Brawl+ Project Hub: OP updated 4/28 w/expansion pack and why it is necessary

[Veril]

THE UPDATER ISSUES MAY BE DUE TO FILE SIZE ISSUES. We need to reduce the size of the main download. Nothing will actually be changed. What we will be doing is moving some of the experimental stages to an alternate "stage expansion pack" download. See my two threads on this for details. This is not a new set. If you think that qualifies as a new set please say so to ensure that I'm completely aware of who here can't read (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=273157).





Changelists MUST be done using the newest official release gold character .pacs (characters being changed in the next release haven't been assigned to anyone yet OR have appropriate explanation)

• Veril: B+broom leader

• Yeroc: wbr leader

• 5ive:

• GuruKid

• Thunderhorse

• Glick

• VaNz:

• Blind

• Lord Karn

• Plum

• VietGeek

• OmegaBlackMage

• Shell

• Bionic Sonic

• Kirk

• Frozen


+?Holy?: I'd like to add Holy as the replacement Rob representative, because he has shown himself willing to have 3-hour IRC discussions with me, and because he really does know his s***.



Leaking any of the discussions from this thread will result in immediate and permanent removal from the wbr.


Stuff you should all work on:
1. Changelists: note, we need to make slight adjustments to a few characters from 7.03 as noted above. Stages need a changelist. The .gct needs a changelist as well.

Brawlplus.net temp broom has some. OBM has done Ganon, Wario, and GW.

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
WarioWare (singles)/SSE Jungle (doubles)


Counterpick: moderate

Brinstar
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Luigi's Mansion+
Lylat Cruise
Pictoplus
Rainbow Cruise
Rumble Falls+
Yoshi's Island: Brawl


Experimental CP/Banned: all need work
PSI+
PTAD+
Summit+ with the ice
Summit+ w/o ice
Skyworld+
Jungle Japes+
Temple+

Apex Stage List:
[1 stage ban]

Singles Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
WarioWare

Doubles Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
SSE Jungle

Singles CPs:
Brinstar
Halberd
Castle Siege+
Yoshi's Island: Brawl
Rumble Falls+

Teams CPs:
Delfino Plaza
Pictochat+
Rainbow Cruise
Luigi's Mansion+
Rumble Falls+

Cape, Bio and I all worked on this stage list. It is designed to minimize bull**** of all sorts and ensure the tournament progresses smoothly and speedily by removing many of the excessively campy or questionable stages. It is simple, small, and elegant. It is not the standard, but reflects the size and scope of the tournament.

 

[The Cape]

From what I have seen and heard these were the things brought up to discuss:

Charizard:
Some growth to D smash

Falco:
Shine hitbox duration longer

Jiggs:
U throw: More base, less growth
Bair: Remove the range increase change

Mario:
Dair: Harder to get out of

Marth:
Physics

Link:
Momentum on upB: Be able to make his own momentum

Pit:
Arrows: 3 dmg

Olimar:
Pikmin physics: Fix their run speed and fall speed and such

Sonic:
Not fall out of U smash

Zelda:
Neutral B reflections.

Ness/Lucas/Diddy/Lucario wall crashes:
Option 1: Give them a hitbox that does them damage for about 5 damage and then give it growth so that it will hurt them bad at later percents and not so bad at 0. This allows them a wall teching opportunity as well.
Option 2: Remove wall crashes all together so they ride up the wall.

Wall jumping mechanic fixes
Meteor Cancel 7 frames
Footstool to 15 with footstool with U taunt button

 

[lord karn]

So I think now that we are getting close to gold, we need to come up with some kind of agenda. For instance, are we going to make any more physics/mechanics changes at all? If so we should really figure that stuff out immediately. After that I think we need to get an organized effort going to play test as many different matchups as possible. By this I mean actually playing with other people and figuring out what options each character has in certain matchups. When each character is safe, threatened, where the decision points are, etc. Based off of this information we should make small tweaks to characters to eliminate really bad matchups. The result, if we are diligent enough, should be a game where all the characters are relatively even on a tier list perspective. The method used up until this point has seemed to be one where we make changes based off of the perceived strong characters at the time, but I think the method I mentioned just now will lead to a much more final and stable game.

