Final Fantasy Tactics Mafia: Game finally over! Raziek lynched, Town wins! Lego too!

Rajam · Feb 27, 2012

(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:) said:
Red Ruy, you should be reading. If not, you should be thinking. Regardless, you should be providing. Give me information, indulge me with your thoughts.

Rajam, I see you viewing, give me a lynch pool. We're going to work on this, you're a town bro. Also, mimic us tonight, you'll love it.

Gotta make dinner now (and eat it). I'll be back later. Sword, if you're reading this, post the list and give us a clear conclusion to top it off. We're NOT getting lynched today by a scumgoggling Ryker without proper arguments. If we are lynched, do NOT let him lynch Kantrip tomorrow.

1: Inferno. Initial case I did on D2 is still up. Claims + my Night actions also lead to Inferno being the one who targeted Gheb with the execute. Another case will be incoming.

2: Red Ryu. Hasn't done anything, and his few attempts of scumhunting are lacking and I don't see town intention in those attempts. Meta also adds since the times I've seen RR scum is when he doesn't do anything

3: Orboknown. Hasn't done anything as well, lack of disconnections with other players, and haven't got noob town vibes from him like I do with Seph / Sangfroid.

That's my current lynch pool. I'll also lynch only if it comes to it (aka a lynch needs to happen and there is no time):

4: Gova. Null read. Despite my results indicate he wasn't the one tageting Gheb with the execute, it doesn't mean I think he is clear.

5: Lego. Null read. Slightly, slightly town but more null-ish.

Orboknown · Feb 27, 2012

Red Ryu said:
Glyph.

What changed from here to making a shot on him?

asking glyph's thought process, which lego asked for iirc, or someone did.

Red Ryu said:
I read the whole thread.

Nich hopped on against anyone who went against him during this game. Votes on Gheb an Ryker confirm this. Tried using self meta as an excuse with tunneling. From here it's leading into a pit of OMGUS and

Lynch is warranted.

Dislike T-Block slot more so for the comment about Nickle.

Rajam is being intentional from all this I believe, he needs to die.

I still disliked Ryker's earlier speculation.

I think it was at the time, but I like you more than Nich so yeah.

Rajam and Nich for scum.
Gova and Gheb for town.

general reads at the time, repeating points others have made(nich and self meta, tblock wrt me).

Red Ryu said:
What changed it for you?

Red Ryu said:
Ok, then why was he a town read before the argument?

asking glyph's process still.

Red Ryu said:
This would all be null anyways.

Red Ryu said:
Posting proof that you wrote it earlier means nothing, the moment you admit it, all ways to analyze it as town or scum is thrown out the window because you did it with no alignment before the replace in.

You did it with innocence which is why anything from before you replaced in is technically not useful for looking at your play in that slot.

standard comments on kantrips notes.non-indicative of alignment.

Red Ryu said:
I'm pretty sure town cares if they can.

general statement.

Red Ryu said:
Tomorrow morning sure.

didn't get to this from what i saw.

Red Ryu said:
Ryker tl;dr.

not reading one of ryker's walls about nich.

Red Ryu said:
Those things hurt.

I can't take him being a cop seriously either with how he handled himself. His play is too bad to make me believe it along with what he is asking to do to confirm it.

general statement then saying nich shouldn't live. if this wasn't everyone's thoughts at the time could be a scumtell.

Red Ryu said:
Ryker your terrible at everything, quit life please

Dislike Kantrip more than anyone, gonna quite when I'm not going to bed/writing a program.

Not certain on Ryker v Gheb but

@Rajam: don't use that as reasoning, it screams past game salt. And I should know better seeing as how I was in MMX and replaced into his slot in another game after him pushing off himself got a cop lynched.

Use his current play, not past meta unless you show a pattern.

want'sto lynch kantrip, then followed up with his "case".

Red Ryu said:
I'm still of the opinion Kantrip should be the play today.

Reading my interaction with him is enough to sell it for me.

Here is me questioning why Kantrip takes to heart with the notes he made before he got his role PM, because there is no point in positing notes before he got his role PM since it can easily be posted by either alignment, rather giving hard stances an commitment are better for analyzing it.

Then I get.

That we can't read you? That doesn't make sense to me from a town perspective.

I ask again why posting the notes is worth it at all outside of showing Kantrip had read the game.

This doesn't answer anything I asked him so I make it clear.

So then,

Bolded is a scum tell to me.

Town certainly cares how well that can read him like I said before.

As I said before.

I dislike T-Blocks slot for holding similar problems to Orboknown in how fast T-Block jumped onto him for the same reasons Nich did.

Vote: Kantrip

Don't care for his claim either since I can early call him Weigraf as a holy knight.

bad kantrip case revolving aroun d kantrip saying he shouldn't be easy to read.

Red Ryu said:
A lot of Glyphs responses are looking like strawmans at certain points and others don;t seem to tackle the issue at hand that Legolas is saying.

saying glyph is ignoring legolas, which he really wasn't.

Red Ryu said:
Ehhh...not really.

commenting on my vote on glyph. while he read my intention right, not sure if it means anything.

Red Ryu said:
Hey Inferno, what do you think of Kantrip?

asking for a read on someone he wants dead.

Red Ryu said:
It's from in the middle of your #896 as an example.

