Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

Falco400 said:

We were using the build from the 4th, the Dthrow for some reason even though DI'd down and away could still follow-up and Cape could regrab me even when I was Wario. PK Fire was broken in the Sep. 4th Ness build (from yesterday). I held shield as DDD during it and couldn't PS it at all because it lifted me above the ground.

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The fourth?

Whose build was this? Shanus'?

CountKaiser said:

The fourth?

Whose build was this? Shanus'?

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Yeah shanus's.

Magus420 said:

Hex editor.


Edit: One more time. If this doesn't work (I doubt it will with the angle it has) then I'm pretty certain the hitbox data for his bombs is not within his .pac file. Either that, or the hitbox is secretly normal/slash element and not fire. Remember to let the bomb explode in your hand as well.

http://www.mediafire.com/?nga2g2q2djk

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matt4300 said:

T_T nothing... I tested.. dont give up...

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Check the Common3.pac. It's where the textures for Link's bombs, Snake's box and more is located so maybe the hitbox data for these props is there too.

You can summon Link's bomb even if Link is not loaded, so it shouldn't be in Link's file.

You can? How?

^^Prop hacks lets you load a different prop instead of the normal one. For example, you can have Diddy's popgun shoot grenades.

The same goes for anything else in the common3 file, including Snake's grenades, box, Diddy's peanuts, Peach's turnips, etc.

Too bad PSA doesn't work for it yet, but there may be a clue in the the routine, action, or subaction of that move that reveals what offset that prop is located in the common3pac.

I'll look into this in the morning.

Ill just leave this here and let you guys decide what it means.
http://i28.tinypic.com/2cfa1ar.png

Are you doing an open-source version of PSA or something?

If so, figure out why Dedede and whoever else doesn't work, please! :D

Right now I am having a problem where I can decode everything that PSA can display but I can't figure out how PSA figures out where the data is in the .pac files.

Its still a long way off from being done, and I have no clue why those other characters don't work in normal PSA, as I haven't had any problem with them yet, I can even decode the pokemontrainer's pac file

Either way, I totally guessed it.

I'm assuming that, like PSA, you'll have external .txt files or something similar where we can store what the values do? It'd be even better if you used the same format that PSA does, so that they'd be cross-compatible.

Either way, good lookin' so far.

Dantarion said:

Right now I am having a problem where I can decode everything that PSA can display but I can't figure out how PSA figures out where the data is in the .pac files.

Its still a long way off from being done, and I have no clue why those other characters don't work in normal PSA, as I haven't had any problem with them yet, I can even decode the pokemontrainer's pac file

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Any chance I will be able to run this on my Linux machine? i.e. are you using C# / the .NET framework?

I just found out something weird about PSA that might seriously effect Brawl+.

When you edit the length of an action, PSA seems to take the space for the action that space and fill it with "0xFADEF00D" and places the real action someplace else. Otherwise, all the offset related things in the entire file would have to be adjusted for the action length change.

Thats all fine and dandy, but this means that editing a single .pac file over and over isn't the same as making all the changes at once.

For example, I resaved Mario's .pac with PSA.
The file is different, but the exact same size.
I then added a NOP command to one of Mario's actions, which should add on about 8 bytes or so to the file. It added 256 bytes.

I may be wrong about this, but this could become a problem in a future.

By default, Mario's .pac contains the hex string 0xFADE 0 times.
Resaving Mario's .pac makes the hex string appear 1 time without any modifications.
Adding a NOP made it appear a total of 59 times.
The current Brawl+ FitMario.pac contains 0xFADE a total of 373 times.
EDIT: And Fox who just got that fancy JC shine now has 737 counts of 0xFADEF00D, making for 5kb of uneeded data, which is about 3% of the moveset portion of his file.

Kind of like how me editing a different move, and then changing it back made the second move not work anymore?

So if we just write down what we did and make all the changes on a brand new .pac, will that make everything fine?

GameSystem said:

So if we just write down what we did and make all the changes on a brand new .pac, will that make everything fine?

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Technically, yes.

zxeon said:

Fox shouldn't be eating so much FADEF00D in one sitting.

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I lol'd

Shadic said:

Kind of like how me editing a different move, and then changing it back made the second move not work anymore?

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This might be a related bug in PSA

Falco400 said:

The ONLY character gayer then Ness is Wario, which is getting some nice nerfs in the next build which will be released soon.

