Brawl+ Project Hub: OP updated 4/28 w/expansion pack and why it is necessary

Veril · Jan 27, 2010

After the end of this week I will be sending out what hopefully will be my last set of votes. It will likely be a lot bigger and contain more of the "questionable" changes. So if you guys want to bring up something new... the clock is ticking. We cannot afford to waste any time finalizing the sensitive changes. Removing bugs and such won't require the concerted PR effort that these will, and we can afford to make that sort of change as necessary.

The longer we wait on balance sensitive changes, the more inertia we will have to overcome. By the end of this week, we need to have this figured out and have the new .pacs, .gct and .txt. Then we can spend a week playtesting and making sure there are no glitches. After that s**** gold and ... the work will be of a very different sort.

I don't think Zelda or Sheik warrant any changes other than fixing the reflector.

Plum · Jan 27, 2010

G&W can still counter Sheik, and he flat out dominates Zelda (among other characters :laugh:

).

goodoldganon · Jan 27, 2010

It's at least worth checking to see if D-throw to F-air is a CG against as many people in the cast as Vanz says. If it really is as potent as he says I don't see how that might not require some tweaking.

Cia · Jan 27, 2010

Veril said:
I don't think Zelda or Sheik warrant any changes other than fixing the reflector.

Have you SEEN Zelda's Usmash? Ryoko's been Usmashing bob-ombs w/o harm..

that stupid invulnerability buff makes her completely unapproachable from the air. She's like a boss character.. lol. Not only that but the Din's fire hitbox growth is absolutely ********. maybe if the fire ball grew, it wouldn't be as bad. She takes "sorcery" character role way too far. Her Dtilt strings are dumb and give her INCREDIBLY easy damage.

I wouldn't be so opposed to Zelda if she wasn't so incredibly easy to pick up and play. A couple of weeks ago, I fought Blackanese and tournament and it was 3rd game Sheik vs Metaknight on Smashville. He took away my first stock only taking 14 percent. Out of desperation, I spawn and transform in Zelda. I end up winning the match with 2 stock and like.. 20ish percent. All I did was Usmash, Fsmash, Dsmash OoS, Din's fire camp, and Combo break w/ Nayru's Love.

That is HORRENDOUS because I haven't even logged in an hour of Zelda practice. She requires less skill than any character I've ever seen and she's going to get alot of people some un-earned victories.

MK26 · Jan 27, 2010

yeah uh

cosign to vanz

get rid of the dtilt **** for sure

im not 100% on the other stuff, but im fairly sure something should be done to zelda

JCaesar · Jan 27, 2010

I really don't think Zelda needs any nerfs. She may be easy to play but she has bad matchups and isn't ridiculous. Matchup knowledge helps a lot against her.

Though I do think her usmash should be reverted back to what it was in 5.0.

Cia · Jan 27, 2010

I_Am_Plum said:
G&W can still counter Sheik, and he flat out dominates Zelda (among other characters ).

I forgot about GaW. but does he really counter Sheik? I feel like I could needle camp him forever.

Plum · Jan 27, 2010

Sheik's options are to run away, needle camp, and hope they create an opening. Technically the chain will beat G&W's aerials, but its too slow, and G&W can just toss bacon any time she tries to use the chain. That's all the matchup was in vBrawl... She punishes harder now, but G&W's priority still tops her options assuming he's not making mistakes.

Sheik has speed and needles, and that's basically it in the matchup. Up close G&W can beat out everything Sheik has, and spamming Up B gets him out of practically any sticky situation. Invincibility, quick startup, windboxes, and putting big distance between each character = **** good string breaker.

Cia · Jan 27, 2010

^ Those are some pretty good points. Even with that included, that's just two characters that aren't covered by Sheik/Zelda.. right? or am I missing someone else?

Yeroc · Jan 27, 2010

MK26 said:
aa said something about how adding all the zelda/sheik files to the sd card drastically increased loading time and removed it as a variable...perhaps we could do something with that?

That's actually one of the items on my checklist for a gold release. Not a crucial step to take at the moment, but it will end up as part of the whole packaged set in the end.

The Cape · Jan 27, 2010

The reason why the U smash changes were made was so that her U smash (which beat out everything above but Ike dair) couldnt pierce platforms too. The fact that the move beat everything from above and had no decay made it exceedingly silly. Initially I removed the range on it, but that made it a bad anti air, so I added the invulnerability.

