Brawl+ Project Hub: OP updated 4/28 w/expansion pack and why it is necessary

[TSON] · Jan 23, 2010

I'd like to bring up a relatively subtle problem, but a problem nonetheless:

Dashgrabs are useless in comparison to crouch-canceled grabs, as CCGs cover more distance with less lag on most characters.

omegablackmage · Jan 23, 2010

yeah i don't think taking those things out would be a very good idea.

as most people have said, your taking a risk when using a hammer. Nine hammers can only really be landed when tech chasing from a dthrow, when your opponent di's the fthrow very poorly, or after landing a nair or uptilt at low percents. From a tech chase, you could land a smash, which is at least 15% im pretty sure. From a nair/utilt at low percents, you could do at least two more nairs and an up b with follow ups (at least 30%).

So when you do a hammer, you take the risk of getting hit for 12% (1), doing mediocre damage that doesn't combo (2,3,4,5,6,7,), getting a chance to do another hammer (8), or getting a ohko (9), AND you forego doing a 30% combo or a smash... your choice i guess, but its balanced either way.

-----

On charizard, i would approve of the extra jump, as long as it isn't a full jump (maybe 50-75% of the original). Im a bit torn on the issue honestly, i don't want to make such a drastic change but i really think it would take a bit of the wtf out of his recovery and make him more balanced in terms of the other flyers/jumpers

The Cape · Jan 23, 2010

TheSilenceOfNoOne said:
I'd like to bring up a relatively subtle problem, but a problem nonetheless:

Dashgrabs are useless in comparison to crouch-canceled grabs, as CCGs cover more distance with less lag on most characters.

Play moar boozer nub.

The dash grab thing is definetly something I looked at when I was making the GSH series. I considered making them overall have more range for their slower speed but threw out the idea. There are no characters in the game now that do not have at least two good grab options and dash grab is a few of those. This gives some diversity to the game for sure.

Revven · Jan 23, 2010

Thoughts on this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9375445&postcount=1 ?

It is kind of bad that we nerfed Kirby rather hard. I actually do think his Fsmash should kill earlier than it does now (maybe not as early as it could originally) since his Bair lost its disjointed part of it. He's not as good as he used to be with both of those nerfed, so buffing the one thing we nerfed (Fsmash) up to a certain point (not to the original amount) and leave Bair as is and I think Kirby would be fine then.

But that's what I think, Maestro linked to the thread (read the rest of it, Chu posts there too) so idk if we should change Kirby at all or not.

Edit: It is funny though that M2K is asking for Kirby buffs! LOL

Just pointing it out though, I know I don't weigh anything on the decisions here, I just thought I'd share my opinion on it a bit.

VietGeek · Jan 23, 2010

I'm wondering if anyone still knows the specific tweaks that went into the Death Boundary mod. I believe we sohuld revert some of those changes, which were done in belief that characters were being KO'd too soon, while nowadays you will see most characters die at similar to vBrawl %'s.

Not a lot of people understand that code to my understanding, so I suppose it wasn't exactly a high priority issue to begin with.

MK26 · Jan 23, 2010

i honestly have not the faintest idea how it works or why FD and BF are among the stages affected by it

GuruKid · Jan 23, 2010

Uhh... why was Kirby nerfed in the first place? He definitely kicked *** when I played a kirby main at a local fest a couple months ago (was probably RC1-era)... but not to the level of overpowered.

On Charyzardz: I just wanna bring back my main argument from my previous post...

GuruKid said:
I feel that, compared to other flyers (namely DDD), his power/gimp ability-to-recovery ratio is way off.

Thunderhorse+ said:
@Plum: I believe Charizard's glide speed has already been sped up significantly IIRC. Not to mention I though Charizard and Pikachu both had base 100 speed...or maybe that was Raichu...or maybe I'm nuts.

I would like to see Charizard with an extra jump, but at the same time I know it's not nessecary for him. Guru Kid describes the problem as such: Charizard can only afford to jump out offstage for a gimp once. After that, he has to high tail it back to the ledge with one jump and a fickle upB which is neither very flexible nor travels a very good distance. Couple that with a bad glide, and if he misses once, the gimp attempt was virtually worthless.

