Pirate Ship: how to abuse the stage and why it should be banned

Pirate Ship: how to abuse the stage and why it should be banned

Pirate Ship is currently a legal counter pick in many tournaments and is very well liked among some and hated among others. Opinion aside, the stage has one major flaw to it. This flaw would be the rudder of the ship (the tiny piece of wood that is turned left and right to control the ship), which, unlike the bow and the underbelly of the ship, does not have a hitbox to kill players when they move below the ship. This may not seem to be that big of a deal at first, because, after all, what difference could this little chunk of wood make? Surprisingly, it causes matches to become horridly degenerate in the wrong hands.

What is the problem?

So, first and foremost, what is this stage breaking tactic? Well, to answer that question, the name of the tactic is "ruddercamping," and it's the act of using a short hopped aerial or special to cause the player's character to sink into the water and then float up underneath the boat and get caught on the the ship's rudder, which, unlike the rest of the ship, will not instantly kill you.

To perform this, go onto Pirate Ship with Ganondorf and run into the body of water on the right side of the screen. Short hop down B with Ganondorf; if done properly, you will fly down so far into the water you will show up as a little red circle for a few moments. Now that you can perform this dive, move closer to the back of the ship and perform the tactic again and you will notice you can swim under the ship. If you swim under the ship to far you will hit the belly of the ship and instantly die, however, if you float up at just the right spot you can catch the rudder of the ship and stay underwater as long as you like.

Here's an image displaying ruddercamping given to me by bobson.

(Here is a demonstration of rudder camping. I do not own or take credit for this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTkjItgz5c0)

So why does this matter?

Let's say a player gets a stock lead and then runs away and uses the ruddercamping tactic to move under the rudder of the ship. The player under the ship now appears to be completely safe from all forms of attack and can simply wait until the clock runs out and he or she wins the match.

But can't we just disqualify the person for stalling and make this a non-issue?

Taken from the recommended rule set
"Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling"

Sadly, ruddercamping is called camping—not stalling—for a reason. Ruddercamping can be defeated by most characters, and, if someone does not know how to fight ruddercamping, then the person on stage, by not fighting, is the person stalling, not the person under the rudder. Getting disqualified from a tournament for stalling when your opponent is swimming underwater seems very fair right?

So who can stop ruddercamping and how?

Those who can stop ruddercamping using projectiles. Group 1
The use of a projectile to prevent this is straightforward and easy to understand not much is needed to be said on the manner. If the words are in red then it means that if the King of the Red Lions is on stage you cannot stop the ruddercamping in any way.

Mario can use his Neutral-B. Group 1
Rob can use his Neutral-B
Pit can use his Neutral-B
Pikachu can use his or her Neutral-B
Snake can use his Neutral-B
Lucas can use his Up-B
Ness can use his Up-B
King Dedede can use his Side-B.
Zelda can use her Side-B
Samus can use her Side-B
Diddy can use his Down-B
Peach can use her Down-B
Link can use his Down-B

Those who can stop ruddercamping using diving. Group 2
Diving refers to using a short hopped move to launch yourself into the water and hit the foe. This is also very effective, but not as effective as using a projectile. Some characters have to wait for the ship to bob up slightly to move under the ship and many of these characters will kill themselves if they mess up, although with practice that stops being an issue.

Sonic Can use his Down-air
Toon Link can use his Down-air
Mr. Game and Watch can use his Down-air
:shiek: Sheik can use her Down-air
Zerosuit Samus can use her Down-air
Ice climbers can use their Down-air
Ganondorf can use his Down-B
Captain Falcon can use his Down-B
Yoshi can use his Down-B
Wolf can use his Up-B
Wario can use Side-B

Those who can stop ruddercamping using a pushing method. Group 3
Pushing refers to the act of using an attack to drop yourself into the water that does not do damage to the person under the rudder. In order to combat ruddercamping, you must perform the move to enter the water and then physically swim against them to push them into the ship's death zone.

Kirby can use his Side-B
Ike can use his Down-B
Fox can use his Down-B
Metaknight can use his Down-B
Marth can use his Down-B

Those who cannot stop ruddercamping in any way shape or form. Group 4









Why groups 3 and 4 are equally ineffective when combating ruddercamping.

