the secret zelda strats discussionzone

Magus420 · Mar 30, 2010

You can't CC d-air since it doesn't send upwards (ASDIing down does nothing). If you hit someone when they are in the actual crouch animation they get halved hitlag and 2/3 the knockback and hitstun, but they obviously can't do that while sleeping.

D-air to d-smash can start comboing at like 15% if you time it very well. It also only does 19% though. Kicks do 20% when fresh. If you've hit with both your b-air and f-air recently on that stock the d-air to d-smash will do slightly more but is a lot easier to **** up at low percents.

If they're between 46-57% you can do D-Air->D-Tilt->D-Smash (26 dmg), and if they happen to be at 50-51% you can go for D-Air->D-Tilt (x2)->D-Smash (32.37 dmg) which are all guaranteed if you do them right. You could also try them above those ranges where the d-tilt would be popping them up before doing the d-smash, but if they ASDI the d-tilt down and immediately getup attack/stand/roll the d-smash can whiff.

You can safely punish with a charged f-smash if you space it to only connect with the final hit which has slightly more range than the others. Get as close as you can next to them ~~with your front facing them~~ facing in the same direction as Puff (so if behind them be touching with your frontside, and if in front have your back touching them), and then roll through them to the other side (back roll if you were in front, forward roll if you were behind). C-Stick the f-smash (so you don't potentially dash slightly by inputting with forward+A) and hold Z/A to charge it. This gives you the proper spacing for it pretty easily. For example, if you want to send them to the left get as close as you can on their left side (walk or wavedash into them), roll to the right, then charge f-smash to the left. It KOs better than a kick but does something between 19-20% so for straight damage it's about the same as a kick and takes longer to set up.

Dark Hart · Mar 30, 2010

EPsilon933 said:
Hey, Dark Hart!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7unHgT6PmSc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfLYmVaj1Tk

Juan told me he knew the Zelda match-up after the set... **** you The Lake!!!

Cosmo! · Mar 30, 2010

Magus420 said:
You can safely punish with a charged f-smash if you space it to only connect with the final hit which has slightly more range than the others. Get as close as you can next to them with your front facing them, and then roll through them to the other side. This gives you the proper spacing for it pretty easily. For example, if you want to send them to the left get as close as you can on their left side (walk or wavedash into them), roll to the right, then charge f-smash to the left. It KOs better than a kick but does something between 19-20% so for straight damage it's about the same as a kick and takes longer to set up.

truly brilliant, going to keep this in mind

KirbyKaze · Mar 30, 2010

Zelda is the future of this game's "random characters that may do well for some reason".

TheLake · Mar 30, 2010

Dark Hart said:
Juan told me he knew the Zelda match-up after the set... **** you The Lake!!!

;D im here all week

Umm magus

You know what you should do

Like pick up zelda again

and like

post more knowledge

cause **** boy you packing them numbers

and i like where they are going

KK

Naked mud wrestle mm

during a shiek vs zelda match

KirbyKaze · Mar 31, 2010

A MM within a MM?

O.O

*mind explodes*

EPsilon933 · Mar 31, 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko-zGsDuMD4

Dark Hart wasn't the only Zelda at Herb 3. We should have Zelda dittoed.

GKInfinity · Mar 31, 2010

The WoP is so scary, but then again so are zelda's kicks. Oh, and good stuff Epsilon

Just wondering, does anyone have any info about drifting hitboxes while using farores? I ask because I was actually playing against someone using zelda the other day while I was using puff. At some point, he used farores sideways through the air and I rested him out of it, but I was a good distance away from him and shouldn't have really gotten the rest. I know that hitboxes will sort of drift while using some of the faster moves, so I was wondering if anyone with AR could test it and see where her hitboxes are during/immediately after using farores. (And pics are always nice, lol) This obviously doesn't really help her game at all since she defenseless after using farores anyway, but I thought it would be interesting to see.

Edit: Zelda dittos ****. I need to find KOF (aka Kawn) and get him to play melee again. There aren't enough zeldas over here on the west coast

Dark Hart · Mar 31, 2010

Lake, teach me the ways of Zelda when going vs Jiggz please?

EPsilon933 · Mar 31, 2010

TheLake said:
or turn into shiek and taunt

That actually gave me an idea earlier and I've been doing a bit of research.

If Jigglypuff misses a rest, you could turn into Sheik and get an fully charged upsmash.

