• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
first i have to say, sa on fsmash is very unique to wario and thus should be left alone imo (but that's more of a personal opinion than anything else).
second, fsmash is very punushable if u predict it or dodge it. it has tons of lag after it has hit. and if ryoko (no offense) can call zelda's usmash balanced (clearly an anti-air move) because it isn't safe on shields, then wario's fsmash (which is his only good smash btw - except for dacus, but that's relatively situational compared to other usmashes) definetely not op.
due to its winddown lag it cant be spammed mindlessly if ur opponent knows the matchup. slikvik even does it in the wrong direction on purpose if he thinks hey can react in time.
and third, removing the sa wont reduce fsmash usage. jab>fsmash will still work since fsmash has high priority and wont clank vs aerials. plus, sa is just one frame before it hits (sa on 8-11, hits on 9) so there wont be much difference.
the only thing that changes by removing sa, is that he cant plow through recovery that easy (easy is meant relativley, since 1 frame difference is very little and most recoveries dont kill anyway, so sa doesnt make that much of a difference), which, again, is very unique to wario and thus should be kept.
My feeling on it is that, it should be beaten out by certain moves period. The SA really stops a lot of people from being able to hit Wario before the hitbox comes out. And it's not like the SA is COMPLETELY gone, he still has a form of it, it just isn't as strong. It's not completely removed, he still has an armor on the move. Lowering its KB hurts it a bit, taking away the SA and putting on HA so it can be beaten by 11% or above moves I think seems more fair. Of course the SA > HA and people probably would rather a KB nerf than just giving him HA.

Actually, I could compare Wario's Fsmash SA frames to MK's invinc frames on grounded Up B. Is it fair for MK to have to be invinc on frames 1-5 until the hitbox is out on such a quick move? No, it isn't. While MK's can be more.... 'spammed' I suppose and is quicker than Wario's, the result is generally the same (except the end result is obviously different). The other difference being that a multi-hit move can beat Wario's SA where as no move can beat out MK's shuttle loop invinc.

I talked about this with Cape and Shell yesterday. The thing about Fsmash is, he can do it after Dair and Nair, especially after Nair. I can literally combo from both hits of Nair to Fsmash. Dair is a little different, its use is more on shield as he can weave behind them and then Fsmash. Of course, this DOES get predictable but then that's why you would weave out and then Fsmash the front instead if it got too predictable.

I think this should be taken to the Wario thread now though. :p (Someone bump it up please). I'd rather discuss it there than here.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
...You dont need to bump this thread. It's active enough and people who care have already subscribed to this thread.

Why do you think this isnt stickied?
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
well.... I was just wanted more discussion going on. a 2 hour silence is pretty big for a "active" thread.
... 2 hour silence is not that big man. Worry when it falls to second page. This thread is inactive for 3-5 hours every day, normally because most people are sleeping, but you get the idea. :V


It's a holiday weekend. People are probably doing things with family. Chill.
Smashboards does not comprehend this...family...variable you speak of.

Sorry. :( How am I not chill though? I'm not even yelling...

it's just that I have nothing else to do this weekend X_X
Then find something to do.

You know, maybe people finally took my hint about stop posting and play moar.
 

iLink

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
2,075
Location
NorCal
While we are on the subject of wario, could we lower his winddown on his dash attack just a tad? It looks like it could set up for some useful stuff but its winddown is way too long for him to do anything out of it.
 

crazycrackers

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
318
Location
Los Angleles, California
I don't understand. Why would we buff Wario? He's quite good, and has way better and more practical combo starters than dash attack anyway. In addition, he was meant to be used in the air a lot, dash attack was never meant to be good, at all.
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
I don't understand. Why would we buff Wario? He's quite good, and has way better and more practical combo starters than dash attack anyway. In addition, he was meant to be used in the air a lot, dash attack was never meant to be good, at all.
Well, it actually is good for DACUS, but, other than that, you're right.
 

iLink

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
2,075
Location
NorCal
Well it seems they can get out of the hitstun BEFORE the attack is even finished. I could be wrong on that note though.
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
I'm talking about canceling the dash attack with an up smash, not actually hitting with it.


dacus is canceling your dash attack with an up smash, causing a slide while up smashing.
 

crazycrackers

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
318
Location
Los Angleles, California
Ya, I mean, even if people want to pull off some tradeoff for Wario nerfs, I don't get why it would be a ground move like that. Wario is an aerial character, meaning if I were really concerned, I would want to buff his less used aerials (fair/bair) because he remains the same in style. Although I still don't see why Wario would receive a buff at all.