When comparing the effectiveness of groups 3 and 4, I like to use a hypothetical scenario between Ganondorf and Fox which illustrates how simply pushing the opponent results in very little positive results.

The stage is set: Ganondorf is in the lead by one stock with 193% damage. He is facing fox coming back with 50% damage, because fox got nailed by a bomb while not looking (the damage source makes no difference really). Ganondorf, knowing full well he cannot win this encounter, runs into the water and uses his down-B to stay below the rudder. Fox thinks he has Ganondorf in checkmate and runs into the water as well and uses his down-B to move downwards into the water.

Situation 1

Now that he is moving down, Fox can move to his left to push Ganondorf into the death zone on the ship and kill Ganondorf. Ganondorf, however, knows this and decides to move to the right to avoid this. Ganondorf passes fox and floats to the surface while Fox is still below him. Fox is still behind and needs to kill Ganondorf, so he floats back up as well but he is now in danger because leaving the water you are highly susceptible to a Ganondorf down air. Fox now has two choices: float up get nailed in the face by Ganondorfs boot and die a painful death, or stay below the rudder and wait as Ganondorf wins by default.

Situation 2

Now that he is moving down, Fox can move to his left to push Ganondorf into the death zone on the ship and kill Ganondorf. Ganondorf, however, knows this and decides to move to the right to avoid this. Ganondorf meets Fox and continues to swim to the right while Fox swims left, and a stalemate occurs. Ganondorf suddenly realizes that if he stops swimming to the right he will die and at the same time Fox realizes that if he stops swimming left then Ganondorf will do what we just read in Situation 1. Both Ganondorf and Fox, in what can only be described as a battle of power and skill, violently swim right and left respectively! This continues until one gives up and dies or the time runs out and Ganondorf wins by default.

So how does affect me?

Pirate Ship deals out a disgusting amount of bias in many match-ups and if your tournament is going to have Pirate Ship legal I highly suggest you abuse this yourself. Ruddercamping is capable of being stopped by the majority of characters and as a result the tactic is not bad enough to deserve a ban on it. Because of this, you cannot be disqualified for ruddercamping according to the SBR recommended rule set, which I assume your TO will be following.

In total, if you calculate how many match-ups become a one stock = win situation, you end up with an absurd amount.

There are 8 characters who cannot stop ruddercamping and 17 who can get under the rudder totaling 136 matches. If you add in the match-ups between the 5 who can ruddercamp but cannot stop it effectively themselves, you end up with a total of 85 match-ups totaling 221 degenerate match-ups out of a total of 1369 possible match-ups.

My advice to you.

You cannot be disqualified for ruddercamping and it can give you free wins if your opponent does not know how to combat it or is playing a character that cannot combat it. My advice to you would be to either ask your local tournament official to ban Pirate Ship or to go out and get a few free victories in tournament and as a result money. There are 221 matches that this is near guaranteed to work. The tornado and rock are the only things that can help an ignorant player or a character who cannot stop ruddercamping, and they both appear randomly during a match, if at all. The rock's appearance is bad but not as bad as the tornado, because you can camp under the rock in the same way you can under the rudder. The tornado leaves you open for however long it lasts, but you can abuse the low gravity making this trivial as well. So go out there get some free money and maybe a tournament under your belt while you are at it.

The conclusion

Pirate Ship suffers the plague of a silly and degenerate tactic which is not worthy of being banned. If a tournament official wants to allow Pirate Ship, he or she must be ready to deal with the complaints of players losing to a legal but very frustrating tactic. If the tournament official disqualifies a player because they used ruddercamping, the tournament official will be in jeopardy of being called out for banning a tactic which does not guarantee a win the vast majority of match-ups. If a tournament official wants to be safe, then the best option would be to ban Pirate Ship.

Enjoy those free wins if your TO does not ban the stage. Hopefully you have enjoyed reading this post. Thanks to Sucumbio, and Bobson, for their help.

Pretty sure it'd be counted as stalling....

"The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable."

Sitting under the rudder = avoiding any and all conflict
Opponent can't attack you = makes the game unplayable

Any TO to not give them a warning or DQ the person probably shouldn't be a TO..... >_<

TOs will ban it. TO's don't follow the recommended rule list word for word, otherwise the stage list they recommended would be the norm everywhere.