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what? why is wario gay? and why does he warrant nerfs? he'll be hit hard by the airdodge changes anyway... imo he's one of the few characters that has to work really hard for his combos (no self comboing uptilt/uair, no priority/range), and after low percents most of them only consist of 2 hits... please elaborate

on another note, does anybody still care about the pal community? we only got onenightly after 4.2 official, and it neither worked properly nor did we get a text file... btw, i also asked in the pal thread, but no response...

weinzey said:

what? why is wario gay? and why does he warrant nerfs? he'll be hit hard by the airdodge changes anyway... imo he's one of the few characters that has to work really hard for his combos (no self comboing uptilt/uair, no priority/range), and after low percents most of them only consist of 2 hits... please elaborate

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By gay, I mean he is centralized around one strategy and everyone pretty much plays him the same way as there is no other reason to play him differently. All Wario ever needs to do is double jump and air dodge away to fake people out or double jump and do x aerial until you find an opening in which once he gets inside, he'll do about... 34%-40% just off of Dair and Uair combos. His Uair does 17% and chaining it twice does 34% and add in a fart and he's already done about 40% or more (don't remember how much fart does right now). And that's only off of doing two moves.

Then we have Dair, it's SDIable but actually pretty hard to do so. This does 16% and is one of Wario's most used aerials for the fact that it's safe on block (weave in and out) and does a lot of damage. There's no reason to not use this move, at all. It completely overshadows Fair and Bair, which both only have situational uses. The only other aerial that has about as much use as Uair and Dair have is Nair which leads into bite and Fsmash easily. What we've done to Wario so far is toned down Uair to 15% and Dair to 14% so he doesn't do nearly as much damage with Uair and Dair.

The next problem with him is Fsmash, the SA on it allows him to get away with just simply spamming it after a spot dodge and you really can't stop him from doing it. It's safe on shield and KOs a lot of characters earlier than most other smash attacks that are slower than his. It's a good smash attack after every aerial, so like I do Dair past their shield to go behind them and then I'll Fsmash them and either hit them or hit their shield and make them take a lot of shield damage and get pushed forward so I can't be punished. What we've done to his Fsmash right now isn't a heavy nerf, it just tones down the SA making it so moves 10% or below can't hit him out of it, so Ike's tilts and Snake's second Ftilt hit CAN hit him out of it but, things like lasers and jabs can't. This makes his Fsmash not nearly as good because he can't just spam it or use it without much thought otherwise he will eat a smash attack against him, get grabbed, or get tilted depending on the damage. It's a fair nerf, tbh, because you have to remember he's top 3 in vBrawl so in a game where there's combos he has to be better overall. So the only way to nerf him, without hitting him too hard or changing his playstyle completely was some damage nerfs and toning down Fsmash without taking away its KO power and/or adding lag onto it or more startup onto it.

He warrants the nerfs because all you really have to do with him to win are Dair and Uair, with Fsmash and some grab combos. And not many characters have answers to Wario's Dair and Uair unless they have range on him. I mean Wario is obviously top 10, so if Fox got damage nerfs and Squirtle got damage nerfs, with everyone thinking they are top 10 then why shouldn't Wario if his playstyle is centralized around those 2 aerials?

Basically the idea was to nerf him without getting rid of the playstyle so that when he Fsmashes the Wario realizes he can't get away with it that much anymore and he'll start doing something differently from his aerials like using Fart more or killing with Ftilt instead. And maybe with the damage nerfs he'll start to use his other aerials a little more. If these nerfs aren't enough, then we'll probably just lower the damage some more on Uair and Dair and then see how that goes.

What use does bair and fair have over uair and dair?

If the damage nerf doesn't change the bair and fair usefulness, you have failed.

CountKaiser said:

What use does bair and fair have over uair and dair?

If the damage nerf doesn't change the bair and fair usefulness, you have failed.

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Right now, Bair can be used at high %s as a keep away move. It out prioritizes a lot of aerials and ground moves and has a really nice big hitbox. It knocks people offstage much better than Dair does and has a bigger hitbox (and longer one) than Uair. It can also push shields pretty well too because he can weave in and out. But again, it's only really good at higher %s. Fair, on the other hand, does low damage (about 7%) CAN lead into bite and combo into other aerials at certain %s. And it can be used to edgeguard characters offstage depending on their recovery, like Ness for example, Wario can just Fair Ness and Ness pretty much can't recover.

I'm thinking that, Dair should really do 12% and not 14% and Uair should do 14% instead. But, I want to see how the damage nerfs do and how the heavy armor on Fsmash does. The damage nerfs may not make him vary his move set, I realize that, but at that very same time I don't want to buff his Dtilt or Utilt because these nerfs here don't warrant any trade-offs.