 

[Cia]

::Subscribes::

btw, I think we should pay close attention to any buffs given to Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard. Let's keep in mind that they can be selected as one character and cover a TON of match ups in this form. Those who choose the individual pokemon KNOW that their character will have certain weaknesses because of the character's original design. If we buff them too much, we'll be back to square 1 with them.

I personally think Charizard is fine and doesn't need the Dsmash buff. What Charizard lacks is overall attack speed but he's compensated with power. Rock Smash does a ton of damage on it's own and has insane KB. I'm also not sure why, but it comes out really fast when the rock is hit. So combo break rock smash is VERY possible. Flamethrower is good for shield poking and range. Dair and Fair ****.. etc. Charizard is good on his own and great addition to the team.

Ivysaur's Razor leaf.. is too good. But I can't think of a way to fix it without completely ruining the character. I'll be back later with an idea.

Squirtle is probably the most complete of the 3. He's extremely quick and his air mobility *****. He's probably going to land more hits than his opponent. but the trade off is that he lacks power and can't really kill the average character til like.. after 120% I find this amazing. (Even tho he's still an annoying little ****!)

--------

Pit's arrows - Why nerf them? There are much bigger problems. Like Lucario. Those arrows seem kind of insignificant compared to him.

-------

Jiggs Uthrow - Why? And yeah, Glick told me about the hitbox extension on Bair. She doesn't need it. However, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY HE SUPPORTS JIGGS KILLING HERSELF UPON SHIELD BREAK!!

------

Marth physics change would be interesting. I'd like to see it. Maybe diddy too?

------

Mario - uhh.. plzzz keep an eye on Multi-hit Dairs. (King Dedede) Drill rest probably shouldn't work either..

------

Olimar - >_< I HATE this character. As far as I'm concerned, he's lucky to still be in the game. Just don't make it so that I can pick him and time people out

------

Sonic - ehh.. do what want. we'll see how it turns out.

------

Zelda - what do you want to do with her neutral B? I think her Dtilt and Usmash are the biggest problems. Dtilt is basically a kill move since it effortlessly connects into anything Zelda wants. It also kind of locks.. i take about 28% on average from Dtilt strings. And Usmash shouldn't be a kill move. It comes out so fast that it can be used to punish OOS. It also covers a wide range and the lowered hitboxes make her upper-body untouchable.the best thing to balance it would be to weaken it so that it has about as much knockback as a standard Uthrow. This way it's not a broken punisher/killer and she could probably combo from it at low percentages.

-----

Wall crashes - at first I thought it should be changed, but now I don't think so. Recovering would probably be too easy with it. But high level players will easily negate recoveries. I guess I'm 50/50 on the subject. But I really don't like is the idea that if one character gets to have wall crash removed, they all need it removed. Lucario has countless recovery options because he can arc the ExtremeSpeed and then use his jump after (Which I'm starting to find really dumb) the other characters just go in a straight line and go into free fall after. I wouldn't group their recoveries with Lucario's. His is MUCH better.

-----

big post, i know. thoughts?

 

[The Cape]

Ivy razor leaf damage nerf? -2 dmg with same KBs?

 

[Plum]

Just curious on the thoughts of a reduced ledge grab range.
I think it was Camelot(?) who found the ledge grab range, and now that its become a possibility what are the thoughts about it? I just made a post in the 6.0 thread about how almost every match turns into a camp fest vBrawl style as soon as somebody hits that last stock. You can see a 6 minute B+ match on youtube and literally the last 2 minutes of that video are the last stock. Encouraging more edgegaurding by reducing the ledge grab range would increase the speed of the game and reward players for actively edgegaurding. Right now most characters use offstage for tacking on extra percents here and there rather than gimps... Basically people still live forever.