It didn't address how people felt about your random change in reads which also resulted in the gambit at the time. You said he was solid town but then why even try the gambit.

I don't understand why it needed to be done on someone you found to be town and what specifically happened to change it.

That was my issue yesterday.

more asking glyph about nich.

Red Ryu said:
Damn it, gonna read all that in a sec Glyph.

Everyone is posting like EE and J this game dang it.

complaining about walls.

geez im gonna take a break and get food or something,

(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:) · Feb 27, 2012

Gheb's going to explain why we're scum in an orderly fashion and I'll fight him on it.

Ryker too.

I'll reply and read the recent replies after dinner.

Inferno3044 · Feb 27, 2012

I await your case Rajam. Also please make sure that you have why, as scum, I would attract massive attention to myself plus claim the night action I did.

~ Gheb ~ · Feb 27, 2012

(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:) said:
Gheb, what do you think about a Raziek claim?

Full claim? Not toDay.

~ Gheb ~ · Feb 27, 2012

(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:) said:
Gheb's going to explain why we're scum in an orderly fashion and I'll fight him on it.

Can't tell if you're trolling now or not. Not gonna explain the same old a 3rd time just because you're not reading my posts or act like my points have lost their validity - you didn't reply to them yet.

DtJ Glyphmoney · Feb 27, 2012

Raziek said:
Can you explain what your intent with that was, Glyph?

Were you telling the truth or was that, yet again, a gambit?

I was telling the truth with that action. I didn't see that Chemist couldn't be roleblocked, much less that Gova had crumbed that he was a Chemist. I figured I had scum pinned since the only thing that could have gone through was a factional night kill, which would have put Gova as scummy as they come.

But jesus I have no idea who I want to lynch today. Kantrip I still think is grody, RR (was my mystery person, I quoted him the same post I first mentioned it but then you guys had to go and spoil all my fun) is still a good pick, and Rajam is just a mess too.

Legolas I am the least sold on actually. I don't believe his case was designed to generate pressure and he knew it was bad from the start. No, I think he thought he really had me pinned and was pushing it on bad points. If that's what he was trying to accomplish, kudos. I think him trying to say it was a bad case from the start is more him trying to save face than look town.

~ Gheb ~ · Feb 27, 2012

Orbo what conclusions do you draw from what Ryu posted?

Rajam · Feb 27, 2012

Inferno3044 said:
I'll map out my logic for you:

-Ryker and Gheb are in their own special vote in which one of them will die.
-Both of these people were seen as town generally by the end of D1.
-Therefore scum visited Gheb.
-I visited Gheb last night.
-In conclusion the other person who visited Gheb was the one to set the vote on him aka you Gova.

DtJ Glyphmoney said:
So would that mean someone visited both Ryker and Gheb last night?

Inferno3044 said:
That's what I think it is.

Would like to add that I strongly think that the execute counts as a visit too. The setup is very "redirecting" which makes me think that way

~ Gheb ~ · Feb 27, 2012

Pretty sure it's not a visiting role fwiw

(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:) · Feb 27, 2012

Gheb_01 said:
Because it lines up with all the issues I had with you all game. It's not like I didn't openly voice why I dislike you during almost the entire game, is it? It's just that I couldn't clearly find a scum / anti-town intent between your lack of genuine, fresh input and your constant hydra johns. Out of context those are all null-tells. But within the new context - you directly interfering a promising exchange - I can see the more sinister side of what you've been doing so far.

All the issues.

Let's see what I can highlight.

So
- Lack of genuine, fresh input
- Constant hydra johns
- Couldn't see sinister side, but you can now

- Putting a stop to discussion (iirc?)

- Lack of genuine, fresh input
When you preach a lack of genuine, fresh input, I beg to differ. However, this point will be permanently remedied soon.

- Constant hydra johns
Constant hydra johns is a hyperbole and should be anti-town if anything.

- Couldn't see sinister side, but you can now
The fact that you're seeing the "sinister side" only proves that it's your perception that's doing this, but if you have concrete scummy things, please do point it out.

- Putting a stop to discussion (iirc?)
And I remember you saying we were putting a stop to discussion or something similar. Well, I'd love to see you back that one up besides that one post I made, which I explained.

(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:) · Feb 27, 2012

DtJ Glyphmoney said:
I was telling the truth with that action. I didn't see that Chemist couldn't be roleblocked, much less that Gova had crumbed that he was a Chemist. I figured I had scum pinned since the only thing that could have gone through was a factional night kill, which would have put Gova as scummy as they come.

But jesus I have no idea who I want to lynch today. Kantrip I still think is grody, RR (was my mystery person, I quoted him the same post I first mentioned it but then you guys had to go and spoil all my fun) is still a good pick, and Rajam is just a mess too.

Legolas I am the least sold on actually. I don't believe his case was designed to generate pressure and he knew it was bad from the start. No, I think he thought he really had me pinned and was pushing it on bad points. If that's what he was trying to accomplish, kudos. I think him trying to say it was a bad case from the start is more him trying to save face than look town.

Red Ruy, this guy is NOT getting lynched. Disregarding his paragraph about our slot, I don't see scum in here at all. I mirror his sentiments in being unsure on the lynch, because, as I said before, I have no hard reads at the moment, and it's disturbing.

