This is dead, look for the new matchup thread. Be sure to read the rules.

Nic64 · Sep 3, 2009

Panix said:
1. @Susa- even if you sh air dodge, the laser, then he mixs it up and shoots lasers on the stage, what do you have to do to him sooner or later? approach, then he phantams across the stage and your back at sqaure one ( I played a really gay falco that fatal brought to a tourney in jersey).

If he settles for chip damage and doesn't CG you he's fighting a losing battle, the damage and knock back differential is massive and Snake has tools to prevent him from camping forever.

2. @Afro- Alright, You make it seem like I DON'T KNOW that DDD is a bad match-up for snake. But you don't use the gernades like they have KB. Pull nade>Roll back>Pull nade>Watch DDD either approach

This will work once or twice but isn't a reliable consistent defense, once DDD knows it's coming, he just runs at you and grabs you while you're lagging on your second nade, the lag period on nades is very exploitable, they don't *really* prevent people from approaching you.

AfroQT · Sep 3, 2009

Your plan works until y ou get to the end of the stage.
Same with olimar.
What do you do when you cant roll back anymore? You have to guess and if you guess right awesome. If you guess wrong...no longer awesome.

Snake beats D3s when it comes to guessing. But even if you win 70% of the on the ground guessing games....You'll still lose. D3 does not need alot of grabs to end your stock. A Good d3 will end it in 2 or 3. Seibrik (playing good or great) will end it in 1 or 2.

SuSa · Sep 3, 2009

Panix. You didn't understand.

SH the first laser, airdodge the second. (airdodge to shield preferred usually)

I got to face the gayest Falco on the west coast. (Brian H) and won 2-1, then 3-1 in Grand Finals (only 2 wins count. I lost to his MK as IC's, then beat his MK as Snake.

Arturito_Burrito · Sep 3, 2009

dabuz said:
lol, im sorry, but lol, if you know he grabs a lot, punish or evade, its not hard when you know he will grab more, if he tries corner you, don't let him corner you, use that knowledge to your advantage....

now for olimar...most snakes just don't get how to actually play this matchup, because it requires thinking outside the box...theres a reason why no good players have said this matchup is heavily in olimar's favor, because they know better

why is it funny didn't you read that he spends his time looking to see how i react?

Plus The way afro describes DDD beating snake is exactly what he does. He just used a lot more words rather than just get near you wait for you to be in a bad position or read your reactions and then grab you.

After all what can you do to avoid a grab? just move and spot dodge (maybe set up a nade so that you blow up with him but it doesn't always work and the can dthrow get spaced around it). If he reads what you do right then you get grabbed.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=4ECDD503D3C88452 since panda asked.

Tell me if i'm missing any.

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 4, 2009

D3 is Snake's worst match-up, hands down. He's the only character in the game except MK, who can keep up with Snake's incredible damage output (in this specific match-up). Even if he doesn't get a lot of grabs D3 can still deal good amounts of damage offstage and with uair/juggles. The occasional CG still hurts Snake a lot and even though Snake is one of the hardest characters in the game to grab it's still pretty much impossible to never get grabbed by D3.

Olimar is even at worst. Snake has a lot of things going for him against Olimar...not only his dthrow tech chase but also the fact that Snake can ftilt through Olimar's grab. Grenades + Ledgehogs also limit Olimar's offstage options to 0.

Snakes worst match-ups imo:

D3 ... 45/55
MK ... 5/5
Oli ... 5/5
Wario ... 5/5
Diddy ... 5/5 or 55/45
Falco ... 55/45
Marth ... 55/45
Zamus ... 55/45
Toon Link ... 55/45
Pikachu ... 55/45
ROB ... 55/45

All other match-ups are 6/4 or more in Snake's favour.

SuSa · Sep 4, 2009

You lost all credibility in my eyes when you said:
Falco grab release CG, can avoid chaingrab, he has issues killing us. away-towards attack, near ledge is easy to react too. We can get him to ledge
Toon Link - Has issues landing KO moves if you stay within safe zones, which I'm suprised people are still too stupid to figure out. We have a death grab on him. All we need to do is react to what he does which is pathetically easy due to his short rolls.
ROB - Name me a ROB who has recently beaten a top Snake player
Pikachu - Blow self up to 30%. Profit. Pikachu has next-to-nothing on you now. No 0-100%~ CG. You outrange him in every possible way, and out camp him (if you stay in the safe zone. Which is rather large in this matchup)

All had a small advantage on us.

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 4, 2009

Nah...just a typo^^

D3 is the only one who has the advantage.