Well it seems they can get out of the hitstun BEFORE the attack is even finished. I could be wrong on that note though.
Ya, almost every character has some useless, or near useless moves. Look at ganon with warlock punch and utilt. From my understanding, we're not trying to make every move useful, we're trying to make every character useful. I don't even see Wario players use dash attack often at all really, most of them just stick with where he's good, in the air.
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
He still needs to be nerfed in truth.

I would agree with making his SA on fsmash heavy armor and lower the damage on dair (KB compensating of course)

But let's talk Peach buffs. GO GO GO


/jk about Peach thing
 

crazycrackers

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
318
Location
Los Angleles, California
I know that was a joke, but if you want to discuss Peach, you should do it in the character forums. She's really good, but not problematic at all. As for Wario, I'll leave any nerfs to someone more knowledgeable about him.
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
Gah, I hate this feeling.... I just want changes....and different stuff.....

inb4 Where is the new nightly Shanus


Anyways I'll go lurk on the character forums now. >.>
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
No, I was agreeing with him. I never said that they were my ideas. Sorry if it sounded like I was implying that. and I just posted there.
 

RPGsFTW

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
754
First of all, big time Wario player here.

I agree with all of the nerfs to Wario that Falco400 mentioned.

I also think that it'd be just fine if Wario's D-air and U-air did even less than 14/15%. I'd be just fine with a D-air doing 10-12% and an U-air doing 13-15%.

Also, <3 B-air/F-air regardless of damage.
 

MK26

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
4,450
Location
http://www.mediafire.com/?zj2oddmz0yy for ZSS fix!
Proposal

Since there's been all this talk of "Plussifying" several old techs from past games (ex JC grabs, ledgetechs), I've been thinking that we should try to fix the vB incarnation of a mechanic that was shunned far too early into the process: stale move negation. That's right. I want SMN+.

I know that it was originally taken out due to the fact that it benefits single-move combos much too much. My suggestion is designed to prevent this from happening, while still discouraging spamming single moves. It is two-fold, as I have thought of several different options and value each of these equally, if for different reasons. Of course, variations and subtle tweaks could be implemented, but for now, the basic ideas are what I will present. (Of course, all this is possible with the SMN code we have, but you may need to know how the code works to understand what I'm saying)

1) Fresh bonus: 1.00x
Slot 1: -0.04
Slot 2: -0.03
Slot 3: -0.02
Slot 4: -0.01


A cut-off version of vBrawl SMN, in which a move can never be below 90% of its base power. A fresh attack 'x' doing damage 'y' at percent 'z' will always have less kb than a slot 1 stale attack 'x' doing damage '(y*0.96)' at percent '(y+z)'. Thus, you can't quickly stale a move and keep the opponent in much longer than you normally could. There isn't a huge effect on the potency of a kill move that's been survived (unlike vBrawl's jump from 1.05x fresh to 0.9x at slot 1), but the weakening is still there.

2) Fresh bonus: 1.05x
Slot 1: -0.00
Slot 2: -0.05
Slot 3: -0.05
Slot 4: -0.05


No penalty, other than the loss of the fresh bonus, for a move being at slot 1. This will definitely put some thought into one's moves. Your opponent just DI'd your most reliable kill move - do you go for the kill while you're still at full power and risk a huge penalty for failing, or do you try to do bit damage to refresh the move to make sure your opponent can't DI it again? Or use a different move? Also, with the fresh bonus and 0-loss slot 1, three-hit single attack chains actually do as much damage as that without SMN.

More thoughtful usage: Dthrow --> regrab your opponent when he's at 0. Now, pummel to stale the dthrow (oxymoronic, innit?) to facilitate another regrab. Or, do you want to throw right away and not risk the opponent breaking out? Choices, choices. My point is that, if it's done right, stale moves can be a valuable addition to the game. Plussinfying it may be just what the project needs to put some thought back into the game.

