Coeden Scalesworth · Oct 6, 2011

y.toonlink said:
@HyperFalcon
What about choosing the direction Pika goes for QA or Mewtwo with Teleport? It just takes a fast thumb, and I don't imagine it as long as Yoshi's Egg Throw. A startup lag for the charge which I brought up for more rings is more punishable, but what charge isn't?

As for this L-Canceling thing, I think it's a nice technical barrier. It definitely separates players' tech skill than Wavedashing. The only real annoying thing I find from it is when I'm not playing and I hear my friends' controllers clicking all the time. It's just one of those things where I find Auto-Canceling like using the C-Stick for everything.

Those are recoveries, and you generally have time to do them when you were just knocked off. Also, having easy recoveries are bad. I'm referring to attacks specifically. Good point, though.

I disagree on the C-Stick part. You still have to hit it just right, otherwise you might hit the wrong direction. Also, it disallows you to charge your smashes.(and if you catch your opponent in a punishable position, you should be able to do that) I can agree they're too easy to use, but they aren't always a better choice. I personally use my own Smashes, and never rely on it in multiplayer. It's useful best in the air where it's able to get that directional attack. You can still move away from the opponent, like going Backwards, but using a Forward Air attack via the C-Stick. In a way, it's about how you utilize what seems like an OP option. It's part of the reason why C-Sticking isn't banned. It allows mind games to happen.

Shorts · Oct 6, 2011

I'll post something Smashy in a sec. Where is Iblis when you need him? I'm cooking fresh pasta for the first time and I want to know how to tell when it's done. It's texture is much more ambigous than dried pasta..

@"Gut Feelings"

Who else has them about certain characters?

JavaCroc · Oct 6, 2011

Starphoenix said:
I'm just teasing man. I know you are not, I just found it funny how you stumbled upon a similar idea as me.

Your idea is nice. Although all I really want back are the "achievements" of sorts. Those were always fun to see what I ended up doing in a match.

Well, using the Glare icon is not exactly a good way to present a joke.

Achievements were fun; I'd like them to return. Given that Sakurai seems to want to move away from the "hardcore" feel of Melee or SSB64's gameplay, though, I'm not expecting their return.

Anyways, I've been looking at some Elder Scrolls stuff recently, which has been inspiring some of my recent thoughts, both Smash Bros. or not. In regards to Smash Bros., I'd like to see levels in Adventure mode designed not in the very linear "start to finish" design we saw in Brawl, but with a Metroidvania feel, where each level is a sort of small overworld connecting many different sections that, while not necessarily leading directly to the end, provide other opportunities for players to seek.

I could even see all the levels being connected in certain ways. For example, the player could be exploring deep into one level and find a working Sky Cannon.

If the player uses the Sky Cannon, they are launched upwards and land in Skyworld. Heck, if you want to go far with the concept, these sort of events could trigger new sides of the story.

In addition, I'm oddly wanting to hear some eerie dungeon-esque music for Adventure Mode in Smash Bros. now that I've listened to Oblivion's great, discomforting dungeon music. What would not be creepy about hearing this music before entering a level in Adventure Mode?

Obviously, they'd have to choose Nintendo songs to make it work, but Zelda provides all the eerie dungeon music we'd need.

y.toonlink · Oct 6, 2011

HyperFalcon said:
Those are recoveries, and you generally have time to do them when you were just knocked off. Also, having easy recoveries are bad. I'm referring to attacks specifically. Good point, though.

I disagree on the C-Stick part. You still have to hit it just right, otherwise you might hit the wrong direction. Also, it disallows you to charge your smashes.(and if you catch your opponent in a punishable position, you should be able to do that) I can agree they're too easy to use, but they aren't always a better choice. I personally use my own Smashes, and never rely on it in multiplayer. It's useful best in the air where it's able to get that directional attack. You can still move away from the opponent, like going Backwards, but using a Forward Air attack via the C-Stick. In a way, it's about how you utilize what seems like an OP option. It's part of the reason why C-Sticking isn't banned. It allows mind games to happen.