Red Ruy, you too, lynch pool, now. Concrete stances/evidence to back them up. If it's only Glyph, you better have a damn good explanation as to why he is scum and as to why we should lynch him.

Rajam · Feb 27, 2012

Inferno3044 said:
I await your case Rajam. Also please make sure that you have why, as scum, I would attract massive attention to myself plus claim the night action I did.

How have you attracted massive attention to yourself??

Also, I've seen scum-frozenflame motivating OS (from a opposing alignment) in Fire Emblem Mafia, so don't think that your haste action obeys only a town motivation. It isn't even ascertainable. Why did you pick Gheb anyways for doing that? Why did you pick a role that hastens pre-game? Wouldn't it only help scum to be faster than priests / bodyguards? How is changing NAR pro-town, at least, more pro-town than other roles?

Your claim is hard to corroborate, and would require Gheb claiming. You were already cornered when Raziek claimed at the beginning of D2; if you knew the other person who visited Gheb was the scummy one, why wait so long to claim, after Gova? Wouldn't it have been better to claim asap you were one of the visitors, so forcing Raziek to claim who was the other visitor (the scum) asap, hence giving the scum few time to prepare an adequate "fake" claim? Why wait to claim after Gova, if your hastening action isn't relevant at all regarding who claims first (it doesn't help to detect a lie)?

(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:) · Feb 27, 2012

Rajam on the same line of thought as me, though I occam'd it into a town. Fair reasoning though.

Orboknown · Feb 27, 2012

Gheb_01 said:
Orbo what conclusions do you draw from what Ryu posted?

from what ive gotten up to, he is looking scummy to a degree. not sure if lynch-material for sure, but not the worst candidate.
mainly trying to decide who to execute in addition to our lynch.

(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:) · Feb 27, 2012

Gheb_01 said:
Full claim? Not toDay.

Full role. Character don't matter to me at this moment.

Still disagree if I told you it will likely confirm his as town or as scum?

(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:) · Feb 27, 2012

Raziek, you're viewing. Contribute for god's sake. You've contributed NOTHING the ENTIRE DAY except your watcher shenanigans.

contriboot

Raziek · Feb 27, 2012

I'm re-reading. I won't be claiming. Working on a larger post with thoughts on the playerlist right now.

(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:) · Feb 27, 2012

Orboknown said:
from what ive gotten up to, he is looking scummy to a degree. not sure if lynch-material for sure, but not the worst candidate.
mainly trying to decide who to execute in addition to our lynch.

Proper read list, now. You're looking tempting to lynch, so you better put some effort into it.

Orboknown · Feb 27, 2012

sigh.
when im not studying for my english midterm(aka in like, an hour and a half)

(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:) · Feb 27, 2012

Orboknown, (2 sides)

Xonar - This guy is a real pain to read. I am quick to give the noob card and I am definitely giving it here again. One could get at him for using "like" instead of "town" or "annoyed by this" instead of "scummy", but with the consistency at which he is doing it I doubt that he does that to keep his options open.

Posts of interest:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14043053&postcount=65
If he was scum, wouldn't he go and tell this to his partner instead of "publically noting" it?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14060425&postcount=273
" Nich:Tunneling me for three posts or something like that, the gheb and raziek interactions. Scummy leaning i guess but veryy slight."
As a noob scummy, why would he give this stance? If he knew that Nich was town he would probably go for a town read, would he want a mislynch he wouldn't make it a "veryy slight" scum lean. It makes sense to give this read as a noob town.

These are some posts that show good honesty which I like:
D1:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14041860&postcount=48
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14042202&postcount=56
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14043114&postcount=70
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14043128&postcount=73
D2:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14122074&postcount=1069

To support scum though, I'd like to pull a quote from Rajam.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14078523&postcount=707

Sworddancer: Tbph I am not convinced at all by Xonar's interpretation of Orboknow's posts. The thing is is that I feel like Orboknown has been going with the flow all game, and has been posting carefully. This is evidenced by several things. 1. His general lack of activity. 2. When he does post reads his analysis is shallow, often times basing a read off of someone for a rather lame and/or irrelvent reasons. On top of that his reads are often just leans, making it seem to me that he doesn't want to commit himself fully. I acknowledge the PoV that all of this is Orboknown simply not really knowing what to do as town and not being very confident in his abilities, so in the end while I may not call him total scum I will call him null-scum until I see more genuine commitment on his behalf.

In the end, I conclude that reading him is a crapshot, but if I had to pick his alignment right now I'll say scum.

Conclusion:
What it comes down to is which side of the crapshoot you pick. We talked about it and it all comes down to how you view it. His inactivity doesn't help either.

Inferno,

Let's start with Inferno's D1 play.
The first thing that stands out to me is him being set on lynching Rajam the entire day. prenote: This does not come back into D2 at all, where he goes full focus on his night actions.

Let's pull some D1 posts
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14050957&postcount=170
He is okay with dying, but as soon as Nich get's pressured, this is his main response:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14052606&postcount=196
Which eventually builds into him not liking a Nich lynch.

From what I remember Inferno said, "[Nich's] town play ... is pretty transparent."
Then why was he fine with him dying and not so much later on?

Nich asks him this.
Comes down to
Why is my response bad?
Are your pushes opportunistic?