If the area allows PS, they will be smart enough to ban Rudder Stalling. It's an non-issue. That, and you need a stock lead otherwise you will take bubble damage and lose % wise.

And for the record: Good luck getting under the rock if you are busy under the rudder against an opponent that isn't braindead.

Colaya said:

Pretty sure it'd be counted as stalling....

"The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable."

Sitting under the rudder = avoiding any and all conflict
Opponent can't attack you = makes the game unplayable

Any TO to not give them a warning or DQ the person probably shouldn't be a TO..... >_<

Click to expand...

"But can't we just disqualify the person for stalling and make this a non-issue?"

Taken from the recommended rule set
"Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling"

Sadly, ruddercamping is called camping—not stalling—for a reason. Ruddercamping can be defeated by most characters, and, if someone does not know how to fight ruddercamping, then the person on stage, by not fighting, is the person stalling, not the person under the rudder. Getting disqualified from a tournament for stalling when your opponent is swimming underwater seems very fair right?

Planking is beatable by many characters, and yet tournaments put up a ledge grab max.

It will be banned. TOs do what they want. Heck, Xyro has it so you can't wall infinity anyone more then 2 throws IIRC, and his tournaments get big turnouts. That's WITH MK banned most of the time.

its not on at most tourneys, i personally have a love hate reltionship with this board. i like the water for spikes though

Nidtendofreak said:

Planking is beatable by many characters, and yet tournaments put up a ledge grab max.

It will be banned. TOs do what they want. Heck, Xyro has it so you can't wall infinity anyone more then 2 throws IIRC, and his tournaments get big turnouts. That's WITH MK banned most of the time.

Click to expand...

Many people see things that should not be banned and choose to ban them because they seem very unfair. If those things deserve a ban is the real question and let me say that ruddercamping does not deserve a ban. To compare my view on rudder camping to other elements of the game, I like to refer to the first time I fought a good Ice Climbers player.

The first time I fought a good Ice Climber player I ran at them as if they were any other character and got caught in a grab then taken from near zero percent to death. I was furious and I was told later on "dont get grabbed". The statement "dont get grabbed" was not straightforward in the least and left me with no idea what I should do other than say "how do I not get grabbed?". If someone is ruddercamping and they are fighting any character in groups one or two then you can look at the list I posted and say "learn to short hop down-air", or "learn to press neutral-B".

People don't often ban the Ice Climbers chain grabs because they are not worthy of being banned at the very most they limit the chain grabs but still allow them to some degree. Why would we ban something easier to stop just because it seems unfair? If someone loses to ruddercamping they should be forced to take the loss because they could have and should have stopped it. The only time ruddercamping can ever be justified to be banned is if someone is using ruddercamping against those eight who cannot stop it because for them it is not beatable and thus stalling not camping.

If Pirate Ship is allowed then you will need a TO to watch every match on Pirate Ship to make sure a legal tactic is never being used in the rare situations where it becomes illegal. The final result of this unneeded TO interference will be unjustified disqualifications because it will require a TO to know the entire list and be able to recognize everything in this thread immediately.

If Pirate Ship is allowed then you will need a TO to watch every match on Pirate Ship to make sure a legal tactic is never being used in the rare situations where it becomes illegal.

Click to expand...

You mean a TO will need to be on rare occasions called over to watch a match if someone uses an illegal tactic in order to prevent them from doing so again.

It's a banned tactic. Stop trying to use technicalities to say Rudder Stalling isn't banned. You're acting as if this hasn't been seen before. Rudder Stall was discovered a while back. There is a reason nobody has used it in a tournament: it's banned. 100% banned. Why? You can't say: "Oh, you can use that tactic against every character but X,Y,and Z". If it's something that is stage dependent (not D3's infinity, that's character dependent), you ban that tactic on the stage instead of throwing away a perfectly good CP.

Circle camping is a different matter before that gets brought up to refute my last statement. It's sometimes hard not to accidently circle camp. You're being chased, you run the opposite direction trying to rest the situation to neutral/avoid being KO'd. You end up circle camping. To Rudder Stall, you have to put yourself in that situation on purpose.

So if you can't do this dive thing, Toon Link can't use the water to spike people?
Yeah, that's great.

