Evo 2013 Ruleset

[Gea]

So few IC players are around that even if it is legal there is a pretty high chance of never encountering it, or only encountering it once and getting reamed by it. So the backlash is mostly inexperience and just seeing one mistake = one stock instead of seeing the limitations and reality. With or without wobbling most characters are probably going to see the most success by essentially exploiting platforms vs the ICs.

 

[Revven]

I loved the show and everything about it but they made it sound like Wobbling legal hasn't been the standard for a while...

Yeah that's true. There were some other inaccuracies, but that's more to do with them not being involved with the scene at all for years. Can you really blame them? lol

A LOT OF people thought Smash was basically dead before all of this, keep that in mind.

 

[MK26]

UltraDavid and James Chen said it best last night, "Let it rock."

Link to this talk?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

http://www.twitch.tv/ultrachentv/b/364484009

They start off talking about the results, and then start talking about Wobbling after the first commercial break, at about 19:25.

 

[MK26]

Thank you, my good sir.

I eagerly await the changeover to Xenforo so I can like your post.

 

[Wobbles]

Button checking/warmups/handjobs are important because it allows players to adjust to the television and ensure that their controller is plugged in properly without any drift on their stick or some other issue.

I think I'm still the only person who noticed "handjobs."

Also

#freeiceclimbers

I want to land my grabs and have fun for once. Can't you let me have fun?

 

[KrIsP!]

Saw THE wobbles commentigg in a thread where wobbling has been discussed, by james chen no less, and its regarding hand jobs

Nah man we've been trying to get people to call them hand jobs for awhile now. There's a lobby group and everything but commentators are keeping us suppressed. Seriously though, imagine how awkward it would be to ask another guy for a hand job. It's social regulation!

 

[Habefiet]

Saw THE wobbles commentigg in a thread where wobbling has been discussed, by james chen no less, and its regarding hand jobs

Nah man we've been trying to get people to call them hand jobs for awhile now. There's a lobby group and everything but commentators are keeping us suppressed. Seriously though, imagine how awkward it would be to ask another guy for a hand job. It's social regulation!

Are you the guy who started that during the Apex livestream, because if so, marry me

Anyway, Mr Wizard already proposed the ruleset that most people seemed to find the most appropriate (Apex ruleset but with Wobbling legal), so why not thank him for organizing this impromptu debate, declare it settled, start making sure everyone knows what version of DSR is in effect now, and move continued ruleset discussion to the ruleset thread in Melee Discussion?

 

[Juggleguy]

I loved the show and everything about it but they made it sound like Wobbling legal hasn't been the standard for a while...

Wobbling legal isn't the standard, and it never has been...

Look at the facts. The majority of nationals/majors have banned wobbling over the past four years.

 

[KrIsP!]

Are you the guy who started that during the Apex livestream, because if so, marry me

Man I'm the guy who started that on the RoM5 live stream. I'm on a whole new level of immaturity.

 

[Strong Badam]

Wobbling legal isn't the standard, and it never has been...

Look at the facts. The majority of nationals/majors have banned wobbling over the past four years.

and that's a damn shame

 

[Metà]

i have never understood the reasoning behind keeping he ice climbers down. there is no evidence that the infinite is over-centralizing to the point of warranting a ban.

 

[Bones0]

I think almost all of my recent locals in the past year have had wobbling legal. It seems like only larger tournaments ban wobbling. Actual ICs players would probably know better than me though.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Wobbling legal isn't the standard, and it never has been...

Look at the facts. The majority of nationals/majors have banned wobbling over the past four years.

Oh man

I feel pretty silly now

I've been looking through the last few majors and it really is a 50/50 split. Probably slightly more in favor of the ban, as you suggest.

How is our community this scrubby hot damn

 

[Bones0]

Oh man

I feel pretty silly now

I've been looking through the last few majors and it really is a 50/50 split. Probably slightly more in favor of the ban, as you suggest.

How is our community this scrubby hot damn

I think the people that complain about wobbling are just more vocal than those complaining about the ban. Come IC mains, get loud!


