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A URC members thoughts on the Metaknight Ban
- Thread starter mikeHAZE
- Start date
SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,371
http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue16/metagame_ou
I know you can't compare these two games but 20% is still 20%
I know you can't compare these two games but 20% is still 20%
Sorto
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2008
- Messages
- 409
@John12346 and @Ripple
AGREED!
Also, f you guys believe that a Meta Knight legal ruleset can be created with rule changes to the LGL, Stages, Timer Length, CPing rules, or any other ruleset changes than post your ideas here. All ideas are welcome.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312904
AGREED!
Also, f you guys believe that a Meta Knight legal ruleset can be created with rule changes to the LGL, Stages, Timer Length, CPing rules, or any other ruleset changes than post your ideas here. All ideas are welcome.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312904
Sorto
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2008
- Messages
- 409
Then perhaps just a lgl and timer/stock change. It is not to fix meta knight, but to fight stalling and running the timer as a viable option. It just relates to MK because he is the best at doing that.
KirbyandSonicrock14
Smash Ace
Look...I like how they went to the guys that run the giant events. I think it's important to have the best of the game weight in. But when you talk to the TO that has to sit there watch and an Mk, Wolve/Phoenix, Yun, SF4 Vanilla Sagat, and V-13 player win all the time. They give a different point of view about what they think about it. True they maybe not be the best, but they are trying to do their part for the community. I think they have a right to say if they think a certain character is ban for being good.
P.S.
I actually know over half the members of the URC. So call them unknowns is a load of crap.
P.S.
I actually know over half the members of the URC. So call them unknowns is a load of crap.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Yeah, and y'know what those FG TOs usually don't say...?
(Barring your brief mention of Smash: )
"I'm sick of x character taking all of the money! I'm tired of seeing that damned so and so win! Let's ban them!"
Well, okay. Maybe they do ***** and moan about top tier characters being janky top tier characters, but they'd never out and out ban a character based on the fact that they're winning a butt-ton of tourneys and a butt-ton of money. There's a reason for that: It's just the way it is. Some characters are just inherently better than others.
Plus, y'know, Smash is kinda different from your standard fare FG.
Smooth Criminal
John12346
Smash Master
Well, keep in mind that in today's age of fighting games, balance patches exist. Wolverine, Phoenix, Yun, and probably V-13(can't find a changelist for Blazblue) are all getting nerfed in future balance patches, and SF4 Sagat WAS nerfed in the transition to SSF4.
Phoenix
Wolverine
Yun
Why would you ban a character if a nerf for broken/overpowered characters would be right around the corner?
Phoenix
Phoenix
- Only one action per jump. No more multiple fireballs, no more fireball into teleport.
*You can do 2 actions per flight mode as it is now longer. You can do Air H Shot into Teleport if you went flight mode first but there is longer start up on H Shots.
- Air H Shot has longer start up and slower recovery. Air M Shot is pretty much the same. Air L Shot has faster recovery.
- Even more reduction in health (like 400K to 350K rough estimate)
- TK Shots dissipate when Phoenix herself is hit
- Only one action per jump. No more multiple fireballs, no more fireball into teleport.
*You can do 2 actions per flight mode as it is now longer. You can do Air H Shot into Teleport if you went flight mode first but there is longer start up on H Shots.
- Air H Shot has longer start up and slower recovery. Air M Shot is pretty much the same. Air L Shot has faster recovery.
- Even more reduction in health (like 400K to 350K rough estimate)
- TK Shots dissipate when Phoenix herself is hit
Wolverine
Wolverine
- Seems to have less health (?)
- Berserker Slash is slower, lost invincibility
- Seems slower overall perhaps to make Berserker Charge more balanced overall
- The Dive Kick has a much smaller hit box, some launchers/anti-air moves beat it out cleanly now
- Contrary to popular belief, Wolverine can still relaunch after a Dive Kick in the air combo the ground bounce may just not work if a dive kick stagger was used to start the initial combo
+/- Some sort of button-mashy Swiss cheese move. He can combo after it with a launcher
+ Berserker Barrage hyper is mashable for more damage
- Seems to have less health (?)