249 frames of rest
-69 frames of Zelda's transformation
-14 frames of Sheik's up smash
-x, where x is the number of frames a charging Smash animation lasts
=166-x frames of room to transform and up smash as Sheik

You'll normally have plenty of time to transform back into Zelda. You might even have enough time to charge your needles as Sheik. When you lose a stock as Zelda, you can keep your charged needles on the next stock to get a free 16% damage later.

KO percents for Killing a Jigglypuff with Sheik's usmash on certain stages (this ignores stale moves and DI):

Stage: % needed for fully charge - % needed for no charge
Corneria: 57%-83%
Yoshi's Story: 59%-84%
Pokemon Stadium: 62%-86%
Final Destination: 63%-90%
Fountain of Dreams: 67%-94%
BattleField: 67%-93%
Mute City: 67%-93%
Brinstar: 68%-95%
Kongo Jungle 64: 75%-104%
Jungle Japes: 76%-104%
DreamLand64: 77%-107%

This is all theory, though. I've yet to test any of this on a player yet...

It might be safer and faster and better to just kick if they rested near the edge.

Magus420 · Apr 4, 2010

Yeah, KO-wise unless you're on a top middle platform or in the center of PS/FD (which are very wide but with low ceilings) I'm thinking a push->kick would be about the same or slightly better, and a f-smash would be a little better than the kick. IIRC the u-smash KOs at like 70% with DI on FD.

TheManaLord · Apr 4, 2010

Hey Magus I'm interested in data on Zelda's chaingrab against fox and falco (and falcon if it works). Is it legit? I can cg CPU consistently but v people well I don't really grab much and haven't had opportunity in a while.

Cosmo! · Apr 8, 2010

the only problem is when they DI behind

yea I'd like to know %s and **** too

btw waveland to plat -> dtilt poke -> utilt is too good

SuperMatt · Apr 8, 2010

this thread is hilarious

you guys make it so hard on yourselves by not playing sheik

and yet you're trying to make it easier on yourselves by figuring out good combos

nevertheless i like the idea of low tiers and i will main game and watch now

aka.carpet003 · Apr 8, 2010

I've been playing a fox recently that doesn't do anything except run around and roll and wavedash and i can't keep up with him. any tips? downsmash works and i can stop the fox illusion, but yeah, generally he's too fast for me to hit him

ALSO: nayru's love. how useful is it? where, when and how should i use it? i don't think io use it enough if at all!

Cosmo! · Apr 8, 2010

magus, animated avatar, how to?

EPsilon933 · Apr 8, 2010

Cosmo! said:
magus, animated avatar, how to?

I want one too.

Also, that's the funniest animated gif I've ever seen.

Also, I'm stealing your avatar temporarily. It's too good. plz?

GKInfinity · Apr 9, 2010

aka.carpet003 said:
I've been playing a fox recently that doesn't do anything except run around and roll and wavedash and i can't keep up with him. any tips? downsmash works and i can stop the fox illusion, but yeah, generally he's too fast for me to hit him

ALSO: nayru's love. how useful is it? where, when and how should i use it? i don't think io use it enough if at all!

Yeah, fox is a lot faster than zelda which is why it's a really hard matchup. Just try to get random hits. Mix your game up a lot and use random movements so you're harder to read. Eventually (if you do it right) he'll mess up his spacing and you'll get a chance to combo him. The key to beating fox is to get him off the stage and just make sure he doesn't get back on. If tries recovering straight to the edge- dsmash. If he recovers slightly above the edge, nayrus (which answers your other question), fsmash, or kick. Jab -> dsmash can be good if he recovers using sideB as well. And if he recovers quite a bit above the edge, it's usually just best to go for a kick. Nayru's can be randomly used to throw off your opponent as well. It's not a bad move since it hits on both sides of zelda at a medium height, but if you miss with it you may get punished because of it's ending lag.

I've found nayru's to be pretty good when playing against ICs as well; it's pretty useful for separating popo and nana. It also reflects projectiles (as you should know) so it can be useful against falcos/foxes spamming lasers at a safe distance, missiles/charged shots from samus, and turnips from peach. I can't tell you how many kills I've gotten from reflecting stitch faces that peach players throw at me by using nayru's. One thing to note though is that nayru's will not reflect all projectiles. As I recall it will destroy Docs pills but will not reflect them (and there are probably other projectiles that won't get reflected either). Maybe someone else can chip in with a list of projectiles that nayru's won't reflect...