Maybe if we can readjust the hitboxes so that they cover above her better, but without the invulnerability it might be the best of both worlds. Piercing platforms is out completely though because as soon as she gets you above her on any stage, you dont land. Its really stupid.

Magus420 · Jan 27, 2010

You can u-smash bob-ombs at like chest height and they still don't even hit her, lol. I really don't think it needs to be more than just her head and whichever arm she swings during the attack being invincible. There's like a gigantic list of invincible body part functions in her pac.

The Cape · Jan 27, 2010

Yea, we could always just tone those down.

As for the D tilt thing, its pretty easy to see coming and you learn to SDI it.

omegablackmage · Jan 27, 2010

I like the ideas for the pokemon trainer, but we should probably refrain from changing that at the moment. Same for the extra jump for charizard, if anything we should adjust the aerial momentum (considerably less drastic).

For zelda, i agree we should remove the unnecessary i frames but thats about it.

Cia · Jan 27, 2010

The Cape said:
Yea, we could always just tone those down.

As for the D tilt thing, its pretty easy to see coming and you learn to SDI it.

I know how to SDI it. but the average character (CF for example) can be hit with Dtilt > Dtilt > Dtilt > Fsmash OoS. that's 7+7+7+Fsmash. =/

Zelda can do 3 dtilts for an automatic 21% after a 4th Dtilt, CF can sheild, so that's replaced is Fsmash.

MK26 · Jan 28, 2010

Just to write this down somewhere...

Gold Stages

StageDLC1 Level Freezer

Code:

Level Freezer[Phantom Wings/Almas]
42000000 90000000
0416A904 00000000
2A180F3A 00000015
2A180F3A 00000017
0416A904 3F000000
2A180F3A 00000005
0416A904 3F2AAAAB
2A180F3A 00000024
2A180F3A 0000002D
2A180F3A 00000031
0416A904 BF800000
2A180F3A 00000014
2A180F3A 0000001C
2A180F3A 00000020
0416A904 3F800000
E0000000 80008000

Explanation

Code:

Level Freezer[Phantom Wings/Almas]
42000000 90000000

0416A904 00000000 [COLOR="Red"]0x[/COLOR]
2A180F3A 00000015 [COLOR="Red"]Spear Pillar [U](remove?)[/U][/COLOR]
2A180F3A 00000017 [u][COLOR="red"]Summit[/COLOR][/U]

0416A904 3F000000 [COLOR="red"]0.5x[/COLOR]
2A180F3A 00000005 [COLOR="red"]Mushroomy Kingdom [u](remove?)[/COLOR][/u]

0416A904 3F2AAAAB [COLOR="red"]0.667x[/COLOR]
2A180F3A 00000024 [COLOR="red"]PictoChat[/COLOR]
2A180F3A 0000002D [COLOR="red"]Green Greens[/COLOR]
2A180F3A 00000031 [COLOR="red"]Big Blue [u](remove?)[/COLOR][/u]

0416A904 BF800000 [COLOR="red"]-1x[/COLOR]
2A180F3A 00000014 [COLOR="red"]Pokemon Stadium 2[/COLOR]
2A180F3A 0000001C [COLOR="red"]WarioWare[/COLOR]
2A180F3A 00000020 [u][COLOR="red"]New Pork City[/COLOR][/U]

0416A904 3F800000 [COLOR="red"]1x[/COLOR]
E0000000 80008000

[COLOR="red"][u]Luigi's Mansion Slowdown Removed[/u][/COLOR]

Yeroc · Jan 28, 2010

Move Warioware to -1 and you're golden.

MK26 · Jan 28, 2010

as i said in the chat, that's what i got from the present txt...

The Cape · Jan 29, 2010

We should remove the stage boundary increases.

FrozenHobo · Jan 29, 2010

just a note:

15 is spear pillar and 1C is wario ware. everything else is right (and subsequently, this means everything is in the right place).

Glick · Jan 29, 2010

VaNz said:
And by switching to Zelda, she covers MOST of her bad match ups (Jigglypuff, Luigi, Lucario?) The only match up Sheik/Zelda doesn't cover is Metaknight, but i THINK Zelda does better against MK than Sheik.

The worst part about this, is besides all the ******** crap that ryoko slipped into each release, is that she can transform without consequence if she can finish the start up. Meaning if she knocks you offstage she has the time to transform.

I'm overall angry with ryoko and the old WBR for basically giving him the freedom to change whatever he wanted to zelda without any argument.