- Berserker Slash is slower, lost invincibility
- Seems slower overall perhaps to make Berserker Charge more balanced overall
- The Dive Kick has a much smaller hit box, some launchers/anti-air moves beat it out cleanly now
- Contrary to popular belief, Wolverine can still relaunch after a Dive Kick in the air combo the ground bounce may just not work if a dive kick stagger was used to start the initial combo
+/- Some sort of button-mashy Swiss cheese move. He can combo after it with a launcher
+ Berserker Barrage hyper is mashable for more damage
Yun
• Target Combo 2 120 damage
• Target Combo 3 120 damage
• Target Combo 4 130 damage, -6 on block for second hit
• Target Combo 5 70 damage
• cr.LK has an upward extended hurtbox
• cr.MP damage from 60 to 50
• Higher high restriction for Raigekishu (dive kick), for LK, MK, and HK (all versions)
• +2 extra frames of hit, block stun on Raigekishu
• Senpukyaku (i’m assuming overhead) from 85 damage to 80 during Gen’ei Jin
• LK, MK, HK Zenpou Tenshin slowed to 11F, EX to 8F
• No throw invincibility on EX Zenpou
• EX Zesshou (lunge) hit distribution changed from 7/2 to 6/3, -1 on block
• MP, HP Kobokushi (palm) meter gain to +20
• LP Koboku is 25 frames total, MP, HP 45 frames total
• MP, HP Koboku damage from 160 to 140, stun from 250 to 200; chip damage for MP, HP to 30
• Active frames for MP, HP Koboku to 10
• Nishoukyaku (up kicks): LK only has invincibility up (and including) the first active frame
• More landing recovery on all versions (including EX)
• MK Nishou from 130 damage to 110
• Tetsuzanko (shoulder): HP damage from 140 to 100, EX from 80+70 to 90+40 (130 total); during the projectile invincible parts of the move, Yun’s hurtbox against physical strikes is expanded
• Gen’ei Jin is a second shorter, does less damage
• Target Combo 3 120 damage
• Target Combo 4 130 damage, -6 on block for second hit
• Target Combo 5 70 damage
• cr.LK has an upward extended hurtbox
• cr.MP damage from 60 to 50
• Higher high restriction for Raigekishu (dive kick), for LK, MK, and HK (all versions)
• +2 extra frames of hit, block stun on Raigekishu
• Senpukyaku (i’m assuming overhead) from 85 damage to 80 during Gen’ei Jin
• LK, MK, HK Zenpou Tenshin slowed to 11F, EX to 8F
• No throw invincibility on EX Zenpou
• EX Zesshou (lunge) hit distribution changed from 7/2 to 6/3, -1 on block
• MP, HP Kobokushi (palm) meter gain to +20
• LP Koboku is 25 frames total, MP, HP 45 frames total
• MP, HP Koboku damage from 160 to 140, stun from 250 to 200; chip damage for MP, HP to 30
• Active frames for MP, HP Koboku to 10
• Nishoukyaku (up kicks): LK only has invincibility up (and including) the first active frame
• More landing recovery on all versions (including EX)
• MK Nishou from 130 damage to 110
• Tetsuzanko (shoulder): HP damage from 140 to 100, EX from 80+70 to 90+40 (130 total); during the projectile invincible parts of the move, Yun’s hurtbox against physical strikes is expanded
• Gen’ei Jin is a second shorter, does less damage
Why would you ban a character if a nerf for broken/overpowered characters would be right around the corner?
mikeHAZE
Smash Legend
...the community didn't make the patch, Capcom did. That's not comparable.
What you are implying is clearly Nintendo will not release a patch, so it's the communities job to patch and fix the game. Yet the correct "patch" would be an actual modification in game play and not a rule set change.
aka every brawl mod.
What you are implying is clearly Nintendo will not release a patch, so it's the communities job to patch and fix the game. Yet the correct "patch" would be an actual modification in game play and not a rule set change.
aka every brawl mod.
Right. They will actually do it to Akuma in HDR who isn't even doing these things.
Let's hypothetically say MK was bannable without a doubt: Would you rather hack Brawl and attempt to balance it rather than ban MK?
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
I hate that argument. Hes easy to pick up but hard to master, how the hell does anyone know that??? How many people have picked up MK and mastered him, and at the same time ALSO mastered another character so they can say "yea MK was harder." I don't honestly believe that almost anyone has mastered any character and the very few that might have also just happen to be extraordinary players who for all we know might not have REALLY mastered him and just played him for a while and be really good and if your really good AND play MK you will probably top at most nationals.