If it becomes a wide spread problem (which I doubt it will) I'm sure they could probably ban rudder camping rather than banning the entire stage. I mean, why cut off the whole arm if all you need to do is remove a bullet?

It seems like a tactic that the Smash Gods would deem bad. It probably would be a bannable tactic if everybody abused it.

can you give us a youtube vid/link to show us?

banning unfair tactics is something that has been done before. when most TOs find out about this, they'll either ban the stage or ban the tactic proper. if anyone is caught doing it, they'd most likely be commanded to get out from under the rudder, and if they refuse, a banning. Really need to mess with this one though personally, rather... interesting.

Ryne said:

can you give us a youtube vid/link to show us?

Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTkjItgz5c0

This video shows two ways in which a short hop-whatever can be used to get under parts of the stage. The second part of the video is ruddercamping. (This is not my video and I do not take credit for it)

HelpR said:

banning unfair tactics is something that has been done before. when most TOs find out about this, they'll either ban the stage or ban the tactic proper. if anyone is caught doing it, they'd most likely be commanded to get out from under the rudder, and if they refuse, a banning. Really need to mess with this one though personally, rather... interesting.

Click to expand...

Ruddercamping is only unfair if you are playing someone who is ignorant or playing one of the eight who cannot stop it. If someone is playing Pikachu (who is able to stop ruddercamping 100% of the time) and the player's opponent begins to ruddercamp and the Pikachu does not know how to stop it then why should the player under the rudder be disqualified? To stop ruddercamping as Pikachu you literally have to walk to the back of the ship and press B. Your opponent will be forced to either move out from under the rudder (and risk a punish) or stay under the ship get hit by the attack and die. Why should this be banned? If the Pikachu (or anyone else other than the eight) cannot stop ruddercamping it is a failure on the players part and is not worthy of being banned. How can we justify the baning of player mistakes and possibly claim this to be a competitive game?

Ruddercamping is easy to stop but really really terrible to watch happen to someone who does not know how to stop it. We cannot justifiably ban ruddercamping because it is so easy to stop but we can justify a ban of the stage on the grounds that it will prevent players from being subjected to the absolute monstrosity that is ruddercamping.

Ruddercamping is easy to stop but really really terrible to watch happen to someone who does not know how to stop it. We cannot justifiably ban ruddercamping because it is so easy to stop but we can justify a ban of the stage on the grounds that it will prevent players from being subjected to the absolute monstrosity that is ruddercamping.

Click to expand...

^That right there is an oxymoron.

If it's easy to stop, it's not enough to ban a stage. Even if a few characters can't stop it at all. Circling Camping is not easy to stop, hence why stages are banned because of it.

Seriously, you're not going to win this one dude. Rudder Camping is banned. It's a non-issue. It's not enough to have Pirate Ship banned. Nobody uses it because it's banned due to common sense. The fact that you can indeed rudder stall isn't THAT uncommon of knowledge. People outside of the stage discussion board do indeed know about it.

Nidtendofreak said:

^That right there is an oxymoron.

If it's easy to stop, it's not enough to ban a stage. Even if a few characters can't stop it at all. Circling Camping is not easy to stop, hence why stages are banned because of it.

Seriously, you're not going to win this one dude. Rudder Camping is banned. It's a non-issue. It's not enough to have Pirate Ship banned. Nobody uses it because it's banned due to common sense. The fact that you can indeed rudder stall isn't THAT uncommon of knowledge. People outside of the stage discussion board do indeed know about it.

Click to expand...

We cannot ban ruddercamping because it is easy to stop. However we can ban Pirate Ship because watching a player have to stand on a boat while the other person swims under the rudder is simply wrong.

If we disqualify the person under the rudder then we are disqualifying a player for his opponent not knowing how to play. If we sit back and watch then we are allowing a player to get a win by swimming into a piece of wood. Both options will wrong one of the players involved and a tournament official should not have to pick between the two.

good **** in here bro btw i agree with u

Again, if it became to much of a problem, tourney directors could just say "you can't do that." It doesn't have to be a delve in the definition of camping. The stage can still be playable without that one little thing

The_Altrox said:

Again, if it became to much of a problem, tourney directors could just say "you can't do that." It doesn't have to be a delve in the definition of camping. The stage can still be playable without that one little thing

Click to expand...

