Evo 2013 Ruleset

clowsui said:

Been posting this in various threads:



I'm doing my part to actually help MrWizard. You guys should do the same by encouraging your own TOs to create data in these next 2-3 weeks.

also felix re add me to marth chat idk how i left

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I hope someone goes super s0ft for this trial period just to get for the sake of getting relevant data for how it effects match length, timeout rate, and tournament length.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_U_uD5ewow#t=195s

Ill be running a small biweekly and record the high lvl play matches playing with 3 stock 5 minutes. We will se how that goes

Ill post them here so people have an idea

Damn near 7 pages. I like all this ruleset talk but I think someone should let Mr. Wizard check out the MBR and discuss it with them directly and also let him ask any questions from him or james chen or anyone on melee it on me where you can actually talk with people while the community can voice their opinions. I'm sure it'd be good to have a commentator, a TO, a melee back room member and an excellent player discuss these types of things.

As for what I've read so far, wobbling being legal doesn't change the results much. Wobbles won't get top 3 because of it and low level ice climbers won't even wobble. The real issue is stalling, no one wants to sit there the full eight minutes when the games won, no one wants to quit out when the game isn't over. I heard time changes may come into play, that's not terrible because matches rarely go over 5 minutes, if anything 3 mins seems to be the average until top 12. Less in terms of good players vs. randoms.

I dunno, I always liked the wobbling until 300% rule after which, fsmash. It basically means get a synched grab where you know what your doing with ICs and you get a stock. Just one stock and that's what a good IC does with a grab anyways most of the time. It might be a ***** but it's not gamebreaking. I srsly think Evo organizers should be talking to MBR about this stuff and not...me. But I like MioM cause we can all collectively say a yes or no to something and it will be discussed in front of us.

This probably got replied to hell and the convo is over but

jchensor said:

1) When Wobbling is allowed in tournaments, do the top 8 players end up being predominantly Ice Climbers? In other words, does Wobbling turn Ice Climbers into undisputed #1 character of the game?

2) Without Wobbling, are Ice Climbers ***? Let's think with an FGC example. Third Strike, unblockables with Urien and Oro seem unfair. But it actually makes them competitive and without them, they are not competitive anymore. Where does that fall in with Ice Climbers and Wobbling?

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Icies are good with or without wobbling and are pretty underrepresented as it is anyways. Will Fly or Wobbles even come? If not I doubt a single icies will make top 8 and even then it might be an upset for either of those two or Nintendude or whoever to make top 8. RoM5 had wobbling and I heard Nntendude wanted to abuse the **** out of it but never really got the chance too against most good players. As for going for Nana and avoiding grabs, that's the usual ICs gameplan. And the grabs/nana KOs are what make ICs interesting to watch for me.

Oro unblockables are more like Ness' yoyo glitch. We allow it cause it's hard, he's *** and no one uses Ness. If someone actually pulls off a yoyoglitch in tournament it's hype and doesn't win him the game anyways.

edit regarding time: Just read what bones said on timer and I have to agree. The reason we have 8 minutes is cause we don't want people to time out. A match will probably be 3-4 minutes and if you see you have 1 minute left as fox on a big stage, **** dat **** you're running around shooting lasers. A higher timer for us means go for the kill, you can't stall for 8 minutes in this game and the daunting amount of time left will end up with shorter matches. Thing is, no one goes for time outs anyways and I doubt either will be an issue outside of HBox v. Armada which...you know...

My two cents as a random dude who likes watching Smash:

4 stocks, no question.
7 or 8 minutes. 6 is out of the question.
#freeiceclimbers wobbling is fine and IMO very entertaining to watch anyway.

Pretty much copy-paste Apex's ruleset. -1 time limit and wobbling would be the only potential differences I would make, but they're not a big deal.

Now is definitely not the time to be experimenting with big changes like 3 stock/5 min. Plz don't.