 

[[TSON]]

Pikmin physics: Fix their run speed and fall speed and such

Elaborate?

 

[shanus]

I believe pikmin physics can be altered via the attributes linking that Dantarion recently figured out in OSA2.

Just an fyi.


@Plum, Ledgegrab range was discovered by Phantom Wings, then mapped by Dantarion. Camelot found the disable ledgegrab function

 

[Veril]

I don't think Lucario needs any adjustment to his recovery. Doing anything to buff Lucario is insane.

Keep in mind that with change Lucas and Ness recoveries that they already ride up the stage if you hit at a certain angle. If we go with option 1 we have to make it so the collision doesn't supersede that if the angle you hit the stage at would let you ride up the side normally.

Added the old ledgegrab fix that was never implemented to the list.

WHERE THE H*** IS GURUKID!?

 

[JCaesar]

I don't think any of them should get a recovery buff. None of them are really that hard to deal with and high-level players will rarely if ever kill themselves. Diddy and Lucario especially are just too good to deserve a better recovery.

And yeah I really wanna see that declining invincibility on successive ledgegrabs. It solves the planking problem so elegantly. Smaller ledgegrab range might be unnecessary if we implement it.

 

[Veril]

I don't think any of them should get a recovery buff. None of them are really that hard to deal with and high-level players will rarely if ever kill themselves.

Lucas and diddy both suffer tremendously due to there recoveries. Its easy to say "rarely if ever" when you don't use these characters, but I have witnessed this happen with countless well-executed recovery attempts. They both are too unpredictable even to people extremely proficient in using these recoveries. I know from experience that Lucas' recovery is A FICKLE B****!

Its something that will keep players from picking up these characters. I've had every Lucas and every Diddy main tell me this. They are both being held up by this single issue.


Requirement for any change: If you can't produce a wall of text justifying it, it can't happen. I am not going to argue (and get attacked by the public) for changes that don't have crystal clear logic behind them.

I can easily argue all the changes I've bolded, the Jiggs b-air buff removal (more on that later), the recovery fix for LUCAS/DIDDY (not for Lucario), the ledge-inv. decay... etc. I'll post a wall of text for each while my girlfriend is at work ;p

 

[lord karn]

I think those recoveries should be changed for the simple sake of naturalness of play. Whenever I have tried to play with those characters their recovery feels alien compared to the flow of the rest of the game. For this reason I would probably include ness in that change as well, but his is not quite as bad lucas/diddy's.

Yes, maybe certain characters that receive such buffs are already good. However, I think there is a rank of types of issues. Issues with a higher rank have priority for changing even if they adversely affect issues on a lower rank.

1. Any physics/mechanics changes that need to be made to make the game feel smoother, more natural, or otherwise reach the competitive ends we have set for B+.
2. Any character specific change needed to make that character's play feel smooth and natural.
3. Smaller changes that don't really affect how the character flows but yet affect the balance of the game.

Hopefully all (or almost all) of the changes that would be under rank one have already been made. If they haven't, we need to get them over with because changes in rank one will inevitably have effects on the types of rank 2 and rank 3 changes we need to make.

The recovery changes mentioned above are rank 2 changes. Playing with those characters (when recovering) does not feel smooth and natural the way the rest of the game does. It is important to note that having a good recovery =/= having a smooth and natural recovery. For instance, Mario's recovery is horrible but it still feels right when you are playing with him. Now, in the case of Lucas and Diddy, this change will definitely make their recoveries better. Some would say that Diddy is already too good and doesn't need buffs. This doesn't really matter. We should consider how natural/fun/smooth/whatever it is to play Diddy before we consider how good he is. If it turns out that this change makes him better than he should be, we can tweak him with changes in rank 3 (ie, lowering dmg of his attacks, reducing the actual length of his upb, or countless other changes that won't affect the way he feels to play but will still make him better or worse).