The only way a Tournament official can say "you can't do that." is by banning the stage. Otherwise (assuming the recommended rule set is being used) they are breaking their own rules. I personally have little tolerance for hypocrisy and most others I know share this same feeling.

Would you go to a tournament if you heard the person who runs the tournament disqualifies players for playing in a way that he thinks to be unfair? I sure wouldn't.

Your agenda is apparent that you want pirate ship banned , this is a tactic that could easily be banned even with a majority of the cast that can deal with it as some characters are completely shut out on that stage because of it. Its very easy to spot and easy to call a TO and I'm pretty sure at most tournament matches some people are watching so they can call it out as well

Sunshade, what you're saying doesn't actually make sense. It's similar (in a way) to banning hyrule temple due to people staying in "the cave" and simply teching over and over again to avoid death. However, the difference between what you call rudder "camping" and staying in the cave is that one is very easy to have happen and very hard to put a limit on (as putting a time limit or a % limit on being in that part of the stage is just ridiculous). The tactic that you describe is one that the person has to actually try to do, and this tactic gains virtually no benefit if you opponent knows how to stop it. So the only logical reason to use said tactic would be to gain a win because your opponent does not know or is not able to reach u. Which you could technically say "if they know how to combat it and are able to then it's camping not stalling and they shouldn't be disqualified for it".

The issue with what you say is that due to the only reason you would ever want to use this tactic being to stall out a player that does not know how to, or simply is unable to, hit you in such a position. Therefore, the stalling rule which states that you cannot "deliberately avoid any and all conflict", clearly covers this tactic, in which the opponents point to using this tactic is to, of their own intention, avoid all conflict for the remainder of time. While other tactics (such as ledgecamping or circle camping) can be deemed waiting for an opportunity, and are very hard to limit, this tactic has only one reasonable point, to make the game as unplayable as possible, and the player initiating that would have to know that to want to use this tactic. Therefore, it both follows the recommended ruleset, and it is very clear which player is at fault, since they are intentionally using a tactic that requires a rather obscure method to combat for a large majority of the cast (hoping their opponent does not know how), and that the only use for is to prevent combat.

Also, hyrule temple is banned because of the cave area. This is because it is very hard to effectively ban such a tactic, and thus the only reasonable solution is to simply remove the entire stage. This tactic clearly has a person initiating it, it almost certainly cannot be preformed by accident, and even if it was, that person would have to stay under the ship of their own accord to avoid combat, which makes it still their intent to avoid combat as to make the game unplayable and time itself out. The reasoning, therefore, to ban this tactic, is because it's only real use is to attempt to make the game unplayable and it's very clear which player is at fault and very easy to say "you cannot do this", as the tactic in question is not subjective.

the lengths that some people go...

sunshade said:

The only way a Tournament official can say "you can't do that." is by banning the stage. Otherwise (assuming the recommended rule set is being used) they are breaking their own rules. I personally have little tolerance for hypocrisy and most others I know share this same feeling.

Click to expand...

That's like saying we should ban Metaknight because he has the infinite cape glitch rather than banning the tactic itself.

Kawaiiness pretty much summed everything else up

Kawaiiness said:

the only reason you would ever want to use this tactic being to stall out a player that does not know how to, or simply is unable to, hit you in such a position. Therefore, the stalling rule which states that you cannot "deliberately avoid any and all conflict", clearly covers this tactic, in which the opponents point to using this tactic is to, of their own intention, avoid all conflict for the remainder of time.

Click to expand...

The response to this is wrong. I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote it. I wont delete it however because the next few responses will seem out of context.

Kawaiiness said:

Also, hyrule temple is banned because of the cave area. This is because it is very hard to effectively ban such a tactic, and thus the only reasonable solution is to simply remove the entire stage. This tactic clearly has a person initiating it, it almost certainly cannot be preformed by accident, and even if it was, that person would have to stay under the ship of their own accord to avoid combat, which makes it still their intent to avoid combat as to make the game unplayable and time itself out. The reasoning, therefore, to ban this tactic, is because it's only real use is to attempt to make the game unplayable and it's very clear which player is at fault and very easy to say "you cannot do this", as the tactic in question is not subjective.

Click to expand...