======

A radical change that would directly halt single-move combos could be increasing a move's endlag on hit (or alternatively increases the attacker's hitlag) as it stales. That would go right after the root of the problem, especially when coupled with any form of traditional stale move negation (to cover projectile/kill move spamming)
 

Nybb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
399
Location
Victoria, BC
For the record, 64 had staling too, both damage and knockback. The knockback decay is actually really noticeable on big kill moves, like Donkey Punch and Samus' Charge Shot. And I think it only staled once or twice, and the "queue" was only a couple items long.

1) Fresh bonus: 1.00x
Slot 1: -0.04
Slot 2: -0.03
Slot 3: -0.02
Slot 4: -0.01


...

2) Fresh bonus: 1.05x
Slot 1: -0.00
Slot 2: -0.05
Slot 3: -0.05
Slot 4: -0.05
If I had to pick, I think I like your second idea the best, although a fresh bonus is silly; we'd have to relearn the damages and kill percents of basically every move. I think you could pull off the same thing with a more sensible method, like

Fresh: 100%
Slot 1: 95%
Slot 2: 90%
Slot 3: 90%
Slot 4: 90%

The actual multipliers are somewhat arbitrary here; basically I'm just saying that a penalty makes more sense than a fresh bonus.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
I'm pretty sure 64 only had damage staling. The misconception between damage only staling, as that as a result of damage going down with staling, KB is indirectly effected.
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,335
Location
Boston, MA
Regarding Stale Moves, please read. :)

Here's the thing. Do we really need a stale moves system? Will it truly cause us to use other moves to save our kill moves? In all honesty, I think such a system is garbage. If you use a kill move and the enemy survives, you shouldn't have to worry about it being staled. The fact that you may hold off on using certain moves, or using moves you don't want to use just to refresh the moves that you do is incredibly gimmicky and otherwise nonsensical.

If we implement it and it's too strong then it borks a ton of characters, forcing them to use moves that suck, because their good ones aren't fresh. Conversely, if we implement it and it's 'too weak' and otherwise unnoticeable, well then I ask what's the point of adding it? It's such a sloppy mechanic.

If you think about it, the idea behind a stale moves system could indeed be more lazy than most of you think. With a console game, especially a fighter, there's only so much beta testing and balancing that can be undergone by a game's release deadline, as time is money, and surpassing the proposed release date is generally a costly move on the company's behalf. No matter how much they try to balance the game it's impossible. The developers have no possible way of comprehending--foreseeing the metagame of their very product as said metagame is formed by the player base over time. For example, does anyone actually think laser locking, and jab locks were foreseen by Sakurai? What about the many CGs, namely Falco's, DDD's, etc. Further more, do any of you think that Sakurai had ever planned on the IC's having alternating grab infinities, ice block locks, and desynchs? So what's my point? My point is, because the development is limited in their balancing efforts, and because they can't foresee the metagame of their product they try to safeguard their product with an otherwise gimmicky system: stale moves. A stale moves system then helps them in a huge way with balancing, as it becomes a scapegoat. They realize that there's only so much balancing that they are capable of so they build a system to 'weaken' or catch what they have overlooked. They hope that said system will keep characters at a level playing field, when it in fact does not... MK anyone? They hope that said system will make sure certain tactics don't get out of hand, as after release there's NOTHING they can do to change it. Conversely, we, the community behind Brawl+ CAN change things whenever we want. If some strategy arises that is found to be rediculously overpowered we can easily nerf it without taking away options from the character. We don't have to rely on a system that doesn't work as we have a much better system: ACTUAL COMMUNITY BASED UPDATES--- BASED ON METAGAME AND TOURNEY RESULTS.

With that said, Brawl+'s balancing efforts are actually far more solid than Sakurai and his team because it is basing its balancing efforts on concrete facts, the metagame of characters and tournament results. This is something that the developers never had access to, as it didn't exist yet. With that said, unlike a company that's losing money by not meeting a deadline, we here at Brawl+ work as a collective community, all building to a bigger picture--- a better game.