To which he answered:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14063831&postcount=345
Which is basically admitting that it has been opportunistic and uncomittal. "I barely pushed you, but I'm fine with you dying". (even though in 196 he retconned and hasn't liked Nich as a lynch) (1)
[hint: his other gut read that was bad feeling is T-Block]

So far, a fair summary would be
- Focus on Rajam
- Scummy handling of Nich overall
- Switching to T-Block, the other flavor of the day
-> Opportunistic

Three easy picks.

D2 has just been straight out disgusting.
(almost?) Everything has been working up to the night action stuff, which almost makes me believe he is town.
I can link them all, but that'd be a time sink. He literally fished for the results and as soon as they were out he said "Vote: Gova

I was the other person who visited Gheb and I hasted him."
After that, all he did was defend his logic.

The only real comments so far were these
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14122832&postcount=1081
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14123249&postcount=1085

Which is a statement followed by a backpedal. Null statement for as far as I can see.

His D1 play has been extremely convenient, but his D2 play has me overanalyzing.

[He seems genuinely convinced that one of the two visiters is scum. He want fast and hard on Gova. Now should he be scum, he would know Gova would flip town and get lynched afterwards. His only escape here would be Raziek.

It could also be that he, as scum, was simply expecting town to go after one of the visitors, which means he had to take the upper hand and claim first.

However, should he be scum and targetted [Gheb/Ryker/anyone] for the night kill, it could've been an indy that changed it into an execution scenario. ]

For town, it makes more sense with less speculation. He simply used his incomplete reasoning to push his ideas of having found a scum, which he focused on the entire day, which adds to the idea of him believing that a scum visitted.

So by occum's razor, we are seeing Town in Inferno. His D1 play hasn't been that good, but seeing his D2 play as anything other than town is pretty reachy.

Honestly, we're not too sure about why one would use HASTE on Gheb on N1, but feel that it is for the best to leave that be currently.

Conclusion: We don't trust Inferno at all, but he can be part of the townies.

Red Ruy (2 sides)

Xonar:

Red Ruy on D1 can be categorized into 4 categories + a post.

These are:
Early game interaction with Ryker about Ryker's early game.
Interaction with Glyph about the shot and why the Nich read changed.
(recap post with opinions)
Interaction with Kantrip about town wanting to get read.
Viewpoint on Ryker's case.

Viewpoint on Ryker's case is pretty fruitless. Besides agreeing and disagreeing, the only useful thing I got out of it is
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14081624&postcount=733
"100% support Kantrip lynch tomorrow."

His interaction with Kantrip is pretty null from both sides imo, and the fact that he pushed Kantrip based on it is dumb or scum.

His interaction with Glyph was actually pretty town in my opinion. He was sharp noticing that Glyph did a gambit while his read was different. It was a good point from Red Ruy. Town lean on that.

His interaction with Ryker was once again sharp and, while I think his view of Ryker in the ordeal was wrong, I think the remark was good. Town lean on that.

Lose post is his 440. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14070664&postcount=440

I like his consistency. He's been keeping these up for as far as I know. I also like how he's not afraid to make stances. He's been sharp and pointed out things that moved forward. From D1, I can definitely see town RR.

On to D2.

Here I have 4 categories:
Kantrip
Glyph
Sharp remarks
Miscallenous cuz i suck at spelling that word.

Kantrip is absolutely terrible.
He starts by saying he dislikes Kantrip most, and follows up with a case based on his interaction with Kantrip yesterday, but it seemed like a honest push. (1)http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14100764&postcount=892

Red Ryu said:
I got something for ya regarding your interaction with Nich in a sec.

I'd love to hear more about this.

Red Ruy vs Kantrip reads as a honest TvT to me.

Red Ruy vs Glyph isn't that special. He repeats points I raised which he noticed before, it is consistent and by no means a pure sheep. He used one of the more fair points my case against Glyph had.

Few sharp questions here
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14105203&postcount=964
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14110977&postcount=1022

Miscalelaeoijsdus.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14105260&postcount=967
Hard stance, like it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14123314&postcount=1090
This readlist I don't even know what to think about. I disagree with his reads and I can see how he can be scum, who can not scumhunt, thus latches on to things like Kantrip/Glyph's ordeals, then sticks with them. On the other hand, besides disagreeing with his reads, he looks town to me.

Red Ryu said:
I'm gonna reread Gheb and Ryker tomorrow.

That need to be sorted out at some point.

Eagerly waiting for this.

I can see Red Ruy as town, but our disagreement on reads has me doubting it.

Sworddancer:

Did not like RR's first post coming into the game (119). Complete irrelvant from actual discussion. -.25

RR's 186 is also pretty lame and irrelvent to discussion, even with explanation. "Push " on Ryker is generic. -.25.

RR 436 is a legit question. +25.

RR's read list in his 440 seems legit enough but I is unoriginal so I can't give him town points for that. Don't like that he gave a read list but didn't commit to a vote. -.25

RR page 12 (40 ppp) isn't really anything worth mentioning. I can see why he was pressuring Glyph to explain himself more but ultimately it didn't really lead anywhere (glyph's fault mroe than RR's). Otherwise RR's just having some token bickering against Kantrip that I can't take anything out of.

