Common Knowledge that isn't so common..

SuSa · Oct 26, 2009

I'm bored as ****ing bored can get. :laugh:

so please, stay with me a while.

CK = Common Knowledge from this point on. Got it? I'm lazy.

I have created this thread as a means of teaching players (specifically the newer/intermediate level players) of little "tips and tricks" that apply to:

1) Brawl; Regardless of Character ("Global")
2) Specific Characters; EG: Characters that can glide, characters who.. meh, you get the point?
3) A single character; If you need an example - stop reading and go boot up Brawl, select Random. Got your character? Good, that's a single character.

All people can contribute, but I don't want things such as "MK, Pit, and Charizard can glide!" I want it to be little facts that, for the most part, are either little known (or at least you are fairly certain they are little known), or more character specific things that aren't that known (EG: Pikachu and Peach can dtilt, buffer a move, and they get a slide backwards. This is more known by Pikachu and Peach mains obviously... but beyond that, I don't think it's fairly common knowledge. It's not of much use, except it's used to edgeguard with 3-4 thunders as Pikachu... but.. worth mentioning nontheless?)

I'll get us started:

I said I was lazy, didn't I?

Awesome post my Kitamerby

Water stuff from Xeylode
More water stuff from Kitamerby

What, did you actually expect me to update the OP with everything? Ha! Don't be lazy and just click the above links. :-P

Global

You can dtilt without crouching! This actually improves the speed of your dtilt (You don't need to crouch first!) Simply lightly hold down, but not far or fast enough to crouch, then press A. (I only recently learned this myself thanks to my good friend CPU )
You can fall through a platform while shielding by lightly pressing down while in your shield. If you angle your shield, you went to slow. If you spotdodge, you went to fast.
You can pick up items while dashing, but only on platforms. As you approach the item press down then airdodge immediately. The timing is strict, but you'll instantly pick up the item. You can throw it from shield if you like.
Using the above mentioning "instant item grab", if there is no item placed - and with even stricter timing, you can press down, then airdodge, then immediately enter any move you wish. This allows you to perform any attack (including tilts) from a dash. This also, can only be done on platforms.

Character Group

Specific Characters

PRE-EDIT before posting:
Yes, this thread can turn pointless fast. In fact, I'm forcing myself to hit submit in the case that this thread, somehow, turns useful.... :laugh:

Underload · Oct 26, 2009

This thread...is cool.

But seriously, one thing I didn't know was, if you hold down while recovering with a character's up + b (ex. Marth, Samus), you won't grab the ledge if you pass it, a la Melee.

Nidtendofreak · Oct 26, 2009

Ike and Marth can dive under water by short hopping, and then hitting Down B.

Yays for tech only usable on three stages, and is terrible at Jungle Japes. :D

Kitamerby · Oct 26, 2009

You can jab by pressing the control stick and c-stick in opposite directions horizontally...

Hard to explain, but for example 45 degrees forwards-down on control stick, 45-degrees backwards-down on the c-stick will let you jab while walking/crouching. Works for other angles too.

C-stick smashes can be charged with Z. This lets you charge smashes with ICs without throwing.

You can perform Specials with the c-stick by pressing B at the right time with the c-stick.

Pivot grabs are easiest to perform with c-stick backwards + Z, so you can tap back on the control stick to dash back, c-stick forwards + Z to pivot grab forwards.

Tethers only can grab the ledge 3 times before landing on the stage again. If you try to tether the 4th time, it'll fail and you'll drop normally in the "air-tether animation"/go into fallspecial if Olimar or Ivysaur.

Snake's grenade cancels into a shield upon landing with no vulnerable frames. There are no actual "landing frames" for it because the grenade directly cancels into a shield upon landing and thus bypasses normal landing frames. Other shield-cancelable moves can do the same thing if the shield button is pressed at just the right time.

If you're grounded, buffering an aerial using the c-stick and up on the control stick will always result in a short hop aerial. This helps some people with autocanceling and short hop fairs/dairs/uairs/bairs out of shield.

There's a way to use the tether attack from a ledgehop. I forget how. I think it has to do with holding back and pressing Z, but I forget.

