Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

i gotta agree with john, if only because i'm 1/3rd the reason he hates (gay)foxes

and whoever said marth's DD > peach's ground game is sorely mistaken. the correct answer is marth's dtilt > peach's ground game. but then she starts camping and floating and it becomes similar to sheik, except peach is slower moving which lets marth space a better. 55-45 or 60-40 for marth.

Sveet said:

i gotta agree with john, if only because i'm 1/3rd the reason he hates (gay)foxes

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LOL, I thought the same thing after reading how you thought Peach was such a hard matchup for Marth.

That's the hard thing about making these charts. Everybody has personal biases and different experiences to some extent so there's bound to be disagreement.

john9blue said:

That's the hard thing about making these charts. Everybody has personal biases and different experiences to some extent so there's bound to be disagreement.

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yup. but if you get lots and lots of data and opinions, patterns start to emerge.

x After Dawn x said:

topic change: is it true jiggs has the advantage on sheik? I remember a couple people saying they didn't feel comfortable doing the matchup with sheik, I think one of them was m2k. somebody bring up pros and cons for each character in the matchup? I don't really have much experience with it, but it would seem that jiggs outspaces sheik and can avoid her combos, namely anything > fair.

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KirbyKaze said:

Puff vs Sheik I don't really feel comfortable to give numbers. But for actual strategy, it's pretty simple.

Sheik can't approach with aerials because her aerial mobility and super high short hop suck for approaching Puff because of Puff jump back and duck.

Sheik can't approach from ground because she can't grab Puff because of duck (dash grab doesn't work on good Puffs fyi), her F-tilt has crap range on ducking Puff because of blind-spot, and her D-tilt has crap knockback so you can be crouch --> F-smashed for it.

If you D-smash she can shield the whole thing and aerial out of shield and get a free hit almost always even if you hit all 3 hits on her shield.

So Sheik just camps needles, camps platforms, and tries to sneak aerials in between Puff's because spacing aerials is really hard when you have bad aerial mobility and they have really good aerial mobility. Sheik's pretty limited against Puff. Fortunately, camping a projectile that beats moves and running back and forth is really good against Puff, though, so Sheik does okay just because of how gay her camping is.

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^basically all my sheik practice is against this guy, and most of his jiggs practice is against me, so we're probably going to say similar things =P anyway...

seems about even to me. jiggs has the same edge she has on a lot of top tiers: one uptilt or falling upair and you can take a stock. and jiggs has good edgeguarding on sheik...force her onstage to rest, or even to bair and grab edge again, at high enough percents (highish-mid?).

both have aerial range/priority, but jiggs can move so much farther horizontally in the air. sheik has spaced aerials and a projectile, mostly. she can't even techchase grab too reliably cause jiggs can crouch surprisingly quickly after her roll and techroll. BUT, when she does get a grab, jiggs dies from it after about 70% on non-dreamland stages.

so...

jiggs
- aerial mobility
- aerial range
- up-hitting-thing to rest
- edgehog to rest
- crouching a lot

sheik
- aerial range
- needles
- bair
- fair/bair/upair when jiggs commits to aerials and misses (or am i the only one who commits to stuff with jigglypuff? <_<)
- can actually kill jiggs with a grab

for matchup chart purposes...maybe 55/45 for jiggs? it's close enough that i think it could go in either direction.

Yeah from what I've played in the matchup, it also seems that Jigglypuff kills Sheik easily because of her superb edgeguarding. Once Sheik is offstage, it's almost a free stock for Jiggs, I believe.

55-45 for Jiggs sounds about right. Obviously Sheik can camp the matchup but it's not like Jiggs can't, so...idk. 50-50 also seems realistic given that Sheik has the advantage on stages (ban DL and Jiggs dies easy).

x After Dawn x said:

(ban DL and Jiggs dies easy).

