COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

Shell · Feb 19, 2009

I just tried v10 and I was able to decelerate ala Melee. Good stuff. To be honest, 80% doesn't feel to bad. I'll probably stick with the 75%. I'm not sure that we need character specific values. Definitely character specific frictions though. Captain falcon got himself all greased up.

Blank Mauser · Feb 19, 2009

If we're going to go with character specific values can we at least just give faster characters better control instead of nerfing their air momentum altogether? It doesn't have to apply to anybody who doesn't need it.

Also Brawl momentum was never slow. You guys act as if I want people to just stop moving. Shanus himself even said that reverting momentum with aerials felt better, think about being able to do that just by tapping back.

kupo15 · Feb 19, 2009

GPDP said:
What's wrong with that? I think it works amazingly well now. Though Marth goes a bit too far lol.

Sonic needs to be at like 50%
Falcon at like 75%
and everyone else at like 80%

I think. Idk ask shanus

shanus · Feb 19, 2009

Sonic needs something to reduce his a bit. Most chars around 75% would be good. Sonic though has a near worthless uair now from a jog and fair can only get about 1/6 of its hitbox now since you fly through someone.

leafgreen386 · Feb 19, 2009

I dunno guys. After just playing some matches at 70% it feels amazing. I think it'd be awkward to go much faster than that. Even at 70%, characters still seem to fly further than they did in melee.

kupo15 · Feb 19, 2009

spunit262 said:
Forces aren't affected ether but we can already modify them.

Would this also affect the kill zones as well or would the distance from the stage to the side kill zones be closer?

spunit262 · Feb 19, 2009

Kill zones are part of the stage.

kupo15 · Feb 19, 2009

can you make a universal stage size code?

spunit262 · Feb 19, 2009

I only found this thing by accident, I don't know.

kupo15 · Feb 19, 2009

ok well if you come across it, please make it cause we are interested. This way we can up the momentum speed since we have more ground to cover, thus making the game faster

Frogles · Feb 19, 2009

Most characters at 80-90% would be good. Fox, Falcon, and Sonic are the few that need their own value.

I dunno who was saying it before, but RAR definitely works. Dashing also stores momentum for standing forward/back jumps. x_o

spunit262 · Feb 19, 2009

Momentum Capture V11 [Phantom wings, spunit262]
048668AC 60000000
C28669D8 00000017
C04283D8 FC811040
418600A4 807D007C
A0830006 80630038
2C040003 4182000C
2C040004 40A20088
2C03000B 40A20078
3C008180 809D0008
8084FFFC 7C040000
4080000C 80840030
48000008 3880FFFF
3C004780 901B000C
C05B000C 38A2FE5E
8CC50002 88E50001
7CC60775 4180000C
7C062000 4082FFEC
B0FB000E C01B000C
FC001028 40A40008
FC000050 C05B0018
FC420032 FC011040
4C002182 40800008
FC201090 2C030022
40800008 D03B0008
60000000 00000000
C277F798 00000003
2C1C000A 40A00008
B39E0006 7C1C0000
60000000 00000000

065A9180 00000006
2F40094D FF660000
Needs "Character Id Fix".
Format is
XXYYXXYY XXYYXXYY
XX is character id, FF is for everyonr not listed, and ends the list.
YY is a "8-bit fixed-point" to convert to it add 65536 to your value and use the last 2 digts after puting it though a 32-bit floating-point converter. Can only repersent values between 0 and 2 (really 1.9921875).

Current values
Sonic 50%
Captain Falcon 60%
Everyone else 80%

trojanpooh · Feb 19, 2009

Very tiny glitches I noticed, one is so small it doesn't even really need to be addressed.

1) In the water, sometimes a small amount of momentum was kept despite me jumping straight out

2) After dying, once or twice when coming out of the portal I had a bit of momentum in the direction I had accidentally suicided in.

InterimOfZeal · Feb 19, 2009

Hay, I really like the idea Blank had. Any chance we can still try it?

kupo15 · Feb 19, 2009

sweet thanks! Where is the sonic, falcon, and everyone else line? Oh nvm, I think I got it

spunit262 · Feb 19, 2009

kupo15 said:
sweet thanks! Where is the sonic, falcon, and everyone else line?

The last one.

2F40094D FF660000

kupo15 · Feb 19, 2009

cool so we can split the big code and the char spec values up as two different codes?

spunit262 · Feb 19, 2009

There's already a line break.

kupo15 · Feb 20, 2009

im sorry for being so stupid, but is that a yes or a no? Can I have on code entitled, Momentum modifier (the big chunk) then a separate one "momentum data" and use the smaller one and keep building off of the two line thing?

Blank Mauser · Feb 20, 2009

the two lines at the end are the momentum modifiers. Spunit did a nice job of keeping the lines minimal because you don't have to list every character now. Instead, you add your modifications BEFORE the last line. The last line that says FF is the line that tells the code to end and also modifies the momentum for every character not listed.

kupo15 · Feb 20, 2009

Blank Mauser said:
the two lines at the end are the momentum modifiers. Spunit did a nice job of keeping the lines minimal because you don't have to list every character now. Instead, you add your modifications BEFORE the last line. The last line that says FF is the line that tells the code to end and also modifies the momentum for every character not listed.