Its about logistics. Lets say out of like 400ppl that enter melee 200 have no real competitive experience or fairly little. Matcjes between those ppl ALWAYS take a long time. This is indisputably true. That means that for the first two or three rounds of a pool you will be getting close to the time limit per game. That is really really bad for someone who has 8 tournies to run in a day

Regarding Mr Wizard's question about how quickly a smash tourney can run. Apex was 3 days...but wait. Doubles took up a full day. Pools took up time and since we're going straight into double elim I think it's important to notice that melee was running early first day of singles and it seemed a lot of people were waiting to play their matches second day. Not ebcause people's matches took too long but because the TOs wanted to stay on top of things, in the end it seemed people found their opponent and went to a friendly set up to play their match instead.

Melee 4 stocks, 8 mins can run fast, in one day? Sure. But since you have CRTs for us and only us, is it necessary to run it in one day? Regardless, the biggest issue is women's soccer. And Mango already said he's going to bed early, scar can tuck him in. M2K is dying to make a good impresion and he'll do his matches on time. As long as people do their matches instead of playing friendlies all the damn day it'll run quickly.

Still though, I think we'll be lowering the amount of entrants this way. How many people who aren't well known going to come out to play rushed matches, get 2-0'd and spend their money in a hotel waiting for G3? I dunno that's just me trying to figure out what I'll do in July.

Well Evo is an experience. Like you gotta think of it like apex which had a lot of ppl participate despite knowing they weren't gonna get far cuz Apex was marketed as a godlike experience

I've just always set time to 7 anyways lol. If a game goes to 7 it'll probably go to 8, but I can't really say the same about games that go to 6. Sometimes some characters just take forever to get kills (PP vs. Armada on DL). Usually to hit these kinds of match times someone has to be trying to time it out anyways. Which brings me to what really matters here >_>

I think we're overstating how much of a problem time is. We can all acknowledge there are very few out-lying sets where matches regularly go anywhere close to the times we we're worrying about. The effects of the outlying sets going to time are generally totally invisible in how a tournament is run. Certainly you won't notice the difference in how fast you run a tournament if takes Armada 12 minutes to beat Hbox instead of 14.

(Krisp, Apex was run unbelievably slowly but it had nothing to do with the amount of matches that needed to be played/match time limits. I assure you it does not take 13+ hours to run a 128 team bracket)

I think the only ruleset problem we have as community, is DSRM vs DSR. Can we as a community just please ****ing switch to DSR? Why can someone win a Bo5 on 2 stages? Man up

Well Scamp gave some valuable info which is that each pool is 16 man 2 TVs. 16 man bracket has 31 sets. To people saying there could be a cap, 600 entrants is 38 pools. If each pool as two TVs like scamp said, and each set lasted an average of 10 minutes, it'll take just over 3 hours for each pool to finish. With 20 setups 10 pools can be run at a time, giving four waves of pools or 12 hours. Of course someone is going to tell me 10 minutes is low for the average set, so 15 minutes would be a bit less than 4 hours per pool or 15-16 hours and 20 minutes a set which is an ungodly long set is 10 hours per wave which is well over a day.

I wish someone actually posted data on the average set length and I'm pretty sure that if Wizard takes up certain people on offers we'll have well over 20 setups, space permitting. How many setups did Apex have?

I thought it was double elim entirely and that's why Evo has seeding points. '07 was a different time.

Whatever they do, Apex can be used for seeding I guess...just make sure to free unknown

clowsui said:

Its about logistics. Lets say out of like 400ppl that enter melee 200 have no real competitive experience or fairly little. Matcjes between those ppl ALWAYS take a long time. This is indisputably true. That means that for the first two or three rounds of a pool you will be getting close to the time limit per game. That is really really bad for someone who has 8 tournies to run in a day

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Your logic is silly. Lack of expertise in killing power means a lack of expertise in survivability. Not necessarily true, but games do not inevitably last to timeouts between beginners.


The 8 minute timer is fine, unless there are blatantly too few setups.

A long best-of-three match lasts 25 minutes, counting a 30 second hand-warmer and time delay for stage selection, if it goes to the third game.

If everyone gets a setup, and it takes 10 minutes of match reporting and shifting between matches, within three hours, a tournament of 512 has shrunk to 256 / 128 / 64 / 32 / 16 / 8 in the Winner's bracket.

That's if every round goes to the 7 minute mark. The entire tournament.

That's also if there are 256 setups. Which, while the EVO staff are generous, is unrealistic.