She is like the old bowser, old ganon
She is just ********. Good in stupid ways, silly ways.

It really takes almost no skill to be on a high level with zelda, but at this point there is nothing we can do except let the metagame evolve. If zelda ends up being top tier because she can repeat up smash over and over again in place and there is nothing some characters can do about it, we'll have to deal with it in six months time.

It's a sad situation, but we have to let it go.

Agree with pokemon trainer buffs. it's too late for last minute changes. these should have been included in near gold.

MK26 · Jan 29, 2010

:/

fix'd

EDIT: is there any possibility that we can squeeze in another codeset before the Gold release? It seems to me like we're resigning to a suboptimal release because these problems are...just cropping up now

Glick · Jan 29, 2010

MK26 said:
:/

fix'd

EDIT: is there any possibility that we can squeeze in another codeset before the Gold release? It seems to me like we're resigning to a suboptimal release because these problems are...just cropping up now

What are we going to call it?
Near near gold?

Seriously, all the changes are experimental. the game is balanced for the most part.
We can't balance a game fully on our own, we need to base balancing off the way players play the character.

And we can't keep changing a character after every tournament. they should feel secure that their character isn't getting nerfed if they ****, or discover a crazy combo. We need to let it evolve on it's own.

lord karn · Jan 29, 2010

I don't really think Zelda is that good. Stupid, yes, but good, not really. She is a character that will **** you if you don't know what do do against her or just mess up. However, I can definitely see her having a lot of bad matchups vs. characters that can just abuse certain moves. Zelda seems to have large blindspots, but the areas where she punishes she punishes stupidly hard. Thus, players who don't realize where the blindspots are get ***** because the Zelda easily stays in positions where she can ****.

However, I do think a character being that one-sided is kind of silly, so I wouldn't be opposed to changes to make her stupid moves less stupid, but also giving her the ability to threaten a larger space.

JCaesar · Jan 29, 2010

Glick said:
If zelda ends up being top tier because she can repeat up smash over and over again in place and there is nothing some characters can do about it, we'll have to deal with it in six months time.

Usmash can't be beaten from the air but it is punishable on block. It isn't so ridiculous that she can win without anything else, and having a good anti-aerial game isn't enough to make her top tier. Zelda has far too many weaknesses to be top tier.

The Cape · Jan 29, 2010

lord karn said:
I don't really think Zelda is that good. Stupid, yes, but good, not really. She is a character that will **** you if you don't know what do do against her or just mess up.

I agree with this completely. As for the U smash, its only invulnerable to her waist so you can still hit her with low hitting moves like Marth U tilt and punish if you can block it. It at least doesnt poke platforms anymore >.>

Veril · Jan 29, 2010

Invincibility frames on her up-smash

that either has to go, or the invincible areas need to be shifted so that it doesn't beat out nearly all aerial approaches (I think we should just remove them). Her reflector fix has been detailed by Magus, and that should be implemented as well.

Glick said:
And we can't keep changing a character after every tournament. they should feel secure that their character isn't getting nerfed if they ****, or discover a crazy combo. We need to let it evolve on it's own.

People will undoubtedly discover plenty of mini-CGs, **** combos, and exploit to the fullest any mistakes we make. This is a good thing. I'm aware of A LOT of low% CGs, nearly all escapable or extremely % and character limited. I think its safe to say that more than half the cast has some grab-combo that allows for a regrab against someone at some %. We have a good idea of things that are going to get abused: Lucario's extreme-speed, Bowser's OOS Fortress, Luigi's d-air combos, Sheik's d-throw. The moves that are genuine, obvious, overcentralizing elements: Jiggs bair, Zelda's up-smash possibly, etc, are what we should make sure to remove before gold. After gold comes out, people will actually be forced to think around tactics rather than just whine about the and hope for a change (see Chibosempai's Jigglypuff Johns lol).

So yeah, after this next release... that's it for 6 months in terms of balance changes.

The Cape · Jan 29, 2010

The thing about the Zelda U smash:

At its original values it could pierce platforms and beat everything above it except Ike dair. So I lowered all hitboxes on a shift of 5 units. This made it so she could not hit platforms. Now Falco bair could beat it out from above (and another slew of moves) so I made her waist up invulnerable during the hitboxes and now Ike dair is still the only move that can pierce it from above.