SuSa · Sep 4, 2009

Credibility regained. (Although I'd argue 6-4 against TL's.. and if things keep going the way they are (read: if I beat Larry) I'd argue 6-4 against Falco as well)

AfroQT · Sep 4, 2009

I believe the only character that straightup beats snake is D3.
I think MK vs Snake is 55/45 or 5/5. But i think d3 vs snake is 6/4.

Rofl you cant base the whole matchup on whether or not you beat one person.
Thats ********.

Toneh · Sep 4, 2009

Wario is pretty even but he gets wrecked by those grab releases :x
And a grab around 110 % or 112% is a guaranteed kill by u-air.
So it may be 55-45, depends on the stage.

I think d3 is around 45-55 (insanely hard to fight though) and mk is pretty even.
I'm still learning how to play though so im jus goin what i think right now.
I haven't fought olimar enough yet to say but i think its funny when olimar's say they have a crazy advantage lol...

SuSa · Sep 4, 2009

I use theorycraft coupled with personal experience (as a backing)

I have yet to face a great DDD, all I know is Jon T's DDD epicly ***** me due to 2 mistakes I made that got me grabbed. He stood there, read what I did, reacted. Each time took a stock... <_<

I agree with MK. Although I'd personally say it depends heavily on the stage.

AfroQT · Sep 4, 2009

SuSa said:
I use theorycraft coupled with personal experience (as a backing)

I have yet to face a great DDD, all I know is Jon T's DDD epicly ***** me due to 2 mistakes I made that got me grabbed. He stood there, read what I did, reacted. Each time took a stock... <_<

I agree with MK. Although I'd personally say it depends heavily on the stage.

You cant base it off only your own experience tho. Even if you **** this Larry falco player, it doesnt mean the matchup is 6/4 in favor of snake. We have to base it on how multiple snake players do against multiple falcos. Theorycraft is nice, and personal exp is better but its about everyone not just one person.

If you play seibrik or co18...you'll hate life.

SuSa · Sep 4, 2009

I already theorycraft our favor to be 6-4. I say 55:45 due to not having facing the top Falco players in my area. (SK92 and Larry are the only top Falco's+Players on the West Coast) and I have yet to face them. I've faced every other SoCal Falco, but missing the top 2 West Coast Falco's. So while my theorycraft has thus worked out, I've never lost a serious set to a Falco - it's still possible my theorycraft is wrong.

However the more and more I beat Falco's, the stronger backing I feel for my theorycraft. Because it's actually being put to use and working.

The reason why people generally agree on matchup ratios is:
1) They theorycrafted around the same
2) They have had similiar real life situations in the matchup
3) Both of the above

If you dominated Seibrik or Co18 with your Snake. And I mean constant 3 stocks, but lose to people obviously having less skill (not even going to bother mentioning a character) - would you still feel D3 has the advantage? Even though all of your theorycrafting proved false?

I am not basing my 6-4 off of ONE match. It has been a collective of over ten sets. Where I have yet to lose a single one. However out of those ten, not a single one has been with a well-known and respected Falco (read: Sk92 or Larry; for West Coast) so my theorycraft may only hold up to a certain point. At that point it may crumble to dust, and I'd feel it's indeed only 55-45 our favor. Not 60-40.

(All ten sets aren't with ten different Falco's.... <_< it's been a good 4-5 with duplicates in there)

AfroQT · Sep 4, 2009

SuSa said:
I already theorycraft our favor to be 6-4. I say 55:45 due to not having facing the top Falco players in my area. (SK92 and Larry are the only top Falco's+Players on the West Coast) and I have yet to face them. I've faced every other SoCal Falco, but missing the top 2 West Coast Falco's. So while my theorycraft has thus worked out, I've never lost a serious set to a Falco - it's still possible my theorycraft is wrong.

However the more and more I beat Falco's, the stronger backing I feel for my theorycraft. Because it's actually being put to use and working.

The reason why people generally agree on matchup ratios is:
1) They theorycrafted around the same
2) They have had similiar real life situations in the matchup
3) Both of the above

If you dominated Seibrik or Co18 with your Snake. And I mean constant 3 stocks, but lose to people obviously having less skill (not even going to bother mentioning a character) - would you still feel D3 has the advantage? Even though all of your theorycrafting proved false?

I am not basing my 6-4 off of ONE match. It has been a collective of over ten sets. Where I have yet to lose a single one. However out of those ten, not a single one has been with a well-known and respected Falco (read: Sk92 or Larry; for West Coast) so my theorycraft may only hold up to a certain point. At that point it may crumble to dust, and I'd feel it's indeed only 55-45 our favor. Not 60-40.

(All ten sets aren't with ten different Falco's.... <_< it's been a good 4-5 with duplicates in there)

You arent factoring in maybe you were clearly the superior player to begin with, or maybe you knew the matchup or maybe they didnt know the matchup. Its alot more then just "Theorycraft then compare results". Its wayyyy more then that. So many factors have to be determined.