My counterpoint is while the other fliers have an easier time gimping and coming back onstage, Charizard's gimp options offer vastly more reward by virtue of his ****-tastic fair and dair, both of which are strong and fairly disjointed. If Charizard can land that one good hit, the opponent is not coming back. Ever (unless you're MK/D3/ROB)[/COLOR]. Couple this with Charizard's vastly superior killing options on the ground (usmash, rock smash, dthrow, dtilt, dsmash->****, tipped ftilt, and lol Fly for good measure) and it doesn't seem like Charizard needs much help in the way of taking a stock, gimping or otherwise.

The red highlighted part very well applies to nearly every other flyer in the game (not sure about Pit):

One good dair with MK, and it leads to another dair, which often = death.
One good bair with Jiggs, and it easily sets up for either another bair, nair, or fair.
One good bair or fair with kirby, and you're doneskied by another one of those moves... or dair.
One good fair with Rob, and more often than not you'll be hit with another one.
One good bair with Dedede... either you flat-out die off the side or you suffer another bair.

While it is often true that with a well-spaced fair can knock out most characters with one hit, the above characters have the same guarantee, since their edgeguarding moves of choice offer amazing, almost guaranteed followups. It just takes them 1 more move to kill. My main issue is that even if they miss their followup moves, they have a lot of leniency toward going for that edgeguard again, simply because their recoveries are just that good. Players can afford to be a bit reckless. Charizard has no such leniency, and because these characters all share a similar playstyle, that's really wonky.

So why play a character who has a high-risk edgeguard and a high-risk recovery, which nothing special to make up for it, when you can play another character who has equal or better attributes, including a safer egdeguard and recovery?

I'm fairly sure the extra jump will remedy this issue; I could be dead wrong though. I just wanna experiment with it first before I come to any real conclusion.

Granted, the extra jump definitely shouldn't equal his original jump; OBM's recommendation of 50-75% would be optimal I think.

As for my PT ideas:

@ Leaf: PT is indeed useful (sometimes) during a blind pick, but... why limit his usefulness to just that, when he can be given new aspects to play and thus become unique again? Devotion to a character with three distinct playstyles (which comes with 3x the work that needs to be put into regarding matchups) should be rewarded more than what is currently given.

leafgreen386 said:

If you do have a reason to use PT on your own CP, then we're looking at a potentially broken character here, since that would mean not only would PT have great matchup resistance, but it would mean he's also countering other characters more effectively than any of his individual parts, which are designed to be viable on their own.

Click to expand...

Not sure if I really understood this statement, but if I interpreted it correctly... my proposition would finally give Trainer a reason to be played in the whole set by balancing out his unique positives and negatives, so the Trainer pokemon wouldn't be stronger counterpicks. Enabling Trainer with things like optional switching/specific move buffs would definitely make him too good and thus superior to the individual counterparts as you stated, and so I didn't include those kinds of propositions.

I'm just crossing my fingers that these ideas are even possible...

Cia · Jan 23, 2010

VaNz said:
I don't think Charizard needs an extra jump anyway. Every character doesn't need to be off stage edge guarding someone in the magnefied zone. Peach is a character who can recover about as well as a multi-jumper, but it's not usually good for her to edge guard off stage. Charizard's strengths are spacing and building damage. Making him a Puff ball would be too much =/

BumpBumpBump

Why does charizard need to become a Puff? Peach and Pit function just fine without that attribute. While Charizard does have more jumps than the average character, he's better on the stage. Besides, he has a low angle Fair and a really prominent Spike. CHARIZARD AS A PUFF WOULD BE AWFUL FOR THIS GAME..

..

imo

Veril · Jan 23, 2010

TheSilenceOfNoOne said:
Dashgrabs are useless in comparison to crouch-canceled grabs, as CCGs cover more distance with less lag on most characters.

You can't crouch cancel out of an initial dash. Also not all characters have notably better standing grabs (looks at Bowser) frame wise. Grab changes are not a possibility at this point.