The issue is not if ruddercamping is easy to identify. Like you said it is very hard to accidentally begin to ruddercamp. The issue is if it is fair to disqualify a player for ruddercamping. Ruddercamping is beatable by a large majority of the cast and (I know I have said this before) if a player was banned for ruddercamping then we are saying "your opponent despite being able to hit you does not know how. You have now been removed from the tournament I hope you enjoy your day".

Placing "the knowledge of jumping" on the same level of obscurity as knowing a very random small stage glitch that prevents the character from being touched except under very specific circumstances is not even close to comparable. (In fact, it's almost as absurd as suggesting we ban standing still in case your opponent doesn't know how to hold a controller.) There are some things we simply should assume all players must know to compete and others that they should not have to learn so they don't suffer a loss b/c of a small glitch that creates a stall.

Besides for that, what you're saying is not correct, there are other reasons to be on a platform than simply to stall out a match, there is simply no other purpose to rudder camping, so we cannot limit being on top of a platform to eliminate stalling, we can remove this glitch from competitive play b/c u must try to do it and it's only use is to attempt to stall the match.

Aside from that, banning the stage b/c of this glitch is the exact same thing as banning the glitch in and of itself. Banning the glitch is simply a way of preserving the stage b/c, aside from one small glitch that you must intentionally initiate, it's a completely fair counterpick. So if we ban this stage because we should not expect all our players to learn this absurd glitch (since if every single player knew this glitch the only real use would be on characters who cannot combat it in any way), then the glitch would be a non issue and would never be used. So I don't see how u can justify banning the level because of a glitch that you claim is not a big enough issue to need banned in the first place, or why you would want to. If I owned some 45 houses, all of different shapes and qualities and one had a small hole in one of the walls, it's a lot easier to simply fill the hole (or if, for some reason I can't) to ignore the hole completely and use the house, unless there was some other reason the house was undesirable.

The reason a time limit is on a match in the first place is to not cause tournaments to be a 4 or 5 day event and keep a rough schedule. It was never intended to promote a style of gameplay where you completely avoid your opponent using various tricks to stall the clock out. It's simply too hard to limit some of the tricks, as they are so invested into the game there's no real way to and they usually come down to opinion on whether the player is actually attempting to stall (such as planking). This is the reason that stalling was banned in the first place, as we don't feel that being able to use small glitches and tricks to stall a match out for 8 minutes after getting a slight lead is actually skillfully winning the game and having competitive depth. Therefore, banning such glitches like this rudder "camping" (though it should really be called rudder stalling, as it it's only real use is stalling) is not only to be expected as a matter of common sense, but recommended to preserve the depth and skill involved in this game and not cause it to be a game revolving around gaining a lead and then initiating a glitch.

Since you already agree with me and have said that the level should be banned because of this glitch, you clearly feel this glitch does not belong in competitive play. Therefore, the reasonable course of action is to ban the use of the glitch, as compared to banning the level with the glitch in it (which effectively is the same thing, it's just removing the bullet and the arm as compared to the bullet). Your way (banning the level) is simply a more extreme variant of what you object to (banning the glitch).

Just as Kawaiiness said if ruddercampings only use is to stall than it is stall. I have gone back and tested to see if ruddercamping only had one use. I found out that if both players are using a character from groups B or C than ruddercamping will result in a win for whomever gets a stock advantage without the use of stalling. The guaranteed win to the person with the stock advantage is due to a guaranteed follow up into spike or down air camping after an attempted approach on a ruddercamper.

I already created a hypothetical situation for this with my Ganondorf/Fox battle in the main post however I never thought that the situation could be expanded onto group B as well as C. (the hypotetical will be at the bottom of this post if the reader does not want to go back to the first page.)

In the hypothetical, the Fox player drops down to push the Ganondorf player and is punished with a down air regardless of his actions after that point. If a character in group B dives down to hit the player under the rudder than the player under the rudder can move to the surface just like in the Ganondorf/Fox example. Most dive attacks if seen coming (its not like you have anything else to look out for so it will be really easy to see coming) can be avoided without being hit and allow a safe return to the top of the water while the opponent floats up. Now that the ruddercamper is above the other player he can follow up with a guaranteed spike. (I say guaranteed because the player is vulnerable for so long after reemerging from the water that a follow up is pathetically easy to land.) After the kill has been landed the ruddercamper then returns to the rudder and repeats.