Thats why half of EVERYONES MATCHUPS RATIO IN EVERY SINGLE BOARD ON THIS SITE is wrong. A group of people go "well i havent lost to so and so falcos and do this and this against these ones so the matchup must be this". Determining ratios requires time (which we have had plenty of), theorycraft like you say, and the comparing of multiple falcos vs multiple snakes in multiple areas of play. Even after that, you STILL must compare both characters meta-game to each other, as its always possible that every snake player or every falco player sucks (or is really good), and attempt to come to a agreement on a ratio.

Smashboards has alot of character boards but none of them make any progress in anything. Sure they discuss general matchups, and they discuss random techs but for the most part they get nothing done. They need to be dissecting the game to the point where they can CHANGE matchups. This isnt being done by anyone (except for some of the lower tiered chars lol).

Either way i agree with you lol.

HRNUT (Honey Roasted) · Sep 4, 2009

Afro_Thundah said:
If you play seibrik or co18...you'll hate life.[/QUOTE]

AGREED come to florida and see the crap we have to put up with, me and afro the 2 best snakes in the state play these guys on the regular and i can tell you no matter what the lead may be D3 always has a chance to come back, i remember the gigs i won several months ago, i played seibriks D3 on final in the second match and i wrecked his first two stock while taking less than 100% then i got comfortable and saiid there's no way i can lose...WRONG, he kept pressuring me into the corner and i got owned for it....lesson is don't ever put your guard down vs a good D3, he will wreck you.

and lol at the oli being harder thing

so are we gonna rediscuss the oli match up as in who's favor it is in? or perhaps we do marth cuz i happen to play snake and marth and i'd like to put in some input on it

gallax · Sep 4, 2009

hehe. i want to say something but idk how much it would matter. hrnut and afro are pretty solid with their statements and i pretty much agree with them. the few times i played co 18 it never felt like i was in the lead, even when i was. ddd can easily bring things back, all you need to do is make 1 mistake.

hey hrnut your snake vs my marth next smashfest?

HRNUT (Honey Roasted) · Sep 4, 2009

Definitely bro, i'm always down for that match regardless of which character i am playing lol

Arturito_Burrito · Sep 4, 2009

SuSa said:
ROB - Name me a ROB who has recently beaten a top Snake player

well holy took ally to game 5 doesn't that count for something? I think if he can do that then he can beat a few other top snakes.

HRNUT (Honey Roasted) · Sep 4, 2009

i do think rob and snake are even, cuz he can do some gay stuff to snake but snake ***** him up close IMO

Nic64 · Sep 4, 2009

SuSa said:
Toon Link - ...We have a death grab on him.

I agree that Snake wrecks TL, but there is no death grab, even if you tech chase him on reaction with 100% consistency, it still doesn't guarantee death at all, or even 0 to death %. It is still completely sick though.

On Snake's weaknesses, IMO DDD is the only 40:60 or worse, I think Snake may lose to more characters than is normally thought, maybe I undersell him but I honestly think he's overrated, but mostly by very slight degrees, DDD is the worst and only one I'd bother picking up a secondary to deal with if I were a Snake main.

I think Snake beats ROB though, his camping isn't that hard to get around and he can't really gimp or combo you like Wario, MK, Marth, DDD, Falco etc. can unless you're making mistakes. He outspaces your first hit ftilt but the damage and KO differential is massive, and ROB has difficulty landing his kill moves as it is.

SamuraiPanda · Sep 4, 2009

Arturito_Burrito said:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=4ECDD503D3C88452 since panda asked.

Tell me if i'm missing any.

You are a sexy, sexy man. Thank you <3

SuSa · Sep 4, 2009

Nic64 said:
I agree that Snake wrecks TL, but there is no death grab, even if you tech chase him on reaction with 100% consistency, it still doesn't guarantee death at all, or even 0 to death %. It is still completely sick though.

On Snake's weaknesses, IMO DDD is the only 40:60 or worse, I think Snake may lose to more characters than is normally thought, maybe I undersell him but I honestly think he's overrated, but mostly by very slight degrees, DDD is the worst and only one I'd bother picking up a secondary to deal with if I were a Snake main.

I think Snake beats ROB though, his camping isn't that hard to get around and he can't really gimp or combo you like Wario, MK, Marth, DDD, Falco etc. can unless you're making mistakes. He outspaces your first hit ftilt but the damage and KO differential is massive, and ROB has difficulty landing his kill moves as it is.

If boomerang is out (you can avoid it :x) or they/you aren't holding a bomb. It is basically a death grab.

You can grab them into ko %'s and utilt them no matter which option they choose. Since when did utilt not lead to death?

Dthrow leads to utilt on TL. Rather easily.