Dant, i'd be interested to learn how many 0xFADEs are in some of the PSA mods, especially wisp, roy, and mewtwo.

Also, does anybody, else think bowsers sa being on crawl and not crouch is kinda useless?

+1 to SA crouch.

+1 to SA crouch.

And wouldn't dair doing less damage make it an even more stupidly good combo move due to the fact that it would have less KB?

Falco400 said:

The next problem with him is Fsmash, the SA on it allows him to get away with just simply spamming it after a spot dodge and you really can't stop him from doing it. It's safe on shield and KOs a lot of characters earlier than most other smash attacks that are slower than his. It's a good smash attack after every aerial, so like I do Dair past their shield to go behind them and then I'll Fsmash them and either hit them or hit their shield and make them take a lot of shield damage and get pushed forward so I can't be punished. What we've done to his Fsmash right now isn't a heavy nerf, it just tones down the SA making it so moves 10% or below can't hit him out of it, so Ike's tilts and Snake's second Ftilt hit CAN hit him out of it but, things like lasers and jabs can't. This makes his Fsmash not nearly as good because he can't just spam it or use it without much thought otherwise he will eat a smash attack against him, get grabbed, or get tilted depending on the damage. It's a fair nerf, tbh, because you have to remember he's top 3 in vBrawl so in a game where there's combos he has to be better overall. So the only way to nerf him, without hitting him too hard or changing his playstyle completely was some damage nerfs and toning down Fsmash without taking away its KO power and/or adding lag onto it or more startup onto it.

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Iunno, I think his fsmash is easy enough to punish as it is. You just have to spotdodge it instead of shield it when you see it coming.

Falco400 said:

Right now, Bair can be used at high %s as a keep away move. It out prioritizes a lot of aerials and ground moves and has a really nice big hitbox. It knocks people offstage much better than Dair does and has a bigger hitbox (and longer one) than Uair.

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I know the animation of bair makes it look like it, but I'm pretty sure when I tested this a long time ago in vBrawl the hitbox actually does not linger at all.

MK26 said:

Also, does anybody, else think bowsers sa being on crawl and not crouch is kinda useless?

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I agree with you just because Crawl SA doesn't really make logical sense without Crouch SA.

SymphonicSage12 said:

And wouldn't dair doing less damage make it an even more stupidly good combo move due to the fact that it would have less KB?

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We can compensate KB ... I assume that's what we're doing.

JCaesar said:

Iunno, I think his fsmash is easy enough to punish as it is. You just have to spotdodge it instead of shield it when you see it coming.

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I know I felt the same way for a long time. But, the move has pretty quick start up and he can do it after just about any aerial. Nair and Dair are most notorious for being able to Fsmash right after. I think it's an appropriate nerf because not even DK's Donkey Punch can be used in the same way Wario's Fsmash can, you know what I mean? Sakurai basically gave it SA because of how strong the move is in Wario's games when that really doesn't translate well into balance. It's better than nerfing its KOability and making Wario use Uair, Fart, or Bair more for his kills. And it's a much better nerf than nerfing its damage and such. It just makes the move less ******** against strong tilts and smashes.

Plus, Wario has jab > Fsmash, which is a really ******** easy KO combo... the heavy armor would at least give you the chance to hit him after you've SDI'd the jab.

Obviously if this nerf isn't good enough we can always take it back to regular SA and nerf its KB. I just felt that this was the right way to do it without not hitting him enough or hitting him too hard in nerfs. We've overnerfed people before, I don't want to do that to Wario which is why I didn't go for a KB nerf.

We can compensate KB ... I assume that's what we're doing.

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Yes, it's a given that when we do damage nerfs we compensate KB, that's how it's always worked since we found out that damage and KB go hand in hand.

I see....so we're removing the SA on his fsmash in exchange for heavy armor?

SymphonicSage12 said:

I see....so we're removing the SA on his fsmash in exchange for heavy armor?

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Yes, heavy armor with 10% attacks or lower, so Snake's first hit of Ftilt doesn't beat it out but the second hit does (as the first hit does 8%).

Okay. That sounds reasonable...

and I've been getting freezes on the SSS just suddenly... and it's never really happened before.... @_@

JCaesar said:

Iunno, I think his fsmash is easy enough to punish as it is. You just have to spotdodge it instead of shield it when you see it coming.

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It is easy enough to punish as is unless you are Bowser.

Lrn2fortress OoS.

goodoldganon said:

It is easy enough to punish as is unless you are Bowser.