Recovery or not, they require you input a fast direction after the initial so it can correlate to Sonic's Light Dash. Quick Attack is an attack.
And I know all that about C-Stick. I use it for UpAir going forward, and sometimes Fair going back and F/DSmash after Dash Cancel. I meant using it for everything though, without having to use it when you absolutely need to, which are what I listed. It's just the feeling I have about Auto-Canceling, but I'm a hypocrite because I use shortcuts in MvC3 xD

Verde Coeden Scalesworth · Oct 6, 2011

y.toonlink said:
Recovery or not, they require you input a fast direction after the initial so it can correlate to Sonic's Light Dash. Quick Attack is an attack.
And I know all that about C-Stick. I use it for UpAir going forward, and sometimes Fair going back and F/DSmash after Dash Cancel. I meant using it for everything though, without having to use it when you absolutely need to, which are what I listed. It's just the feeling I have about Auto-Canceling, but I'm a hypocrite because I use shortcuts in MvC3 xD

Well, Quick Attack was only an "attack" in Melee and Brawl. It was the same as a teleport originally. To be fair.

But fair enough.

Yeah, I get what you mean by stick-smashing. But I think the key difference is that you choose to use it, so it's only automatic if you touch the stick. Auto L-Cancel is not optionable. I get how it feels similar, though.

y.toonlink · Oct 6, 2011

I'm just talking about shortcuts, but like I said I use R2 as Med+Heavy in MvC3 and R3 for R1+L1.

Verde Coeden Scalesworth · Oct 6, 2011

y.toonlink said:
I'm just talking about shortcuts, but like I said I use R2 as Med+Heavy in MvC3 and R3 for R1+L1.

I acknowledged that. I think that's up to the person really.

I take the easy route too sometimes. It really depends the game, honestly. When I play competitive, I prefer the hard route where applicable.

y.toonlink · Oct 6, 2011

True, MvC is faster than Melee and Triangle+Circle are on the same side as opposed to Foward+A so R2 isn't that bad....but still it's like I'm dirty D: I also use the D-Pad......but I use the D-Pad for SoCal2 and I'm still pretty good in arcade...against the cpu. Gah, the shame

But you're right, shortcuts are there if you wanna use them. But still L-Canceling isn't that hard, and over time you get used to the timing for certain characters if you don't wanna rely on reflex

Verde Coeden Scalesworth · Oct 6, 2011

y.toonlink said:
True, MvC is faster than Melee and Triangle+Circle are on the same side as opposed to Foward+A so R2 isn't that bad....but still it's like I'm dirty D: I also use the D-Pad......but I use the D-Pad for SoCal2 and I'm still pretty good in arcade...against the cpu. Gah, the shame

But you're right, shortcuts are there if you wanna use them. But still L-Canceling isn't that hard, and over time you get used to the timing for certain characters if you don't wanna rely on reflex

That's my point. L-Cancelling isn't actually that hard. It takes a bit of practice, but can be done by anyone. This isn't like Wavedashing that requires a huge amount of precision. It's still a technical skill, but not beyond ridiculous or anything.

That's why I like it. It benefits you, but doesn't take much to do. To be fair, I rarely play other fighters, heh. As for Soul Calibur 2, I have to GCN and XBox versions. Both are good, I admit. But boy is Weapon Masters Mode a pain without Link.

Shorts · Oct 6, 2011

On a scale of one to ten, how wrong is it for me to want Karin from SFA in Smash bros over Megaman?

Verde Coeden Scalesworth · Oct 6, 2011

^ Karin's from a fighting game. Not wrong at all. ...Rival Schools atleast had a Nintendo appearance, right?

Kantrip · Oct 6, 2011

12/10 on the wrongness meter.

I got this number by counting the "HO!"s

y.toonlink · Oct 6, 2011

HyperFalcon said:
That's my point. L-Cancelling isn't actually that hard. It takes a bit of practice, but can be done by anyone. This isn't like Wavedashing that requires a huge amount of precision. It's still a technical skill, but not beyond ridiculous or anything.

That's why I like it. It benefits you, but doesn't take much to do. To be fair, I rarely play other fighters, heh. As for Soul Calibur 2, I have to GCN and XBox versions. Both are good, I admit. But boy is Weapon Masters Mode a pain without Link.

Wavedashing is just pressing X then R right away. Wavelanding is the same as L-Canceling tho relying on reflex, whereas SHFFLing and Wavedashing are just memorized timing for each character (without relying reflex).