All 5 of you...

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I think the people that complain about wobbling are just more vocal than those complaining about the ban. Come IC mains, get loud!

All 5 of you...

Just goes to show how far a vocal minority can go with the way we make our rulesets...

If this thread is any indication, the vast majority prefer wobbling legal too..

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, I mean a TO gets a complaint about wobbling and he knows if he bans it no one else will make an uproar, so why wouldn't he if he's focused on generating attendance? Things like this is where standardization is really useful.

 

[Gea]

How is our community this scrubby hot damn

Just goes to show how far a vocal minority can go with the way we make our rulesets...

Not just people being vocal, but people trying to logic-out the rules instead of going with the age old, "prove it's broken and we'll talk then as a community." Not to drag that conversation into here, but the topic on stages is a pretty good insight into the various mentalities on ruleset. People put personal preference and what they get out of it over what may or may not be gamebreaking. It's been this way for awhile and only gotten worse as time dragged on.

Regardless, maybe with current murmurings of DSR issues and now this we can tweak our ruleset again in the future to standardize certain things like wobbling to their proper place. Legal.

And yeah, what Bones said.

 

[Bones0]

The age of "wait until something is broken before banning" ended when developers began adding customization options. People don't want to just play a game out of the box if they believe they can alter the rules to make it more fun or competitive. Customizing a stage list is a lot different than banning in-game tactics or characters.

 

[CloneHat]

Just do a vote on the ruleset and wobbling./

 

[Laijin]

We should not jump to the Apex ruleset. Not everyone likes the ruleset and many people have issues with it as its relatively new to the community.
We should have a community wide vote on the ruleset that is used for EVO. No one from the smash community is organizing the event, therefore no one should be able to put their preference in the ruleset. This needs to be a community effort/opinion. We do not know the majority opinion, hence why we should have a vote.


I even made a thread that has been generating a lot of interesting discussion on the topic.
There is already a problem with best of 5s generated with the new ruleset and would be resolved with the return of counterpick stages. Check out the thread.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=333814

Edit: Also. Wobbling should be ON. You put yourself in the situation to get infinited. Its not like anyone complains about Fox wallshining someone on Pokemon stadium. If you get caught, its your fault.

 

[CanISmash]

there are more instances of IC being separated then their are of them being synced with a grab to get a wobble off.

my only qualm is it can be a hype killer and if people really have to live in fear of a simple chain grab obliterating stocks fast. IC's might see a lot more 8 minute games of players banning fd and camping the top platform of bf, dreamland, yoshis, etc.

I would love to see some counterpick stages back as well as they were removed gradually to support players biased against fox.
rainbow cruise, mushroom kingdom2, corneria, brinstar, and kongo jungle would be awesome.


EDIT: the johns about ice climbers are about the same as dark phoenix in marvel.

you have a million ways to stop her from turning dark. + setups to instant kill her when she transforms.

as a player if you let an ice climber grab you, while synced, and enough time where you couldn't mash out that is no ones fault but your own.

I would love to see less johns more playing to win. Mangos pound 3 run is a true testament to skill > any other nonsense. he won on corneria like a billion times.



1 more edit: I implore you guys to run a teams tourney it is a staple of smash. run it on the side, offstream and just showcase grand finals on stream

 

[Revven]

my only qualm is it can be a hype killer

I disagree that wobbling is a hype killer. Infinites in Marvel don't kill the hype. We shouldn't even be worrying about what spectators think anyway when it comes to the game itself, it's the players who matter more in regards to wobbling vs no wobbling IMO.

 

[CanISmash]

I disagree that wobbling is a hype killer. Infinites in Marvel don't kill the hype. We shouldn't even be worrying about what spectators think anyway when it comes to the game itself, it's the players who matter more in regards to wobbling vs no wobbling IMO.

after the first stock is lost and players literally refuse to move from the top platform in fear of getting grabbed then it might be.

 

[QWA]

I don't always think about tournament rules, but when I do...