 

[shanus]

Why not just change diddy's upB to make the change action special fall come 5-10 frames earlier so that he keeps going up during the special fall animation but can't tail in and hit the wall like he does in so many classic WTF moments.

 

[JCaesar]

^ That sounds like a pretty good idea.

 

[leafgreen386]

So I think now that we are getting close to gold, we need to come up with some kind of agenda. For instance, are we going to make any more physics/mechanics changes at all? If so we should really figure that stuff out immediately. After that I think we need to get an organized effort going to play test as many different matchups as possible. By this I mean actually playing with other people and figuring out what options each character has in certain matchups. When each character is safe, threatened, where the decision points are, etc. Based off of this information we should make small tweaks to characters to eliminate really bad matchups. The result, if we are diligent enough, should be a game where all the characters are relatively even on a tier list perspective. The method used up until this point has seemed to be one where we make changes based off of the perceived strong characters at the time, but I think the method I mentioned just now will lead to a much more final and stable game.

I think that most changes designed to target specific matchups will need to wait quite a while before being able to be reliably implemented. The purpose of gold1 as I see it is to get out a set that we do not have any problems with at that time, and simply let the metagame and matchups develop over a 3-6 month period. During that time is when we can collect matchup data to be used for making focused balance changes at the end of this period. Before that begins, though, we need to make sure everything else is in order. Once gold is out, it's out, and no one is going to be happy if we need to release a patch excepting one to fix an infinite or otherwise completely dominating tactic before the date we say we will. If character x didn't get something we meant to give them, it'll be too late to give it to them until the full trial period is over. Certainly, it's possible to begin some of these matchup specific tweaks now, but it will only slow down the release of gold. Hence, our goal right now should be making sure everything "feels" right, and fixing things that are not working as intended.

I'd also like to add that I completely agree with your ranks of issues. We should have all rank 1 issues taken care of by this point... but I don't think we do. There's still talk about the ledges, and then there's also the dead frame on jumps that has been continually forgotten about and ignored. I'm pretty sure these are the only global changes left that need to be dealt with, but I may be wrong. These really are changes that should have been done before ever calling the set "near gold," but alas... this is where we are.

 

[MK26]

how about we (you, w/e) do this: I'm just throwing an idea out there, please don't attack me if you think it's incredibly stupid
Release a completely polished set with the (unstated) intention of having it be gold1, but calling it, say, GSH3. Let it linger for a week or two for people to catch any bugs, any new infinites that got past internal testing, a balance fix that didn't do what it needed to, whatever. Get the people's opinions, ask them how it feels, if anything needs improvement (and hope they say no). If there are any fixes needed, patch them all in at once at the end of this 1-2 week and 'upgrade' it to OFFICIAL GOLD status, accompanied by the vBrawl-to-Gold changelist. If there aren't, then just run with it.

Also, +1 to Shanus's idea...making Diddy go into freefall either at or just before the apex of his up-b's movement is probably the least intrusive and simplest way of fixing his recovery

 

[Veril]

1. Any physics/mechanics changes that need to be made to make the game feel smoother, more natural, or otherwise reach the competitive ends we have set for B+.
2. Any character specific change needed to make that character's play feel smooth and natural.
3. Smaller changes that don't really affect how the character flows but yet affect the balance of the game.

While this makes sense, it leaves a lot out.

physics changes are anathema. I am really, intensely opposed to physics changes at this point with the exceptions of two characters: Marth and Wolf. No other physics adjustments are going to be considered. Physics changes are by far the most significant and blatant changes we can make and only in the case of those two characters will I allow this.

They both are too radically altered, both in my opinion and the opinion of just about every main of these characters. The major problem here is that because aerials have been designed with a specific SH duration in mind, any physics change must not alter the amount of SH airtime.

tl;dr: Only Marth/Wolf are eligable for any physics adjustments. Any physics adjustment must preserve the existing SH durations. FYI Marth's SH airtime is 40, Wolf's is 29.