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mute city, brinstar

I was thinking more Brinstar and KJ64, never seen a Jiggs cp Mute City on a Sheik, to be honest. I've seen the matchup on Brinstar though, doesn't seem like Sheik does that badly on it as opposed to spacies. But if it's a bo5 set, Jiggs might be in trouble if she reaches her second cp.

i might pick stadium as my 2nd counterpick. but that's more personal...i like platforms, but the triangle setup is good for sheik to camp with. stadium seems like a good compromise. plus that matchup can get pretty boring so at least stadium will give you some sort of variety =P

lol, i love how peach and shiek players think fox is untouchable.

the thread it matters in was closed but i just wanted to say that i think i was the only dude who nominated ihavespaceballs for the back room

and he totally made it and i didnt

meaning i have incredible amounts of influence and none at all

not mad, just think its funny

see you guys later

Blatt Blvd said:

lol, i love how peach and shiek players think fox is untouchable.

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I think with Sheik versus Fox, you just have to get Fox off stage. >_>

Lots of baiting.


At BigD: Wait what?

lol bigd you're so cool. i'm surprised they didn't take anyone from the MW though....

keeper i think you have the matchup confused with vs falco or that maybe you're playing as marth. sheik doesn't really gimp fox that well (thanks to the fire), and she has a much harder time edgeguarding than other characters do. the ONLY thing that works consistantly is pretending you're CF and SH fairing the firefox. if you try to ftilt the firefox you usually get burned which gets them back on the stage.

Sveet you may have to get creative at times, but Sheik really does have a lot of effective ways to kill Fox once he's offstage.

yea, but its not as easy as it sounds. id say like 30% chance for a kill. thats really low if you consider that you have like 85% against falco and about 70% against marth.

Percentages..

actually i take that back, its probably like 60% for fox but its hard to get him off unless he messes up and lets you grab him by the edge.

Sveet, I actually just remembered that this list is based off neutral stages only, meaning Sheik should have the advantage on every stage but DL. Ban DL, and gg Jiggs lol.

lol wtf? this list should cover all legitimate tournament stages.... though i guess that kinda makes sense.

Idea said:

for matchup chart purposes...maybe 55/45 for jiggs? it's close enough that i think it could go in either direction.

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with all due respect, i gotta disagree with the canadians. i disagree with KK on sheik on other stuff too, but i know he's good. it's probably just a difference in style, opinion, and theory.

idea, if KK beats you most of the time...how can you tell if jiggs has an advantage? moreover, that 55-45 is the same numbers for ice climbers vs sheik, or fox vs sheik. and you would be saying that dk and sheik do just as well against puff. there is no way that it's 55 for jiggs. 60-40 for sheik all dai.

for sheik, the matchup is like all about the shield game and weaving thru puff's aerials. the spacing game is not bad at all. needle camping is not reliable, and i don't recommend it at all. puff can duck under the needle storm or float above it. s

to me, puff's game is all about edgeguarding, rests, not getting grabbed. i'm surprised idea doesn't think this. nothing he has on sheik is guaranteed. IMO, a good puff will always try to get sheik off the stage.

Ok, ganon isnt even matchup with marth. in fact, i dont think i've ever seen a ganon win against marth bfor . srsly b/c ganon is slow, and lower range, and doesn't have a chaingrab on marth so its probably a 65-35 for marth.

Edit: saw some videos, im wrong -.-

Scar said:

i'm not saying perfect, i'm just saying like the best that marth can possibly be played right now, i.e. not screwing up. there aren't many very good marths out there atm but the ones that don't make stupid mistakes generally beat falcon players (all of us)

idk i still say stadium is in falcons favor but its prob pretty even, fd is even, battlefield is even. marths are afraid of CF on FD idk why but i guess so.

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Its because they've seen the triple knee video. Fear is falcons game.

yea i havent really seen a reason why CF beats marth... i've played the MU a lot vs people that are better than me and we go about even. edge game is **** from 0%, marth's sword out ranges falcon and falcon's game is mostly lag punishing. if the marth doesn't get out played, he shouldn't be wiffing much and the MU would be even-ish

raychun1 said:

with all due respect, i gotta disagree with the canadians. i disagree with KK on sheik on other stuff too, but i know he's good. it's probably just a difference in style, opinion, and theory.

idea, if KK beats you most of the time...how can you tell if jiggs has an advantage? moreover, that 55-45 is the same numbers for ice climbers vs sheik, or fox vs sheik. and you would be saying that dk and sheik do just as well against puff. there is no way that it's 55 for jiggs. 60-40 for sheik all dai.