- Wobbling Legal
- :brinstar: :kongo64: s1: :rainbowcruise: as counter-pick stages
- No items, Fox only, Final Destination

I'm serious about the first two, though, I feel like Pokemon Stadium as the only counter-pick is favoring those characters with a powerful up-smash...

I think wobbling completely fair, considering how ridiculously difficult it is to get a grab on an experienced player with in the first place.

 

[Revven]

after the first stock is lost and players literally refuse to move from the top platform in fear of getting grabbed then it might be.

You see Mang0 doing a similar thing with his Fox to Hbox's Jigglypuff and hype doesn't deflate during those periods. It's real smart play and interesting to watch, to me at least. Navigating the platforms to avoid getting grabbed and working to separate the ICs is there with wobbling or without tbh. So spectators aren't really a valid argument to me. People will watch even just to see something as basic as someone spacing out ICs until they're separated and Nana is KO'd.

And if the ICs player gets the grab again the next stock for the revenge KO, then they earned it and hype will skyrocket.

SFAT vs Fly had a lot of that going on and wobbling wasn't even in play. It was constant back and forth and extremely satisfying to watch. With wobbling, it'd be even more of a back and forth and way more intense in my mind. And that would breed hype all on its own.

 

[Bones0]

We should not jump to the Apex ruleset. Not everyone likes the ruleset and many people have issues with it as its relatively new to the community.
We should have a community wide vote on the ruleset that is used for EVO. No one from the smash community is organizing the event, therefore no one should be able to put their preference in the ruleset. This needs to be a community effort/opinion. We do not know the majority opinion, hence why we should have a vote.


I even made a thread that has been generating a lot of interesting discussion on the topic.
There is already a problem with best of 5s generated with the new ruleset and would be resolved with the return of counterpick stages. Check out the thread.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=333814

Edit: Also. Wobbling should be ON. You put yourself in the situation to get infinited. Its not like anyone complains about Fox wallshining someone on Pokemon stadium. If you get caught, its your fault.

No one is "jumping" to the Apex/MBR rule set. It's been the ruleset for almost every major since the list was posted (and most were using a very similar ruleset even before it was posted). It isn't relatively new in any sense. The list was posted in late 2011, so people have been using 6-7 stages on their list for about 2 years now. Adding stages back in less than half a year before what may be the biggest Melee tournament of all time, even with majority support, is a horrible idea.

Not to be blunt, but your topic isn't generating any interesting discussion. Literally every point brought up has been brought up before. Go read through the actual ruleset thread if you don't believe me.

As far as the "problem" with the bo5s, there is no problem if literally anyone would try my ruleset. It isn't my opinion that the ruleset fixes the problems caused by DSR Modified. It is literally a fact that my ruleset addresses the problem we have without changing the stage list. As if that weren't good enough, it can be universally applied to sets no matter how many games! Whether you are playing a bo3, bo5, bo7, or a bo77, they all maintain a balanced counterpicking system. There are never any surprises based on what stage you won on, when you won on it, or having to counterpick yourself because you ran out of stages. It's also more simple, easier to remember, easier for new players to pick up, and easily adapted to the current ruleset. Simple delete the section of the ruleset that says "DSR" and replace it with "BSR". Boom, problem solved. I must just be awful at presenting my ideas because I can't imagine any way people can read my rule with an explanation of why it works and just go "Oh, I guess that's neat... I'll stick with DSR though."

Again, I don't want to seem like I'm just spamming this thread to get people to feed my ego for liking my ruleset. I just want to play with some rules that make some ****ing sense. HERE is my thread, and here is a quick excerpt of the "meat" of my ruleset (i.e. the part that would fix all of the problems with no tradeoff):

COUNTERPICKING
1. The winner of the previous game chooses their character.
2. The loser of the previous game chooses their character.
3. The winner of the previous game bans a stage.
4. The loser of the previous game chooses from the remaining stages.
- Random is not a legal counterpick.
- Bans are temporary and do not carry over to the next the game's stage selection.
- Bones's Stupid Rule: A player cannot ban the same stage twice in a row.