I will also point out that characters without a meteor smash can get a free kill from this as well because if a move knocks a opponent down they will spend enough time submerged for you to land in the water than jump out and follow up with another down air.

Ruddercamping allows a player a win via time out if the opponent does not know how to fight it. And a 1 kill = win advantage if they do know how to fight it and are using a character in groups B or C.

sunshade said:

Why groups C and D are equally ineffective when combating ruddercamping.

When comparing the effectiveness of groups 3 and 4, I like to use a hypothetical scenario between Ganondorf and Fox which illustrates how simply pushing the opponent results in very little positive results.

The stage is set: Ganondorf is in the lead by one stock with 193% damage. He is facing fox coming back with 50% damage, because fox got nailed by a bomb while not looking (the damage source makes no difference really). Ganondorf, knowing full well he cannot win this encounter, runs into the water and uses his down-B to stay below the rudder. Fox thinks he has Ganondorf in checkmate and runs into the water as well and uses his down-B to move downwards into the water.

Situation 1

Now that he is moving down, Fox can move to his left to push Ganondorf into the death zone on the ship and kill Ganondorf. Ganondorf, however, knows this and decides to move to the right to avoid this. Ganondorf passes fox and floats to the surface while Fox is still below him. Fox is still behind and needs to kill Ganondorf, so he floats back up as well but he is now in danger because leaving the water you are highly susceptible to a Ganondorf down air. Fox now has two choices: float up get nailed in the face by Ganondorfs boot and die a painful death, or stay below the rudder and wait as Ganondorf wins by default.

Situation 2

Now that he is moving down, Fox can move to his left to push Ganondorf into the death zone on the ship and kill Ganondorf. Ganondorf, however, knows this and decides to move to the right to avoid this. Ganondorf meets Fox and continues to swim to the right while Fox swims left, and a stalemate occurs. Ganondorf suddenly realizes that if he stops swimming to the right he will die and at the same time Fox realizes that if he stops swimming left then Ganondorf will do what we just read in Situation 1. Both Ganondorf and Fox, in what can only be described as a battle of power and skill, violently swim right and left respectively! This continues until one gives up and dies or the time runs out and Ganondorf wins by default.

Click to expand...

Rudder-camping is just plain silly, can't they just ban the tech not the stage?

Rudderstalling is easier said than done. If you mess up, you instantly lose a stock. If you do manage to do it, the boat will wiggle, and you will be set free.

Javon89 said:

Rudder-camping is just plain silly, can't they just ban the tech not the stage?

Click to expand...

I agree that ruddercamping is silly however because ruddercamping is not stalling the recommended ruleset does not prohibit the use of it. Playing while using a cheep, unfair, silly, "gay", tactic is not illegal just generally looked down upon. Many comments in this thread have been made about the legality of ruddercamping and I will say that I do not find it to be stalling, I however do find it to be degenerate and unwelcome in competitive brawl.

TWiNKatGC said:

Rudderstalling is easier said than done. If you mess up, you instantly lose a stock. If you do manage to do it, the boat will wiggle, and you will be set free.

Click to expand...

This is also correct and allows me to point out that ruddercamping takes a bit of time and practice to be able to preform with confidence. ruddercamping does not take a gigantic amount of time to learn by any means, but this is not something that you could attempt for the first time in a tournament with hopes of success.

Dude. Seriously.

What part of "Rudder Camping is Banned" don't you understand? I had thought you had understood when you stopped post in this topic. It doesn't matter if you like it or not or if you believe it should be or not: Rudder Camping is stalling and is automatically a banned tactic. It's not going to change to a legal tactic so the stage can be banned.

Give it a break already, and actually argue about something worth arguing about. A mod hinted to as much that it is indeed stalling and is banned for crying out loud, and they never do that around here. It's getting to a point that it's no longer a debate: it's just you being stubborn. Honestly, this topic should be locked. Your concerns have been answered multiple times now.

Move onto something actually debatable.

Nidtendofreak said:

Dude. Seriously.

What part of "Rudder Camping is Banned" don't you understand? I had thought you had understood when you stopped post in this topic. It doesn't matter if you like it or not or if you believe it should be or not: Rudder Camping is stalling and is automatically a banned tactic. It's not going to change to a legal tactic so the stage can be banned.