We can, and have been, fine tuning each and every characters movesets, fixing discrepancies in their game, whether it's hitbox changes, damage changes, frame speed changes, speeding up the character, changing their physics, changing their aerial mobility, you name it, we do it. We're making sure each character has his fair share of options, set-ups, etc, equating to what we deem as tournament viability with said character. Let's not forget that beyond simply fine-tuning characters we can add ATs of our own, completely engineered by the community to the game. Not to mention we've already changed the ledge game rather drastically, added hitstun, added shield stun, added momentum, and fine tuned just about every other aspect of the game--- and we have no reason to stop yet. We're not done.

Why is it that if we can truly balance a game in a fashion otherwise impossible by any development team should we employ something as haphazard and gimmicky as a stale moves system?
 

Nybb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
399
Location
Victoria, BC
I'm pretty sure 64 only had damage staling. The misconception between damage only staling, as that as a result of damage going down with staling, KB is indirectly effected.
I'm having trouble parsing that second sentence, lol. Are you trying to say that 64 didn't have KB staling, but instead the KB staled as a result of damage staling? What is the difference between those two? The end result is the same. As far as I know, Melee had only damage staling without affecting KB, so it's not like KB decay and damage decay must be intertwined. They just are in Brawl.

^ Orca, I agree with the fact that we don't need stale moves. If I had to go with one system it would be Melee staling though.
I don't think it's possible to do this in Brawl's engine. Damage is directly involved in the computation of knockback, so a stale moves code would have to add a certain amount of KB to every single move as it stales. I don't think that would be possible.
 

timothyung

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
948
Location
Hong Kong
KB is calculated after the hit, so if the damage is staled, the KB is indirectly lowered.

In Melee, a move, no matter it's staled or not, if the end damage is the same, it deals the same KB. But it isn't the case in Brawl.
 

Dantarion

Smash Champion
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
2,492
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
This sounds like a job for an asm code that calculates knockback before damage, or one that adds knockback based on how much a move has staled.
 

Alphatron

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,269
I agree with kupo on that some sort of SMN would improve gameplay, but I'll wait to see if we need it after the next nightly.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
Since there's been all this talk of "Plussifying" several old techs from past games (ex JC grabs, ledgetechs), I've been thinking that we should try to fix the vB incarnation of a mechanic that was shunned far too early into the process: stale move negation. That's right. I want SMN+.

I know that it was originally taken out due to the fact that it benefits single-move combos much too much. My suggestion is designed to prevent this from happening, while still discouraging spamming single moves. It is two-fold, as I have thought of several different options and value each of these equally, if for different reasons. Of course, variations and subtle tweaks could be implemented, but for now, the basic ideas are what I will present. (Of course, all this is possible with the SMN code we have, but you may need to know how the code works to understand what I'm saying)

1) Fresh bonus: 1.00x
Slot 1: -0.04
Slot 2: -0.03
Slot 3: -0.02
Slot 4: -0.01


A cut-off version of vBrawl SMN, in which a move can never be below 90% of its base power. A fresh attack 'x' doing damage 'y' at percent 'z' will always have less kb than a slot 1 stale attack 'x' doing damage '(y*0.96)' at percent '(y+z)'. Thus, you can't quickly stale a move and keep the opponent in much longer than you normally could. There isn't a huge effect on the potency of a kill move that's been survived (unlike vBrawl's jump from 1.05x fresh to 0.9x at slot 1), but the weakening is still there.

2) Fresh bonus: 1.05x
Slot 1: -0.00
Slot 2: -0.05
Slot 3: -0.05
Slot 4: -0.05


No penalty, other than the loss of the fresh bonus, for a move being at slot 1. This will definitely put some thought into one's moves. Your opponent just DI'd your most reliable kill move - do you go for the kill while you're still at full power and risk a huge penalty for failing, or do you try to do bit damage to refresh the move to make sure your opponent can't DI it again? Or use a different move? Also, with the fresh bonus and 0-loss slot 1, three-hit single attack chains actually do as much damage as that without SMN.