Fixing Mistakes / Glitches / infinites is the top priority. These have been discussed at length. Ideally this will be done by removing changes rather than adding new ones. I would agree with the second two and combine Marth/wolf physics changes with #3.

Regardless of changes ALL of these must be implemented. Priority reflects the necessity of the argument for a specific change. Anything that is top priority will be implemented, period. Everything below that warrants... healthy debate.

Also, +1 to Shanus's idea...making Diddy go into freefall either at or just before the apex of his up-b's movement is probably the least intrusive and simplest way of fixing his recovery

Shanus's idea would make use of diddy's recovery onto the stage much safer. I'm not considering it unless the other options prove to be prohibitively difficult.

Release a completely polished set with the (unstated) intention of having it be gold1, but calling it, say, GSH3. Let it linger for a week or two for people to catch any bugs, any new infinites that got past internal testing, a balance fix that didn't do what it needed to, whatever.

Replace "a week" with 6 months and you pretty much have my plan. That's how much time its gonna take imo to really figure out the final balance changes we need to make before gold.

 

[shanus]

Veril: How so?

A slightly earlier timer will still put him into an early special fall only 5-10 frames earlier which will largely leave any angled recovery crashes unchanged and only effects the marginal angled crashes. And if it would prove to be a problem, then up his special fall landlag. Honestly if a diddy is recovering from that far above anyway and is still using his upB, he is going to be punished for it. (It's only telegraphed for about 10 hours.)

Your point doesn't make any sense really at all....

 

[JCaesar]

Wait, what's wrong with Wolf's physics?

<goes to check Wolf+ thread>

And also, ninja'd by Shanus, how does it make Diddy's recovery super-safe?

 

[Veril]

Sorry, I didn't fully understand your idea at first. It actually does sound really good. What about Lucas?

Also: On Marth's SH duration. If, and only if, you've got a 2/3 majority that supports doing this, we can alter Marth's physics to that degree. I will probably regret this >.<

 

[shanus]

I could probably spend more time working on Ness & Lucas wallbounce now that I have a better understanding of how these functions work.

Unfortunately, I could never figure out how lucarios actually works. Some form of hidden operation makes it switch into the crash ID and I have -no idea- how it works. I'll share more knowledge whenever I figure it out.

 

[GuruKid]

I only recently discovered I was admitted to the WBR. Cool beans. Will only comment on chars I use extensively/am familiar with.

Squirtle is perfect. Mobility, racks up damage like crazy, but lacks range and has much difficulty landing the final kill. Balanced; no changes required.

Ivysaur: A near impenetrable wall that, once penetrated, falls very hard.

Charizard: Now the weak link of the trio. I gotta ask again...

Has a way to increase the amount of jumps been made possible?

I feel that, compared to other flyers (namely DDD), his power/gimp ability-to-recovery ratio is way off. Meta, Jiggs, Kirby, ROB all have extremely efficient gimping abilityand have super-effective means of returning to the stage:

Meta: 6 jumps, specials (except down-B) act as great recoveries. Lacks power, but gimps like crazy.
Jiggs: 6 jumps, combined with pound. Extraordinary combination of power and gimp ability.
Kirby: 6 jumps, forward-B and Up-B. Not really powerful, but another easy gimper.
ROB: Homie has a jetpack, and a hibox shield with Nair. Combination of power and gimpage.

DDD is a super-special exception. 5 jumps, and a recovery that equals like 4 of those jumps. The ability to cancel up-B allows for recovery mix-ups. All this... and the penguin is a raw powerhouse, with both pure kill power and easy gimping.

The above characters have no problem going offstage and freely throwing out 3 aerials without much caution as to their accuracy or distance from the ledge.