EPsilon933 · Apr 9, 2010

GKInfinity said:
One thing to note though is that nayru's will not reflect all projectiles. As I recall it will destroy Docs pills but will not reflect them (and there are probably other projectiles that won't get reflected either). Maybe someone else can chip in with a list of projectiles that nayru's won't reflect...

I've tested Doctor Mario's, and I can't destroy them. I never have as far as I can remember.

Nayru's Love can reflect:
Doctor Mario's pill
Mario's fire ball
Luigi's fire ball
Bowser's flame breath
Peach's turnips
Falco's laser
Fox's laser
Ice Climbers' ice blocks, only one. If two try to hit you, they will collide and cancel out
Kirby's up-b
Samus's blaster and missile
Link's boomerang/bow
Young Link's boomerang
Pichu's/Pikachu's thundershock and thunder
Mr. Game & Watch's bacon

-Mewtwo's down-b can be reflected, but he will almost never stay stunned since the last hit of Nayru's Love will always hit him. It seems Mewtwo's down-b has less reach than the last hit of Nayru's Love

-Zelda's Din's Fire will pass right through you
-Sheik's needles can be reflected so long as they don't get hit by Nayru's Love's hitboxes. If her hitboxes do hit a needle, it gets destroyed.
-Young Link's bow will go right through Zelda if it gets hit by Nayru's Love's hitboxes. If not, it gets reflected back. Link's can sometime's go through Zelda, but I haven't figured out an exact pattern to it yet...
-Young Link's bombs and sometimes Link's bombs won't be reflected back when they get hit by Nayru's Love's hitboxes.
-Mr. Game & Watch's bucket spill is not a projectile
-Peach's butt bomber won't be reflected even though it's a projectile. I haven't been able to get Peach to bomber Zelda without getting hit by Nayru's Love.

I just tested all of this right now.

TheManaLord · Apr 9, 2010

If he rolls and WD's alot he's probably doing it in some manner of form in which you can predict him. People who roll do it pretty instinctively. Just really watch and analyze the situations he rolls, does he use it to get away from you? To get behind you? Do he always roll away or towards ledges? Does he roll the way he DI's? Things like these you can look for and then punish him when you know the answers!

JesiahTEG · Apr 9, 2010

Blue Zelda's hitbox for her kick is slightly bigger than other Zeldas.

EPsilon933 · Apr 9, 2010

JesiahTEG said:
Blue Zelda's hitbox for her kick is slightly bigger than other Zeldas.

And Daisy's bair is bigger than any of Peach's. Where/how do people learn this stuff?

TheManaLord · Apr 9, 2010

green falcon has way more derp (his collision parameters are HUEG) than the other falcons

and iirc blue zelda has one pixel bigger it could be derp and it moves the hitbox out by one iirc i'll ar it sometime

JesiahTEG · Apr 9, 2010

EPsilon933 said:
And Daisy's bair is bigger than any of Peach's. Where/how do people learn this stuff?

Shush. It is fact.

Impp · Apr 9, 2010

derp?
And Zelda can't reflect Pikachu's (and pichu's) down B.
That's only in Brawl.

Also, people can powershield Din's fire and it'll hit you if your close enough.

Cosmo! · Apr 11, 2010

is dthrow knee REALLY guaranteed on Zelda? I have a theory that if I get grabbed, I have enough time to gauge my percent and the knockback I will receive from the throw to DI accordingly so that I am in between falcon's SH and fulljump knees, giving me barely enough time to escape no matter the %.

maybe this is a pipedream and not a reality, but even if it is not possible, being able to find the optimal DI at any percent would let zelda live a lot longer against 95% of falcon players.

aka.carpet003 · Apr 11, 2010

thanks for the advice! i beat that fox btw! i stopped trying to keep up with it and just kicked a heck of a lot! downsmash i found works a treat

ChivalRuse · Apr 11, 2010

Can't Zelda usually get out of dthrow -> knee with Nayru's Love?

GKInfinity · Apr 11, 2010

Idk. But if you can get out of dthrow->knee with nayru's, couldn't you get out with a kick as well? Regardless, dthrow-> knee seems like it should be escapable

TheManaLord · Apr 11, 2010

dthrow knee is guaranteed on a lot of top tiers but more especially against mid and low tiers. I don't think Zelda of all chars can break it, jiggs barely can and only sometimes, so yea.

Magus420 · Apr 11, 2010

Every character except for Jiggs and Kirby can escape d-throw knee by DIing -30° (starting from the down+away notch go 1/3 towards away) and either teching if you're not really floaty or DJ/wiggle out of tumble -> airdodge in an away direction. The airdodge needs to be in an away direction since you are vulnerable during the startup and moving away during that time is what keeps you out of range.

Ideally, the moment before it connects you'd smash away (wiggling out of tumble only requires a single tap to the side) directly into L/R on the following frame, then quickly switching to survival DI in case you didn't do it right and eat the knee (or they u-aired instead which is inescapable). DJing away into the airdodge is slightly easier but can obviously waste your jump if you mess up and still get hit.

This DI makes d-throw knee fail on a lot of characters that people think it combos on. Even G&W can tech out of it and he's extremely light (less lag on the throw) as well as somewhat floaty. Zelda is one of the few that can't tech it, but unlike Kirby/Jiggs you are guaranteed a very small opening to act before he can get to you when you DI the throw that low.

If it'd put you offstage and he has room to dash into the jump without the jump canceling at the edge though it'd be better to go for inbetween SH and FJ knee height since airdodging wouldn't be an option, and instant DJ knees are slower and harder to combo. On the other hand, if you're right near the edge do the low trajectory since he can run off DJ knee easily but won't be able to dash SH knee to get you far offstage.

TheManaLord · Apr 11, 2010

But Magus is that doable all the time??? Why haven't people done it since forever?? Either way sounds incredible, it's just some of my world shattered. I don't dthrow to anyways it's unreliable xD

Magus420 · Apr 11, 2010

It's not really doable all the time no, since sometimes you will get grabbed unexpectedly and thrown too quickly to get the right DI in time, and others simply because the timing is pretty tight on the dodge itself and you're bound to mess it up sometimes even if you're good at it. A big reason almost nobody has thought of it/does it though is because most people still aren't aware some moves' strongest DI isn't in one of the 8 directions (Sheik's f-air for example should be DI'd like 1/3 inbetween from up+towards to up when I see most say to DI it one way or the other), and even if they do understand DI for odd launch angles it isn't easy to tell that the small angle difference in this case can be just enough to get an airdodge off and avoid it.

Cosmo! · Apr 18, 2010

Hooray just got 2nd at a tournament. Lots of tough opponents

Magus will be delighted to know I won a last-stock, last-hit, last-game match against a Peach by using dtilt shieldpoke -> utilt LOL.

I'm literally 100% convinced Zelda is mid tier now. Slightly worse than samus, better than DK, Luigi, Link, etc. We'll see.

I took a set off Kels in the grand finals and made it to match 4 of 2nd set in grand finals and lost there. I had a chance of taking the entire tournament with Zelda

I didn't use any other characters except 1 sheik ditto that I lost lol against Kels

Zelda feels extremely underrated and underutilized. I feel there's a lot more I can still learn and do, and I'm optimistic to keep playing as Zelda. I would not have gotten 2nd with marth/falco, I would have probably gotten 3rd or 4th

TheLake · Apr 18, 2010

GET EM COSMO!

hoooooold it doooown ;D

TheManaLord · Apr 18, 2010

vids? =)

GKInfinity · Apr 19, 2010

Yeah, there better be some vids from that tourney cosmo... 2nd place is hella legit

Magus420 · Apr 20, 2010

Good **** Cosmo xD

Also, some u-throw stuff on FFers...

See this post instead: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-secret-zelda-strats-discussionzone.266327/page-22#post-20171972

U-Throw (11 dmg)

Throw Lag
Falco .16
Fox .. 16
CF ... 21

Things like regrab or sweetspot dash attack on behind DI and u-smash on away DI for Falco/Fox often require you to react by that 17th or 18th frame in order to be able to reach them in time. A lot of the upper range of other stuff does as well. It's... difficult. CF's are less demanding on reaction time since you couldn't act that soon if you wanted to anyway, but the stuff that still works does have tight timing.