I have SoCal for GC, but I've played it on XBox and PS2. I liked Weapon Master, too bad 2 didn't have it. Can't say too much for 4, I didn't play it too much.

Shortiecanbrawl said:
On a scale of one to ten, how wrong is it for me to want Karin from SFA in Smash bros over Megaman?

Meh, I want Zero, Ammy, or Leon over Megaman

Johnknight1 · Oct 6, 2011

It would be a ten trillion. If any Capcom character made it in smash over Mega Man I would probably commit suicide by jumping out of a plane...

in Grand Theft Auto. Actually, once I failed at suicide and lived.

Also, L-cancelling should be automatic. I think the recovery for attacks from air to land in Brawl took way to long; in Melee it was near perfect. (Auto) L-cancelling would help the slow characters a lot, and would create more offense (which smash is having less and less of, which in Brawl made the game worse with campy defense working much more often).

Also, lol at wave dashing requiring a huge amount of precision. I learned it in easily an hour, lol, and had it down to 100% muscle memory in a week. SHDL'ing... that requires more reflexes than I have. I've tried for about 4 years, and I'm still not fast enough to do it consistently.

Verde Coeden Scalesworth · Oct 6, 2011

y.toonlink said:
Wavedashing is just pressing X then R right away. Wavelanding is the same as L-Canceling tho relying on reflex, whereas SHFFLing and Wavedashing are just memorized timing for each character (without relying reflex).

I should've used the term Master, then. Yeah, it's not beyond hard to learn, but pulling it off is another story. L-Cancelling isn't hard to pull off consistently, really.

Meh, I want Zero, Ammy, or Leon over Megaman

Eh, I can't stand Zero. He feels shoehorned into stuff a lot. I mean, he got in over MegaMan in MvC3? What the hell?

^ How would it create more offense? And why is being faster a bad thing. I think Brawl was wayyyyy too slow. I like it a bit faster.

Starphoenix · Oct 6, 2011

Personally I think it is wrong wanting a third party character over any first or second character. That is just me and everyone is entitled to their choices.

Verde Coeden Scalesworth · Oct 6, 2011

Starphoenix said:
Personally I think it is wrong wanting a third party character over any first or second character. That is just me and everyone is entitled to their choices.

I agree. But it doesn't mean we can't look at third party choices. I mean, the only third party character I have a pipedream for(as in not happening no matter what) is Brian from Quest 64.(pure magic user!) Although THQ did make it solely on the n64, they're a third party company, soooo... Alternatively, Fulgore would be great.(over Jago, if only because Fulgore is technically the main overall character. Why else would his face be on two of the cartridges, with only the villain being on the last one? Odd, right?)

Johnknight1 · Oct 6, 2011

HyperFalcon said:
^ How would it create more offense? And why is being faster a bad thing. I think Brawl was wayyyyy too slow. I like it a bit faster.

L-cancelling = more air to land attacks, and would speed up the game, and create offense. Brawl didn't punish players enough for campy defense; this could really punish campy defense, especially against aerial attacks, and makes aerials more viable, and create combos and more chases.

y.toonlink · Oct 6, 2011

Johnknight1 said:
It would be a ten trillion. If any Capcom character made it in smash over Mega Man I would probably commit suicide by jumping out of a plane...

in Grand Theft Auto. Actually, once I failed at suicide and lived.

Also, L-cancelling should be automatic. I think the recovery for attacks from air to land in Brawl took way to long; in Melee it was near perfect. (Auto) L-cancelling would help the slow characters a lot, and would create more offense (which smash is having less and less of, which in Brawl made the game worse with campy defense working much more often).

Also, lol at wave dashing requiring a huge amount of precision. I learned it in easily an hour, lol, and had it down to 100% muscle memory in a week. SHDL'ing... that requires more reflexes than I have. I've tried for about 4 years, and I'm still not fast enough to do it consistently.

I got both down pretty fast. L-Canceling was easiest to practice with Link's Dair, then I just got used to it.
I dunno, I like that barrier that L-Canceling creates. It's just technical skill tho, brains are still more important

Verde Coeden Scalesworth · Oct 6, 2011

Johnknight1 said:
L-cancelling = more air to land attacks, and would speed up the game, and create offense. Brawl didn't punish players enough for campy defense; this could really punish campy defense, especially against aerial attacks, and makes aerials more viable, and create combos and more chases.