Maybe some minor shifts but it does exactly what it should do. Same anti air power it had before, but doesnt pierce platforms.

leafgreen386 · Jan 29, 2010

Glick said:
What are we going to call it?
Near near gold?

Seriously, all the changes are experimental. the game is balanced for the most part.
We can't balance a game fully on our own, we need to base balancing off the way players play the character.

And we can't keep changing a character after every tournament. they should feel secure that their character isn't getting nerfed if they ****, or discover a crazy combo. We need to let it evolve on it's own.

Call it 6.1. "Near Gold" is not a name. It's a status. I think that before what we consider gold is released, it should be put out as simply another update, and then if there are no more problems, promote it to "gold" status with a few added stages and such. Absolutely nothing should change as far as the characters are concerned between the final release candidate and the actual gold release.

FrozenHobo · Jan 29, 2010

so should the first DLC stage pack be included in gold? we already have enough new ones being worked on that we could still have a stage DLC after it goes gold.

Plum · Jan 29, 2010

Wondering if anybody would agree with me on this one:

A near global reduction of stage boundaries.

The biggest complaint I have gotten from people I've gotten to play B+ is that its still feeling slow, and the biggest reason they give to that is how characters still live to vBrawl percents. My DDD regularly hits around 200% before he finally dies, even my G&W can push towards 150 or 160 which is just wrong considering he has no bucket braking. Few characters have early finishers that they can actually land on a competent opponent. Seems like unless your going up against somebody like Falcon, Jiggly or Wario that you're going to live for a long time.

I was playing on AMKalmar's YI:M and the tight boundaries there had me dying around 110-120, and it was a beautiful thing to have stocks go that quickly for a change. Take a stage like FD where even mid weight characters can push their life to like 180 and reduce that towards 150. I personally think the game would benefit a lot from reducing how long people live, and the complaints I hear agree with that statement.

If the old boundary adjustments are going to be taken out, I think it would do wonders for the game to have other stages looked at as well. Seems like the least intrusive way to inject a big speed boost into the game.

The Cape · Jan 29, 2010

I agree with Plum. The only boundary increase that should be kept in is the one for Wario Ware. The rest should be removed for sure. Maybe bring in the boundaries on some of the stages (WiFi)

lord karn · Jan 29, 2010

I agree.

10agreements

Thunderhorse+ · Jan 29, 2010

Couldn't have said it better myself.

JCaesar · Jan 29, 2010

The Cape said:
I agree with Plum. The only boundary increase that should be kept in is the one for Wario Ware. The rest should be removed for sure. Maybe bring in the boundaries on some of the stages (WiFi)

Agreed 100%.

goodoldganon · Jan 29, 2010

Didn't we edit Corneria's boundaries? If I remember the original ones were mighty terrible/small but other then that I totally agree that it seems people are living to way too high of percentages and we might need to reevaluate the boundaries on some stages. I would suggest waiting for us/you guys to come up with stage list before you start working on any boundary mods

Veril · Jan 29, 2010

Corneria isn't a competitive stage. I don't know why we'd tweak stages that will be banned regardless.

The boundary increases can certainly go, except Warioware (as has already been stated).

MK26 · Jan 29, 2010

nobody takes corneria seriously anyways...if we want to be serious about it, we should use something like this somewhere down rhe line:

Mewtwo_2000 said:
New Great Fox

Not much to say, I have grabbed this one from the toy collection, resized it, and made playable

I'm to see which background I give, this could be an alternative version of sector Z, so I could use the original Z again on the universe from lylat cruise, I'll see that later

and we can just throw in a size increase to the ww pac along with jumpable walls and call it a day...give me some numbers (x% increase, y units increase, w/e) and i can whip something up real quick

Veril · Jan 29, 2010

On Kirby: I actually agree with M2K, Chu, and Allied. Allied and Chu are the best Kirby's in vBrawl, and M2K is M2K, so they've got better credentials than almost anyone who's asked for a buff to their character. The f-smash nerf makes a lot less sense given how much his KO potential was nerfed via alterations to his throw.

I would do terrible things to get M2K to publically support B+. Returning Kirby's f-smash some of its killing power is both completely reasonable and honestly a really smart PR move.

VietGeek · Jan 29, 2010

plum would seize my glory by bringing the topic back up in a statement over a question :mad088:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9379718&postcount=85

i hope to the heavens m2k and veril never communicate via aim

Brawl+ Project Hub: OP updated 4/28 w/expansion pack and why it is necessary

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