DSO Biweekly 10 ~Philly, PA~ MK Banned Brawl & Brawl+

KayLo! said:

Clai, I'm so sorry for camping you that hard..... Ganon too strong for Pika up close.

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I didn't mind the camping at all, after all, it's just another challenge that I have to beat (although losing after fighting that much camping takes a lot out of you).

I was really bothered by what you said about how you thought people would think less of you if you lost to a Ganon regardless of who the Ganon was. It shouldn't matter what kind of a character you're put up against; I know what a trash character Ganondorf is, but I put in a ****ton of work into making my Ganon respectable because I love Ganon that much. Especially when you're camping like that, I have to do so much more work to win than you do that if I win without you doing something drastically stupid to fix the results, then a loss should be nothing to be disappointed about.

Next time, let Chibo record it so everyone can watch the seven minute campfests that result to ensure that you don't lose to a Ganon, no matter how manly I play .

@Chibo- Who holds the matches saved on the recording device that was on the small TV?

i think that was bnzaaa's tv, but im not sure whose wii. maybe bnzaaas wii?

Actually Clai, it's true. People do think less of you for losing to Ganon regardless of who it is. Atomsk is an amazing player, and when he beat Wooj with Ganon, his whole reputation was shot for months.

Also, this may not be your personal attitude, but a LOT of low tier mains have the mentality that it's okay for them to lose, because if they do, it's expected, and when they win, they get to be like, "INYOFACE, I used a low tier character." and DOUBLY so if that character is Ganon or Falcon, who are the joke characters of this community. You should expect people to carry that mentality regardless of whom you face. If I were to lose to you, obviously, any time I had something to say, SOMEONE would be a prick and be like, "But you lost to Ganon."

It's the truth of the world. It's a burdan but also it can help get into your opponent's head. If you're going to play a joke character in tourney, you should expect this.

Pierce7d said:

Actually Clai, it's true. People do think less of you for losing to Ganon regardless of who it is. Atomsk is an amazing player, and when he beat Wooj with Ganon, his whole reputation was shot for months.

Also, this may not be your personal attitude, but a LOT of low tier mains have the mentality that it's okay for them to lose, because if they do, it's expected, and when they win, they get to be like, "INYOFACE, I used a low tier character." and DOUBLY so if that character is Ganon or Falcon, who are the joke characters of this community. You should expect people to carry that mentality regardless of whom you face. If I were to lose to you, obviously, any time I had something to say, SOMEONE would be a prick and be like, "But you lost to Ganon."

It's the truth of the world. It's a burdan but also it can help get into your opponent's head. If you're going to play a joke character in tourney, you should expect this.

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I hate this community. I really, really do. IMHO, the people who do use low tier mains for the reasons you state are the ones that suck a lot and end up using a high-tier character instead. Why would someone go through the effort to use a character that sucks when all they get in return is an "INYOFACE" if they win (and that's a big if)? I joke around all the time about how bad Ganondorf is, but when it comes to playing tournament matches, I just focus on beating the opponent regardless of who they're using.

I've never expected that mentality from people because I thought people respected the amount of work people put into their characters. I'm really shocked that people could think this way. I never 'expect' to lose when I play someone like Ganon, that's a stupid crutch and just asking for me to play terribly. I enter every tournament match expecting to win, and if I lose, no johns, I've got to get better at this game. It's the only way that I can discipline myself to reach a high level of play.

Clai said:

I hate this community. I really, really do. IMHO, the people who do use low tier mains for the reasons you state are the ones that suck a lot and end up using a high-tier character instead. Why would someone go through the effort to use a character that sucks when all they get in return is an "INYOFACE" if they win (and that's a big if)? I joke around all the time about how bad Ganondorf is, but when it comes to playing tournament matches, I just focus on beating the opponent regardless of who they're using.

I've never expected that mentality from people because I thought people respected the amount of work people put into their characters. I'm really shocked that people could think this way. I never 'expect' to lose when I play someone like Ganon, that's a stupid crutch and just asking for me to play terribly. I enter every tournament match expecting to win, and if I lose, no johns, I've got to get better at this game. It's the only way that I can discipline myself to reach a high level of play.