Tether attacks can be performed immediately to interrupt an airdodge with Z.

Fastfall aerials and airdodges can't go through platforms, but normal fastfalling can.

Not all moves are equally SDIable. Some moves like Zelda's Usmash are actually made to be insanely hard to SDI out of.

Short hopping gives you 2 frames of landing lag. Fastfalling, double jumping, or landing from a higher height gives you 4 iirc.

Falco/Fox's Dthrow can be reflected with the Franklin Badge. Falco/Fox will take the damage and the hit. It's funny.

You can move while doing tilt-sticked neutral aerials. (C-stick set to Attack). There's a big difference between these and neutral aerials performed with the A button. Ike can't ledgehop nair without a tilt-stick iirc unless he's frame perfect.

I'll think of more later.

Edit: Fox/Ness/Wolf/Lucas can all roll/spotdodge/jump/usmash/up B immediately after absorbing/reflecting a projectile.

To jump/usmash/up B out of shield, make sure that you do not release the shield button. Tap upwards while holding the shield button to cancel it directly.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Oct 26, 2009

If Yoshi is in water, he can immediately jump and than perform DownB. If done correct, he will dive bomb underwater as if he perfomed DownB high in the air.

On Pirate Ship this can be applied for a method of stalling. Since Yoshi will not actually die when he does this underwater, he will simply fall to almost the bottom of the screen, but then start to swim up at the last second. When he is swimming you are in essence untoucheable because no one can hit you from that far down underwater until you get towards the surface. But this is not the stalling method.

Go the rear of the pirate ship and swim to the very back end of it. Perform what I mentioned above, and when yoshi is swimming back upwards, tilt the control stick slightly to the left, then let go and have yoshi just keep swimming upwards. If you go to far left the ship will simply kill you like the front end does. If you do not tilt enough, you will simply pop up to the surface, you go the correct distance, yoshi will get caught underneath some lip at the bottom of the boat and will just stall underneath the lip of the ship.

Since you do not drown when swimming back the he surface yoshi can stay here indefinitly (or until the ship gets hit by th hurricane or hits the rock). And as I mentioned before, no one can hit you below the stage when you are that far down under. I've done this before and it's really gay to use on someone.

Kitamerby · Oct 26, 2009

That reminds me. Captain Falcon will suicide if he attempts to dive underwater with jump to downB on Pirate Ship. He just goes too far down.

The characters that can dive under the pirate ship rudder are Ganondorf(downB), Falcon(downb), Game and Watch(dair), Pikachu(upB), Sonic(dair), ZSS(dair), Sheik(dair), ICs(dair), and Yoshi(downB) iirc. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wario can too if he bites someone, I guess.

They can also dive under that big rock when it appears and the ship crashes into it. It's actually hollow. If you dive under it, you can actually jump up while inside it and attack people on the rock. If you watch a GnW fight on Pirate Ship, you'll usually see them going under the rock whenever possible.

Spelt · Oct 27, 2009

yoshi can also do it with side b.

SamuraiPanda · Oct 27, 2009

Kitamerby said:
Not all moves are equally SDIable. Some moves like Zelda's Usmash are actually made to be insanely hard to SDI out of.

Zelda's upsmash is actually rather odd in the case of SDI. You cannot SDI attacks that do less than 1% damage (add that to this thread :D). The individual hits of Zelda's upsmash actually end up doing less than 1% each after she uses the attack twice, so its literally impossible to SDI out of if its slightly staled.

Thanks to Scotu and Ankoku telling me that like a million years ago :D

SuSa · Oct 27, 2009

If you take a look at it in PSA, it actually has 1/2 the normal amount allowed to SDI. There are some moves that you cannot SDI at all (tipped Marth hits)

I don't think it has anything to do with less then 1%. I think the SDI in the cast would just not be noticeable. (It seems to me if I SDI at a higher % I move farther then at a lower %... so doing less damage may just appear to not move at all)

bobson · Oct 27, 2009

Kitamerby said:
The characters that can dive under the pirate ship rudder are Ganondorf(downB), Falcon(downb), Game and Watch(dair), Pikachu(upB), Sonic(dair), ZSS(dair), Sheik(dair), ICs(dair), and Yoshi(downB) iirc. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wario can too if he bites someone, I guess.