Also Ken and Yun are NOT hard to pick up. I am really close buddies with a high level streetfighter player (who also is a high level player at like 5 other games) he has told me many times that ALL of the top tiers in 3rd strike are easy to play at high levels.
I am also one of those people that is very skeptical of how much MU's change at high levels compared to top levels. This is not to be confused with mid and lower levels but at high levels is Snake REALLY that much different than at top? I don't think so. Snake becomes hard once ur opponent learn to juggle him which happens at midlevel to high level play I don't really think there is that much difference.
M@v
Subarashii!
Ban mk, mainly because the issue on how to balance the game properly would cause much more debate and gridlock. In addition, trying to make a hacked version of a game standard for a community is near impossible.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
That's the exception, AZ. Not the rule. And if you actually paid attention to the whole ordeal, the guy who helped redo the whole game recommended that they ban Akuma on the account that he wasn't balanced properly. Note the key words emphasized in the italicized text. Hilde and Algol from SC4 didn't win a whole bunch of tourneys in their lifespan either, but they were banned because the community at large found out that they were busted (Hilde's "doom combo").
This is also what happens when you cherrypick certain things and address them.
Try again.
Smooth Criminal
I'm not really sure there can be an 'exception' when the number of characters banned in fighting games over the last 20 years numbers less than what? 5? Maybe 10?
Also, correct, a single person is what got Akuma banned simply because he wasn't functioning as he imagined, which is ironic, since that same person wrote a guide saying designers intent is essentially meaningless. Whether or not the character wasn't balanced or functioning as he should, there was evidence he had even match ups and there was also a lack of evidence of tournament dominance, much less the type of dominance that Sirlin tries to claim is necessary for a ban (aka compelling data over a long period). He basically betrayed his own advice in getting the character banned, and it is that very advice everyone loves to rely on for banning criteria!
Also, correct, a single person is what got Akuma banned simply because he wasn't functioning as he imagined, which is ironic, since that same person wrote a guide saying designers intent is essentially meaningless. Whether or not the character wasn't balanced or functioning as he should, there was evidence he had even match ups and there was also a lack of evidence of tournament dominance, much less the type of dominance that Sirlin tries to claim is necessary for a ban (aka compelling data over a long period). He basically betrayed his own advice in getting the character banned, and it is that very advice everyone loves to rely on for banning criteria!
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
I'm not polejocking Sirlin in the slightest. I could care less for his ethos. I just don't feel that overcentralization is a strong argument in the case of a character ban. There are other more important factors that need to be addressed above all else, and I wish you and your motley crew would focus on that rather than the money and the placement in tourneys. It makes you appear very petty.
Smooth Criminal
Smooth Criminal
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
Overcentralization is actually a fairly weak argument.
Granted if it honestly improves character diversity it might possibly have been warranted. But everything seems to indicate this wont be the case. We wont know for sure until we start getting information on tournaments without MK, but his ban should be reconsidered if diversity doesnt show much improvement.
Granted if it honestly improves character diversity it might possibly have been warranted. But everything seems to indicate this wont be the case. We wont know for sure until we start getting information on tournaments without MK, but his ban should be reconsidered if diversity doesnt show much improvement.
-Ran
Smash Master
At the moment, the limited [21] tournaments are tending [substantially] towards more character diversity. I am looking forward to more data to see if this is a sustainable trend.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
fixed that for you
mikeHAZE
Smash Legend
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD11l3omQzM
Here is the next video in the series
Metaknight Banned - The Facts.
Enjoy.
Here is the next video in the series
Metaknight Banned - The Facts.
Enjoy.
KageMurphy
Smash Master
Quoted because this video goes hard as **** yo. Exposing Johnnumbers Bull**** data and telling it like it is for competative gaming, too good.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
blindly following mike.Quoted because this video goes hard as **** yo. Exposing Johnnumbers Bull**** data and telling it like it is for competative gaming, too good.
what a shame
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
KageMurphy
Smash Master
Or you know, watched the video when he put it on facebook, agreed and commented.
Blindly assuming, what a shame.