Also it doesn't matter HOW well you mix up your options as TL, all we do is react. So your stock is in the hands of "how well can my opponent react?"

o-Serin-o · Sep 4, 2009

LOL. Panda is a SSJ wannabe

lain · Sep 4, 2009

Panix said:
Lain (IC) vs Atomsk (DDD)

Atomsk won

Thats all I think about when I hear lain.

[lots of horribly bad matchup information]

Wait are you ****ing serious? Where did you hear I lost to Atomsk with IC's vs his DDD? Because last time I checked I beat him at the ONLY time we played at SNES.

What the hell is wrong with you =_=;;

Panix · Sep 5, 2009

lain said:
Wait are you ****ing serious? Where did you hear I lost to Atomsk with IC's vs his DDD? Because last time I checked I beat him at the ONLY time we played at SNES.

What the hell is wrong with you =_=;;

Wait, my fault.
That was meep.
Total Lose.

Nic64 · Sep 5, 2009

If boomerang is out (you can avoid it :x) or they/you aren't holding a bomb. It is basically a death grab.

You can grab them into ko %'s and utilt them no matter which option they choose. Since when did utilt not lead to death?

He can just roll towards the ledge to avoid getting regrabbed can't he? AFAIK dthrow can only possible infinite on a platform. It is a few guaranteed regrabs anyway though, as I said I agree that Snake wins and he can stop most of TL's viable options on reaction(projectiles are easy to PS and his close range attacks should be out of reach 90% of the time if you're playing right).

DMG · Sep 5, 2009

Actually if Snake grabs right, he can grab people who roll to the edge (even if they are already at the edge and roll into it further) and when he does the next Dthrow they will be placed on stage/not fall off. TL could get away with using get up attack near the edge, hitting Snake's shield, and pushing himself off the edge where he can jump or move, but if Snake moves a bit to the side or PS's the get up attack, it's pretty much game over.

Nic64 · Sep 5, 2009

Wow, wish I could get more use out of that, I have very average reflexes I just attempt to predict people for the most part.

Underload · Sep 5, 2009

Discussing ICs, btw >.>

If anyone knows **** about that matchup, please post?

Nic64 · Sep 5, 2009

Nades and mortars can help keep you from getting death grabbed, although they can actually chain grab you away from the grenade if you just pulled it. Platform camping works to prevent grabs but puts you at a situational disadvantage otherwise. It seems like half of Snake's arsenal will split them and Nana is stupid on her own. Only played a few IC's, need more practice.

DMG · Sep 5, 2009

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=247837

If you just read my tip, you will win pretty easy against IC players.

Berserker. · Sep 7, 2009

You have to target for the girl ice climber. Avoid there chain grabs and use grenades or camp. Ice climbers have horrible camping (There B move is sluggish so dodge)
60:40 Snake

You should change the match ups of:
Falco 55:45 Snake
Pikachu 55:45 Snake
Olimar 45:55 Olimar (arguably 50:50)

etecoon · Sep 7, 2009

Ice climbers have horrible camping (There B move is sluggish so dodge)

hahahah what? desync'd ice blocks are one of the better camping tools in the game, just not against snake because one grenade will stop it.

Berserker. · Sep 7, 2009

Oh but the match up is right and Snake is a better camper right? :chuckle:

ShadowPhoenix951 · Sep 7, 2009

65:35 Snake's advantage. The way to beat the Icies is to camp them. And who better to do that than the best camper in the game? Nana falls prey to grenades far too easily, and if Snake plays it right (meaning, having his explosives across the field and always having a grenade in hand) it will be nearly impossible for the Icies to CG Snake. Even if the Icies do get close, Snake's tilts have the range, power, and speed to keep them out.

Underload · Sep 7, 2009

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=247778

Much obliged.

Guilhe · Sep 9, 2009

The Ike boards is currently revising the Snake matchup, all Snake players are invited to join us. But first, please refer to the main matchup thread for information on our procedures and informative threads over Ike. I'll be adding links to threads with important information over Snake there as well, if you wish to add links to threads you consider important for this matchup analysis, please post the links there.

Main matchup thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238648

Snake matchup discussion thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8339319#post8339319

HRNUT (Honey Roasted) · Sep 9, 2009

don't use mortar slide predictably they'll just grab you, and never be impatient like me and appraoch, a non approaching snake is a winning snake lol

HRNUT (Honey Roasted) · Sep 9, 2009

so i just finished watching ally vs adhd and word of advice to all snake mains...if you wanna kill diddy throw him off the stage force his recovery then own him accordingly, it works

choknater · Sep 11, 2009

snake destroys ic's

ftilt ftilt ftilt

(when they get close that is, which should be never unless u walk up ftilt them, which is still good)

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