MK can do it with down-B and Wario falls straight through water when he's on the bike, so he can do it, too. Fox can also get under there with shine, and Wolf and Pikachu with up-B. Kirby can use his hammer to get under, and Ike's and Marth's counters both work. Most things that stop aerial momentum will get you under there.

Tapping up while in water will make you full hop out of it even if tap jump is off, and you can smash up-B directly out of it.

Rainbow Cruise has six ledges. Two on the boat, two on either side of the platform immediately after the boat, and two on the upper side usually blocked off by donut platforms.

Zairs all have no landing lag whatsoever.

Ganondorf can do things.

DanGR · Oct 27, 2009

I guess I'll do Olimar.

Diminishing returns applies to attacks used to attack pikmin.

Damage less than 2% (So attacks that do only 1%) will not be subtracted from a pikmin's overall health.

The pikmin in Olimar's fsmash is a PROJECTILE in every sense of the word.

Kitamerby said:
You can move while doing tilt-sticked neutral aerials. (C-stick set to Attack). There's a big difference between these and neutral aerials performed with the A button. Ike can't ledgehop nair without a tilt-stick iirc unless he's frame perfect.

It's not terribly difficult. >.> I really doubt you have to be perfect.

phi1ny3 · Oct 27, 2009

Oh, time to clear up lucario misconceptions:
-Lucario FP is NOT A TRUE CG. You can mash out of it like a normal grab, and it is far from humanly impossible.
-Lucario's range DOESN'T increase with aura. Only damage, knockback, and shieldstun (making his moves more safe on block)
-DT is reversable on command, but it's a garbage move anyways
-Lucario's aura gets boosts/deboosts from stock difference. This even applies to FREE FOR ALL games and DOUBLES.
-Lucario has transcendent priority on the aura hitboxes, but you can clank with his paws/feet, so he has a slight benefit of having both.
Might add some more soon.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Oct 27, 2009

phi1ny3 said:
-Lucario's range DOESN'T increase with aura. Only damage, knockback, and shieldstun (making his moves more safe on block)

Wait! So you mean that hitstun of the attack does not increase any for lucario, but shieldstun does? Wouldn't that essientially give Lucario better frame advantage on block? So say Ftilt has a -11 frame advantge at 0% on a someone's shield. At 170%, it becomes -6 frame advantage on a someone's shield. Is that a correct assumption to make?

Kitamerby · Oct 27, 2009

Xeylode said:
Wait! So you mean that hitstun of the attack does not increase any for lucario, but shieldstun does? Wouldn't that essientially give Lucario better frame advantage on block? So say Ftilt has a -11 frame advantge at 0% on a someone's shield. At 170%, it becomes -6 frame advantage on a someone's shield. Is that a correct assumption to make?

Yes, and it's something I've been trying to tell people for awhile, lol.

The numbers probably aren't correct though.

Darnit Phil, giving away all our secrets.

Phil, take it down quickly before people realize we're not broken!

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Oct 27, 2009

Kitamerby said:
Yes, and it's something I've been trying to tell people for awhile, lol.

The numbers probably aren't correct though.

I just made those number up on the spot. Frame data could really change how people view Lucario. At that higher percent, he could almost become impossible to touch with the range that Ftilt and Fsmash have, and how difficult it would be to punish those moves. Have you guys done anything regarding lucairo yet with those numbers? I'm just interested in knowing where that will go.

-Ran · Oct 27, 2009

Game and Watch can Up B through the 'circular thingies' on Brinstar to instantly refresh almost all of his moves.

theunabletable · Oct 27, 2009

Really? I'd think it'd just unstale them a little bit (however much gets unstaled by doing one attack).

So if I were to use MKs 'nado on that, would it instantly refresh all of his moves?

-Ran · Oct 27, 2009

I remember hearing UTD Zac mention this during a friendly in May. I haven't tested it.