RR page 19 is nothing more than him agreeing to Ryker's case. Like the fact that he disagrees on at least ONE of Ryker's post, seems more genuine that way. Bad reasoning for not believing Nich cop. Overall seems more sheepish than anything. -.25

End day 1. Overall RR feeling unimpressive.

RR 845 restating suspicion against Kantrip but doesn't really go into nor has he yet.

RR case in his 889 is TRERRIBLE, even from the "RR is bad at reading people" perspective. -.5

RR page 24 is again consistent with earlier suspicion of Glyph. +.25.

RR gives an open stance on Gova and asks a sharp question on page 25. +.25.

Disagree with RR in his 1030 but I can see things from his pov.

RR's reads in his 1190 worry me. The town reads mostly seem okay but his pushes don't sell me (and yes I'm aware that he was agreeing with our attack on Glyph). -.25.

Can see Xonar's point about RR being open. +.5.

End Day 2 so far, liking RR more.

Overall, his Day 1 was BAD. It consisted nothing but him being irrelavant and sheeping the Nich wagon. His Day two is looking better, as he actually seems to be scumhunting a little bit now. Still not much and his pushes are very . . . meh . . . to me. Would like him to give opinions on people of interest more in relation to modern events more. Overall scum lean.

Rajam,

I don't think Rajam needs a lot of explanation. Rajam hasn't been posting much but I definitely like what he did post. Good stances, good scumhunting.

Question for Rajam: What did you mean by the numbers in your read list on D1?

Town, but want more posts definitely.

Sang,

Once again, doesn't need a lot of explanation. Hasn't had an awful lot of posts but really easy to see how she is town. Town.

Glyph,

I've talked about this man a lot. My dislike lies in his lack of stances and the fact that his scumhunting has been lackluster. But looking at his overall intent and feeling I get, his posts just tend to scream town at this point. It's a conflict between gut and face value for me. There's something inside me saying this guy can't be scum.
I guess that Glyph's fluff isn't really a tell for him, but that it really is just his style of talking. I'm still kinda worried but his switch in stances from frustered town Nich to scum Nich, as that seems kinda oppertunistic, but nevertheless I CAN see where he was coming from with that... sorta. Overall Day 1 play seems too relaxed for scum and his gambits read townie, while results may lack.

Gova (2 sides)

Xonar:

Ugh. Gova. He gives me a bad feeling. Not to mention, I think Raziek's case is fair and Gova's answers are lacking.
Something that's mainly bothering me is his complete lack of stances. He has a town on Ryker, sure. He didn't even have a concrete stance on Nich. His list is as uncommittal as can be and when I asked him who deserves pressure he answered "people who I think are scum".
Did anyone even notice that the only vote he has cast all game was on Nich? Nich! And he even said he had to, and Nich was flavor of the day etc etc.

Gova slot worries me. Don't know if it's enough to count him as scum, but we're definitely wary of him.

Sworddancer:

Just RVS stuff on page 1, nothing relevant.

Gova 113 legit question to TB as well as a legit point in his 115. +.25.

Am okay with Gova's 254. Seems genuine for him to start to change his opinion there for that reasoning unprovked. +.25.

I don't like how Gova hasn't voted yet in his 257 despite having stated suspicion against TB. -.25.

Gova's 412 makes legit points but ugh not really actually taking a stance there. -.25.

Despite Gova's 416 being almost complete meta I believe I can understand his mindset on the matter, so I'm fine with it.

Normally would think that Gova was being suspiciously sheepy on page 15 due to how he jumped onto the Nich wagon despite the fact that he wasn't completely sold on it, but given how Nich was basically condemned at that point and considering his role I can understand it.

End Day 1. Individually I'm mostly okay with Gova's post, but looking at the big picture he really didn't take a solid stance like Raz said. I remember in one of his posts he stated that he was going to look into the people who "sheeped" the Nich wagon without any original content, but I do not recall him doing this yet. Not liking him so far.

Gova finally gives some scum reads in his 941. Not terribly impressive. He's posting a lot more but it's not that relevant. Just responded to Night action stuff and Inferno's accusation of him.

Then the rest is basically just gova calling Glyph and us dumb for outing his role and stopping the Glyph conversation. Null.

So yeah, overall don't get scum vibes from Gova's posts themselfes but I do not like his general lack of stances until pushed. Would pretty much agree with Xonar here in not calling him scum but instead simply being very wary of him.

Ryker,

We overall have a good Ryker town lead. He's been progressing the game and playing his general Ryker town game. we don't have any idea how he is scum at this moment, and we have been giving no reason to doubt him yet.
There's been occasions where he's actively seeking to understand the mindsets of other players et cetera. This is town Ryker, not a lot of doubt left there.

Kantrip:

Kantrip's entry into this game is of course null since he did take those notes before he got his role pm.

Kantrip 636 and 637 are where Kantrip takes his case against Nich. I think that say that Kantrip is scum trying to gain townie points upon a Nich mislynch is nothing but an assumption. Hasn't proposed an alternative lynch at this point but seems open to it, and has actually provided reasoning as to why he believed Nich was town (thought Nich was just being anti-town and not scummy, which seems believable). Kantrip actively taking a stance that was bound to be unpopular definitely reads townie to me. +.5

Kantrip seems to be legit scumhunting page 17 with his questions and stances. I think his effort is genuine. LOL at his interactions with Ryker that page knowing what I know now. I won't take any WIFOM out of that but I still think it's worth pointing out (and humorous).