Now, hold on. Are you referring to Automatic or not? I just want to clarify.

Conviction · Oct 6, 2011

Pivot grabbing is beast, needs more pivot mechanics, like pivot shielding to counter obvious cross-ups.

y.toonlink · Oct 6, 2011

I never got a hang of Pivoting...but I dont use it so I could care less about it

@HyperFlascon
Capcom had some bullsh** reason that MM wouldn't be true to his game if they added him. I can see why Zero has more fighting game potential, Classic MM was in MvC2 as it is, along with Volnutt in TvC.

Shorts · Oct 6, 2011

Starphoenix said:
Personally I think it is wrong wanting a third party character over any first or second character. That is just me and everyone is entitled to their choices.

I think third party characters are overrated, personally. The two spots Sonic and Snake took, could have been Dixie and Roy, or Mewtwo and ....Roy. I don't like any of the other choices. Or it could have been Roy and that Villager who was rumored to be in development at one point. Just, I just... prefer Nintendo characaters over non-Nintendo characters when it comes to Smash.

Karin > Megaman. Basically, everyone > Megaman. Minus DHD.

Triforce Of Chozo · Oct 6, 2011

Making the game more technical makes it harder for new players to get into it as much, and creates a larger skill gap between new players and veterans. Also, I'm lazy and don't want to have to learn new techs (I'm not good at Melee or SSB64), although l-cancelling wouldn't be so bad I guess if you were Ganon or Link.
I agree with the need for more pivot mechanics, foxtrot fsmash needs to be better.

Verde Coeden Scalesworth · Oct 6, 2011

y.toonlink said:
@HyperFlascon
Capcom had some bullsh** reason that MM wouldn't be true to his game if they added him. I can see why Zero has more fighting game potential, Classic MM was in MvC2 as it is, along with Volnutt in TvC.

I disagree with Zero having more fighting game potential, though. MegaMan has over 80 Robot Master weapons, and that's just from his regular games. There's tons of different versions. Yes, but Zero was also in TvC. It doesn't explain why they couldn't have given X his fighting game debut. That felt really poor to do. And yes, the reason was bull****. Being too lazy to retool him? What? Lame.

I know I'm lazy, but I'm sure any dedicated fan could make a unique moveset. Also, it's not like people hate shoto clones anyway.(which was their excuse) Especially when they thought Akuma is fine, instead of someone like Bison in there.(and no, Akuma having been in all the VS games doesn't count since they omitted MegaMan, but kept his series in)

Zero over him doesn't bother me too much. He's an interesting character. But NEMESIS over MegaMan... just what?

^ We don't mean super technical. But having some technical aspects is fine. L-Cancelling made some of the slower characters better. It didn't have as much impact on the faster ones, I believe. I forget. But the problem with it being automatic is that it doesn't matter if you're good or not. It's fine in casuals, but being good is the point of competition after all. And I wouldn't call L-Cancelling a huge thing in skill gap, if that's what you're getting at. A lot of other ones, especially consistently, I can understand, but not this one.

y.toonlink · Oct 6, 2011

Well Nemesis is f**kin awesome. I've seen a MvC3 moveset for MM where every attack is a different weapon (even blocking had like all the shields, but they were just there for looks). It's really unique considering it's not just punches, kicks or slashing but I think it's a bit pointless to have all of them different since combos go by really fast.
I meant that Zero is just more of a fighting character character than MM, but that's still a poor reason since Phoenix Write is gonna be playable (still awesome tho)

Verde Coeden Scalesworth · Oct 6, 2011

y.toonlink said:
Well Nemesis is f**kin awesome. I've seen a MvC3 moveset for MM where every attack is a different weapon (even blocking had like all the shields, but they were just there for looks). It's really unique considering it's not just punches, kicks or slashing but I think it's a bit pointless to have all of them different since combos go by really fast.
I meant that Zero is just more of a fighting character character than MM, but that's still a poor reason since Phoenix Write is gonna be playable (still awesome tho)

I disagree on Nemesis' awesomeness. So that's a matter of perspective. I admit I like him, but not as much as MegaMan. But it's funny how Phoenix Wright got in too.