With that said, stop pandering; our ruleset works. It's fine.

The only rule we now need is


1. NO BUTTON CHECKS OR HAND WARMERS ON STREAM, AND LIMIT THEM TO 30 SECONDS.

It's the most annoying thing to watch.

Excessive "Handwarmers" is detrimental towards spectating, and in a game like Melee, will earn nothing but ridicule.

KrIsP! said:

I thought it was double elim entirely and that's why Evo has seeding points. '07 was a different time.

Whatever they do, Apex can be used for seeding I guess...just make sure to free unknown

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Bracket pools are double elim.

[Megabus]|GHNeko said:

Excessive "Handwarmers" is detrimental towards spectating, and in a game like Melee, will earn nothing but ridicule.

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Meh, i was watching Marvel streams of a recent tournament and basically every match started with handwarmers. It isn't only smash.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but as far as I know, the FGC's definition of "double elimination" differs from that of Smash. When they say double elimination, they really mean it. If you get eliminated twice throughout the course of the tournament, INCLUDING pools, you are done. With Evo's bracket pool format, the players that make it out through the losers bracket will begin their final bracket already in losers. There is no bracket reset like we typically do in Smash.

There was some confusion from FGC people about this at Apex. They didn't understand why we allow "multiple elimination" at our tournaments. Either format is fine imo (though ours is obviously more forgiving) but I wanted people to be aware of this. Though, if I am wrong, feel free to correct me.

Ethereal I did the math just now. W 64 setups (which is the most I think there will be), 512 entrants and the 25/10 model you propose, paring down to a 64 man bracket from DE pools w 32W/32L takes 285 minutes per 256man wave. This means that 2 waves of pools takes 9hr35minutes. You can't run a 64 man bracket in 2hr25 no matter how hard you try lol. Now if pools were 3s6m, you hit 222min per wave, which means 7hr20min (which leaves you some huge breathing room).

I personally think a 1 minute hand warmer is alright but we NEED to make it so people set the time limit to one minute. Too often people start hitting eachother and it becomes a practice round. Most of the time commentators don't even know and it makes us look like a bunch of ******s while our commentators look as confused as viewers are.

If we set the time limit to 1 minute people will know, players will get a respectable amount of time and it won't run long.

I hate to repeat myself. Changing the timer from 8 to 6 minutes will not shave off an average of 2 minutes of each match in your tournament's runtime (in fact it'll probably do nothing at all except cause a few more time outs but I know that's just conjecture). Stop even mentioning the timer anymore, it's pointless.

4 stocks // 8 minutes has worked since forever and there is absolutely no need to change that, and I would not recommend trying new things out at an event as big as EVO.

Stop... barking... up... the wrong... tree.

At this point, the best thing we can do and should really be focusing on is trying to help MrWizard find enough setups and work out the logistics in a way that we can run the tournament as smoothly and efficiently as possible.

King Funk said:

At this point, the best thing we can do and should really be focusing on is trying to help MrWizard find enough setups and work out the logistics in a way that we can run the tournament as smoothly and efficiently as possible.

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I think he said on Melee it on me, He doesn't want us bringing tvs or setups.

A 16 man double elimination bracket on 2 setups and no GFs would take ~2.5 hours with our current ruleset.

So with 512 participants, you can go into a 64 man bracket in less than 3 hours with just 64 setups. Or, you can do two waves in 6 hours with 32 setups.

Reducing a 64 man bracket to 8 takes about 5 hours so all this can be accomplished in a day if necessary.

The whole idea of having handwarm ups is silly. MvC3 doesnt have handwarm ups, its button checks. If everyone played on cabinet or used same controls there wouldnt be one or warmups. Warmups just waste time and make things go slower.

Warmups are used to establish that each player's controller is plugged in properly, and also that the TV doesn't lag (or to simply accommodate oneself to the picture quality). Since there probably won't be any friendly stations, idk how people will even be able to play with just a 1 minute warmup. No warmup at all is just ridiculous.

Bones0 said:

Warmups are used to establish that each player's controller is plugged in properly, and also that the TV doesn't lag (or to simply accommodate oneself to the picture quality). Since there probably won't be any friendly stations, idk how people will even be able to play with just a 1 minute warmup. No warmup at all is just ridiculous.