Falco400 said:
Just pointing it out though, I know I don't weigh anything on the decisions here, I just thought I'd share my opinion on it a bit.

Intelligent contributions can and do sway opinion, especially here. Everyone in the wbr (currently), even those not in the B+broom, is qualified to participate in these debates (if not cast a vote directly). I read EVERYTHING posted in here, at least a few times, and I'm still deciding on what the next batch of proposals will contain.

The Zard jump debate is hawt! "Gets popcorn"

Glick · Jan 25, 2010

VaNz said:
BumpBumpBump

Why does charizard need to become a Puff? Peach and Pit function just fine without that attribute. While Charizard does have more jumps than the average character, he's better on the stage. Besides, he has a low angle Fair and a really prominent Spike. CHARIZARD AS A PUFF WOULD BE AWFUL FOR THIS GAME..

..

imo

I don't think it'd really be charizard as puff.
Charizard is really good, but he certainly has a confusingly low amount of jumps. Not only does it not fit his character, he really can't go offstage and his up b is REALLY easy to gimp.

I don't think it'd be as OP as vanz describes. I think it would be fine, and not a big deal if we can pull it off glitch free. I'm all for it.

Glick · Jan 25, 2010

I'm double posting because it is a completely separate point and I don't want it to get overlooked like my other multi idea posts.

BRAWL+ NEEDS A PROMO VIDEO

Are we really going to let ourselves get overshadowed by project m?
I love shanus, i'm just saying.

We need a promo video. Not a combo video either. Just a short video that outlines the changes in the game.

Aside from the promo video, we should encourage all the crews/people to create B+ combo videos as we release gold version.

WE NEED AS MUCH HYPE AS POSSIBLE.

Insomniac can work on a combo video. I'm sure with some initiative we can pull it off.

Cia · Jan 25, 2010

Charizard only has a "confusingly low" amount of jumps because

a) you're comparing his number of jumps to that of a Puff
b) his jumps don't make a sound, so it's harder to keep count.

The same could be said for Pit. I really don't think an extra jump is the way to go. What I do think would be good for Charizard is an air mobility fix (like the one jigglypuff got) If Charizard can move faster horizontally, then that should give him a better off-stage game and more combo potential.

Also, we saw yesterday how over-powering Charizard's aerials can be for certain characters. an extra jump would make him completely dominant against several different recoveries in the game. It's a seemingly small change but I'm pretty sure it's too much of a buff.

Glick · Jan 25, 2010

VaNz said:
Charizard only has a "confusingly low" amount of jumps because

a) you're comparing his number of jumps to that of a Puff
b) his jumps don't make a sound, so it's harder to keep count.

Lol. B is hilarious. and I am not comparing him to puff. He has wings, and he has a glide.
But yeah, both mobility and an extra jump solve the same issue though.

It's safe to say though, that there is definitely something awkward about charizards air game?

MK26 · Jan 25, 2010

yeah, i dont think more jumps is the way to go...just tweaking the jumps he has should be good

ive always found that he's a bit slow in the max aerial velocity department...just letting him go farther and faster in air would work wonders

lord karn · Jan 25, 2010

I think the idea of increased air mobility would be much better than another jump.

The Cape · Jan 25, 2010

I actually gave him a slight increase more and increased the size of his second jumps. Not alot, but enough to give him some more control.

Isatis · Jan 25, 2010

Glick said:
I'm double posting because it is a completely separate point and I don't want it to get overlooked like my other multi idea posts.

BRAWL+ NEEDS A PROMO VIDEO

Are we really going to let ourselves get overshadowed by project m?
I love shanus, i'm just saying.

We need a promo video. Not a combo video either. Just a short video that outlines the changes in the game.

Aside from the promo video, we should encourage all the crews/people to create B+ combo videos as we release gold version.

WE NEED AS MUCH HYPE AS POSSIBLE.

Insomniac can work on a combo video. I'm sure with some initiative we can pull it off.