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he beats me most of the time anyway cause he's better than me. but he beats me by less than others who are similarly good at the game, so i'm trying to account for the gap in player skill. also i think a lot of jiggs mains feel that it's in her favour, so i'm working that in too. but it's the kind of matchup where i'd be fine with 6-4 in either direction.

as for other matchups...i am by no means an authority on any of those =P i really only know jiggs well enough to talk with any degree of confidence about her. i might never have played ICs-sheik.

i find dk pretty easy, but there aren't really any dk mains here (pkmvodka lives too far away). just C_3 and i think he's usually fooling around, at least in part. off the top of my head i'd probably put dk-jiggs at like...6-4 or worse. between jiggs' bair, silly rest combos, and dk's laughable shield, i don't see how dk has a chance at all.

anyway, if i were to go just on how the matchup FEELS to me, i'd put it as sheik winning 55-45. but people's feelings are not a reliable indicator of anything.

oh, and more specifically:

raychun1 said:

for sheik, the matchup is like all about the shield game and weaving thru puff's aerials. the spacing game is not bad at all. needle camping is not reliable, and i don't recommend it at all. puff can duck under the needle storm or float above it.

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yeah, sounds about right. needle camping isn't something to be relied on by sheik, but more something to do whenever she has the chance. the few % it gives you can really add up on jiggs. sheik pretty much needs a platform for this.

raychun1 said:

to me, puff's game is all about edgeguarding, rests, not getting grabbed. i'm surprised idea doesn't think this. nothing he has on sheik is guaranteed. IMO, a good puff will always try to get sheik off the stage.

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yeah, this sounds right too. when did i disagree with this =P those things are very important, but really hard to get going if sheik is spacing effectively and keeping her distance. but still. every time i get a falling upair on KK i get a rest out of it. that's pretty debilitating. she spends the whole match bairing and needling jiggs, gradually building the percent, and all of a sudden she dies at, like, 40.

edgeguarding is probably even better but for some reason i still suck at it, so i can't comment on that as much. seems to work well for other jiggs' in the matchup.

...SO in conclusion. pretty even matchup. mostly a spacing war, and jiggs wins in the non-spacing areas.

Sveet said:

yea, but its not as easy as it sounds. id say like 30% chance for a kill. thats really low if you consider that you have like 85% against falco and about 70% against marth.

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Sveet said:

actually i take that back, its probably like 60% for fox but its hard to get him off unless he messes up and lets you grab him by the edge.

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Dude, even at 0% it's 50 / 50 for sheik to hit you. The only way for fox to survive a gimp after being thrown off the stage, is if she gets called for what she's going to do. I personally think that this matchup is even, but that is my own bias and the chart isn't about me.

If she does a SH b-air, it covers him trying to double jump -> air dodge, while covering him going low to double jump sweetspot. He has to jump back and illusion onto the stage. If she just stands there and d-smashes though, then your screwed. To hopefully avoid that, you have to double jump sweetspot, or you can try to do a quick air dodge behind her and hope she messes up I guess. SH needle also stops jump back -> illusion and quick double jump -> air dodge.

Out of all the sheiks I've played, KK is the only one who can sometimes get a gimp on me. Probably because we play on a regular basis. In a serious match, I try not to go to the edge, since he goes there a lot, but sometimes, I'll get tech chased really hard and be forced to go to the ledge, or I sometimes mess up while pressuring at the edge, or he calls me and evades my attack, which leads to a gimp opportunity. Sometimes I try going lower and hope that he runs into the fire, though it's obviously not reliable, but the random times I use it, it seems to work unless I get called for it and they take the ledge. It also won't work most of the time if you're playing on stadium or battlefield. Shine stalling is pretty good sometimes, to try and trick sheik in the air.

Of all the matchups that I have the most experience in, it's definitely fox vs sheik, fox ditto, the marios v fox, and fox / doc v marth. I play against fox and sheik vs Raynex and KK on a regular basis. They may not be the best players, but they are pretty **** good. I want more ganon, falco, and falcon practice right now.

strawhats said:

I had no idea marth's could Ledge cancel the landing lag after an up B. Also perfect marth's are almost non existent now a days. M2k played near perfect back in 06-07.