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Even so, jab > Fsmash is really friggin' good because of the SA on Fsmash so even if you SDI it right ready to hit him before he does Fsmash, you'll likely hit his Fsmash SA frames and then get hit anyway. It just makes the move less dumb without hurting it too much. It's like taking Snake's Ftilt and making it do less damage and compensating the KB but to a much higher degree of a nerf which is just below lowering its KB.

SA on a smash attack is a little awkward, you don't see anyone else with that, not even Ike who has a slower Fsmash than Wario does. It's making it more balanced because of how quick the startup is. It is punishable with a spot dodge, yes, but taking away its SA and giving it heavy armor isn't that hard of a nerf, wouldn't you agree?

^Squirtle...
But Wario's fsmash, even without the super armour, is very good. There are several ways to nerf it:

Nerf the SA
More winddown
Less damage, Compensate KB > Less shield stun > more punishable on shield

Personally I think less damage might work better.

timothyung said:

^Squirtle...
But Wario's fsmash, even without the super armour, is very good. There are several ways to nerf it:

Nerf the SA
More winddown
Less damage, Compensate KB > Less shield stun > more punishable on shield

Personally I think less damage might work better.

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Let's just see how HA goes, mmmkay?

Falco400 said:

By gay, I mean he is centralized around one strategy and everyone pretty much plays him the same way as there is no other reason to play him differently. All Wario ever needs to do is double jump and air dodge away to fake people out or double jump and do x aerial until you find an opening in which once he gets inside, he'll do about... 34%-40% just off of Dair and Uair combos. His Uair does 17% and chaining it twice does 34% and add in a fart and he's already done about 40% or more (don't remember how much fart does right now). And that's only off of doing two moves.

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damage nerfs sound reasonable, as it's the only way to keep his playstyle the same it is, so i kinda agree with that (though i would start with just nerfing upair first and see how that works out, since if u weave in and out with dair it does only 10-12dmg). fart is used for killing and not for damage racking. and upair doesnt chain very well on non heavies/fflers. u basically have to hit them at 0% or with ffling the clap while they are grounded, which is risky most of the time.

Then we have Dair, it's SDIable but actually pretty hard to do so. This does 16% and is one of Wario's most used aerials for the fact that it's safe on block (weave in and out) and does a lot of damage. There's no reason to not use this move, at all. It completely overshadows Fair and Bair, which both only have situational uses. The only other aerial that has about as much use as Uair and Dair have is Nair which leads into bite and Fsmash easily. What we've done to Wario so far is toned down Uair to 15% and Dair to 14% so he doesn't do nearly as much damage with Uair and Dair.

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that's just wrong.
a) fair is great for baiting and poking, great for comboing offstage/getting them offstage, has more range than dair (though it's not much, that's a huge plus for wario), trades hits with high priority attacks (which priceless against luigi fi) and combos into grab at certain percents.
bair is a great move against marth and other chars that outrange wario since combined with his air movement it has a lot of (pseudo) range. it is also great for finishing people off offstage.
btw, bair is also safe on shield if u autocancel it after weaving out.
nair is a great combo (as u mentioned) and gimping move.
b) less damage on dair/upair wont cause u to use fair/bair more, since they only do 7%/10% which obviously is still less
c) there arennt many characters that use their aerials to the extent wario does. look at g&w fi. he does very well in the air, but nair and bair are his staple moves, while fair and dair are rather situational, but there's nothing wrong with that. heck, wario uses 3 of his aerials all the time, 1 (fair) still reularly and the last one (bair) depending on the matchup. that's veryversatile imo

The next problem with him is Fsmash, the SA on it allows him to get away with just simply spamming it after a spot dodge and you really can't stop him from doing it. It's safe on shield and KOs a lot of characters earlier than most other smash attacks that are slower than his. It's a good smash attack after every aerial, so like I do Dair past their shield to go behind them and then I'll Fsmash them and either hit them or hit their shield and make them take a lot of shield damage and get pushed forward so I can't be punished. What we've done to his Fsmash right now isn't a heavy nerf, it just tones down the SA making it so moves 10% or below can't hit him out of it, so Ike's tilts and Snake's second Ftilt hit CAN hit him out of it but, things like lasers and jabs can't. This makes his Fsmash not nearly as good because he can't just spam it or use it without much thought otherwise he will eat a smash attack against him, get grabbed, or get tilted depending on the damage. It's a fair nerf, tbh, because you have to remember he's top 3 in vBrawl so in a game where there's combos he has to be better overall. So the only way to nerf him, without hitting him too hard or changing his playstyle completely was some damage nerfs and toning down Fsmash without taking away its KO power and/or adding lag onto it or more startup onto it.

