"common knowledge" that a lot of people don't know

ArcNatural · Dec 26, 2009

TresChikon said:
Why does everyone insist in believing this? Didn't that gif *points up* prove anything?

Magus proved it doesn't help when there are no outside influences.

What Silent Wolf believes is, like a walljump where you can better control your DI by doing an aerial out of the walljump, if you are hit out (say Samus charge shot) jumping and doing an aerial helps cancel out the initial momentum from the hit.

This should be fairly easy to test for someone with AR.

Lovage · Dec 26, 2009

i'm netural on the topic

when i first started doing it (uair/dair with fox) i really felt that it helped

but the more and more i played the more i thought it was kind of a placebo, not actually doing anything, it's just that you're paying attention more to your recovery so it feels like you go farther.

i wouldn't be surprised if we found out it actually worked (especially fox's dair)

Eggz · Dec 26, 2009

momentum cancelling exists in brawl, i dont see why it would be an impossibility so easily dismissed here.

Nø Ca$h · Dec 26, 2009

docs dthrow doesnt move gaw if u dont have port priority

Cosmo! · Dec 26, 2009

Eggz said:
momentum cancelling exists in brawl, i dont see why it would be an impossibility so easily dismissed here.

didnt magus test this shiet 1000 times, cmon bro step it up!!!!!

ETWIST51294 · Dec 26, 2009

Bowsers down throw does no damage to Jigglypuff.

Magus420 · Dec 26, 2009

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2987122&postcount=20

There used to be a .gif in that post, but imageshack deleted it since then.

I already tested it with momentum for Doc's DJ->f-air recovery. It seriously does not do anything at all unless the DJ has special properties. Jiggs/Kirby's jumps slow them down horizontally while poofed up, and interrupting with an aerial allows you to get normal air speed during them. Mewtwo's changes momentum at different parts of the animation and you interrupt it in the later part before it slows down to get an extra boost.

Lovage · Dec 26, 2009

fox's up throw does less damage if you DI it (less lasers hit you)

magus could you flesh this out a little bit more? i'd like to see it proven under other recovery conditions (getting hit by different moves)

Magus420 · Dec 26, 2009

Myth busted... again.

I'm not wasting more time on this proving every last possible scenario false. People are welcome to keep doing it anyway if they want.

Lovage · Dec 26, 2009

aight...legit

thanks for your help magus

i guess this clears it up

Fortress | Sveet · Dec 26, 2009

momentum canceling does exist in melee.

you have to leave hitstun during the important part of your knockback and do a move to slow you down. shine and marth's sideb come to mind.

i think the easiest way is to cc tech something strong near the edge. you'll tech and slide off the stage, and if you don't momentum cancel you'll die.

Magus420 · Dec 26, 2009

Sveet said:
momentum canceling does exist in melee.

you have to leave hitstun during the important part of your knockback and do a move to slow you down. shine and marth's sideb come to mind.

i think the easiest way is to cc tech something strong near the edge. you'll tech and slide off the stage, and if you don't momentum cancel you'll die.

No. I've tested this exact thing over 2 years ago. The shine does nothing to your horizontal momentum.

Seriously.

DJing actually does help however if you're about to die off the side since you get instant movement away from the blastzone (for most characters).

The Irish Mafia · Dec 26, 2009

lol @ the charging falco's dsmash trick. Questor did it to me the first time we played, and Mogwai did it to HaleyM in tournament. So hilarious.

About Randall's pattern: Whenever you can't see Pachyderm (the dude walking around in the back of Yoshi's Story), Randall is out of the stage. Whenever pachyderm is visible, randall is in the stage.

The Irish Mafia · Dec 26, 2009

Magus420 said:
No. I've tested this exact thing over 2 years ago. The shine does nothing to your horizontal momentum.

Seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_CrTWvKpRQ

Mark 1:30?

god, am I really the ****** trying to argue with magus?

JPOBS · Dec 26, 2009

you can instantly buffer shield/sheild tillts while in the lag of other moves.