More thoughtful usage: Dthrow --> regrab your opponent when he's at 0. Now, pummel to stale the dthrow (oxymoronic, innit?) to facilitate another regrab. Or, do you want to throw right away and not risk the opponent breaking out? Choices, choices. My point is that, if it's done right, stale moves can be a valuable addition to the game. Plussinfying it may be just what the project needs to put some thought back into the game.
The first idea is so weak... why even bother? The second idea is just stupid. It has pretty much exactly the same effect as starting with no fresh bonus and dropping by 5 each level... which is actually a harsher version of vbrawl's stale moves once you get past the first couple moves, since you're being punished equally for a move being in the stale queue at the end as you are at the beginning. Stale moves are just a bad mechanic in general.

A radical change that would directly halt single-move combos could be increasing a move's endlag on hit (or alternatively increases the attacker's hitlag) as it stales. That would go right after the root of the problem, especially when coupled with any form of traditional stale move negation (to cover projectile/kill move spamming)
You know, when I first read that hitlag idea, I thought it was absolutely awesome. Then I realized... it would kill shield pressure strings. Yeah! Let's buff shields! Er... no. We really don't need any form of staling.

See, in traditional fighters, combo staling is their version of stale moves. Basically, the longer your combo goes on, the less damage each hit of the combo does. The system affects both the winner and the loser equally, and naturally favors characters who do shorter, but still very damaging combos (typically heavies). This works as a great autobalance tool for these games, but it doesn't really translate into smash too well. Smash does have true combos, but they're usually short and are linked together by strings, so it wouldn't really make sense to implement a carbon copy of a traditional fighter's stale moves. So then what's the next best thing? Using the same move repeatedly, of course! So you end up weakening a player's best options as they use them more... way to punish a player for falling behind. The way stale moves are currently implemented in smash, it hurts the player who is behind more than it hurts the player who is ahead. Since stale moves get refreshed upon dying, a player who is ahead is free to spam whatever he needs to in order to build damage, while the foe is stuck trying to keep their kill moves fresh, in hopes of getting an earlier kill. When the losing player finally does get a kill, the winning player comes back with fresh moves and can easily return the favor. Not to mention that stale moves heavily contributed to vbrawl's campiness, which is something I think we can all agree we want to avoid. Some of those points can be disregarded if we start talking about melee's stale moves system, but honestly, at that point, you may as well just not have a stale move system at all.
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
The first idea is so weak... why even bother? The second idea is just stupid. It has pretty much exactly the same effect as starting with no fresh bonus and dropping by 5 each level... which is actually a harsher version of vbrawl's stale moves once you get past the first couple moves, since you're being punished equally for a move being in the stale queue at the end as you are at the beginning. Stale moves are just a bad mechanic in general.


You know, when I first read that hitlag idea, I thought it was absolutely awesome. Then I realized... it would kill shield pressure strings. Yeah! Let's buff shields! Er... no. We really don't need any form of staling.

See, in traditional fighters, combo staling is their version of stale moves. Basically, the longer your combo goes on, the less damage each hit of the combo does. The system affects both the winner and the loser equally, and naturally favors characters who do shorter, but still very damaging combos (typically heavies). This works as a great autobalance tool for these games, but it doesn't really translate into smash too well. Smash does have true combos, but they're usually short and are linked together by strings, so it wouldn't really make sense to implement a carbon copy of a traditional fighter's stale moves. So then what's the next best thing? Using the same move repeatedly, of course! So you end up weakening a player's best options as they use them more... way to punish a player for falling behind! The way stale moves are currently implemented in smash, it hurts the player who is behind more than it hurts the player who is ahead. Since stale moves get refreshed upon dying, a player who is ahead is free to spam whatever he needs to in order to build damage, while the foe is stuck trying to keep their kill moves fresh, in hopes of getting an earlier kill. When the losing player finally does get a kill, the winning player comes back with fresh moves and can easily return the favor. Not to mention that stale moves heavily contributed to vbrawl's campiness, which is something I think we can all agree we want to avoid. Some of those points can be disregarded if we start talking about melee's stale moves system, but honestly, at that point, you may as well just not have a stale move system at all.
O_O how do you manage to always make your posts so sexy, leafgreen?

^^^above quote plus this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64Izd-ucXow#t=0m59s


is my true opinion on the stale move system.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom