This is dead, look for the new matchup thread. Be sure to read the rules.

[Hot_ArmS]

i got the rusty syndrome

aka started cutting out brawl or any other video games because of college

 

[Panix]

We need to move on, Kirby is over. We also need to re-write alot of match ups. The rob one is not how you should fight rob, the olimar one is outdated.

If no one takes over I'll at least write up summaries.

 

[Ken Neth]

Feel free to write summaries, and I'll edit them into the OP for you. I might update in the next day or so if I happen to have some extra time.

 

[SuSa]

King Dedede
50:50

The long thought counter to Snake is actually far even then many of us thought! What makes this matchup even you ask? Well, we finally learned the **** matchup rather then ***** about the chaingrab.

(List)
Snake's Advantages:
Slightly better camp game (Much better camp game while on a platform)
Can punish many of Dedede's approaches, even when well spaced.
Better ground game
Down Throw Tech Chase is pretty **** (see SuSa's thread - link will be here)
Can cover all of Dedede's options to recover when he uses Up-B
Grenade Grabbing has a better grab range then Dedede's Dash Grab (AFAIK)

Dedede's Advantages:
Superior air game
Can gimp Snake well with multiple jumps
Can chaingrab Snake, setting Snake into a poor position and racking damage

Neutral Aspects:
Both can have trouble killing but both can kill well.


How To Play:

Grab the higher port! This is extremely important to escaping the chaingrab with grenades!

If you plan on winning this matchup, you are going to have to practice mixing up how you return to the stage. Dedede can juggle you really well and wall of pain you with bairs and fairs. If you are in the air, you are in a horrible position. B-reverse your grenades, c4, don't be predictable with fast falling or airdodges. Sometimes bair can be useful but you are generally better off not using it.

When camping, you don't have to worry about cooking grenades. Focus on actually hitting Dedede when far away. During mid-range you want to be slower and more thoughtful with your camping. Retreat a little if you can and be sure to keep grenades within explosion range if Dedede were to grab you. During close range, obviously stop camping. Keep a grenade near your feet if you can, and retreat a bit if able to. You want to do what you can to get Dedede away, forward tilt works well - and Dedede is one of the characters that Jab is actually guaranteed on - so jabbing is an option.

If Dedede is above you:
Spamming up smash (uncharged and charged) will force air dodges. You can punish these airdodges with grabs or SH bairs/uairs. Then try to stay under Dedede while using up smashes. This also works well when Dedede is recovering.

The Chaingrab:
Dedede's chaingrab is one of his key features. If he grabs you, he will chaingrab you. Your only hope to escape is to mash B and hope the Dedede messes up, which shouldn't happen but it might and it's your only hope. Only do this if you have the higher port! Otherwise you will take the damage, and the Dedede may have time to grab you again or use an aerial! That is bad!

Situational moves:

C4:
It is extremely important to not use this at low %'s. If the Dedede manages to get a grab and gets you offstage - you just signed your death warrant. Chances are they will sweetspot bair you to multiple sourspot bairs until you are to low to recover (because you cannot C4 Jump)

At mid to high %'s you can DI up and you will be able to recover high enough. At these %'s it is now safe to place a C4.

Mine:
Using this besides when Dedede is recovering is just asking to get CG'd into it on accident. Right?.... Wrong! I used to think this as well. It turns out you just need to know a few tricks.

Always make sure the Mine is behind Dedede. If Dedede can chaingrab you into it, it's not where you want it to be. The solution is to camp on the opposite side of the mine or to have the mine just in front of you. If these conditions are not being met, do what you can to blow up your own mine ASAP! Roll over it, put a grenade over it, drop a C4 and explode it on it. Do whatever you can to blow it up so it can't be used against you. Not using it is always better then having it used on you!

The best time to use the mine is to place it on stage while Dedede recoveres. Place a mine in a possible recovery spot, a c4 in another, and use Snake to cover the rest.