[collapse="Hitstun Chart"]-These are all the damage AFTER the throw

Stun .Damage
--------------------------
34 ... 0-2 (if it were possible)
35 ... 3-7 (if it were possible)
36 ... 8-13
37 .. 14-18
38 .. 19-24
39 .. 25-29
40 .. 30-35
41 .. 36-40
42 .. 41-46
43 .. 47-51
44 .. 52-57
45 .. 58-62
46 .. 63-68
47 .. 69-73
48 .. 74-79
49 .. 80-84
50 .. 85-90
51 .. 91-95
52 .. 96-101
53 . 102-106
54 . 107-112
55 . 113-117
56 . 118-123
57 . 124-128
58 . 129-134
59 . 135-139
60 . 140-145
etc...
[/collapse]

-These are all the damage BEFORE the throw. U-throw does 11% when fresh and is what the ranges are based on. Knockback is based on the damage afterwards, so if it's staled like when you're CGing the ranges will be like 1-4% higher than what's listed.

U-Throw to Regrab
-Falco-
Neutral 0-64
Away .. 0-82
Behind .0-66 [Dash Grab]
-Fox-
Neutral 0-53
Away .. 0-67
Behind .0-60 [Dash Grab]
-CF-
Neutral 0-34
Away .. 0-50
Behind 14-23; 25-33 [Dash Grab]

U-Throw to Dash Attack (sweetspot)
-Falco-
Neutral 0-65
Away .. 0-82
Behind .0-82
-Fox-
Neutral 0-54
Away .. 0-71
Behind .0-71
-CF-
Neutral 0-43
Away .. 0-67
Behind .0-59

U-Throw to U-Smash
-Falco-
Neutral 0-77
Away .. 0-94
Behind .N/A
-Fox-
Neutral 0-66
Away .. 0-82
Behind .N/A
-CF-
Neutral 0-49
Away .. 0-60
Behind .N/A

U-Throw to F-Tilt (sweetspot)
-Falco-
Neutral 0-72 [(0-40 Pivot); (41-72 Pivot or WD); (54-72 Up-Angled)]
Away .. 0-94 [(26-40 Walk); (41-81 Walk or WD); (82-94 WD); (78-94 Up-Angled)]
Behind .N/A
-Fox-
Neutral 0-64 [(0-40 Pivot); (41-64 Pivot or WD); (49-64 Up-Angled)]
Away .. 0-81 [(26-40 Walk); (41-76 Walk or WD); (77-81 WD); (66-81 Up-Angled)]
Behind .N/A
-CF-
Neutral 0-54 [(0-54 Pivot); (45-54 Up-Angled)]
Away .. 0-54 [(34-54 Walk); (45-54 Up-Angled)]
Behind .N/A

U-Throw to Kick
-Falco-
Neutral 0-140+
Away .. 0-140+
Behind .0-140
-Fox-
Neutral 0-140+
Away .. 0-140+
Behind .0-129
-CF-
Neutral 0-140
Away .. 0-134
Behind .0-113

Cosmo! · Apr 20, 2010

holys hit
lol

those %s are better than I expected. I'm definitely going to be working on my chainthrow game.

looks like dash attack is the best move vs falcon after a throw (maybe usmash on non-behind DI?)

also looks like ftilt and usmash are dead end mixups because behind DI always trumps it, though I guess if I react to a forward DI I could use ftilt in some cases.

for a sustained chaingrab, would you say it's better to upthrow and immediately dash backwards in order to catch behind DI, then react if its NOT behind DI and change my dash direction and catch the other DI options? or would it be better to stand there and try to react to the DI before moving

great job magus

Magus420 · Apr 20, 2010

Now that you mention it, yeah I would definitely recommend that if having some trouble getting behind DI reliably by waiting (which is really really hard and in league with reaction time for Mario/Doc/Ganon d-throw CGs on spacies and ICs d-throw on CF).

I booted up AR again to check the details and it takes Zelda 6 frames to reach the horizontal launch/source point for the throw knockback where the distance to reach them on away DI and behind DI would be the same (while the launch angle is straight up at 90° they start from a spot behind her making DIing over her head towards the front easy to follow, and behind her extra hard). As long as you don't take any longer than about 4 or 5 frames into the preemptive dash behind before seeing the DI away you'll still be able to turn around the other way and reach them in time.

the secret zelda strats discussionzone

Smash Master

Rejected by Azua

nerf zelda's dsmash

Smash Legend

Smash Master

Smash Legend

♥

Smash Champion

Rejected by Azua

♥

Smash Master

Smash Hero

nerf zelda's dsmash

Smash Champion

Smash Cadet

nerf zelda's dsmash

♥

Smash Champion

♥

Smash Hero

Smash Master

♥

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Ace

nerf zelda's dsmash

Smash Cadet

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Master

nerf zelda's dsmash

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Smash Master

nerf zelda's dsmash

Smash Master

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