End Day 1. Overall didn't like TB's play but Kantrip's reeks of towniness. Do wish he pushed his scumpicks harder though. Don't really see this as an "attempt to appeal to everyone" like Gheb states as so much Kantrip giving honest reads.

939 seems a bit over defensive. -.25.

940 and 948 make legit points.

Kantrip 1155 makes a legit wrt to what we did in thread at the time. Get give point either way for these last two points but they're still cool.

1162-1165 again our examples of Kantrip doing legit scumhunting and being open with stances. +25.

1219 sets up for 1229 in a grimy way. Seems unnatural. Do not like. -.25.

Overall feel that Kantrip vs. Ryker was very OMGUS on Kantrip's part. Not a terribly townie way to deal with it but not scummy either. It's consistent with my point earlier about Kantrip putting himself in risky positions. Null.

Taking Kantrip's Night actionm speculation as null as well.

Overall feel that it's much more likely we are dealing with town Kantrip here than scum Kantrip. I have witnessed several examples of Kantrip trying to scumhunt and actually read people, and often times I find what Kantrip is being attacked for is either an assumption or simply a misrepresentation of his actions. Plus, really I know you guys hate meta but Kantrip really is just being way too antagonistic to be scum.

Gheb:

Null on his page 1 posts. Want to say arm chair critic but given the context that the Day just started I don't think I can call him out on that. Legit points made by him during this time.

Good call out on Inferno in his 59. Otherwise pretty much the same as his page 1 posts.

Gheb 121 again legit but still stays consistent with my concerns of him occasionally playing the armchair critic. Again given the context I can see why he would say that there.

Fair call out by Gheb in his 153 of TB. +.25.

Don't really think it's logical for Gheb to of made to assumption that Orboknown was "insecure" in his 154. Believe attack on Nich was deliberately exaggerated for pressure. Still to determine rather or not Nich lynch should of went through from what happened.

Gheb 179 fair since Nich misrepresented his case. Still think it's an exaggeration to call Nich scum based on him pressuring Orboknown.

I think Raz's red flag was fair and I don't get what Gheb doesn't like about it.

Page 7 Gheb really is considering other options instead on just Nich like he said toDay. Do like. +.5.

Don't like that Gheb got on our nuts starting on 321 just because we had the same reads as everyone else and thus not "strong." Idk what he expects out of us so early in the game. -.25.

@Gheb 336: Obviously he was making a big deal out of it because you attacked him for it. >.>

Actually don't like Gheb's response to us in his 383 just because of his backpedel on the Nich scum read after Nich was "shot" by Glyph. I don't think he had any reason to withdraw having Nich as his #1 scum read at the time and the timing seems convenient. -.25.

Gheb pages 12 and 13 null. Simply agreeing that Nich should die and that he likes Ryker's case, really.

I was under the false impression that Gheb was a major contributor to the Nich wagon. I see now that he more or less started it, but it was really Ryker and pushed it. So I take back my accusation that Gheb might of been exaggerating things to lynch Nich.

Gheb's points about Nich's Night abilities are paranoid but understandable.

Gheb 574 and 601 are good, wants to create relevant discussion. +.25.

Gheb page 18 mostly just responding to people. Seems very on top of things in general, just as how he's keeping an eye on everyone (like Raz). +.25.

End Day 1. Overall liking Gheb for keeping his eyes on everyone and generally staying on top of things. Did not tunnel Nich like I was thinking for some reason.

Am actually okay with Gheb's pressure on us on page 22. Mass claim speculation was warranted. Not too big of a deal but overly defensive in his 858.

My general concern of Gheb playing the "armchair critic" is kinda sumerised in posts like 978, as Gheb just seems to quite often go out of his way to just remind to "scumhunt regularly." Will point out examples as I see them.

1006-1007 is pretty much just armchair critic. Only minus .25 though considering what else Gheb has done.

@Gheb's 1032: To answer your first paragraph my problem with it is that it was just happening too often with too much effort going into those posts. There really isn't a way for you to defend against this accusation, sorry.

Second paragraph is fair enough.

Third paragraph is a strawman and ignores the rest of our reads in our 1020.

Not too much is worth mention between Gheb's 1032 and 1097. Just Gheb trying to get Orboknown to engage himself more, which is good. Shows concern for reading him. +.25.

1097 and 1109 two more armchair critics. Again just basically stating not to speculate on stuff and to just "scumhunt normally." Restates reads in 1097, and it's getting a bit redundant with it. I wouldn't mind this if Gheb wasn't doing it so much toDay. -.25.

Gheb your 1129 is reaching. I don't see how you could think that our input has been minimized with what we've provided. I don't know what to even say to the accusation about our hydra related johns, I can honestly see why you don't like it but all I can do is ask you to believe us. Same thing goes for "not being able to stick to a coherent case." If you look at the reasons we've backed down from those cases I think you'll see that they're legit. Finally, I have no idea how you're finding scum motivation in Xonar stopping the Gova Glyph thing. Trying to cut downb information? Seriously? That's hella generic and seems opportunistic. -.25.