So for example if you dair as falco and missed, you can continue holding L and a direction in the l-cancel lag and the sheild will come up already tilted in the direction you're holding.

you can use c-stick to buffer rolls/spotdodges out of techs.

TresChikon · Dec 26, 2009

*points back one page to Magus's post*

Shine can actually worsen your recovery.

Shining at the very side blastlines would cause you to drift and kill you whereas DJing would instantaneously have an effect on your horizontal momentum and let you survive a few extra %.

In addition to that, shine can carry over your vertical momentum and cause you to drift upwards and die off the top earlier than had you not done anything at all.

Also, although you can drift upwards during a shine, you still drift away, negating any lift you have. So all it's good for is stalling

Lesson is:

Don't shine unless you're trying to stall your recovery.

-ACE- · Dec 26, 2009

Magus420 said:
No. I've tested this exact thing over 2 years ago. The shine does nothing to your horizontal momentum.

Seriously.

I'm surprised at this. I know for a fact that Magus is right about the dj giving you instantaneous momentum, causing you to live at times when it is very close as to whether or not you will die off the side, whereas the shine would kill you.

However, I still feel that if you aren't close to the blast zone, and you dj, you don't seem to get the full horizontal distance of your dj (due to the outward momentum from the hit). If you shine first however, it really does seem to slow down your horizontal momentum, and then when you jump you get the full horizontal distance of your jump. I'm not saying the shine kills your horizontal momentum instantaneously by any means, but it definitely has always seemed to me that it slows it down a bit. Before seeing this I could have sworn that shining before double jumping has saved my life countless times.... just sayin.

Magus420 · Dec 26, 2009

I've tested the shine "recovery" with different angles, ground tech slide offs, durations of doing the shine before jumping, etc, and also at different strengths and distances from the stage and blastzone. They are the same. You die on the same frame/same damage from a move off the side, and for less powerful ones where you aren't in danger of the side blastzone you end up in the same exact spot after your recovery. In cases where you're in danger of hitting the top blastzone it actually can get you killed and is worse.

Also, your shield doesn't actually come out angled when you are holding the direction beforehand.

TresChikon · Dec 26, 2009

-ACE- said:
you don't seem to get the full horizontal distance of your dj (due to the outward momentum from the hit).

I can understand that.

-ACE- said:
If you shine first however, it really does seem to slow down your horizontal momentum, and then when you jump you get the full horizontal distance of your jump. I'm not saying the shine kills your horizontal momentum instantaneously by any means, but it definitely has always seemed to me that it slows it down a bit.

I can see this as well.

However, any more distance you gain from delaying your DJ is simply negated by the fact that shine causes you to drift out further.

Cosmo! · Dec 26, 2009

Magus420 said:
I've tested the shine "recovery" with different angles, ground tech slide offs, durations of doing the shine before jumping, etc, and also at different strengths and distances from the stage and blastzone. They are the same. You die on the same frame/same damage from a move off the side, and for less powerful ones where you aren't in danger of the side blastzone you end up in the same exact spot after your recovery. In cases where you're in danger of hitting the top blastzone it actually can get you killed and is worse.

thank you. now maybe people will stop spouting this myth about shining helping recovery.

ETWIST51294 · Dec 26, 2009

Can someone explain to me why bowsers down throw can't hit Jiggs?

Lovage · Dec 26, 2009

that's interesting about shield angling, i didn't know that

for those of you who don't know why shield angling is good, watch mango play falcon/falco vs. spacies. when he gets shield pressured, he angles his shield up so that their nair hits his shield earlier, and he has more time to grab/jump and punish

Magus420 · Dec 26, 2009

It doesn't hit G&W either. In NTSC his d-throw animation speed is weight dependant, and the hitbox on the throw that does the full amount of damage is only out for a single frame. Their weight has the animation skip completely over when it hits so it doesn't even damage them. In PAL his d-throw is not weight dependant which fixes it.

TresChikon · Dec 26, 2009

Bowser's d-throw is affect by the weight of his victim.

The more they weigh, the longer the animation takes.