D3cide?
Dedede trying to suicide with you in his mouth? Feed him a pineapple! That's right, shield drop a grenade and roll away or z-drop a grenade and drift away. Do what you can to make him think he can D3cide but he really eats a pineapple and falls to his doom! (or falls into a really, really bad position)

Trying to edgehog the king? Be wary! Make sure to have invincibility frames if you are going for an edgeguard! The Dedede can wait for the precise moment in which he will spike you, can cancel his Up-B, and still grab the edge.

<_< I got bored and wrote some stuff. Opinions?

 

[napZzz]

even? I still dont think its dead even, closest it gets is 55:45 DDD's favor when its played right. Superior ground game? DDD can shield grab any ground attacks and outranges snakes grab with his own, although I'm not sure that works out too well. And one grab leads to the chain grab which leads to lots o percents and probably offstage ****...

But its really killer once your offstage because of the things DDD can do to you, snake doesn't have any extreme advantages like that whereas DDD does, but his camping game on DDD kind of makes up for it :/

 

[SuSa]

even? I still dont think its dead even, closest it gets is 55:45 DDD's favor when its played right. Superior ground game? DDD can shield grab any ground attacks and outranges snakes grab with his own, although I'm not sure that works out too well. And one grab leads to the chain grab which leads to lots o percents and probably offstage ****...

But its really killer once your offstage because of the things DDD can do to you, snake doesn't have any extreme advantages like that whereas DDD does, but his camping game on DDD kind of makes up for it :/

Better not superior ground game.

He has... ftilt to outrange us? (That's reliable.. I don't count fsmash as reliable) and his other moves aren't really safe on block...
If you space properly, and time things and know when to dedicate to attacks, you won't get shield grabbed often.
Learn where to camp and how to not get grabbed. Truly isn't THAT hard.
Off stage, DI everything up. Momentum cancel (fastfall only if you need to to live), don't be an idiot and immediately second jump. It will just be stolen away from you, messing up your recovery.

Don't be afraid to avoid a gimp by using C4 jumping (lower mid %'s) instead of getting bair wall of pained.

Camping game ===== advantage. You can camp D3 harddddd especially on Smashville

 

[Ken Neth]

So basically I have a feeling I'm going to get ***** by matchup inexperience at Genesis. And the fact that I haven't touched my snake recently cause I didn't think we'd be able to go XD

 

[Terra~]

I'm gonna get some Dedede users in here, Snake boards is the slowest board like in all of forever. 21match ups (24 if you count PT and then all 3 pokémon seperatly) left and right now stuck on D3 which, although it's a good thing, is being re-evaluated. Keep up the pace so we can update the match-up chart!

 

[SuSa]

That matchup chart is mine in the OP which I stopped updating out of laziness but may continue it when Photoshop would like to open.

If you are talking about the one in tactical, we're just really bad at getting essays done. lol

 

[SuSa]

Honestly, I am too lazy to update this anymore. In the next couple of months I'm not going to be able to play for 2~ years, and don't even know if I'll get back into it then. So hopefully you can see why I don't see the point in updating this anymore XD

Just saw this post. I understand.

Anyone objecting me editing my D3 summary in? I'm horrible with summaries and worse with organization.

Also I always start something, half finish it, then give up. You should see most of my threads in tactical. Or most of the threads in these forums.

A few special people got invites to a special group. Upon accepting the invite you can ask further questions and contribute. It has to do with this thread and I hope at least 3 of you can help contribute.

Until then, updating who we are talking about now. For now, people can just read the thread exports. I'm to lazy to write summaries.

 

[xDD-Master]

Also I always start something, half finish it, then give up. You should see most of my threads in tactical. Or most of the threads in these forums.

You could be a clone of me xD.

I have many ideas. But I'm just too lazy to update everything...

 

[SuSa]

I have to moderate 3 boards + have a life + update like 30 threads. :x

Anyways, this isn't the discussion to talk about it.