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That's not really a reason to hate this community, it's pretty much true in any senerio. For instance, if two people were playing SF on a competative level, and one player chose Dan, the second player is expected to win, and winning with Dan earns the first player some bragging right. The fact of the matter is that, regardless of your personal convictions of victory, you enter the fight by handicapping yourself with a completely horrible character that no one who plays this game competatively has any real business losing to. Now, no offense to KayLo meant at all, but she's not a top player, and therefore shouldn't really need to deal with suffering the pressure of the character she's facing.

Still, do you really mean to sit there and tell me that if you were to beat me in tourney with Ganon, you wouldn't expect it to be hype. If you beat me with Ganon, and then people didn't make a big deal out of it, I dare say you'd be a little ticked off.

I respect all the work you put into your character, ESPECIALLY because it's Ganon. Still, at the end of the day, M2k would lose to me, even if he mained Ganon, simply because Ganon is not viable at the higher levels of play. You might not expect to lose, but I surely expect to win. Also, it's completely fair for a third party to expect me to win. Now, is it fair that I have to suffer the ridicule if I lose, maybe not. But that's in all aspects of competition when you lose after having an advantage. Choosing Ganon is giving your opponent an advantage, no matter how hard you try, because Ganon is simply that bad of a character. It DOES make your victories more of an accomplishment, and it does make your opponent's losses more of a defeat.

Pierce7d said:

For instance, if two people were playing SF on a competative level, and one player chose Dan, the second player is expected to win, and winning with Dan earns the first player some bragging right.

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Dan is no joke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6gLrUWDJHE

Pierce7d said:

That's not really a reason to hate this community, it's pretty much true in any senerio. For instance, if two people were playing SF on a competative level, and one player chose Dan, the second player is expected to win, and winning with Dan earns the first player some bragging right. The fact of the matter is that, regardless of your personal convictions of victory, you enter the fight by handicapping yourself with a completely horrible character that no one who plays this game competatively has any real business losing to. Now, no offense to KayLo meant at all, but she's not a top player, and therefore shouldn't really need to deal with suffering the pressure of the character she's facing.

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The bolded part is what I hate about people. I understand the disparity between good characters, bad characters and Ganon, but to say that a decent player has no business losing to a character just because that character is terrible is a complete insult to whoever is using that bad character because if the other person loses, everyone just assumes that player majorly screwed up instead of assuming that whoever was using the terrible character played perfectly. I may be giving myself a handicap by maining Ganondorf, but it's a handicap well worth climbing over, because face it, it's GANON!

Still, do you really mean to sit there and tell me that if you were to beat me in tourney with Ganon, you wouldn't expect it to be hype. If you beat me with Ganon, and then people didn't make a big deal out of it, I dare say you'd be a little ticked off.

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I make enough of a deal by myself if I win, not because I beat someone using a terrible character, but because I probably won with some rediculously manly way because of how rediculously manly Ganondorf is.

I respect all the work you put into your character, ESPECIALLY because it's Ganon. Still, at the end of the day, M2k would lose to me, even if he mained Ganon, simply because Ganon is not viable at the higher levels of play. You might not expect to lose, but I surely expect to win. Also, it's completely fair for a third party to expect me to win. Now, is it fair that I have to suffer the ridicule if I lose, maybe not. But that's in all aspects of competition when you lose after having an advantage. Choosing Ganon is giving your opponent an advantage, no matter how hard you try, because Ganon is simply that bad of a character. It DOES make your victories more of an accomplishment, and it does make your opponent's losses more of a defeat.

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It's easy to make that case for M2K because M2K knows nothing about Ganon. Now if I were M2K-skilled while knowing all that I do about Ganondorf, I would expect expectations to change. It's also easy for other people to expect you to win before you play me, but as they say, "That's why they play the game!"

I think that a defeat in your case would only be more of a defeat if you play worse than you expected to. If you play to your expectations and still lose because I played at a higher level, You could try to exploit Ganon's weaknesses as well as you can, but if I do a better job of covering those weaknesses up, can you really blame yourself for that? You don't start with an advantage, I don't start with a stock less because my character sucks, it just makes getting the advantage easier for you. Easy =/= guaranteed.