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first i have to say, sa on fsmash is very unique to wario and thus should be left alone imo (but that's more of a personal opinion than anything else).
second, fsmash is very punushable if u predict it or dodge it. it has tons of lag after it has hit. and if ryoko (no offense) can call zelda's usmash balanced (clearly an anti-air move) because it isn't safe on shields, then wario's fsmash (which is his only good smash btw - except for dacus, but that's relatively situational compared to other usmashes) definetely not op.
due to its winddown lag it cant be spammed mindlessly if ur opponent knows the matchup. slikvik even does it in the wrong direction on purpose if he thinks hey can react in time.
and third, removing the sa wont reduce fsmash usage. jab>fsmash will still work since fsmash has high priority and wont clank vs aerials. plus, sa is just one frame before it hits (sa on 8-11, hits on 9) so there wont be much difference.
the only thing that changes by removing sa, is that he cant plow through recovery that easy (easy is meant relativley, since 1 frame difference is very little and most recoveries dont kill anyway, so sa doesnt make that much of a difference), which, again, is very unique to wario and thus should be kept.

He warrants the nerfs because all you really have to do with him to win are Dair and Uair, with Fsmash and some grab combos. And not many characters have answers to Wario's Dair and Uair unless they have range on him. I mean Wario is obviously top 10, so if Fox got damage nerfs and Squirtle got damage nerfs, with everyone thinking they are top 10 then why shouldn't Wario if his playstyle is centralized around those 2 aerials?

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u cant really compare what wario does to repetitive dair>utilt by fox. plus, jc shine isnt really much of a nerf, just a trade-off. fox didnt get worse, just harder imo.

Basically the idea was to nerf him without getting rid of the playstyle so that when he Fsmashes the Wario realizes he can't get away with it that much anymore and he'll start doing something differently from his aerials like using Fart more or killing with Ftilt instead. And maybe with the damage nerfs he'll start to use his other aerials a little more. If these nerfs aren't enough, then we'll probably just lower the damage some more on Uair and Dair and then see how that goes.

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fart is still his number one kill move, without any moves imo. ftilt is good for its range and wont be used more than it is now after those nerfs.

finally, though wario is good and probably top 10 (biassed since i main him - keep in mind that although he is top10 material, there can only be 10 chars in top10; and i can easily think of 15 chars that are top10 material) there isnt enough footage to know if he deserves nerfs yet. u dont nerf oli blindly, do u? also, wario is one of the few character's that actually got worse in the course of the transition to b+ (relatively speakin; of course he gained comboes, but he didn't increase his options as much as other chars and he had no problems approaching).
plus, he'll probaly get hit hard by the ad changes that are in plans....

lastly, i'd like to know how comes up with that kind of stuff. did u discuss this with plum and slikvik, smk? one opinion alone shouldnt be enough for such drastic changes, especially w/o anyone asking for them (3 nerfs without tradeoffs is just insane imo, especially since fox, who is probably top2, only got 2 plus an excellent trade-off). kinda reminds me of the recent rob changes, just because shanus (who i rspect a lot btw) thought he was top10...

i think this needs some discussion, before anything is done.

There was some small discussion on Olimar a couple of pages back. I got around to testing him, and he is RIDICULOUS. XD The crap you can get away with is amazing. I don't feel like his recovery does much to balance him out either.

[/agree with WoF]

WheelOfFish said:

There was some small discussion on Olimar a couple of pages back. I got around to testing him, and he is RIDICULOUS. XD The crap you can get away with is amazing. I don't feel like his recovery does much to balance him out either.

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Go win a tournament so we can nerf him.

Brawl+ needs more Metaknight and Olimar players.

And I've always seen Wario's bair as his worst aerial attack myself. Mostly due to it's range and the fact that every hitbox on it is connected to a hurtbox on Wario. I'm gonna be honest, I don't see that move beating out any other aerial in the game without ever trading hits.

it has the best range of all of his aerials. and u always have to take his air movement and baiting skills into account.

CloneHat said:

Go win a tournament so we can nerf him.

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Can we nerf Mario if I win with him against Chu/Boss/JCaes/G-reg/ChaosKnight/Waffle/Guru (yeah I know you want to come down to MD/VA+ one of these days XD. Go to Hackfest 3.0 [/shameless advertising])/Lobos in tourney come a few weeks? :3

Also if CK actually goes through with playing Ness and winning the tournament with him out of hate for heavy!Marth, looks like we can make Ness nonviable again!