Id love to see m2k vs. SS

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Didnt you post this exact thing in the as Cactuar thread? Did you just find out, again?

x After Dawn x said:

how are you part of the SBR, honestly.

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With quotes like this I can see how ur not

KirbyKaze said:

Marth as Peach's worst matchup makes more sense than most of what's been posted in this thread.

Marth's dash dance > Peach on the ground.
Marth's sword > Peach in the air.

Don't do moves when you're not supposed to, guys.

.

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Idk, but I think that peach marth is not that bad. I think fox is much worse. Reason being, that her high priority of moves still applies with good spacing on peachs part.

Marth:
Her dash attack clanks with fsmash, and fairs.

Nair oos is good for dealing with marth being too close.

Although they are slow, she does have projectiles that are effective against offstage marths and aerial marths.

Her projectiles can be momentum breakers/tide turners

She does typically have decent ability to kill with Fthrow.

Downsmash ***** which adds to her CC game.

She can edgeguard offstage without having to worry about dying from marths fair or side B

Armada beat m2k lol

Fox:
Hes much faster

Nairs ****, good knockback and high priority

Upsmash kills at low percents

upthrow uair kills at low percents and racks up damage

Fox can camp the **** outta peach and even reflect the garbage she throws

His recovery is more predicatle than marths but hes got alot more distance and with good DI more chances to recover from being edgeguarded.

Lots of invincible edgeguards and speed plus the shine to edgehog

I just think fox does better against peach than marth

the BEST option is to sweetspot with your jump. sh bair doesn't cover that. the only thing sheik can do to stop that is take the edge herself. if fox goes high with the jump or air dodges, its over. any other option you can cover though.

if you don't take the edge you can cover every option besides 2nd jump to the edge.

if fox shine stalls and waits for you to do something, he can react and not get gimped.

x After Dawn x said:

how are you part of the SBR, honestly.

topic change: is it true jiggs has the advantage on sheik? I remember a couple people saying they didn't feel comfortable doing the matchup with sheik, I think one of them was m2k. somebody bring up pros and cons for each character in the matchup? I don't really have much experience with it, but it would seem that jiggs outspaces sheik and can avoid her combos, namely anything > fair.

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When I asked M2K at ROM, he said the jiggs v sheik is 7-3 for jiggs. Obviously I disagree, but jiggs is mad gay.

Umbreon said:

peach's worst match is easily marth

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I agree.

Blatt Blvd said:

wow, i just realized marth loses to c fal >.o

i thought the general consensus was marth wins.

was this changed recently??

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Cactuar is the only marth main that says this matchup is even. I agree with him. Everyone other than the marth mains think that marth wins the matchup, or it's even. cactuar also says that he's really gay to falcon. I want to see him play against one soon with marth.

Scar said:

i agree with these things but like that's not the point of a matchup chart

the matchup as posted in an official smashboards certified chart should reflect the match at the highest level of play using all the skill and strategies players have discovered and are capable of thus far

so for example marth should never approach falcon so aggressive marths DON'T KNOW the vs CF matchup so who cares if falcon beats aggressive marths?

i think CF vs marth is practically even, i think marth has an easier time getting hits and good marths have a very easy time getting CF off the edge, and marth kills CF almost 100% of the time off the ledge, but similarly if the marth ever messes up he can quite possibly get killed for getting hit ever

if marth never messes up he outspaces CF and can put enough spatial pressure on him to force him to approach, so if i were to put a number on it with near-perfect play (minimal human error ever) i'd say marth definitely wins at least 60-40

but practically the matchup is even (stage dependent, CF wins on DL64 and Stadium, Marth wins on YS and FoD)

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I think that defensive marth at worst goes even with falcon. Marth has really easy tech chasing on falcon, then ****s him in the ear off stage. To balance it out, falcon has death combos and fairly easy edgeguarding himself. When I talked to M2K on AIM about why he thinks that it's 6-4 for falcon, he said "combos to death, BBL".

Marth has his own share of good combos on falcon after 30%.