Give it a break already, and actually argue about something with arguing about. A mod hinted to as much that it is indeed stalling and is banned for crying out loud, and they never do that around here. It's getting to a point that it's no longer a debate: it's just you being stubborn. Honestly, this topic should be locked. Your concerns have been answered multiple times now.

Move onto something actually debatable.

Click to expand...

This thread has had a lot of positive discussion on the topic of ruddercamping, if it is classified as stalling, and as a result if it is banned. I personally feel that because ruddercamping is capable of being combated by all but eight characters of the cast it is not making the game unplayable. However I think because it is such a powerful tactic it causes the battle to become a one stock = one win situation which is clearly degenerate.

If you disagree with me than please prove me wrong. I edited my example about battlefield because it was wrong. I hope that shows that I am willing to view the opinions of others as valid despite my current or original opinion.

mic_128 said:

What Nintendofreak said. It's both camping and stalling. It's exactly the same as if you were camping the guns in Corneria, only worse. The only TO's that wouldn't ban it either are stupid, or use the technique themselves.

Click to expand...

The recommended ruleset only bans two types of actions done by the player during the match. 1. Metaknights infinite cape Glitch and 2. Stalling.

according to the SBR recommended rule set which I assume you follow.
Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable

For ruddercamping to be stalling than it must result in any and all conflict coming to stop. Ruddercamping is defeatable by all but 8 characters and those who cannot stop it can simply wait until the stage transforms. Among those who can stop ruddercamping all of group 1 can stop it without any fear of being punished making ruddercamping pointless to use. For groups 2/3 when someone is ruddercamping you are able to approach and attempt to stop it however it will not end well because ruddercamping is such an overcentralizing tactic.

In terms of tournament officials banning ruddercampingI have to say I do not care. Tournament officials place limits on Ice climbers chain grabs, they ban King Dedede's standing infinites, and ban stages not placed in the banned or counter/banned list. Tournament officials will do as they please regardless of it being fair, balanced, or according to what the SBR says. I am making an argument to the Smash community that follows the SBR ruleset and saying that if we follow our own rules than banning Pirate Ship would be a logical choice.

Sonic's stalling underneath the stage is combated by some characters. It's still banned.

Technically speaking, Circling camping wouldn't work half of the time at best. One character would be overall faster then the other. If the slower one tried to Circle Camp, he or she wouldn't be able to pull it off. Or if there was a fast character circle camping, and the slower one had a good projectile to get the occasional pop-shot off with. It's still banned.

Rudder Stalling is banned dude. Just let it go already. Really, I don't understand what's left to talk about. If you're trying to say it shouldn't be banned, but the stage should be, I don't see any logic in that at all. If you're talking hypothetically speaking, it's rather pointless.

Nidtendofreak said:

Sonic's stalling underneath the stage is combated by some characters. It's still banned.

Technically speaking, Circling camping wouldn't work half of the time at best. One character would be overall faster then the other. If the slower one tried to Circle Camp, he or she wouldn't be able to pull it off. Or if there was a fast character circle camping, and the slower one had a good projectile to get the occasional pop-shot off with. It's still banned.

Rudder Stalling is banned dude. Just let it go already. Really, I don't understand what's left to talk about. If you're trying to say it shouldn't be banned, but the stage should be, I don't see any logic in that at all. If you're talking hypothetically speaking, it's rather pointless.

Click to expand...

Hyrule temple is banned because of circle stall, but we choose to ban the stage instead of the tactic. The reason we don't simply ban the tactic however is because at any one point during circle stalling it can be legitimately claimed to be heading towards and a more advantaged location.

Ruddercamping has the same effect where it is not stalling, but simply using a stock advantage to force an approach (excluding those eight characters) but is so powerful a strategy that it is grounds to ban the stage.

mic_128 said:

Just reread this from the OP. Are you an idiot? "Ha! I'm in this tiny spot that you don't know how to get to! If you don't get me, you lose!"

You have convinced me that you don't know what you're talking about.

Click to expand...

... Ouch... lol

Pirate ship should be banned.

...but for reasons separate from the whole rudder camping issue. Rudder camping should be banned as stalling, but frankly this doesnt address the core issues with this stage.

The matchups on this stage are so skewed that it's crazy not to ban it.