I remember a month ago Cape was saying that 5ive was working on a "inb4rape2" Brawl+ combo video, but I'm not sure how or where that went. But Glick is right

Cape? 5ive?

Cia · Jan 25, 2010

I might make a + combo video. I just don't know which character to make one for. Falcon's overused.. and Jiggs would be hilarious rests.. .. maybe Peach, or Diddy if I get enough footage.

Also, I'm probably going to switch over to Project M once it's finished. I have a weird feeling that I'm going to be good at it.

:colorful:

Thunderhorse+ · Jan 25, 2010

VaNz said:
BumpBumpBump

Why does charizard need to become a Puff? Peach and Pit function just fine without that attribute. While Charizard does have more jumps than the average character, he's better on the stage. Besides, he has a low angle Fair and a really prominent Spike. CHARIZARD AS A PUFF WOULD BE AWFUL FOR THIS GAME..

..

imo

While I don't think Zard with 1 more jump would be as overpowered as you're saying, I do agree with the bolded statement when it comes to Charizard's kill options on stage, which should make up for his average off-stage game compared to other multi-jumpers (even if his off-stage game comes with two completely dominating aerials). Characters like Puff, D3, and ROB have Barely a handful of kill moves onstage (in ROBs case, I can barely even name 2). Most every attack that Charizard has minus neutral B, jab, dash attack, utilt, uair, and nair will kill (that leaves us with roughly 14 attacks and throws that can kill at fairly reasonable percents, give or take a throw or two depending on what you consider to be decent killing percents). This increased potency for killing onstage serves as a balance for his decent (not even bad, just not great like other fliers) offstage game.

That being said, I am a Charizard player. Personally, I would love to see him with another jump, and I agree that his offstage game us a bit clunky in comparison with most other multi-jumpers. However on an objective level (not to say you aren't being objective either Guru), I feel Charizard doesn't need that kind of buff, and is already pretty effective as is. If we were to try something to aid his off-stage game, I would like to see how increased aerial mobility plays out. Even then I'm not completely sure he needs it.

I do love your other PT ideas though Guru (though maybe a 1 or 2 percent increase to their attack is in order as well as the defense boost. There are attack IVs too

). An "EV" boost along with returning stamina would be a great way to give huge strategic value to PT.

As an aside, I MAY join you in Project M Vanz. I've always felt Brawl+ should be faster and more technical like Project M. It really depends on how much of Falco's Brawl moveset is retained (I'll take Brawl Falco's birdslaps > silly Melee Falco's happy feet any day).

MK26 · Jan 25, 2010

what about...allowing him to up-b straight up? that's always pissed me off.

and vanz, do a character thats been out of the limelight...like lucas, or ike, samus, snake, tl, pit, chari/ivy
i's like to see something like that

The Cape · Jan 25, 2010

Something I keep mentioning and we keep forgetting about:

Sonic second jab more range. It has less range than the first and tends to make the combo fail if the first is spaced well. That doesnt seem to be something good and we can always just extend the hitbox out a unit or two to fix the issue.

GuruKid · Jan 25, 2010

I'll be down for either an extra jump or increased mobility (which I admit I completely forgot about).

Thunderhorse+ said:
I do love your other PT ideas though Guru (though maybe a 1 or 2 percent increase to their attack is in order as well as the defense boost. There are attack IVs too ). An "EV" boost along with returning stamina would be a great way to give huge strategic value to PT.

That's another good idea, though I feel that (like the increased defense aspect) should only be implemented if knockback can remain the same... which I cross my fingers is possible!

5ive · Jan 25, 2010

Yeah, I'm making one. I've been spending the last 3 months looking through matches to find combos.

I've looked through about 600, but I plan on looking through the rest of them to make sure I have no fillers. Expect ****.

lord karn · Jan 25, 2010

The thing that has always felt weird about Charizard's off stage game to me is that, due to the restrictive nature of his upb, there are certain areas where he ***** (due to his **** aerials) and certain areas where he doesn't threaten at all. Allowing charizard to threaten those areas would both make him better and make him feel more natural. Giving him more options with his upb (or just making it go straight) would increase the spaces that he threatens somewhat, but perhaps not quite as much as giving him another jump. Both would make him feel more natural, imo.