 

[KrazyKnux]

imo wobbling should be legal since it definitely isn't gamebreaking, but we should applaud cooler methods of chaingrabs and look down on wobbling LOL. I mean, if wobbling being banned led to that awesome series of chaingrabs in that Fly vs. SFAT match, then that's a pretty cool side effect of not allowing wobbling. Flashy play is too good imo.

So we got 4 stock 8 minutes, 2/3 sets. As far as stage selection, we should really stick to the Apex 2013 ruleset. Wobbling legal. We should use Bones's method for counterpicking in lieu of DSR or DSRm because it fixes all the flaws with those systems that most people complain about (lack of stage choices for DSR and unfair counterpicking for DSRm.)

#BSR

 

[Kink-Link5]

We should not jump to the Apex ruleset. Not everyone likes the ruleset and many people have issues with it as its relatively new to the community.

You keep saying that.

Who are these many people?

 

[Laijin]

No one is "jumping" to the Apex/MBR rule set. It's been the ruleset for almost every major since the list was posted (and most were using a very similar ruleset even before it was posted). It isn't relatively new in any sense. The list was posted in late 2011, so people have been using 6-7 stages on their list for about 2 years now. Adding stages back in less than half a year before what may be the biggest Melee tournament of all time, even with majority support, is a horrible idea.

Not to be blunt, but your topic isn't generating any interesting discussion. Literally every point brought up has been brought up before. Go read through the actual ruleset thread if you don't believe me.

As far as the "problem" with the bo5s, there is no problem if literally anyone would try my ruleset. It isn't my opinion that the ruleset fixes the problems caused by DSR Modified. It is literally a fact that my ruleset addresses the problem we have without changing the stage list. As if that weren't good enough, it can be universally applied to sets no matter how many games! Whether you are playing a bo3, bo5, bo7, or a bo77, they all maintain a balanced counterpicking system. There are never any surprises based on what stage you won on, when you won on it, or having to counterpick yourself because you ran out of stages. It's also more simple, easier to remember, easier for new players to pick up, and easily adapted to the current ruleset. Simple delete the section of the ruleset that says "DSR" and replace it with "BSR". Boom, problem solved. I must just be awful at presenting my ideas because I can't imagine any way people can read my rule with an explanation of why it works and just go "Oh, I guess that's neat... I'll stick with DSR though."

Again, I don't want to seem like I'm just spamming this thread to get people to feed my ego for liking my ruleset. I just want to play with some rules that make some ****ing sense. HERE is my thread, and here is a quick excerpt of the "meat" of my ruleset (i.e. the part that would fix all of the problems with no tradeoff):

I completely disagree that my thread isn't generating any interesting discussion. I've learned quite a few things from reading through the thread and I find it very interesting a lot of old school players think what defines melee and how to preserve its integrity.

The Apex ruleset is barely one year old. You said it yourself. One year compared to several years is a HUGE difference. The Apex ruleset has flaws, like I mentioned before while the old ruleset(although has flaws), worked out way better to where we don't have to modify it with your adjusted rules for Bo5. Literally the only reason the Apex ruleset was adopted was because a very small handful of people in the backroom decided they don't want to play on other stages that are not "neutral" and has random elements in it. Well, then we can basically get into a huge debate about whats neutral, why Yoshi Story/FoD is more random than Rainbow Cruise, etc etc.

I don't see the logic in not replacing a relatively new ruleset thats been proven to be broken with one that has been time tested and has served/worked flawlessly for the community for several years for what is to probably be the largest melee tournament of all time.

 

[Bones0]

I completely disagree that my thread isn't generating any interesting discussion. I've learned quite a few things from reading through the thread and I find it very interesting a lot of old school players think what defines melee and how to preserve its integrity.

