Apparentlly, we suck against Wario, as well as Craptain Failcon

Phiddlesticks said:

I thought falcon punished mistakes with his -3 frame jab ?_? (yeah that's right his jab comes out BEFORE YOU EVEN PRESS A)

I still don't think Squirtle is at a disadvantage here. Falcon's recovery isn't a bad recovery, but it's still a linear recovery and isn't hard to edgeguard with Squirtle's fair/bair (and even dair). Water Gun isn't an issue for Falcon unless he for some reason recovers above the stage. I guess you could use Water Gun to send Falcon underneath the FD lip or something, but that seems pretty situational. That being said, Falcon can also edgeguard Squirtle himself, but you have to position yourself so that you won't be hit by the water (ie get behind Squirtle and try to stage spike with bair, or try to dair him out of waterfall).

On the stage, I also think Squirtle has the advantage. Squirtle's aerials are overall better than Falcon's (I'm NOT saying Falcon's are bad, because I know they aren't). Because of Squirtle's small size, Falcon has to use his aerials carefully if he wants to actually be effective with them. Squirtle can also really rack up the damage with uptilt/upair combos (especially when fatigued) due to Falcon's fall speed, although he will first need to get inside Falcon's range.

I've noticed a lot of posts mentioning the grab release chain grab (and possible infinite? has that been confirmed?), and I just plain don't get it. When people mention all of the grab release combos on Wario, EVERYONE immediately says "good luck grabbing him". Why can't the same be said for Squirtle? Squirtle is also one of the most mobile characters in the game when airborne, most of his aerials (excluding dair and a poorly timed upair) have little, if any, landing lag, and he has a 1 frame jab to punish opponents trying to shield grab. Honestly, Squirtle should be just as hard to grab as Wario is. If Falcon does manage to get a grab on Squirtle, yeah, it's pretty devastating. But frankly, that shouldn't be happening enough to swing the matchup in Falcon's favour.

Another thing which surprisingly hasn't been mentioned (I think) is Squirtle's grab game. For a character of his size, Squirtle actually has a deceptively big grab range. He also has good throws for damage, setup, and killing. Squirtle's upthrow is actually a really good throw (I will even go as far to say that it's overall his best throw). Not only is it his most damaging throw at 11% (tied with his back throw), but it also sends opponents into an excellent position for upair 'juggles'. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't Falcon like to be below his opponents if possible so that he can hit with upair and nair easier, or at least on even ground with them? The only things Falcon can do to defend below him are dair and Falcon Kick (and air dodges, which can be both baited and punished pretty easily). Dair isn't very relieble when going against an upair happy Squirtle, and Falcon Kick is also easily punishable (it might be possible to punish it even if you get hit; I'm not sure). And of course, Squirtle's down throw is a kill move, blah blah.

Another small detail is the fact that Squirtle resists fire moves. This makes Falcon's fsmash, upb, and whatever other fire killing moves Falcon has (I would mention Falcon Punch, but it's not very reliable. Wait, ****, I just did mention Falcon Punch) kill later. I'm not saying Squirtle will be some sort of ridiculous stock tank, and honestly I'm not even sure if Falcon's upb is considered a kill move, but I thought Squirtle's fire resistance should be mentioned anyways.

I just don't see how this matchup can be anything other than 60/40 (maybe 55/45) Squirtle's advantage

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Bomber7 said:

I got a question. I have seen posts from you guys here and there saying "A good Falcon doesnt do ______"

Why isnt the Captain higher on the tier list or at least ranking higher on tournies? (which tourny placing really matters to me)

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Player-3 said:

one, if the captain grabs squirtle, he can CG him across the stage to a Uair for about a free 20-40% , or more depending on if the squirtle doesnt react too well and the captain pivot grabs, stuff like that.

Thanks, but I already addressed the grab release chain grab, and I already mentioned how I didn't think it was that big of a deal. Again, "good luck grabbing Squirtle."

squirtle is grabbed easier because he is FORCED to get cloes to deal damage, where a wario can approch with Dairs (insane), his bite, fair, or the bike, also, to grab ANYONE jab > grab. end of that.

Wait, what? I honestly don't even know how to address this point, other than to shoot it down because it's just COMPLETELY WRONG. Seriously.

and how many falcons do you see killing with FSMASH or UPB? those are used as a punishing move for damange, NOT killing. Dsmash, knee, uair,bair,usmash are his main kill moves (falcon punch is too beastly, it doesnt matter if he resists it)

I said in my previous post that this point was just something minor. The only reason I thought it deserved to be mentioned was because Squirtle resists fire moves and Falcon has fire moves.

there is no way this is in squirtles favor, but its not a death matchup for him either

You have countered nothing from my previous post other than the fact that Falcon doesn't use his fire moves to kill (which was an extremely minor point to begin with). I still stand by 60/40 Squirtle's advantage

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Bomber7 said:

Well you need to get your guys who compete in tournies in shape cuz if you can place that high then CF would definatly increase his rankings.

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Player-3 said:

sorry for double post,
but honestly, i can only think of 2 or 3 falcon players that place well in tournies,
Ayaz, champ(retired), and hiza (also ally, but )
ayaz goes to big tournies and makes like 13th or so, thats not good enough

ive only been to one tourny where i placed 12th, and all the other falcon players THAT WOULD PLACE WELL OR SEMI-WELL dont play tournies except for online ones (dont count)

So, yeah, we dont have many tournament falcon players out there, hope it answers your question

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Bestiarius said:

That certainly isn't reflexive of those numbers.

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Steeler said:

alright i will actually contribute here.

release grab is falcon's savior on squirtle, not something that makes the matchup even more in falcon's advantage, if you know what i mean. falcon would struggle without it, honestly. squirtle's attacks are still quicker than falcon's, especially on the ground. 55/45 falcon's advantage imo.

ivysaur has a solid advantage. his defenses are quite annoying for someone with an already bad approach. razor leaf, bair, fair, ftilt, dtilt, grabs. these tools will frustrate any falcon. ivy isn't all defense though, nair combos into other aerials (including itself), utilt, and bullet seeeeeed. on the ground, razor leaf gives ivy a chance to set up a grab or just tilt/jab. or just sit back and force falcon into a difficult approach. obviously being above falcon is bad for ivy but it's not serious. falcon getting a grab will be very difficult. the fire weakness will rarely come into play when the only attacks that can kill are slow anyway. fsmash, falcon punch. raptor boost might be a fire move. 65/35 ivysaur, maybe 70/30.

charizard. charizard has a slight advantage. again, it's about defensive tools that stop falcon approaches. one of the best shieldgrabs in the game. rock smash countering, which is particularly effective because of a lack of disjointed priority. yeah yeah falcon can "combo" charizard at low percent. charizard can also rock smash you for up to 45% to make up for it. 55/45 charizard, maybe 60/40. at low percent falcon can do some nice stuff but killing will be a *****.

so that's individual

trainer strategy

an ivysaur/charizard stock will absolutely **** falcon. space the balls out of falcon, rack up safe damage. kill with ivy or switch to zard to kill. lots of kill power there and then just tank the stock. falcon will not have an easy time of killing zard. zard won't care about fatigue or anything, he'll just sit back and try to counter your approaches with flamethrower, rock smash, grabs, or his good tilts. then squirtle comes in at low percent, which is what you want so that the release grabs don't kill you or anything. switch when the opportunity first presents itself. that's how pokemon trainer should beat captain falcon. overall, this is a 60/40 for pt's advantage. not a bad matchup for falcon at all, you just need to be slightly better than the pt or really mess up the switch order.

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