So that brings it down to, if Charizard needs buffs, then choose the jump. If charizard doesn't need much of a buff, then make his upb better.

Veril · Jan 25, 2010

The Cape said:
Something I keep mentioning and we keep forgetting about:

Sonic second jab more range. It has less range than the first and tends to make the combo fail if the first is spaced well. That doesnt seem to be something good and we can always just extend the hitbox out a unit or two to fix the issue.

that is in the OP... silly boy

Cia · Jan 26, 2010

MK26 said:
what about...allowing him to up-b straight up? that's always pissed me off.

and vanz, do a character thats been out of the limelight...like lucas, or ike, samus, snake, tl, pit, chari/ivy
i's like to see something like that

I kinda like that Idea.. I think his recovery would make a bit more sense this way, but I'd like to see what Guru thinks.

as for a combo video.. maybe charizard. He has some pretty DUMB combos. Uthrow > UpB Kills Ike + Falcon somewhere around 120% D:

Yeroc · Jan 26, 2010

So today I was messing around with lots of different things and I noticed that the ledgehang framespeed wasn't working anymore. No telling why, but I thought I'd investigate a global PSA fix.

Lucky for us, that action has a frame modifier programmed into it. So I helped myself to using the same fix as before, but applied globally. So I made this small code, and combed the framespeed data for the now-useless character ones. I'm posting them here to help everybody sync up. Anybody know if there have been any framespeed changes in the past 2 weeks?

The codes:

Code:

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Ledgehang Duration [Yeroc]
06FB656C 00000008
00000001 0003A980

GuruKid · Jan 26, 2010

Enabling fly to go straight up would certainly be helpful. It'll hardly solves Charizard's air control/recovery issue by itself, but would make a nice supplement.

VaNz said:
as for a combo video.. maybe charizard. He has some pretty DUMB combos. Uthrow > UpB Kills Ike + Falcon somewhere around 120% D:

You don't even use Charizard, mengs. Leave that to the real pokemaster.

Insomniac (or just NYB+ players in general) will most likely make a combo video. Silven loves making those; I'll ask him about it.

Veril · Jan 26, 2010

GuruKid said:
Enabling fly to go straight up would certainly be helpful. It'll hardly solves Charizard's air control/recovery issue by itself, but would make a nice supplement.

Another option to consider... As to the PT specific changes like fatigue, etc, those are way too major to add in imo. Interesting ideas, but also nebulous and extremely experimental.

GuruKid said:
Insomniac (or just NYB+ players in general) will most likely make a combo video. Silven loves making those; I'll ask him about it.

O.o

Yeroc said:
So today I was messing around with lots of different things and I noticed that the ledgehang framespeed wasn't working anymore. No telling why, but I thought I'd investigate a global PSA fix.

<3

Cia · Jan 27, 2010

GuruKid said:
You don't even use Charizard, mengs. Leave that to the real pokemaster.

I use EVERYONE :demon:

Glick · Jan 27, 2010

VaNz said:
I use EVERYONE

Not well!
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

jklol

Back on topic.
Good idea to talk about, but WAYYY to experimental.
I'd like to hear more about pokemon trainer buffs.

What's in store for him?

Isatis · Jan 27, 2010

Silven's legit at making hype/combo videos...just look at APEX 2010's Brawl trailer.

Veril: There will be two major tournies going on Valentines Day weekend, both of which will have Brawl+ as an event. Not sure what you want to do (with the set being released around that date last time we spoke), but I thought it'd be good to be aware of it for any changes/feedback that come through after the tournament itself.

GHNeko · Jan 27, 2010

Also, I take it that this thread is only talking about character changes?

Or are we factoring Stages as well? Because there are a few stages worth adding in by now.

MK26 · Jan 27, 2010

GHNeko said:
Also, I take it that this thread is only talking about character changes?

Or are we factoring Stages as well? Because there are a few stages worth adding in by now.