Kitamerby · Oct 27, 2009

Xeylode said:
I just made those number up on the spot. Frame data could really change how people view Lucario. At that higher percent, he could almost become impossible to touch with the range that Ftilt and Fsmash have, and how difficult it would be to punish those moves. Have you guys done anything regarding lucairo yet with those numbers? I'm just interested in knowing where that will go.

I'm too lazy. I haven't started yet. I'll get to it eventually, lol.

Maybe I'll check it out this week once I find that debug code again.

theunabletable · Oct 27, 2009

I'll definitely test it tomorrow (for both G&W and MK).

ook · Oct 27, 2009

There's a picture of a kitty in the ice stage of pokemon stadium 2

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/08/Cat2.jpg

ndayday · Oct 27, 2009

Always ban Norfair when going against a good Link. Your chances of winning the set increase by 30%.

I guess some people might not know that.

<π · Oct 27, 2009

I didn't know that sheild thing. this is a good thread. I'm gonna link saviors to it.

Uffe · Oct 27, 2009

Grab Gimping

This topic shows which characters can and cannot be grab gimped.

Grab Gimping Video

This video shows it in action. I wasn't the one who found this sort of thing out and it's not something that only Ness can do. As we all know, Snake can get grabbed out of his Up B which then leads to either a quick C4 recovery or his death. But he's not the only one who suffers from this. This was shared by Yink and Joker490Frozen made a video on it.

Palpi · Oct 27, 2009

Yeah, the only reason the dthrow -> dtilt on snake works (with king d3) is because of lightly holding down for the d-tilt.

SuSa · Oct 27, 2009

Palpi said:
Yeah, the only reason the dthrow -> dtilt on snake works (with king d3) is because of lightly holding down for the d-tilt.

Yah, that's how I found out from CPU. He managed to hit me with the dtilt, and I was amazed. First DDD to do that.

So I asked him how. :3

Updated OP

Kofu · Oct 27, 2009

Palpi said:
Yeah, the only reason the dthrow -> dtilt on snake works (with king d3) is because of lightly holding down for the d-tilt.

It's also critical for many of Ganondorf's DTilt Gerudo followups.

Tidal · Oct 27, 2009

I would like to see this thread turn into a sticky containing all "common knowledge" new players are supposed to know. I never saw a word about what "wavebouncing" actually meant until I discovered it by accident and found it it was "common knowledge". Several very basic things like pivot grabbing should also be included, because good players often find it hard to imagine someone is able to not know such a thing.

OverLade · Oct 27, 2009

You can footstool MKs tornado, which results in bouncing on top of the tornado, rather than getting sucked in. You can use this to avoid getting juggled if MK tornados early or if you predict it. A lot of characters can punish nado more easily this way.

Zankoku · Oct 27, 2009

SuSa said:
If you take a look at it in PSA, it actually has 1/2 the normal amount allowed to SDI. There are some moves that you cannot SDI at all (tipped Marth hits)

I don't think it has anything to do with less then 1%. I think the SDI in the cast would just not be noticeable. (It seems to me if I SDI at a higher % I move farther then at a lower %... so doing less damage may just appear to not move at all)

With the exception of attacks with pre-defined hitlag (electric knee, Marth tipper, lightning kick), all attacks have hitlag directly related to the amount of damage they deal in %. While fractional % is kept track of, when calculating hitlag for it you get a very useless 0 frames of hitlag. Zelda's usmash doubly screws people over by having restricted SDI and, if decayed, dealing under 1% damage per hit.

I did also notice that certain attacks have defined allowances of SDI, though. Stupid jabs.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to mention why hitlag is important to SDI. You are allowed exactly one SDI input per frame of hitlag.

phi1ny3 · Oct 27, 2009

Lucario boards are pretty lazeh, Kita and I are prolly the only guys that look on PSA much. It's a work in progress, but we really should be getting more on the complete shield advantage stuff.
Oh and Kita, if you find that debug code, send it to me via IM plz. If I find it, I'll send it to you as well :D

Kinzer · Oct 27, 2009

Kitamerby said:
I'm too lazy. I haven't started yet. I'll get to it eventually, lol.