Also if the formula is correct, I suggestion people memorize this:

26
0%: 18th frame - 0 pummels
10%: 36th frame = 1 pummel
20%: 54th frame = 2 pummels
30%: 72nd frame = 2 pummels
40%: 90th frame = 3 pummels
50%: 108nd frame = 4 pummels
60%: 126th frame = 4 pummels
70%: 144th frame = 5 pummels

 

[Hot_ArmS]

co18 just 3-0'd ally in a $10 mm

what about snake and ddd being an even matchup?

 

[SuSa]

co18 just 3-0'd ally in a $10 mm

what about snake and ddd being an even matchup?

Wasn't it Candy/Afro/Seibrik that were calling it even? Can't remember what co18 said in the thread....

Still feel it's even, maybe co18 is just THAT good. lol

Question:
How many D3's are there that do well in Canada? (I know Ally moved, but he's only playing these people for whats maybe the 2nd or 3rd time as far as I know...)

Also I'd like to bet Ally didn't camp nearly enough........ considering he almost never camps from what I've seen... and from what I've heard from Eazyseph...

/Watches DSF supercamp D3's

/just pulled the "might not have matchup experience" john card out

 

[Terra~]

So who are we discussing now...?

 

[Ken Neth]

I have to moderate 3 boards + have a life + update like 30 threads. :x

Anyways, this isn't the discussion to talk about it.

Also if the formula is correct, I suggestion people memorize this:

26
0%: 18th frame - 0 pummels
10%: 36th frame = 1 pummel
20%: 54th frame = 2 pummels
30%: 72nd frame = 2 pummels
40%: 90th frame = 3 pummels
50%: 108nd frame = 4 pummels
60%: 126th frame = 4 pummels
70%: 144th frame = 5 pummels

I'd like to disagree with this after having seen Relfex mash out of grabs.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Isn't there 2 rates to the pummels? Everytime I was testing ground releases with various characters I always noticed how there pummels seemed to change in speeds. Sometimes my pummels would have a short pause between them, and other pummels would not have that delay between them.

Might this be what SuSa is referring too if you get that faster pummel going so you land that pummel every 26th frame?

 

[Ken Neth]

LOL if any of you have seen Reflex button mash out of grabs you'd know what I'm talking about. I think there's a video of him breaking out of a grab at a hundred percent, after only one pummel. He mashes so so fast. It's mind boggling.

 

[SuSa]

My formula was wrong. <_< Formula is weird... you can mash out of any grab (realisticly) after just 1 pummel... at any %..... except Lucario who can get 3 in.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Makes you question the reality of trying to pummel someone. Either way, the formular before of old has worked in the past quite well.

0-50% = 0 pummels
50%-100% = 1 pummel
100%-150% = 2 pummels.
etc.

 

[SuSa]

Well uhm...... even that formula doesn't work.

A Dedede was trying to chaingrab me using pummels, I was at 120%, he pummeled once and I broke out.

He then proceeded to be ftilt while his jab started up.

I find pummeling only useful now if my opponent doesn't mash (EG: Thinks they will be thrown instantly) but if they mash right from the start - I just throw.

Especially if the person knows how to mash properly and move the joystick in circles. lol


:/

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I do that. I rotate the control stick around like crazy *messes up DI a lot of the time* and mash pretty much y,x, a and b. Sometimes even the L and R buttons xD

Does rotating even do that mucH?

 

[SuSa]

Rotation of joystick = -4 frames
Button Input = -4 frames
I do believe L/R also do -4 frames.

So mashing ABYX, hitting L/R, and rotating the joystick is your best bet.

I think C-stick can be hit once for -4 frames, but only once. :/ Unsure about that....

Base is 90 frames (23 inputs to break) + 1.8 frames per % (every 2% means you need another input basically...)

 

[o-Serin-o]

Update that **** D3 v Snake matchup >=[

 

[Fogel]

Hi everyone! I figured I'd try and help out with summaries, so I put one together for the Luigi matchup to start. Most of the discussion was from the Luigi side (we were kind of quiet), so I took what they had and rewrote it from our point of view.

It's been a while since that discussion happened, so I figure I'll post what I've got here and see what everyone has to say about it. Let me know if I missed anything or if there are any big mistakes.