Charizard: 3 jumps, and an up-B that's inefficient in... recovering. Fly goes in 3 different angles, yet they don't differ enough to allow for mixups. There's a weird thing that after fly is completed, there's a second-long pause before he grabs the ledge. Edgeguarding with Charizard: mispace (or flat-out miss) a fair or dair, and you gotta book it back to the stage before you run out of jumps and SD. It's annoying, and though I normally would have little problem with this quality, it seems unnecessary when other flyers (again, namely DDD), have far more aerial prowess.




In short...

Other flyers are superior to Charizard in terms of power:gimping:recovery ratio... and it's stupid.

Buffing Dsmash does not remedy the deeper issue; that move naturally sucks and unfortunately cannot be made useful with being made broken. Real way to fix this? Give more jumps. 1 or 2 extra jumps may be just what he needs to stay on par with the rest of the cast (though I would want to go more with just 1... see how that plays out first).

End of essay.


Also wanna (again) throw the idea of heal-on-switch for trainer out there, with damage taken reduced on trainer pokemon by 1 or 2% without any effect to knockback (so a move which deals 12% damage to normal characters would instead inflict 11 or 10% on trainer pokemon, though with the same knockback... goes with the idea of Trainer Pokemon generally being EV trained and thus stronger in the games). This brought with a reintroduction of stamina may make for a very strategic version of PT that I believe Sakurai, though with good intentions, failed at recreating.

 

[Plum]

I'm still not sure that Lucario needs any sort of recovery change. There's an argument for Diddy, but with Lucario it seems that you should always be able to space a sweetspot, curve around ledges, or Up B first and then double jump.

I didn't watch all of Lee Martin's matches from Pound 4 but from what I saw he had no issue in avoiding a wall crash in basically every situation one way or another.

 

[Veril]

I didn't watch all of Lee Martin's matches from Pound 4 but from what I saw he had no issue in avoiding a wall crash in basically every situation one way or another.

This. Lee Martin never f***ed up in the entire time I watched him. Lucario's up-b is so much better than the other recoveries in question that they can't even be compared.

 

[shanus]

I'm not questioning that, I was just using it as evidence that wall crashes are a PITA to figure out.

 

[Cia]

Wall crashes - at first I thought it should be changed, but now I don't think so. Recovering would probably be too easy with it. But high level players will easily negate recoveries. I guess I'm 50/50 on the subject. But I really don't like is the idea that if one character gets to have wall crash removed, they all need it removed. Lucario has countless recovery options because he can arc the ExtremeSpeed and then use his jump after (Which I'm starting to find really dumb) the other characters just go in a straight line and go into free fall after. I wouldn't group their recoveries with Lucario's. His is MUCH better.

guess no one read my post =/

 

[Veril]

guess no one read my post =/

Yeah, we did. Diddy's recovery fix, Shanus's at least, won't require messing with wall crashes. For Ness/Lucas I'd like for them to simply ride up the walls better. Lucario needs nothing.

 

[JCaesar]

I read it Vanz <3

ROB: Homie has a jetpack

Thanks, I needed a new sig

I'm not sure all your PT ideas are possible but they sound pretty interesting.

Also: On Marth's SH duration. If, and only if, you've got a 2/3 majority that supports doing this, we can alter Marth's physics to that degree. I will probably regret this >.<

What exactly did you mean by this?

Don't crucify me or anything, but I actually think Marth should have his SHDF back...

Let me elaborate really quickly. I know the arguments why SHDF should be removed and I pretty much agreed. I know SHDF camping is not a great strategy (saying it's not broken is not actually an argument for removing it but whatever), and I know he doesn't need it to be good. It's more the image it gives us. Several Marth mains have said they won't touch B+ because of this. I can't directly relate to it since ROB's been basically untouched, but I can at least see where they're coming from. It's been a staple Marth tactic forever. You might as well be removing Diddy's bananas or Fox's shine. Again, I know it makes sense for balance reasons and such, but it gives Brawl+ a terrible first impression to people (mostly Marth mains) that we're willing to remove something that, in a way, defines a character. It's really not the same thing as removing DDD's CGs or IC's infinites. Even DDD and IC players know that that **** was stupid and gay. There's a big difference between a staple tactic like SHDF (which has definite counters) and an inescapable, unDIable chaingrab.