The WTF character choices are odd, I admit. And what makes Zero more of a fighter than MegaMan in your own opinion? I think moveset potential is the biggest reason. MM has a ton more moves than Zero, so I think he is more of a fighting game character. I'm quite interested in your reasons, though.

y.toonlink · Oct 6, 2011

Well considering Zero already has a sword for CQC without relying on other weapons or made up punches and kicks like MM is why Zero fits the role of a fighting character more. To me, a fighting game is about CQC, and although MM has a lot of weapons, Zero has the sword by default.

Waaat. Have you seen Nemesis in UMvC3 vids? He has a f**king rocket launcher, it's so bada** haha. He's pretty crazy RE3 too. I didn't think too much of his appearance in Hulk's ending with Chris, but then he shows up with a f**king rocket launcher! xD

Johnknight1 · Oct 6, 2011

HyperFalcon said:
Now, hold on. Are you referring to Automatic or not? I just want to clarify.

L-cancelling as a whole.

As in comparing Melee's air attack L-cancelling lag reduction (with or without combos following) to Brawl's air to land lag.

That difference is huge. Bring back what the landing lag was in Melee, and you got a much funner game, competitively and casually, because players can't just shield against aerials, roll away from them, or run away from them. And even if a hit did land, there usually wasn't much of a reward for the opposition, but there was high reward (that was Brawl's aerial lag cancelling system)

In Melee against aerial attacks, players (on defense) must properly space and be prepared for any following attacks, especially grabs. There is now high rewards and little risk for attacking from air to land, and that opens up the offensive potential for the game, and really forces you to play a smarter defense. And let's be honest: any smarter smash bros.' offensive or defensive game play can get without being whacko confusing-is a good thing, especially if it benefits both casual and competitive players.

Thino · Oct 6, 2011

Johnknight1 said:
That difference is huge. Bring back what the landing lag was in Melee, and you got a much funner game, competitively and casually

explain the bolded part.

how exactly do casuals care or find important for their fun to be able to shield against aerials?

Shorts · Oct 6, 2011

y.toonlink said:
Waaat. Have you seen Nemesis in UMvC3 vids? He has a f**king rocket launcher, it's so bada** haha. He's pretty crazy RE3 too. I didn't think too much of his appearance in Hulk's ending with Chris, but then he shows up with a f**king rocket launcher! xD

There was talk of Nemisis since PreMvC3. He was deconfirmed before the game came out because they thought it would be hard to tone his gore down.

Guess they did it. His wormy moves are the coolest thing about him.

Verde Coeden Scalesworth · Oct 6, 2011

Johnknight1 said:
L-cancelling as a whole.

As in comparing Melee's air attack L-cancelling lag reduction (with or without combos following) to Brawl's air to land lag.

That difference is huge. Bring back what the landing lag was in Melee, and you got a much funner game, competitively and casually, because players can't just shield against aerials, roll away from them, or run away from them. And even if a hit did land, there usually wasn't much of a reward for the opposition, but there was high reward (that was Brawl's aerial lag cancelling system)

In Melee against aerial attacks, players (on defense) must properly space and be prepared for any following attacks, especially grabs. There is now high rewards and little risk for attacking from air to land, and that opens up the offensive potential for the game, and really forces you to play a smarter defense. And let's be honest: any smarter smash bros.' offensive or defensive game play can get without being whacko confusing-is a good thing, especially if it benefits both casual and competitive players.

Ah, okay. So, what I want, generally. I fully understand what you mean. I didn't like how campy Brawl was either. Especially single player mode.

@y.toonlink: First, I'd like to note that I don't consider weapons badass. But fair enough. Also, people say QCQ all the time. I never knew what it means. Regardless, I don't think a sword makes him unique by any standards. Albeit, you can do a lot with one. I think what makes a character unique is their multitude of options and playstyle.

Johnknight1 · Oct 6, 2011

HyperFalcon said:
^ We don't mean super technical. But having some technical aspects is fine. L-Cancelling made some of the slower characters better. It didn't have as much impact on the faster ones, I believe. I forget. But the problem with it being automatic is that it doesn't matter if you're good or not. It's fine in casuals, but being good is the point of competition after all. And I wouldn't call L-Cancelling a huge thing in skill gap, if that's what you're getting at. A lot of other ones, especially consistently, I can understand, but not this one.