The Apex ruleset is barely one year old. You said it yourself. One year compared to several years is a HUGE difference. The Apex ruleset has flaws, like I mentioned before while the old ruleset(although has flaws), worked out way better to where we don't have to modify it with your adjusted rules for Bo5. Literally the only reason the Apex ruleset was adopted was because a very small handful of people in the backroom decided they don't want to play on other stages that are not "neutral" and has random elements in it. Well, then we can basically get into a huge debate about whats neutral, why Yoshi Story/FoD is more random than Rainbow Cruise, etc etc.

I don't see the logic in not replacing a relatively new ruleset thats been proven to be broken with one that has been time tested and has served/worked flawlessly for the community for several years for what is to probably be the largest melee tournament of all time.

I'm sure the discussion seems new to you because you haven't been on the forums or even the game for over a year. Like I said, go read through the MBR Recommended Ruleset thread. Myself, Cactuar, and even Kal (who disagrees with most of my positions) has basically said that everything has been beat to death. I could start a stage list thread next week and it would still blow up. Every stage list thread blows up because all it takes is a couple people who've never participated in a stage list discussion to get everyone else refuting their points.

The Apex ruleset is NOT new. This is a fact unless you think 2-year-old rulesets are new (I never said it was barely 1 year old). Go look at the post date for the MBR Recommended Ruleset. The MBR didn't just decide to get rid of stages and everyone followed suit. Most established TOs don't even use the MBR Ruleset. People stopped using counterpicks, so the MBR released a new ruleset to reflect that change in our community. Again, these are all facts. Not to sound elitist or anything, but I have been playing since before the list was posted up until now unlike yourself, so how you are going to tell me a ruleset is new is baffling. Why do you think no one else in this thread agrees with you that the ruleset is new? Either the MBR brainwashed everyone, or the community has settled on the 6-stage list. Fyi, Europe has been using this ruleset for YEARS. Idk exactly when they started, but hopefully a European can post about when it became the standard over there. You're asking people to ignore the ruleset that was used for the majority of nationals and locals for the past two years, and instead use a ruleset with stages that many people haven't played in serious competition for just as long. That's insane.

 

[Vulcan55]

Wait, Pokestad is the ONLY counterpick?
I leave for two years, and this happens?
What in the ****.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Marth can still cp fox to FD and Peach can still cp everyone to FoD. PS1 is the only stage that is exclusively a counterpick though.

 

[Nintendude]

Pretty sure Apex rules are just MBR rules + wobbling banned.

 

[Laijin]

Wait, Pokestad is the ONLY counterpick?
I leave for two years, and this happens?
What in the ****.

Yup. My exact reaction. Which is why I'm making a HUGE issue out of it right now. A large amount of the community doesn't agree with the decision but ultimately its up to the T.O. to decide what they run at their tournament. However, this EVO. So there are no smash T.Os. The ruleset should be voted on by the entire community.

I'm sure the discussion seems new to you because you haven't been on the forums or even the game for over a year. Like I said, go read through the MBR Recommended Ruleset thread. Myself, Cactuar, and even Kal (who disagrees with most of my positions) has basically said that everything has been beat to death. I could start a stage list thread next week and it would still blow up. Every stage list thread blows up because all it takes is a couple people who've never participated in a stage list discussion to get everyone else refuting their points.

The Apex ruleset is NOT new. This is a fact unless you think 2-year-old rulesets are new (I never said it was barely 1 year old). Go look at the post date for the MBR Recommended Ruleset. The MBR didn't just decide to get rid of stages and everyone followed suit. Most established TOs don't even use the MBR Ruleset. People stopped using counterpicks, so the MBR released a new ruleset to reflect that change in our community. Again, these are all facts. Not to sound elitist or anything, but I have been playing since before the list was posted up until now unlike yourself, so how you are going to tell me a ruleset is new is baffling. Why do you think no one else in this thread agrees with you that the ruleset is new? Either the MBR brainwashed everyone, or the community has settled on the 6-stage list. Fyi, Europe has been using this ruleset for YEARS. Idk exactly when they started, but hopefully a European can post about when it became the standard over there. You're asking people to ignore the ruleset that was used for the majority of nationals and locals for the past two years, and instead use a ruleset with stages that many people haven't played in serious competition for just as long. That's insane.