Maybe I'll check it out this week once I find that debug code again.

phi1ny3 said:
Lucario boards are pretty lazeh, Kita and I are prolly the only guys that look on PSA much. It's a work in progress, but we really should be getting more on the complete shield advantage stuff.
Oh and Kita, if you find that debug code, send it to me via IM plz. If I find it, I'll send it to you as well :D

Looking for this?

Debug Pause:-(GCC) [Illinialex24]
80000000 805B8A08
0402E5AC 8819000B
4A000000 804DE470
38000000 EFFF1000
86410000 00000001
E2000001 00000000
4A000000 805B8A08
3A000002 00FF0000
12000002 00000001
E2000001 00000000
4A000000 804DE470
38000000 FFEF0010
4A000000 805B8A08
3A000002 FF000000
12000002 00000100
E2000002 00000000

Button Modifier: [Illinialex24]
041E6CD8 4BE1C128
041E6D1C 4BE1C114
06002E00 00000068
9421FF80 BC410008
7CE4402E 7CE738F8
7CE73039 3864FFC0
7CE3412E 7CC4412E
B8410008 38210080
60000000 481E3EB0
9421FF80 BC410008
7C03202E 3DC01000
7DCE70F8 7C007039
740E0408 3DE00408
7C0E7800 40820008
64001000 B8410008
38210080 481E3EBC

phi1ny3 · Oct 27, 2009

^YESZ.
<Falcon Pawnch!>

_Phloat_ · Oct 27, 2009

Umm...

If GaW is using his u-air to juggle you in the air, it is NOT a neutral situation, and you should leave it as soon as possible... If you are effected by the wind, it counts as a hit and you are refreshing his moves.

He can also do this to balloons and pillars, if you are playing a GaW who is using his u-air for seemingly no reason, go stop him... He is probably refreshing his moves.

Yumewomiteru · Oct 27, 2009

When DK grabs you in his cargo throw (f-throw), he can jump by pressing up even with tap jump off. He also have 4 ways to throw you, one thing to be aware of is him running off the edge with you, turn around at the last second, and throw you UNDER the stage with dthrow so there is nothing to tech on.

Also, when DK is charging his punch in the air, if he press shield he air dodges, if he holds shield he interrupts the charge w/o airdodging.

Snake can do instant jump OOS our of a grenade stance, and he can aerial from there and pick up the grenade with the aerial, a very good option for snake IMO.

Any move that can be wavebounced can also be reverse wavebounced, meaning you can reverse your momentum w/o turning around, do this by doing a reverse move and wavebounce it.

Wario's waft and DK's punch have the most ~~damage~~ EDIT: knockback when they're not fully charged.

Snake's C4 can be autocancelled.

Kinzer · Oct 27, 2009

Yumewomiteru said:
Wario's waft and DK's punch have the most damage when they're not fully charged.

Don't you mean knockback?

At least I know that's how it works with Wario, I don't know about the Dawnkay Pawnch!

theunabletable · Oct 27, 2009

Ok so I just tested right now. Up B-ing with G&W on those little circle things does NOT fully refresh your moves. It only refreshes your moves as much as using just one attack on something.

#HBC | ZoZo · Oct 27, 2009

_Phloat_ said:
Umm...

If GaW is using his u-air to juggle you in the air, it is NOT a neutral situation, and you should leave it as soon as possible... If you are effected by the wind, it counts as a hit and you are refreshing his moves.

He can also do this to balloons and pillars, if you are playing a GaW who is using his u-air for seemingly no reason, go stop him... He is probably refreshing his moves.

It isn't because GaW can refresh the situation, making it never neutral

Also, you can use your moves and if you 'hit' the wind hitboxes you refresh your own moves also.

Kitamerby · Oct 27, 2009

Kinzer said:
Looking for this?
*CODE*

DAGNABBIT KINZER.

Now I have to stop being lazy.

This topic is turning into a general matchup discussion instead of common knowledge. =(

Kinzer · Oct 27, 2009

Glad to be of service~! ^_^

Common Knowledge that isn't so common..

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stuck on a whole different plaaaanet

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