Yup, you can insert lines before that and mod 4 chars per line and 3 chars on the last line before modding everyone

SketchHurricane · Feb 20, 2009

So is it gravy or what? If so, Spunit or another can move on to char specific friction while we feel out the needed values for momentum.

Awesome work once again, Spunit.

Dan_X · Feb 20, 2009

holy God, this is too good! Spunit, you're amazing! I can't wait to test this!!! What do you guys think? How's it working out? Is the walk-off momentum gone?

kupo15 · Feb 20, 2009

this should be right

50% sonic
60% ZSS
75% falcon
82% Falco
85% ganon
80% everyone

2F400960 146D184D
1369FF66 00000000

Blank Mauser · Feb 20, 2009

I still don't understand why we need to nerf air momentum when we can have COMPLETE control over it. Melee didn't need complete control and the ability to stop momentum instantly because you could just land and everyone jumped and landed fast as heck. Brawl with aerial momentum needs it because we can't do that.

Why does everyone treat aerial momentum like its merely a speed boost? Aerial momentum is combos, aerial momentum is mix-ups, aerial momentum is versatility. Its having all your options available to you when you need them and because your character is fast enough to do it whether you want to try it by running or jumping. If we need to nerf characters we can do it some other way, but we finally have a mechanic that could be as game changing as hitstun and adds tons to combos and approaching.

I mean really, approaching without aerial momentum is silly sometimes. Approaching with aerials is one of the worst things you can do with too many characters. I was ecstatic to be able to approach with Falco's SHDL to Dair again, and ZSS' edgeguarding is great with it. In my opinion, it should be a universal buff like hitstun, and we just need to perfect the controls of it (And canceling the momentum by holding back is not a bad idea at all in real practice) and we'd actually match a lot of the depth we had in Melee without keeping our combos so straight-forward and set in stone.

Dark Sonic · Feb 20, 2009

^^This is one of the few times that I've agreed with Blank. I don't understand why some characters are getting sub-optimal momentum values. I think momentum should be treated in the same way as Short hops, gravity changes, ect.

For instance, Kupo, why does Falcon get 75% momentum transfer, when Sonic has to settle for 50%? Is it because he's better with it? Some characters are better with hitstun, yet why aren't we pushing for a character specific hitstun mod(not that it would be practical)? The entire goal of even putting in aerial momentum in the first place is to give characters more options! And the character specific values seem so arbitrarily chosen, to the point of me believing that they are just plain biased (though I'm most likely reacting this way since it directly affects my character, but I'm trying to keep bias out of my argument). Really, what makes Falcon deserve that 75% over Sonic? Sonic certainly isn't 25% faster than Falcon in ground speed, so why did you chose those values? And why did you slow them down in the first place, when the goal of this code is to speed them up?

If a character needs nerfing we should refer to that character's moveset to nerf them, not their physics. And even with 80% momentum (just like everyone else) Sonic and Falcon are far from game-breaking, so is it really fair to just take that chunk of the buff away from them?

CountKaiser · Feb 20, 2009

I believe 50% was chosen so that Sonic wasn't unwieldy.

It will go up once the momentum is controllable.

B.W. · Feb 20, 2009

I'm also for Blank's idea of more momentum control whilst in the air.

Though I think as of right now they're shifting characters so that the code can at least be playable with what we have at the moment. Sonic and CF with super duper momentum makes them very much a pain in the *** to use. At least this way we'd have a current setting for them which makes it so they aren't unwieldy.

Dark Sonic · Feb 20, 2009

^^What exactly do you mean "when the momentum is controllable"? You know that you can just shield (which comes up in 1 frame) and then jump cancel it and you'll jump with standing momentum right? Sonic already has the medium/slow air movements options covered, so why does he need to lose this fast air option (or have it reduced)? Characters "being unwieldy," is just a result of us not being used to the character changes yet. Do you remember the first time that you played Fox or Falcon in melee? They were very hard for beginners to pick up, but once that speed was harnessed they became top/high tier characters.

I'm fine with taking a few steps backwards (control-wise) if it means that later I'll have more total control options to master.

Xaej · Feb 20, 2009

is walk-off momentum gone with this code?

CyberGlitch · Feb 20, 2009

Yes,

I'd also like to point out that the Smash Workshop board has the most viewers on SWF by far. Good work guys, people a getting interested.

Shell · Feb 20, 2009

I agree that although Sonic may seem at first unwieldy relative to the rest of the cast, there's no point in limiting his options just to make him more noob-friendly. Dark Sonic, what value do you find to work in Sonic's best interest?

Side note, I think strength of the momentum capture will depend partly on if we ever adopt smaller characters. A big determinant of jump size is how much of the stage it covers, which will change if the character size / stage size ratio is adjusted. Not too important, but just keep it in the back of your minds.