Strong_Bad said:

lolol @ armada being an example
all of the foxes he played at genesis didn't play how they should have played (except for lunin, though he isn't an exceptional Fox). jman, maybe colbol, and I guess M2K's fox are the foxes that we should be taking a look at vs. peach, but it seems M2K prefers to use Marth since his Fox has gotten worse (in his opinion) over time. pc chris' fox probably would have done pretty well too, just because he's the epitome of offensive fox.
raynex is pretty good too.

it's fox advantage.

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I was disappointed that Lucky could've won the set, but he NEVER EVER sweetspotted the ledge with firefox. Instead he either tried to go above him, or at him and got punished a lot of times. Fox has his gay *** invincible ledge WD, so it's a guaranteed recovery onto the stage if you get the ledge, unless human error comes into play. I'm sure he's technical enough to do it though.

Fox definitely beats peach 6-4 at worst. His laser camp and platform camp are too good vs her slow speed. She is ridiculous when she hits fox, but the problem is camping fox. I think she wins the matchup is fox is agressive, especially if she is defensive, but fox's defensive play really makes all the difference in this matchup. He can combo her off of shine for 30% and his up-smash kills her between 75% - 100% depending on the stage, whereas peach has to to build damage, then knock him off the stage, then edgeguard him. Her approach / camp are hard to punish and can result into serious damage or fox being puf off the stage, so she really forces fox (like any other character besides marth) to camp her. Her moves are fast + float cancel and the have ridiculous priority. She also gets a GC on FD.

Sveet said:

the BEST option is to sweetspot with your jump. sh bair doesn't cover that. the only thing sheik can do to stop that is take the edge herself. if fox goes high with the jump or air dodges, its over. any other option you can cover though.

if you don't take the edge you can cover every option besides 2nd jump to the edge.

if fox shine stalls and waits for you to do something, he can react and not get gimped.

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you can clip fox if you do a SHFF b-air when he tries to double jump -> sweetspot. Alternatively, you can WD -> b-air for the same result. I also forgot to mention that if sheik just stands there, you can shorten illusion maybe.

unknown522 said:

When I asked M2K at ROM, he said the jiggs v sheik is 7-3 for jiggs. Obviously I disagree, but jiggs is mad gay.

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looooooool

Sveet said:

i gotta agree with john, if only because i'm 1/3rd the reason he hates (gay)foxes

and whoever said marth's DD > peach's ground game is sorely mistaken. the correct answer is marth's dtilt > peach's ground game. but then she starts camping and floating and it becomes similar to sheik, except peach is slower moving which lets marth space a better. 55-45 or 60-40 for marth.

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Okay, this is completely inaccurate, minus the D-tilt thing. D-tilt is very good against Peach's grund game. However, dash dance is also incredibly good because Peach sucks at dealing with Marth's movement pressure.

Her fast moves have horrible range, and coupled with her abysmal ground speed she doesn't have the power to get a good rush-down going on Marth.

Dash attack is good for getting into people's space but it's easy to counter, or out-space via dash dance, and it's also extremely punishable. Or you could just D-tilt, and wait, with good spacing.

Camping veggies is not the answer because in the time it takes for her to pluck a turnip a dash dancing Marth can very easily grab her.

Floating is countered by jumping at her and doing sword moves. When Peach is airborne, she's very, very stuck against Marth.

She doesn't have a good answer to a Marth that camps properly at "close" range.

oh i agree with everything you said

Provided that's not sarcasm (tone on the internet is not obvious), I'm very surprised that you think Peach / Marth is so close then.

I really don't find Peach comparable to Sheik at all in the matchup, from talking to Vwins, Cactuar, and a whole bunch of Peaches and Marths. Sheik has very, very good edgeguarding on Marth and the means to do inescapable bull**** edgeguards, stupid throw combos, a faster projectile (faster being the operative word) and the range / speed combination to play a very strong defensive game.

Peach has nothing comparable, except for arguably a superior dash attack, but even that's kind of a meh argument because she doesn't have the speed to support it.