Dang, mike you gotta get some pictures and stuff for your videos. Its boring just staring at you talk. You could do so much more with the visuals.
I agree about people leaving/joining the scene. That goes for the popular anti ban statement that MK mains will quit and tournaments will be smaller. For the most part, players gonna play and quitters gonna quit.
I agree about people leaving/joining the scene. That goes for the popular anti ban statement that MK mains will quit and tournaments will be smaller. For the most part, players gonna play and quitters gonna quit.
Dr. Tuen
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2009
- Messages
- 1,396
- 3DS FC
- 0559-7294-8323
"Exposing" the data for what it really is, eh?
All I see is an untrained view on data analysis. 19% is significant with respect to the character spread we have going here. There are 36 characters. Even if you consider 10 to be viable, a 19% representation of one character is statistically significant. I don't even have to bust out some fancy statistical software to know that.
You also attack John Numbers for his analytical methods. You didn't like how he split the money between characters. Have you considered the work necessary to correct the assumption you are attacking? You would need to have each player's frequency-of-use statistics for each separate event he attended to fully correct that assumption. I don't know about you, but I know that would be way too much work for one guy to do.
Herk. I almost want to freaking leave work early to get back to work on my project here.
I'm looking to bring up a year's worth of tournament results for an analysis which will bring this uninformed bickering to an end. I don't have a release date, but please look forward to it.
All I see is an untrained view on data analysis. 19% is significant with respect to the character spread we have going here. There are 36 characters. Even if you consider 10 to be viable, a 19% representation of one character is statistically significant. I don't even have to bust out some fancy statistical software to know that.
You also attack John Numbers for his analytical methods. You didn't like how he split the money between characters. Have you considered the work necessary to correct the assumption you are attacking? You would need to have each player's frequency-of-use statistics for each separate event he attended to fully correct that assumption. I don't know about you, but I know that would be way too much work for one guy to do.
Herk. I almost want to freaking leave work early to get back to work on my project here.
I'm looking to bring up a year's worth of tournament results for an analysis which will bring this uninformed bickering to an end. I don't have a release date, but please look forward to it.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
This would be so much easier if every tournament used matchslips. It's really a damn shame Dazwa didn't do anything with all the matchslips that Genesis gave him.
He ****ing got 6. WTF Genesis?
He ****ing got 6. WTF Genesis?
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
mike what are your thoughts of 75% of players voting for the ban? While its true I doubt banning mk will bring back new players do you really feel that the community as a whole shouldn't follow an overwhelming majority?
even the reputable players list leaned toward the banning of metaknight.
while I 100% agree with the points your video made I don't think you brought up every valid argument against the banning of metaknight.
even the reputable players list leaned toward the banning of metaknight.
while I 100% agree with the points your video made I don't think you brought up every valid argument against the banning of metaknight.
Battousai780
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2006
- Messages
- 542
Your argument that 1/5 is significant and over centralizing is LAUGHABLE. lol
But seriously, you are implying that even though we know that Ripple's method for calculating prize winnings is horribly skewed, we should still abide by it because finding the actual number is really hard. Are you dumb?
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
No one cares about statistical signficance but you, lol. He even asked the audience to create their own criteria for how much too much was knowing most people would agree, he didnt say anything regarding statistical significance and in the end it doesnt matter.
As I said in the other thread, innaccurate date is innaccurate no matter how difficult it is to obtain the information we really want. You can applaud the effort but you cant sugarcoat the weakness. It sounds like youre desiring the information to be something it isnt, which is baaaad.
Battousai780
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2006
- Messages
- 542
Yeah, watch the video.
I personally don't care about what percentage of the community uses MK. Over-centralization isn't really a factor imo. If something is unfair, it should be banned if 50% of the community abuses it or if 1% of the community abuses it. How many people abused lack of LGLs before they were standard? How many people scrooge now when there is no standard rule about it? Almost no one, but it doesn't mean those things should be left alone. MK should be banned based simply on his capabilities and what he CAN do to the game.
It's not in the video... He says 11% and then laughs and then looks at Ripple's data???
mikeHAZE
Smash Legend
You realise that was a miscalculation yea?
lol
Ussi
Smash Legend
Yea later on he recalculates it because Rajam's chart was missing 1000 people or so (or something)