1175 also armchair critic at beginning. -.-

End thoughts: Gheb started off great Day 1 keeping up pressure on several players, which reads legit scum hunting to me. Day two he's been playing the armchair critic/advice dog more often, rather or not it's warranted and that worries me. Am worried about his current scum reads of me and Kantrip as I simply cannot get behind either of them (one of them for an obvious reason). Am not liking his Day 2 play nearly as much as I like his Day 1 play. His reasoning for jumping on us seems opportunistic. Overall I see the effort on Gheb's part but I am a lot more worried about his slot than Ryker, so thus I stand behind my decision to have him die toDay.

Raziek:

The short of it is that we overall liked his Day 1 play, especially wrt his case on Gova. Day 2 play hasn't done anything. Slight town lean, overall though depends on the claim.

Sworddancer:

Overall conclusion from my research is that this game is scary null. However, I do believe that I am able to pick out the people who I feel least confident about that should die toDay:

RR > Orboknown and then Raz depending on future circumstances.

Raziek · Feb 27, 2012

2. (:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX (Brosuke/Swordancer) [Legolas for short]

Ok. Despite all the crap thrown around, I have a Town read on this slot. While accidentally ****ing up Glyph vs. Gova was most decidedly anti-Town, it felt like a legitimate mistake to me. Glyph case was gross, but did yield something I'll get to later.

4. NickelbackR0cks [Orbo]

Leaning Scum. This is what Lego's bad Glyph case helped me get. His jump on the wagon in 921 was gross. When questioned about it, he claimed he felt Glyph "needed a fire under him". Unvoted at an appropriate time, but the way he joined the wagon bothered me.

5. Inferno3044

Contrary to what others seem to think, Inferno's haste (see what I did there?) to claim his result and fishing for who else visited gives me a distinctly Town vibe. Felt like he was genuinely thinking we could find scum. Outside of that vibe, his play has been lacking, and that bothers me, but I don't consider him in the lynch pool for today.

7. T-block Kantrip

Scummy scummy scum. Can't be more certain on this read. T-Block gave me a bad feel, Kantrip continues to give me a bad feel. Stretching to appear Town at every turn. Asked a lot of questions that led nowhere, reaching for points on the calculator thing, REALLY REACHING on claiming to have tried to kill Rajam. No soup for you.

8. Gova

Rescinding my earlier scum read on Gova. Gova vs. Glyph gave me Town vibes on both, has contributed more toDay. No longer in my lynch pool.

9. Red Ryu

Null, slight scum lean. Red Ryu needs to play this game more. As Gheb already pointed out, his case on Kantrip was bad. He hasn't really been involved in much else. Would lynch if elephants flew and my Kantrip scum read evaporated somehow and Orbo became a holy savior for mankind.

10. Rajam

Bothers me less now. Null, VERY Slight Town Lean. Questions have been odd, but distinctly directed in a way that is starting to make sense. Would lynch, but not before Kantrip or Orbo.

11. Seph Sangfroid Warrior

Brownie Townie. Agree with most everything she's said except her Kantrip stance.

12. Glyph

Town. Echoing much of Legolas' sentiment regarding the vibes received. Needs to stop lying about Hellcry punch, though.

Finally, Ryker and Gheb.

This is a difficult decision, because I have Town reads on both of these players. However, despite Ryker's somewhat dumb track record lately, I love him too much to let him die.

There are two main things that contrast to form the basis for why I'm making this choice.

Firstly, Ryker's push on D1 on Nich felt genuine to me. Ryker doesn't usually back off as Town, most recent example I have being UTrick'd 2 and the Acrostic quicklynch. The push is null at worst and gives me Town vibes.

I dislike the fact that he put me on the receiving end of the watcher claim, but I can see why he did so. Would have been nice to catch HIM in a lying position, but his motivations for having me go first were decidedly pro-Town.

What bothers me about Gheb is that he's said a lot of things, but followed up on very few of them. He opened the day saying "Kantrip lynch is fine, but look at Raz, Gova" and someone else, I forget who. However he hasn't really done any pushing of these himself.

My train of thought died off, as I think there was something else, .... right. While I can understand why, his insistence that people disregard night actions bothers me. While the situations are quite complex, to ignore them outright would be foolish, especially given that scum are going to take advantage of anything claimed to begin with.

That's all I have for the moment.

Vote: Kantrip
Execute: Gheb

Overall personal lynch priority:

Kantrip
Orbo
RR
Rajam

In that order.

(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:) · Feb 27, 2012

Alright Raziek, we may have no vote, but that means we will not stand for Kantrip lynch while better options are around. Kantrip is not scum, trust us.

Out of your lynch pool, the best options seems to be Orbo, because for as far as I can see, most people see him as scummy. For now, pressure will suffice while a wagon builds up, should his responses be inadequate, we will lynch him.

Raziek · Feb 27, 2012

Kantrip IS SCUM, trust ME.

:E

Raziek · Feb 27, 2012

Like, unless you've got a cop inno under your hat, I'm almost 100% certain he's scum. And even if you do I'd still want to lynch him.

DtJ Glyphmoney · Feb 27, 2012

Raziek I am not lying about Hellcry Punch or any part of it.

Raziek · Feb 27, 2012

The fact that you felt the need to say that only reconfirms my doubts.