Slow, heavy characters with mediocre or worse recovery need to be consistently better in smash (not big and quick like DK, or big, average speed, and a recovery God like De3), and the Melee after aerial attack to land lag with L-cancelling benefited them the most. It could them some quick powerful combos that could really put them in an early lead. And an early lead with one of those kinds of characters... means you can get some quick kills with a big hit or two extra.

And L-cancelling isn't a skill gap thing IMO. I just think pressing 1 button to do something that could be automatically is kinda pointless and doesn't add anything to the game compared to if it was just automatic. It would be better to just simply focus on other techniques that require more timing like wave dashing (although the timing on that is easy), various combos, or techniques like SHLFs.

Also did you know L-cancelling was an official Smash 64 technique=??? On the official site it was listed as a "tip" skill, lol. More proof that Sakurai does have competitive aspects put into smash for those who doubt that he cares about competitive play...

Thino said:
explain the bolded part.

how exactly do casuals care or find important for their fun to be able to shield against aerials?

No, I meant to be able to come out of an aerial into a ground attack like in Melee when you L-cancel (except having it happen automatically) requires more intelligent defense, and really can cause more combos and open up the offense. Offense is probably 95% of a casual player's strategy, and minimal aerial attack to land lag can create offense, thus casual players would enjoy it more.

The attacker would more easily break shields of the defender waiting for you to land if done repetitively (and create further attacks), the attacker could quickly attack to create distance between themselves and the defender on the ground with the attack pushing the defender back if they shield, or the attacker could prevent a reaction and lead themselves right into a grab on the defender if they shield.

This also could prevent campy defense and stalling competitively, and really could create a better offense and defensive balance in smash, and would require better spacing, shielding, and defensive reactions to aerial attacks followed by a character landing on the ground.

Again, as long as something contributes to offense and defense remained somewhat balanced (yin and yang), and any good offense beats good defense for both casual and competitive players, I think that smash bros will continue to move in the right direction for the future.

@ HyperFalcon
Exactly.

All those campy players (specifically those campy Brawl noobs! DIE META KNIGHT NOOBS!) need to be punished, and this could be one of many ways to stop it. The problem with Brawl is good defense stops great offense. Personally, I think good offense should beat good defense, but c'mon! At least great offense should be a good defense (assuming you consider "great" better than "good").

The aggressor would control the pace of the aerial to land battle or win the aerial to land battle against the defender unless the defender:
A. Times out their opponent's attack patterns on the aerial attack and follow up attack or grab by perfectly shielding (probably would push you back often; also, perfect shielding needs to have a smaller window than it did in Brawl).
B. Times out their opponent's attack patterns on the aerial attack and follow up attack with perfect sidestep dodging.
C. Times out their opponent's aerial attack and any land attacks that follow with perfectly timed aerial dodging (it would be hard to do multiple times, but you could always jump and DI away).
C. Properly spaces based on the select move or moves the opponent would use, whether walking back, jumping, using DI, using a move, or using any technique, exploit, or glitch.
D. Grab or hit the attacker after the initial aerial quickly if a move has a bit of lag that leaves a tiny opening to getting attacked (also works on any follow up attacks obviously).
E. Dodge roll away (although this sets you up for ranged attacks, and is an awful habit).
F. Use a move like Marth's counter perfectly.
G. Land an attack that comes out quicker or has better priority against the opponent's aerial attack or any follow up attacks.
H. Cancel the foes' aerial attack or any follow up attacks with an attack with equal priority (and possibly follow up with it).
I. Unplug your foes' controller, Falcon Punch them, and yell "F***ING MIND GAMES, SON!!!!"
J. John if you get hit.

(The last two are jokes obviously)

Note that some of these "defensive" ideas are actually offensive counters on defense that thus promote offense as a defense, thus making the defense more "exciting" and giving the reward to those who know how to time out foes and know how to "mind game" their foes.

To me, that kind of game play would be much more exciting to watch. While I agree the basics of rewards and risks in Melee is better, I think this is more about moving smash in the right direction with defensive and offensive balance, not one game being better than the other. I think a lot of Brawl's defensive additions were excellent, minus several of the defensive features or parts of the defensive system being too good against offense (that is regardless of any techniques, exploits, or bugs in the game).