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This. Its a simple check to make sure all your buttons(and cstick) are working making sure neither stick is stuck in a direction. People are really blowing this issue out of proportion. Its not cool to start a set and immediately realize your csticks not working and all you had to do to fix it was replug it in.

Gea said:

Bracket pools are double elim.

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I was under the impression there are no bracket pools. Just bracket.

KrIsP! said:

I was under the impression there are no bracket pools. Just bracket.

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From what I understand the bracket pools are essentially just parts of the main bracket in a sense. GF of bracket pools isn't played, last person in both winner and loser's brackets get out. That's it. Then those results continue into the main bracket.

And thanks TCB, that is some useful info.

Nintendude1189 said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but as far as I know, the FGC's definition of "double elimination" differs from that of Smash. When they say double elimination, they really mean it. If you get eliminated twice throughout the course of the tournament, INCLUDING pools, you are done. With Evo's bracket pool format, the players that make it out through the losers bracket will begin their final bracket already in losers. There is no bracket reset like we typically do in Smash.

There was some confusion from FGC people about this at Apex. They didn't understand why we allow "multiple elimination" at our tournaments. Either format is fine imo (though ours is obviously more forgiving) but I wanted people to be aware of this. Though, if I am wrong, feel free to correct me.

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True but they adopted the (loser from Pool stays in loser bracket ) recently. I remember back in 07 at Evo I made it out of pools from loser, but ended up in winner bracket. And I remember that in order to speed things up the first two rounds of winner or loser was 4 stocks but only 1 match!!. I will never forget that I had to face PC Chris in my first round of winner and lost Then I had to climb up all the way to 13th place just to lose vs DSF

Anyway if they decide to make the loser from pools to start in the loser side of the bracket it will speed things up. However It has to be clear because we dont want misunderstandings.

And again if Mr Wiz wants to make things faster, reducing the time clock wont do anything, since the clock is not really a factor aside of peach vs jiggs -_-

The only way to make a match to end faster is by reducing stocks. And so far Ive seen people comfortable with this rule, 3 stock 5 or 6 min


For the rule set per se, I think Apex ruleset is the best so far

Suddenly changing the number of stocks changes the fundamentals of the game as we have played it forever. It would be like using the health handicaps in SF.

OK, here is what im proposing.

Apex ruleset. Ice climbers are free to wobble, pause disabled, 4 stock, 8 minutes, 2/3 games, warmups limited to 30 seconds (to make sure your controllers are working).

We will narrow it down to top 8 via one day, but you can play casuals and run side tournaments the other free day.

Thoughts?

...

Well.

I think it's been decided, folks.

Smooth Criminal

Imo, that'd work fine.

See, im not the bad guy here!

#freeiceclimbers

We will probably organize a doubles tournament on the other day, so this would work perfectly. Sounds good. Really good.

TheCrimsonBlur said:

We will probably organize a doubles tournament on the other day, so this would work perfectly. Sounds good. Really good.

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I was just about to mention this. Lol.

Smooth Criminal

best of 3 or best of 1?

2/3 games pending we can get enough setups.

My only fear is smashers will register late and you'll see a spike from 400 to 800 on the last day and be unprepared as far as equipment

How late does registration go till?

MrWizard said:

OK, here is what im proposing.

Apex ruleset. Ice climbers are free to wobble, pause disabled, 4 stock, 8 minutes, 2/3 games, warmups limited to 30 seconds (to make sure your controllers are working).

We will narrow it down to top 8 via one day, but you can play casuals and run side tournaments the other free day.

Thoughts?

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Sounds great! Thank you for being so understanding towards our community and once again thank you for this opportunity!

Scamp said:

The second point I'd like to address is the notion that tournies would take longer with a 6-minute timer rather than an 8-minute timer. It really sounds to me like people are playing theory fighter and don't have any actual proof, they just feel like it's right and go with it.

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True. The question is, is time stalling usually really an option if you don't play Puff against Young Link (a floaty character that never dies against a camper)?

EDIT: OK apparently Mr Wizard is content with 8 minutes.