Clai said:

A whole bunch of stuff with a good but false mindset behind it.

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At higher levels of play, your character lacks the tools and options to compete. Most of your MUs are 70-30 or worse in your opponent's favor. I could probably beat your Ganon with almost every character in the game, not because you are not an amazing player, but because I understand how Ganon works, and I understand that he is in no way a threatening character. I can always pick safe options against him, and win sheerly on mathematics, and you would have less than a 5% chance of winning, and that's only if you are stupidly amazing and able to consistently powershield regular attacks.

I understand that this might not come easy to hear, but the truth of the matter is, Ganon is not a viable character. His ceiling for potential is very low. If I lose to Ganon, it's not because you played well, it's because you played well and I played poorly. There's no such thing as me playing to my own expectations and still losing. There IS NO LEVEL OF PLAY that has Ganon winning in such a situation, unless you were able to consistently power-shield almost every attack. The level of play you would need to obtain does not exist. You have created a unreachable goal in your mind.

If you'd take the time to check my last post, you'll note I said, "If m2k MAINED Ganon . . ." implying that if a player of his skill were to have full, in depth knowledge of his character and the game, with mastery of Ganon. Even with complete mastery of Ganon, you still could not beat top players with him, using viable characters that shut him out.

There are differences between handicaps worth climbing over, and handicaps that you can climb over. Ganon is NOT a handicap you can climb over. If your opponent knows the MU, it's hopeless. I play Ganon myself, and I love to troll noobs by two stocking them with my Ganondorf, no doubt, but the character has no business in tournament. To say a decent player has no business losing to Ganondorf isn't an insult, it is fact, based on sound, mathematical evidence and proof.

If you were m2k skilled, and knew everything you did and more about Ganon, I would still have absolutely no fear of you, because I understand how your character works, and you would be hard pressed to take a stock off me even with that much skill.

I hate to say this, because it sounds so mean to say, but it's simply the truth, and you have to face it if you want to continue playing this game at a competative level. You have to understand that people don't have screwed up mentalities about Ganon. They have realistic opinions of Ganon. Your love for the character has blinded you to his overwhelming shortcomings. The simple fact is, while I'm sure you know how bad Ganon is, he's even worse than you think he is.

I would rather fight a MK with Marth and two stocks, than I would fighting a skilled player that knows the Ganon MU with Ganon and me having 4 stocks.

Dammit Pierce let the man have his joy and let him play Ganon w/o rubbing in how much he suxxx =x lol

ganon's better than metaknight he has triforce of power mk is just a tiny bat

lol jason GTFO xD

MK is a Tiny bat with a sword that he's allowed to use.

Ganon has a sword as a taunt. FAIL

Pierce7d said:

At higher levels of play, your character lacks the tools and options to compete. Most of your MUs are 70-30 or worse in your opponent's favor. I could probably beat your Ganon with almost every character in the game, not because you are not an amazing player, but because I understand how Ganon works, and I understand that he is in no way a threatening character. I can always pick safe options against him, and win sheerly on mathematics, and you would have less than a 5% chance of winning, and that's only if you are stupidly amazing and able to consistently powershield regular attacks.

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I'm not saying this because of character bias, I'm saying this because I think it's the truth: our matchup ratios are horribly skewed against Ganon. I can't even remember the last time we had a complete discussion about facing another character with Ganon- the majority of discussions goes, "LOL Ganon's frame data sucks, he can't do anything, 70-30 in X character's favor" and then we move on to another character and repeat again. People just assume Ganondof can't do anything without actually analyzing it to see if their claims are true, and I bet you that only a small fraction of people who talk matchups has actually played a Ganon worth talking about that would legitimize their discussions.

Now if people actually spent the time to go over what Ganondorf can do and it ends up that he still has 30-70's against the majority of the cast, that's fine and all, but I feel that Ganondorf's metagame is sorely lacking and I'm going to do my best to fix it- it's one of the reasons why I still continue to use him. I will make him a threat by shear manliness alone, and if I have to overhaul Ganondorf's metagame to do it, so be it. I still have a lot of things to improve on as a player before I can become a serious challenge to people at high levels of play, and any loss I take is going to be on myself, not on Ganondorf.