Verde Coeden Scalesworth · Oct 6, 2011

Johnknight1 said:
Slow, heavy characters with mediocre or worse recovery need to be consistently better in smash (not big and quick like DK, or big, average speed, and a recovery God like De3), and the Melee after aerial attack to land lag with L-cancelling benefited them the most. It could them some quick powerful combos that could really put them in an early lead. And an early lead with one of those kinds of characters... means you can get some quick kills with a big hit or two extra.

And L-cancelling isn't a skill gap thing IMO. I just think pressing 1 button to do something that could be automatically is kinda pointless and doesn't add anything to the game compared to if it was just automatic. It would be better to just simply focus on other techniques that require more timing like wave dashing (although the timing on that is easy), various combos, or techniques like SHLFs.

Also did you know L-cancelling was an official Smash 64 technique=??? On the official site it was listed as a "tip" skill, lol. More proof that Sakurai does have competitive aspects put into smash for those who doubt that he cares about competitive play...

I knew of the last thing. I posted about it earlier. And I think it is. The more skill you have, the more you can do something consistently. Practice makes perfect. Being perfect means having the actual skill to perform correctly. And the problem is, if it's being done automatically, there is absolutely no skill in it whatsoever. Choosing the best options is skillful. "Everybody does it" doesn't make it less skillful. It just makes it overused or a smart option.

I'd call it a skill, because you're not going to get far without it. On both 64 and Melee, I never fail to use this if possible. Now, unless I'm wrong, it benefits laggier characters more than faster ones. The thing about this is that it makes them more viable, which is balance. Removing how it benefits the slower characters, and making it automatic, means the chances it benefits the weaker characters is less in general. I need to look it up, but I think it benefits everyone equally.

@ HyperFalcon
All those campy players need to be punished, and this could be one of many ways to stop it. The problem with Brawl is good defense stops great offense. Personally, I think good offense should beat good defense, but c'mon! At least great offense should be a good defense (assuming you consider "great" better than "good").

The aggressor would control the pace of the aerial to land battle unless the defender:
A. Times out their attack patterns on the aerial attack and counters them with a well-timed grab.
B. Predicts their follow up move or follow up to their aerial attack and either grabs or hits them.
C. Properly spaces.
D. Dodges their aerial attack and any follow up attacks, and then either lands a quick hit or a grab.

To me, that kind of game play would be much more exciting to watch. While I agree the basics of rewards and risks in Melee is better, I think this is more about moving smash in the right direction with defensive and offensive balance, not one game being better than the other. I think a lot of Brawl's defensive additions were excellent, minus several of the defensive features or parts of the defensive system being too good against offense (that is regardless of any techniques, exploits, or bugs in the game).

Right. My key point is that it was too defensive, and harder to punish. Two air dodges was a problem. And you didn't go into a prat fall with them. The thing that made the Air Dodge great in Melee is that you couldn't whip it out at any time outside of Wavedashing, because you'd get punished for it easily. It's too hard to punish mistakes in Brawl compared to the first two games. And I completely agree. I want a game where both the attacker and defender are on equal ground as i they were were playing the same character. Attack = Defense overall. And so on.

y.toonlink · Oct 6, 2011

@Shortie
I can already see those stupid campy spammers using his Heavy attack like Sentinel

If you can tell I like the launcher thingy...

@HyperFalcon
CQC = Close Quarters Combat
I dunno, I'm not here to persuade you but the fact that he uses a rocket launcher like a bat is awesome to me, along with him shooting with it.
Anyway, I didn't say Zero was unique because he uses a sword, just that he fits the fighter character role more than Megaman, a shooter.

Oasis_S · Oct 6, 2011

STARPHOENIX WHERE ARE YOU. Would these be good YOU KNOW WHAT CHOICES should I ever make a Mach Rider stage. Or you in your boredom.

http://youtu.be/RXWE0zEDkik

http://youtu.be/2HrkRbWTlOg

PsychoIncarnate · Oct 6, 2011

Oasis_S said:
STARPHOENIX WHERE ARE YOU. Would these be good YOU KNOW WHAT CHOICES should I ever make a Mach Rider stage. Or you in your boredom.

http://youtu.be/RXWE0zEDkik

http://youtu.be/2HrkRbWTlOg

Star who?

That imaginary person that you used to "quote" from time to time...

Star never existed!

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