<3 neko

ive got stage dlc1 ready, ftr

GuruKid · Jan 27, 2010

Veril said:
Another option to consider... As to the PT specific changes like fatigue, etc, those are way too major to add in imo. Interesting ideas, but also nebulous and extremely experimental.

I'm aware of the overall attitude here regarding severe changes this late into development, and normally I'd agree, but PT I think should be one of those exceptions. Ever since the "individual pokemon" code was put into plus, PT lost his usefulness and thus viability; keeping him as-is will just guarantee that no one will use him (why give yourself more work to do in learning 3 playstyles and 3x matchups for 1 character when there aren't any special bonuses or rewards you reap from doing so?)

I guarantee that PT will get zero substantial tournament rep if he remains the same.

And as far as vagueness... let me be more specific about what would be done:

1) Heal-on-switch: the switched-in pokemon, during its Pokeball Release animation, would heal 10 - 15%.

2) Each trainer pokemon would suffer 1 - 2% less damage from attacks but suffer the same knockback.

3) Each trainer pokemon would inflict 1 - 2% more damage on its attacks but inflict the same knockback.

4) Stamina: a 2 or 3-minute timer that removes 1 second from the clock whenever an attack is initiated (like in vbrawl). When the timer reaches 0, the pokemon becomes fatigued, doing substantially less knockback on attacks.

- if fatigue can be tweaked, we could try with a harsher fatigue penalty to compensate for the above bonuses (like adding a damage penalty as well).

I gave only percentage ranges because the exact percentage would need to be tested extensively to ensure that the buffs wouldn't be too much or too little.

EDIT: the exact stamina timer amount should be tested too.

shanus · Jan 27, 2010

I personally feel like installing those benefits to trainer would be pretty over the top. Trainer already has significant counterpick resistance, and giving them damage bonus', heal on switch would greatly outbuff the nerf from stamina.

MK26 · Jan 27, 2010

aa said something about how adding all the zelda/sheik files to the sd card drastically increased loading time and removed it as a variable...perhaps we could do something with that?

but i agree, there really isnt much point in playing pt - its just too much work overall for too little reward atm

Veril · Jan 27, 2010

shanus said:
I personally feel like installing those benefits to trainer would be pretty over the top. Trainer already has significant counterpick resistance, and giving them damage bonus', heal on switch would greatly outbuff the nerf from stamina.

As much as I love Gurukid, I have to agree with this. We can't even begin to predict how massive changes like this will work out. The 6-months following the gold-release will be plenty of time to collect the necessary evidence to justify anything this major. For now I simply am not willing to make the leap of faith required for these. It would run absolutely counter to what I've been saying about changes (and I meant what I said, it wasn't merely a political maneuver).

Especially given the charizard discussion... which is much more limited and honestly makes a lot more sense to me than this.

The Cape · Jan 27, 2010

We still have to consider that PT is three (good) characters and have to be wary about buffs to any of them individually.

When we release the next set we should also have a suggested stage list as well.

Cia · Jan 27, 2010

shanus said:
I personally feel like installing those benefits to trainer would be pretty over the top. Trainer already has significant counterpick resistance, and giving them damage bonus', heal on switch would greatly outbuff the nerf from stamina.

The Cape said:
We still have to consider that PT is three (good) characters and have to be wary about buffs to any of them individually.

When we release the next set we should also have a suggested stage list as well.

These. I've been trying to stress these points since page 1.. lol

----

Also, another character we should pay close attention to is Sheik. I haven't been able to test this yet, but I believe she can chain grab a good amount of the cast with Dthrow > Fair > repeat (til about 60-70%). Not only that but her camp and combo potential is probably the best of any of my chars. And by switching to Zelda, she covers MOST of her bad match ups (Jigglypuff, Luigi, Lucario?) The only match up Sheik/Zelda doesn't cover is Metaknight, but i THINK Zelda does better against MK than Sheik.

Sheik has such versatility but I also think she requires a decent amount on skill to use, so i don't think she needs a nerf. Zelda on the other hand..

Brawl+ Project Hub: OP updated 4/28 w/expansion pack and why it is necessary

Hella.

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