There is no Hellcry Punch. ONLY LIES.

Raziek · Feb 27, 2012

@Glyph:

DtJ Glyphmoney · Feb 27, 2012

I don't know what to say other than my ability IS Hellcry Punch. Is that like not a thing in FFT?

Damnit Raziek what are you getting at?

Raziek · Feb 27, 2012

And you claim to have used it last night on Gova?

DtJ Glyphmoney · Feb 27, 2012

Yessir that is correct.

Raziek · Feb 27, 2012

Stop lying to my face, Glyph.

You didn't visit anyone last night.

DtJ Glyphmoney · Feb 27, 2012

This is news to me

Raziek · Feb 27, 2012

Inferno3044 · Feb 27, 2012

Rajam said:
How have you attracted massive attention to yourself??

Did you not see me vs. Gova? Maybe it wasn't massive attention but I directed attention to myself purposely.

Also, I've seen scum-frozenflame motivating OS (from a opposing alignment) in Fire Emblem Mafia, so don't think that your haste action obeys only a town motivation. It isn't even ascertainable. Why did you pick Gheb anyways for doing that? Why did you pick a role that hastens pre-game? Wouldn't it only help scum to be faster than priests / bodyguards? How is changing NAR pro-town, at least, more pro-town than other roles?

Before I answer these I wanna state that you are using a ****load of WIFOM and you are scum goggling me. You really can't think of a reason hasting someone would be pro-town? I can and will state as I answer each question.

I know it's not solely pro-town, but to have someone go before they can be redirected/RB'd is pro-town. Also I crumbed the **** out of it asking if you guys would let Nich live assuming we could guarantee a successful investigation (crumbing that I could do it). Why did I pick Gheb? He was a strong town pick of mine and I thought whatever action he did, I wanted it to be done before someone can mess it up. I chose that role because I liked it and it appealed to me. I liked some other roles, but I didn't like the restrictions that came with them. The fact that you couldn't see any possible pro-town motives with it baffles me.

Your claim is hard to corroborate, and would require Gheb claiming. You were already cornered when Raziek claimed at the beginning of D2; if you knew the other person who visited Gheb was the scummy one, why wait so long to claim, after Gova? Wouldn't it have been better to claim asap you were one of the visitors, so forcing Raziek to claim who was the other visitor (the scum) asap, hence giving the scum few time to prepare an adequate "fake" claim? Why wait to claim after Gova, if your hastening action isn't relevant at all regarding who claims first (it doesn't help to detect a lie)?

Why does it require Gheb to claim? I see no reason why. Why did I not claim immediately? I wanted to put the impression in scum's head that I didn't visit to potentially catch them off guard. So when Gova claimed his visit, I immediately jumped on it and stated that I was the other in an attempt to catch scum. You are using so much WIFOM it's disgusting.

@Legolas - I kinda dropped the idea of Rajam because today he is actually trying to do something and post some content and stances. Yesterday he was extremely behind and whenever he posted it was some idiotic little comment. I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who wanted Rajam to die yesterday. I definitely put more time and focus into G3S but that game is over and I am solely focused on this game.

DtJ Glyphmoney · Feb 27, 2012

Raz I am 100% certain that I used Hellcry Punch, which is the ability I described, on Gova last night.

You're saying that I never visited anyone. It is possible that since Gova is immune to roleblocking that it counted as me not going there at all, if you ask me.

Gova · Feb 27, 2012

Raziek said:
Stop lying to my face, Glyph.

You didn't visit anyone last night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqyixwqiCag

(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:) · Feb 27, 2012

DtJ Glyphmoney said:
Raz I am 100% certain that I used Hellcry Punch, which is the ability I described, on Gova last night.

You're saying that I never visited anyone. It is possible that since Gova is immune to roleblocking that it counted as me not going there at all, if you ask me.

Ask the mod if your ability classifies as role-block.

Raziek · Feb 27, 2012

DtJ Glyphmoney said:
Raz I am 100% certain that I used Hellcry Punch, which is the ability I described, on Gova last night.

You're saying that I never visited anyone. It is possible that since Gova is immune to roleblocking that it counted as me not going there at all, if you ask me.

This... may be the case, though that would annoy me significantly from a mechanics perspective.

Hmm.

Raziek · Feb 27, 2012

My old image broke. Enjoy this one instead.

Final Fantasy Tactics Mafia: Game finally over! Raziek lynched, Town wins! Lego too!

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Cadet

Smash Master

Life is just a party

Life is just a party

Summoned from a trading card

Life is just a party

Smash Champion

Life is just a party

Smash Cadet

Smash Cadet

Smash Champion

Smash Cadet

Smash Hero

Smash Cadet

Smash Cadet

Charging Limit All Day

Smash Cadet

Smash Hero

Smash Cadet

Charging Limit All Day

Smash Cadet

Charging Limit All Day

Charging Limit All Day

Summoned from a trading card

Charging Limit All Day

Charging Limit All Day

Summoned from a trading card

Charging Limit All Day

Summoned from a trading card

Charging Limit All Day

Summoned from a trading card

Charging Limit All Day

Smash Master

Summoned from a trading card

I'm goin' for it!

Smash Cadet

Charging Limit All Day

Charging Limit All Day

Information

Network