Difficulty: 55:45 Snake’s favor

Expect:

• Quick, high-priority aerials
• Strong KO moves which kill at low percentages even with proper DI
• Gimps offstage with f-air/d-air
• Long combo chains when Snake is at low percentages
• Fireballs to help approaches, and for spam
• Tornadoes along the ground to get in

Strategy:

You need to keep Luigi away from you in this matchup; Luigi has great combos and many ways to start them, but he has to get into melee range first. Stay on the ground as much as possible; as with most of Snake's matchups, you don't want to fight in the air, especially not against Luigi. Most of Snake's aerials are slow, whereas all of Luigi's are very fast, plus lead to the possibility of air combos, so it's risky to try and trade hits.

At far/medium range, try to keep him away using grenades and c4 (mines are not as effective since he can just fireball them). Luigi will throw fireballs to either try and camp, or as a spacing tool to get in on you. Powershield or jab them; try to avoid rolling/sidestepping, as Luigi can use that delay as a chance to get in. Eventually, Luigi will try to move in. You can punish most approaches with spaced tilts, but be wary of becoming predictable with your punishes. Also, watch out for the tornado; Luigi can move very quickly along the ground with this and it has good range. However, you can stop this approach by holding on to a grenade, or dropping one in front of you. If he gets too close, shield and the tornado will explode the grenade.

At low percentages, any Luigi n-air, u-tilt, or grab will lead into a combo. If their timing is not the greatest, you can try to grenade counter them out of it, but otherwise, there's not much you can do. DI away at the earliest opportunity. At mid-high percentages, watch out for Luigi's KO moves. An upward-angled f-smash can kill in the 90-110% percent range, depending on stage, even with proper DI. Also, watch out for sneaky Up-Bs, which will KO even earlier than the angled f-smash (around mid-60s). Watch out for the Jab->Up-B combo, and be wary of rolling towards Luigi, as he could predict the roll and Up-B you out of it. Even if you don't get KOed, you will be knocked out of position, and into the air where you need to watch out for combos/gimps.

When being edgeguarded, watch out for f-air and d-air spikes offstage. It can be difficult to avoid a good Luigi going after you off the side, so be as unpredictable as possible and do your best to get back over the stage. When recovering from above, try and use grenades, momentum shifting, and c4 to keep him away and get back on stage. Trying to hit Luigi with aerials is risky, as Luigi's own aerials come out very fast, so it's unlikely you'll be able to hit him before he can hit you.

For edgeguarding, you need to be careful. Luigi has the advantage in the air, so it's risky to jump off after him. You don't want to be hit out of an attack and risk getting gimped. Also, random Misfires can mess up your timing/spacing. If Luigi is recovering from below, dropping a c4 off-stage can be used to try and stage spike, or to KO up top if he is at a high enough percentage. Nikita can also be used to edgeguard, depending on the situation. Due to Luigi's high priority aerials, it can be risky to just jump off and aerial him, so pressuring from on the stage (throwing grenades, using nikita, or setting up mines/c4 on stage depending on the situation) is preferable.


Counterpicks:

Final Destination : Luigi is forced to approach without the help of platforms, and the stage is long enough that Snake can use grenades and c4 to make it tough to get in.

Smashville: Very similar to FD. The moving platform can be mined/c4ed to prevent Luigi from using it to get in on Snake.


Bans:

Rainbow Cruise : Luigi is much stronger in the air than Snake, and it's hard to maintain stage control due to all of the stage movement, so this one should be avoided.

Frigate Orpheon: The stage is very small on a lot of its transformations, meaning it's hard to keep Luigi away. Luigi can also get easy gimps with all of the off-stage action going on, and stage transformations could put you in a bad position.

 

[Red Arremer]

Hello Snakes! :D

The Fox boards are currently re-discussing their match-up vs. Snake. We'd appreciate your input! <3
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244973

 

[Panix]

So.....Samus anyone?

 

[DMG]

Reflex breaks out of grabs fasts usually because he is already mashing by the time you grab him. I and a few others do the same as well. If we think we are gonna get grabbed, sometimes we mash BEFORE the grab even comes lol. Sounds silly, but it works.