Even if it is 2 years old and not 1 year old, its still RELATIVELY NEW compared to the old rules. I don't know how else I can emphasize that it has not been around for a long time. Yes. 2 year old rulesets are new in comparison to the old ruleset, which is several years old.

I don't understand how its insane. I just pointed out(and as in that thread I posted) that the new ruleset contains way more flaws that were discovered over the course of it's two years. Its had its run. If a local smash TO wants to use the new ruleset then by all means let them. I would rather see the tournament run on the old ruleset.

Besides, bottom line. Neither of our opinions matter by themselves. This is a community decision and should be voted on by the community. There are no smash TOs running EVO so no one person or small group of individuals should be able to select their personal preference on the ruleset. People have already expressed their heavy dislike for the ruleset, so let the community vote on it.

 

[MK26]

Again, I don't want to seem like I'm just spamming this thread to get people to feed my ego for liking my ruleset. I just want to play with some rules that make some ****ing sense. HERE is my thread, and here is a quick excerpt of the "meat" of my ruleset (i.e. the part that would fix all of the problems with no tradeoff):

Bones, I've been thinking about your ruleset for a while, and I've finally figured out how to articulate what I have against it. It doesn't plug the hole that MDSR causes in that a player can still win a bo5 on 2 stages. One should never be able to counterpick back to a stage they've already won on, regardless of whether or not they've won on another stage in the interim, and regardless of whether the two players agreed to that stage for the first match. MDSR was born of the idea that this isn't true for the neutral pick, and, its other shortcoming notwithstanding, this alone should mean it's removed from competitive rulesets. I understand that this sounds like personal preference (because it is, as I explain here - tl;dr we can and do shape the competitive game to what we want it to be) but it really does make sense to me that you should need to win on 3 separate stages if you want to win 3 games.

The obvious solution (since under the current stage list there are characters that are clearly good but lack options for a 3rd stage against some other characters) is to add at least one more stage to the rotation.

Spoiler

I'd argue for Brinstar, since (among other things) we as a competitive community have sort of drifted towards stages with less ground area over those with more. This is less important than the rest of my post, hence my spoilering it.

 

[KayB]

Sheik's chaingrabs take no skill and are way easier than her tech chases which often look cooler and are awesome cuz they lead to combos.

New rule: Sheik cannot chaingrab anybody.

I know, I just wanted to point it out. I'm on the side where it shouldn't be banned. Obviously Wobbling doesn't largely affect tournaments or many matches for that matter, and it isn't really that much of a big deal. Ice Climbers suddenly don't start doing well if there's wobbling so I see no reason to ban it.

 

[Laijin]

So basically, we should have a community vote on what stages should be legal and if wobbling should be banned. Sounds fair.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

No we shouldn't. Players that aren't near the top of the metagame should have little say in what the stagelist is.

I care about what the top 100 players think and that's about it.

 

[MK26]

Not on what stages should be legal, but on what competitive smash is. What it means. Not even considering stages. And then look at the stages one by one and say "does this stage let the criteria flourish?". If yes, legal, if no, banned, if maybe, think harder.

I'm reading this and it sounds a bit idealistic even to me, but you have to separate the individual stages' quirks from people's personal bias on what competitive Melee is. We control so many aspects of the game from 4 stock to turning items off to turning team attack on to stage striking to etc. etc. That's because that's the framework within which we want to test for competitive Melee skills. Why are stages the exception to the rule? Why can you handwave and go "I don't like it" as an excuse to ban it? Justify your decision! How do you justify it? Not with "Peach is too good here", but with "Camping isn't the skill set we want to test". Be formal about it! And in that formality, maybe you'll realize that a stage or two has fallen through the cracks!

We choose what the game is. Competitive Melee isn't the same game you get when you don't change the settings. What is competitive Melee? What does it demand? What does it exclude? Once you answer those questions, then and only then can you decide which stages meet its demands. Not the other way around.