But winning on mathematics alone? I'm sorry, but that is a bunch of bull. I have the spirit of Gurren Lagann inside of me- the impossible is merely laughable and common sense is just another thing to be dismantled. You can spout as many reasons as you want as to how it is mathematically impossible for Ganon to win in high levels of play, but if I don't at least attempt to break down every bit of those reasons and win despite the odds, then I haven't done enough as a Ganon main.

I understand that this might not come easy to hear, but the truth of the matter is, Ganon is not a viable character. His ceiling for potential is very low. If I lose to Ganon, it's not because you played well, it's because you played well and I played poorly. There's no such thing as me playing to my own expectations and still losing. There IS NO LEVEL OF PLAY that has Ganon winning in such a situation, unless you were able to consistently power-shield almost every attack. The level of play you would need to obtain does not exist. You have created a unreachable goal in your mind.

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Keep in mind that through all the optimistic talk that I do, I know that Ganondorf is not a viable character at all. I've accepted Ganondorf's weaknesses a long time ago- it's the only way for me to work around and beat those weaknesses. If I need to obtain a level of play that is rediculous and borderline insanity in order to win against players who know what they're doing, then I'm willing to undertake such an exposition. You don't know what goals are unreachable until someone's tried to reach them, and I've got the balls to try.

If you'd take the time to check my last post, you'll note I said, "If m2k MAINED Ganon . . ." implying that if a player of his skill were to have full, in depth knowledge of his character and the game, with mastery of Ganon. Even with complete mastery of Ganon, you still could not beat top players with him, using viable characters that shut him out.

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Checking your post, it seems that I missed that word. Oh well, I don't what I can do with a masterful skill level until I actually obtain that level and fully mastered my character, and I'm not going to obtain that by giving up on Ganondorf. I'll see what happens at the top levels of play once I become a top-level player (and I mean overall, not just with Ganon)

There are differences between handicaps worth climbing over, and handicaps that you can climb over. Ganon is NOT a handicap you can climb over. If your opponent knows the MU, it's hopeless. I play Ganon myself, and I love to troll noobs by two stocking them with my Ganondorf, no doubt, but the character has no business in tournament. To say a decent player has no business losing to Ganondorf isn't an insult, it is fact, based on sound, mathematical evidence and proof.

If you were m2k skilled, and knew everything you did and more about Ganon, I would still have absolutely no fear of you, because I understand how your character works, and you would be hard pressed to take a stock off me even with that much skill.

I hate to say this, because it sounds so mean to say, but it's simply the truth, and you have to face it if you want to continue playing this game at a competative level. You have to understand that people don't have screwed up mentalities about Ganon. They have realistic opinions of Ganon. Your love for the character has blinded you to his overwhelming shortcomings. The simple fact is, while I'm sure you know how bad Ganon is, he's even worse than you think he is.

I would rather fight a MK with Marth and two stocks, than I would fighting a skilled player that knows the Ganon MU with Ganon and me having 4 stocks.

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Tsk tsk, so much negativity. You obviously know at this point that I'm stubborn and adamant about using Ganon and nothing people say is going to change that. You can rip on me all you want for not being realistic, but know that I can't afford to be realistic while maining Ganondorf. I have to operate on insanity to try and beat all of Ganon's shortcomings (and I know those aren't few in number. Trust me on that one). The truth is just something me and my giant manly fist have to shatter. I can continue playing Smash competitively and never win another tournament set with Ganon again, but I'll keep on going because playing Ganon in tournament is way too much fun to give up, and that I owe it to myself to break through the impossible and attain the unattainable dream,

TL;DR: I'm a scrub, and I may be insane, but breakthroughs in the smash metagame could only be possible due to the insane, and I truly, truly believe that I can be that insane person that revolutionizes Ganon despite what everyone says about him.

Well, I said what I had to say on that matter. Take it as you will. As long as you're having fun, that's what's important.