B.W. · Feb 20, 2009

Dark Sonic said:
^^What exactly do you mean "when the momentum is controllable"? You know that you can just shield (which comes up in 1 frame) and then jump cancel it and you'll jump with standing momentum right? Sonic already has the medium/slow air movements options covered, so why does he need to lose this fast air option (or have it reduced)? Characters "being unwieldy," is just a result of us not being used to the character changes yet. Do you remember the first time that you played Fox or Falcon in melee? They were very hard for beginners to pick up, but once that speed was harnessed they became top/high tier characters.

I'm fine with taking a few steps backwards (control-wise) if it means that later I'll have more total control options to master.

What I had meant here was that, once we have a solution better than just saying "nope you don't get the full code here."

I would think it'd be best if we made it so that if we were to hold back, it would make us gradually slow down if we need it. Not a whole right away thing like pressing back then "boom momentum gone." Think of Super Mario oldies. You'd run forward. Jump. But realize that you over-shot it and so you quickly press back in hopes of fixing your mistake.

I think that's how momentum should work myself.

But what we are doing now seems to be the best bet for things. While I agree, it is possible to just learn to deal with the momentum as is (and personally I think that's how it should be as of right now) but it seems the majority of people want to try it like this. Obviously this is gonna be something that's gonna have to be discussed quite a bit as there are many different ways we could go with this.

Sorry if I don't make much sense lately. I work a good 6-8+ hours every day in a week, and I often stay up late to keep up with what's going on with Brawl+ as well as attempting to help by putting in my own bits in pieces of stuff. But lately I haven't been doing well as far as making what I say clear, and I think that's partially due to exhaustion and lack of sleep so bear with me a bit as it all makes sense in my head (and even I get a bit confused after not seeing it for 15 mins and going back and reading it sometimes so I know something isn't goin' right in my head.)

kupo15 · Feb 20, 2009

here you go DS. Take your beef up with shanus. He told me to tone it down

Code:

048668AC 60000000
C28669D8 0000000D
C04283D8 FC811040
41860054 C0020008
40A40008 FC000050
807D007C A0830006
80630038 2C040003
4182000C 2C040004
40A2002C 2C03000B
40A2001C C05B0018
FC420032 FC011040
4C002182 40800008
FC201090 2C030022
40800008 D03B0008
60000000 00000000
C277F798 00000003
2C1C000A 40A00008
B39E0006 7C1C0000
60000000 00000000
045A9328 3F4CCCCD

zxeon · Feb 20, 2009

WTF ZSS 60% you must be out of your chicken fried mind. Her momentum is fine.

Shell · Feb 20, 2009

Project-05 said:
I would think it'd be best if we made it so that if we were to hold back, it would make us gradually slow down if we need it. Not a whole right away thing like pressing back then "boom momentum gone." Think of Super Mario oldies. You'd run forward. Jump. But realize that you over-shot it and so you quickly press back in hopes of fixing your mistake.

Actually, this is pretty much how v10 (and Melee) works. If you hold back after jumping to do scale back the intensity of the jump. If need be I suppose we could have pressing back scale it back more, or scale it back faster etc.

B.W. · Feb 20, 2009

SHeLL said:
Actually, this is pretty much how v10 (and Melee) works. If you hold back after jumping to do scale back the intensity of the jump. If need be I suppose we could have pressing back scale it back more, or scale it back faster etc.

I knew that's how Melee worked, but I missed v10 and in this thread, codes get lost and mixed up like a toy box.

In Melee though. Didn't characters also have that little tid bit of control as a specific trait? (Ex. Jigglypuff being able to move pretty far left or right even out of a normal jump) Or am I just thinking incorrectly? I know how floaty a character was had to do with that movement as well. Being airborn longer obviously means you can float forward or backward further out of just standing there.

shanus · Feb 20, 2009

Darksonic, play Sonic with 80% momentum. Notice that only 1/6 of your fair hitbox will onnect through an opponent when you dash fair. Also note that dash uairs will never fully connect, etc etc. If you honestly think sonic plays BETTER w/ 80% momentum transfer over say 55% or so, please demonstrate with videos.

Edit: ZSS momentum was fine as normal with the rest of the cast. The only two true outlier I'd say now is Sonic.

Shell · Feb 20, 2009

Squirtle has a mediocre dash speed but a quick turn around (shellshifting) it'd be nifty if Squirtle could get a nice momentum boost from this.

Or, just keep it simple and boost his overall momentum. This would be very helpful in his general combo game and even more important edge-guarding game.

Jiangjunizzy · Feb 20, 2009

i fuond a really bad glitch. for a little while, your jumps will work with momentum, but as i played a bit more, within the match, my jumps got much longer. i'm not sure why. the only want to get it back to normal is to restart (the wii).

COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

Flute-Fox Only

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Dirty camper

Smash Hero

Smash Journeyman

Smash Hero

Smash Journeyman

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Journeyman

Smash Hero

Smash Journeyman

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Cadet

Smash Journeyman

Flute-Fox Only

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Flute-Fox Only

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Flute-Fox Only

Smash Lord

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