Dedede you can break out of his grabs without him landing many pummels because he pummels very slow. Any pummel ratios you come up with ultimately have to be modified to suit that characters particular pummel rate.

Also, the Cstick does indeed aid in breaking out of grabs, however I think you have to let the Cstick reach neutral position for the next input. So while you cannot go Left and then Left Up immediately (you cannot swirl the Cstick in a circle like the Control Stick, you have to be precise with your directions), you can go left, neutral, Left Up/Right/Up/Down/etc.

 

[Ken Neth]

DMG!!! It was fun hanging out with you and DPhat at Genesis. I LOL'd so hard when you camped that crappy snake in crews XD

 

[DMG]

Same here, Genesis was a blast.

Snake vs ZSS? Ewww talk about campy matchup lol.

 

[Hot_ArmS]

i must see vids of this match crew match thats being discussed

 

[Ken Neth]

LOL He went like 4-5 minutes without getting hit or something like that. And then camped him all the way down to around a minute before he finally killed him accidentally. The Snake only had one stock coming into it too >_>

 

[DMG]

IDK if it was recorded or not, I don't think it was sadly.

Basically, what happened was at Genesis we had region crew battles. We had NorCal and SoCal, Washington, Puerto Rico, Europe (included Canada, Australia, and others), East Coast, South (Included Texas, Florida, and players like Reflex) and 1 other crew I think, don't remember ATM who they were.

(For those of you who do not know already, in crew battles usually they will set the timer to 99 minutes.)

So Europe plays the South, Hylian is facing the Snake from Australia and he gets him down to 1 stock and Hylian SD's once or twice on purpose to let me play the Snake. So I get up to the TV, the South KNOWS what's gonna happen, Europe realizes it's DMG and that I'm gonna pick Brinstar. So obviously, I pick Brinstar. Now, HERE is where this guy became my best friend for the rest of the trip.

I tell him I pick Brinstar, and before we can go to the stage screen, he goes up to the timer and puts it back down to 8 minutes. I was STUNNED, looked around to make sure I wasn't dreaming, to make sure I wasn't the only one who witnessed this... THIS... MIRACLE FROM GOD HIMSELF!

So right at that point, I almost felt like hugging the guy. So we get to the stage, and I camp for at least 4-5 minutes solid without taking a single % while still doing some damage to him. All of a sudden, I see my damage at 1%, and everyone is like YELLING that I got hit or something lol. People were like "DMG I'm so disappointed in you, you got hit." and stuff lol. So I take a bit more damage throughout the match, and with about a minute left I killed him with something on accident and people were like depressed that the match didn't go to time lol.

Later on either that day or the day after, the guys from Australia came by and asked me and a few others to sign their shirts. I was like "See guys, once you play gay enough, people will love you enough to ask for your signature" lol. I was in awe that they wanted me to do such a thing, ESPECIALLY THE SNAKE PLAYER who I had just camped earlier lol.


One of the best Smash events period. I loved it.

 

[Hot_ArmS]

rofllllllllllll dmg i want one too, mail me a signed shirt

"camping is intense (in tents)" x]

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Link's wants to talk about you Snake's

This thread hasn't been updated since July? Then again I'm not who should comment on something like that.

 

[AfroQT]

I just looked at the matchups for the first time (since i started playing...i dont use Snake boards lol) and i seriously have to say like half of it is wrong.

 

[Nic64]

Some of it is outdated by a lot, like it says Snake loses to Falco but Snake's haven't really been of that opinion for a pretty long time...

 

[Panix]

okay.....you guys need to at least update so we can talk about new people, just the title would be fine.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

i don't really agree with that ratio for olimar snake, its hard but in no way is it 60:40

 

[Ken Neth]

Yeah, it's way out of date but there is no one who's willing to take the time to update it.

And HRNUT, Oli is probably snake's hardest matchup... I personally believe it's 55:45 oli, but the 5 points aren't really worth arguing over. It's in Oli's favor though.