 

[shanus]

Make lucario's ride up a wall but remove all his jumps when he uses it

 

[The Cape]

The only reason why Ness, Lucas, and Lucario were even brought up is sadly due to the community and their "whine until **** gets fixed" attitude. Once Diddy wall crash was brought up as needed to be fixed these three came to mind as people that would complain "well this character has it" kind of crap. Just why they are in consideration.

I personally find Lucario's recovery to be insanely beast if used correctly and he needs neither buffs nor nerfs as a character as he can be beaten he is just very powerful and good when used right.

I wonder if it would be possible to input a "lose the barrels" button on Diddy's recovery. This would have the barrels fly off and keep him moving through the air in special fall with the momentum from before. This could be insanely overpowered or just right if done correctly and kind of peels off the Shanus idea.

Lucas has the ability to tether so should not be considered on the recovery aspect. Ness has the faster PKT1 which also reduces his landing lag to almost zero and he also has his stupid zap jump. Diddy is the only one of the four that should ever be changed, but we should be ready to make large arguements against the other three if anything is enacted.

What about the self hitting hitbox idea for Diddy with a high growth rate so that he can tech with good timing or fall to his death at mid to high percents only (instead of that stupid death at any percent crap).

 

[Shell]

Has a way to increase the amount of jumps been made possible?

In PSA there is a "Jumps" attribute. You can quite easily modify this by upping the number, as far as I know.

 

[The Cape]

Shell you cant.

The jumps all have their own values so when you add a new one the character will just T pose.

You can remove jumps just fine, but adding new ones tends to be an issue. We would have to find a way to copy the exact animation of the final jump to create a new final jump with the same values to make it work. Thats what Guru was addressing.

 

[[TSON]]

Wait, no... It is only a T-pose if the character was originally a multijumper. Characters like Falco and Pikachu with two jumps are just fine.

 

[Plum]

I've seen plenty of PSA characters with excessive amounts of jumps. Wisp is the most well known... So its obviously a possibility if going in that direction for Charizard was considered.

 

[[TSON]]

Yes, but, you can't see Wisp jumping, so we don't know if it T-poses or not

 

[Yeroc]

I've added the animation and execution functionality for a 3rd jump, but it doesn't actually "jump" if you will. It makes the noise, he goes flap, just no change in momentum. I don't know how to add it . Eldiran?

 

[Cia]

god.. i wanna use wisp in tournament..

On topic - I don't think Charizard needs an extra jump anyway. Every character doesn't need to be off stage edge guarding someone in the magnefied zone. Peach is a character who can recover about as well as a multi-jumper, but it's not usually good for her to edge guard off stage. Charizard's strengths are spacing and building damage. Making him a Puff ball would be too much =/

 

[omegablackmage]

whew lots of stuff to talk about here:

diddy/lucas/ness: what i think i would prefer to see with these guys would be a wall crash that deals damage, has a certain amount of stun to it, but doesn't put them in freefall. If you mess up sweetspotting or recovering with these guys you aren't screwed, but should certainly take some damage for it. I would attribute this to a marth ditto in melee where when recovering if your too high you eat an fsmash and you have to tech. Your only option to recover is to drop down and try again. I felt like that was a good way of going about a punished recovery like that. Thoughts?

edit: after reading shanus's idea again, i think i understand what he's proposing more, and that would probably be the direction we want to go in.

pit: would probably like to see a % reduction or two on the arrows. As is, Most characters will be forced to eat at least three arrows on the way back to the ledge from a solid hit, giving them another 15 % to deal with. Pits already really good at edgeguarding, him sitting near the ledge and shooting arrows shouldn't deal so much. This is all of course ignoring his camp game in general, i don't think any other character with a projectile can rack up this much damage from across the stage.