Her edgeguarding isn't real edgeguarding, most of the time, it's usually just trying to make it difficult for him to come back from the ledge to the stage. It's not guaranteed at all, because of Marth's options from the ledge (no perfect ledgedash like Sheik and Fox but he has a sword and other crap and his ledgedash isn't even THAT bad) whereas Peach's options from the ledge are worse than Marth's by a lot and she can be edgeguarded like a normal character too, and if she lives she's probably taken like 40+ damage and that sucks.

@ Kaostar, Peach vs Fox is dumb because she actually can't hit him enough times to win on a bunch of levels but on the other levels where she can, she can make his head explode once she gets inside. Provided, of course, that the Fox is camping and being gay. If Fox approaches, he's fighting an evenish matchup because Peach defensively vs not-Marth is pretty good.

The bulk of your "Marth isn't as good" points, though, can largely be answered by "dash dance better" or "space better". Crouch cancel D-smash blows against Marth. He's never going to be close enough for that to work. Same goes for Nair out of shield. F-throw isn't a good KO move, unless KO at 150% is now considered a good KO move.

@ Raychun1 it's just a dumb matchup because of how much of a grind it is and how Sheik has to play so conservatively to keep a lead. If Puff gets ahead, Puff camping back is really, really hard to deal with because of how crap Sheik is at approaching her. I don't really know numbers, but being able to be Rested out of your only reasonable KO move (grab) because they do what they always do (duck), is pretty balls. Also, Uair combos to Rest on Sheik really easily with Puff.

i meant it seriously.

but peach can edge guard marth well, especially if they know how to aim turnips (something armada does well, and certain peach players have been picking up).

scenario: peach hits marth off the stage far enough that she can pull a turnip and he cant get back to the edge with his jump.

peach throws the turnip and it would hit marth. his options are basically get hit, jump, or attack the turnip.

marth's recovery is only good because of his floatiness, sideb and because if he saves his jump he can leave lots of options open. the turnip really stops a lot of his options, even if he can make it back to the stage with his upb (assuming peach edge hogs) peach can still dsmash for another edge guard (or mix it up with something else if they start CCing to try to get double hit back on the stage)

Air catch ftw.

I agree that, provided she forces him to go low, she can edgeguard him really well.

I feel, though, that this happens infrequently amongst good players because Peach's moves send you at a very recoverable trajectory and turnips can be caught. Normally the sheer knockback is enough on most characters to create edgeguard situations, but Marth is special because of his float Side-B. He often doesn't need to use his jump to make it back onto the stage, and this is a problem when Peach then has to do mixups to even have a chance of hitting him off.

I suppose it should be then the Peach's job to pressure the ledge properly, but doing so is difficult against Marth as Peach if the Marth is smart. I guess it then can be argued "Peach can just trick Marth on recovery", but then so can Marth and then it loops so oh well.

Meanwhile, Marth edgeguarding Peach has to do, literally, none of that. Except maybe the ledgepressure bit if he screws up, but then that's easy because all of Peach's animations getting off the ledge are really unique (read: obvious), and she has no invincible ledgedash (or ledgehop, for that matter).

I think M2K is the only marth who air catches

Wobbles does too.

Granted, it's ICs, but he still does it.

Most people just don't see it coming, and don't have any practice / experience learning to deal with them. If a Marth player is trying to return and he sees a turnip coming his way, he's most likely going to

a) jump out of the way to avoid it
b) jump into fair to hit the turnip
c) if he's in the right position, side B the turnip
d) get owned by turnip

x After Dawn x said:

Most people just don't see it coming, and don't have any practice / experience learning to deal with them. If a Marth player is trying to return and he sees a turnip coming his way, he's most likely going to try to

a) jump out of the way to avoid it
b) jump into fair to hit the turnip
c) if he's in the right position, side B the turnip
d) get owned by turnip

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Seeing how turnips go through Marth's side B, I'd imagine that would fall under "D". Unless you're referring to using the float of side B to go over the turnip, in which case nevermind.

Purely because nobody does it, I'd accept that he can get screwed if he's in a position to be hit by turnips but even then he's not completely defenseless against them and he also has to be positioned low enough for Peach to hit him with them. I'm not sure that's really a limitation of Marth or anything, but oh well.

Strong_Bad said:

man i love playing super theory bros.

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soooooo true coming from you.