However, there is only one frame of the animation where the damage is inflicted.

Therefore, Jigglypuff's weight speeds Bowser's animation up and since you can't have a fraction of a frame, some frames are skipped. That damaging frame just happens to be one of those skipped frames.

Edit: Crap, ninja'd

Pi · Dec 26, 2009

Magus420 said:

Is that blue aura related to power shielding?

ETWIST51294 · Dec 26, 2009

Why does Docs down throw act so wierd when G&W gas port priority?

Magus420 · Dec 26, 2009

The inside white part is the PS area, which also shrinks in size with the rest of it when the shield's damaged. The entire area is the coverage of the shield in general.

Pi · Dec 26, 2009

O
I was under the impression that a power shield happened when the hitbox of an attack was inside the shield but not touching your hurtbox
is this not the case?

TresChikon · Dec 26, 2009

So when dealing with horizontal momentum at the blastlines, is there anything better than a DJ that would help you survive?

Ocho(*8*) · Dec 26, 2009

you can ragequit/ quit (without rage) by hitting l - r - a before pausing and then pressing start twice in a row.

I found it out myself! Unless someone else already knew it...

Tamoo · Dec 26, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECC7yWM6AEc&feature=related

Bet this guy did, quickest ragequit EVER! lol

Spife · Dec 26, 2009

uhhh

You can't bomb jump with Link (dunno about ylink) unless your up-b is full power or "fresh". I don't know how long/many moves have to be used/hit with before it becomes fresh again though.

Link can do a full jump nair and then dair with out having to double jump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLTuvTGdIGs

I can't think of any other useless Link info...Except that the sweetspot for hookshot is difference per stage.

Also, I glanced over a lot of the momentum canceling info, so sorry if this was already posted but what does up-b'ing do to your momentum?

TresChikon · Dec 26, 2009

It still carries over.

Magus420 said:
Regarding the boost you get by using shine at the end of hit stun, it gives you a vertical boost proportional to the amount of your original vertical knockback. It also carries over into your jump if you DJ. The thing is though, you also get it by DJing, up b-ing, forward b-ing, or airdodging anyway (may be different for other chars)

I'm not sure if it's character specific or not however.

Like when you see Fox charging his Up+b you can still see him drift.

wow, i didn't know that, i always thought dair was so slow it needed its own jump.

StealthyGunnar · Dec 26, 2009

Peach's float canceling doesn't remove all lag from aerials.

Tamoo · Dec 26, 2009

We do NOT play on lightning melee

Falco's dair is NOT a meteor on pal

Ken is NOT from japan

Quic · Dec 26, 2009

Tamoo said:
We do NOT play on lightning melee

Falco's dair is NOT a meteor on pal

Ken is NOT from japan

VBM does.

When Nintendo released PAL version they decided they didn´t like vertical KO power, as Fox´s Upsmash, Sheik´s Upsmash and Sheik´s Upair are all nerfed(two of them dramtically, and Sheiks upsmash just ever so slightly)
(I realised everybody knows this, but i needed an excuse for pointing that first thing out)

ETWIST51294 · Dec 26, 2009

Ganons Fair is also nerfed. NOW YOU'RE WRONG TAMOO lol

Seriously, is Foxes uair nerfed or not?

Tamoo · Dec 26, 2009

no its not >.>

rhan · Dec 26, 2009

Spife said:
You can't bomb jump with Link (dunno about ylink) unless your up-b is full power or "fresh". I don't know how long/many moves have to be used/hit with before it becomes fresh again though.

Only way YLink can bomb jump is when the fuse is shortened. So for us to bomb jump like Link we'd have to hold the bomb in our hand for about 2-3 seconds.

Edit: Better version of my post.

He can but it's not worth it.

Edit2: Fox's Uair is Nerf'd on the PAL version.

Silent Wolf · Dec 26, 2009

thanks for clearing that up magus

does anyone know why marth sometimes fails to do utilt and just flails his sword a bit and it has no hit box?

"common knowledge" that a lot of people don't know

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