lucario: i would agree that his recovery should be left alone. Reserving your up b and being able to curve your es is enough for him. The others don't have the luxury of not being in freefall after their recoveries.

charizard: def fix that roll problem, i think most agree thats bad. As far as dsmash, leave it alone, with good di its hard to get anything more than an upair on most characters, more kbg will make the move even less enticing than it already is. I would approve of an extra jump for charizard if it is at all possible. ONLY ONE THOUGH. I think more than that, and his spike would just be too strong. Kirby is the only other jumper with a spike, and thats only balanced because of how small the hitbox is, chari's is probably 4x the size horozontally.

pkmn trainer: guru, i really like that idea. As i see it now, playing pkmn trainer has no incentives, because against a certain person, if you know they play x character, you know which pokemon you want to play already. So really, the only advantage to pkmn trainer as is, is in a double blind pick, or when getting cp'd and you don't know who they'll switch to. Not enough imo. The heal idea and some form of stamina would add an extra level of strategy to which pkmn or trainer you choose.

marth: I really have no gripes with the way marth feels right now. I guess im rather indifferent to this change because i don't really understand what it would entail.

sonic: those changes look good to me.

jigglypuff: changes here look good

mario: dair buff is fine. should we do the same for lucas's nair? someone mentioned it was incredibly easy to di out of, and thats his approach move like mario's dair is. I figure both these characters could use the buff.

olimar: physics changes to pikmin look good.

zelda: def fix that reflector.

ivysaur: i would probably vote no the razor leaf change. he seems pretty well balanced as is. The move is easy enough to get around and he's easily gimped/has a bad grab in return. He seems fine.

icies: was completely removing nana grabbing the only way out here? Its a bit disheartening to know that when your desynching with iceblocks or blizzards your very non threatening half the time (when popo is blizzarding/iceblocking cuz nana can't grab in stun). Is there no way to have a line that states 'when either ice climber grabs no grabs can be performed for say, 60 frames' ? This change seems to hurt they're desynch game a lot, which is i think the direction we're trying to take these guys right?

other changes: i like the repeated ledgegrab rule, cept maybe not a decay, i would like to see all i frames removed on the fourth grab, i would want this change to be harsh against campers.

 

[The Cape]

Making something like "Full invulerable for the first four grabs, then nothing" Will be STRONGLY abused. The aggressive decay forces you off the ledge. Landing on the stage or getting hit should reset it.

As for the Lucas nair. Its a KO move and he has followups when they get out. While dair is not Mario's primary KO move and doesnt KO for beans or lead to much of anything after about 45%. Which is a good reason to keep it as a damage builder/sheild pressure move with some follow ups.

 

[leafgreen386]

Kill planking: Ledgegrab-regrab invincibility frame decay after 3rd grab. Counter reset upon returning to stage.

...or upon getting hit, right? Characters with ledge traps will greatly abuse a system that doesn't restore your grabs when hit.

Also, I'm curious as to who was complaining about wolf's physics. I've never seen anyone complain about them before, and there wasn't anything in the wolf thread, either.

As for PT... the reasons that OBM outlined should be the exact reasons someone picks PT in the first place: the incredible matchup resistance that comes from being three characters in one. True, you have no reason to use PT on your own CP, but that comes from PT not really being his own unique character... no matter what you do to him. If you pick PT, you're probably not gonna have any really bad matchups, but you're probably also not going to have any amazing ones. This is what you get when you split your time between three different playstyles in a match: since your strengths and weaknesses are no where near as polarized as other characters, you can't be counterpicked nearly as easily, but for that same reason, you lose your ability to counterpick others. If you do have a reason to use PT on your own CP, then we're looking at a potentially broken character here, since that would mean not only would PT have great matchup resistance, but it would mean he's also countering other characters more effectively than any of his individual parts, which are designed to be viable on their own.