Rematch - A hypothetical remake discussion.

ryuu seika · Dec 16, 2010

Yoshi I'd forgotten about (how could I do that?! What's wrong with me?!) but he kept his colours just fine. Samus maybe but not to that major an extent. Kirby no. From what I've seen, Kirby is always pink and the alternate colour versions are just a minor thing for multiplayer which is pretty much insignificant. Apart from Keeby of course. He's a little more important.

The point with Link was that he had three colour schemes which actually affected gameplay. Adding in purple for no reason at all in SC2 was senseless and out of place.

The Star King · Dec 16, 2010

Samus, not to a major extent? Have you ever played a Metroid game? All of her suits have different abilities necessary to make your way through the game.

I will admit the alternate colors for Kirby aren't TOO significant, though.

3mmanu3lrc · Dec 16, 2010

ruyy_seika said:
The question is: Is adding a darker link costume going to add more to his coolness than it's going to detract from fan appeal?

Then we should take that into vote.
idk, just to see what ppl in the forum think about it.

ryuu seika · Dec 16, 2010

Later ok 3mman?

And I seriously didn't know that about Samus. I've only played 5 minutes or so of the Echos but I watched the entirety of the 3 main Prime games.

Sempiternity · Dec 16, 2010

Nah, bro, Samus's suit colors are very important. Like The Star King said, each suit has a distinct ability and function, exactly like Link's.

3mmanu3lrc · Dec 16, 2010

@ryuu_seika Ok!

Sempiternity said:
Nah, bro, Samus's suit colors are very important. Like The Star King said, each suit has a distinct ability and function, exactly like Link's.

And I'll have to agree with that.

asianaussie · Dec 16, 2010

In one of the GBA Metroid games each consecutive suit was an upgrade, rather than a changeable suit for use in different situations.

3mmanu3lrc · Dec 17, 2010

asianaussie said:
In one of the GBA Metroid games each consecutive suit was an upgrade, rather than a changeable suit for use in different situations.

That's Metroid Fusion...
That's why I said before the stuff about adding Samus the wall jump she does in the Metroid Games.
But ryuu already gave me an answer for that.

ryuu seika · Dec 17, 2010

You could add wall jumps but then you'd have to give them to Mario, Luigi, Pikachu, Link(?), C.Falcon and a large amount of other characters too. You have to be fair about it.

Also noticed the two Dark Samus suits. Surely they could have used a different synonym of evil for currupted Samus?

EDIT: So, back to the party suits?

DMoogle · Dec 17, 2010

Link should be able to turn around with his up-B.

ryuu seika · Dec 17, 2010

Seems like a reasonable idea. We could balance that out by adding in "dizzyness" lag whn it stales like in Spirit Tracks if you think that'd be fitting.

Editing in a list of what we have so far to post 1 now. List isn't all that great now bu I hope to get it well organise with everything in it later.

Fireblaster · Dec 17, 2010

ryuu seika said:
Seems like a reasonable idea. We could balance that out by adding in "dizzyness" lag whn it stales like in Spirit Tracks if you think that'd be fitting.

Editing in a list of what we have so far to post 1 now. List isn't all that great now bu I hope to get it well organise with everything in it later.

What the hell are you smoking? There's no need to balance that. Link should be able to turn around in his upB, period.

ryuu seika · Dec 17, 2010

Fine by me.

Sempiternity · Dec 18, 2010

Samus needs to be able to turn around, too.

Definitely. That would bump her recovery up several notches, what with that killer sweet-spot.

The Star King · Dec 18, 2010

She can already turn around with the charge shot, though. If you do a midair jump + charge shot she barely loses any height at all.

ryuu seika · Dec 18, 2010

Samus turning seems slightly more forced due to the fact that she spins vertically(?) rather than horizontally(?) but it would be doable.

Sempiternity · Dec 18, 2010

All you would need was slight forward movement in the stick. It's basically how you turn around with every other character. Same button input.

And true, Samus can turn around, but it's horribly impractical because she's never that far from the ledge unless she was just hit, and in that case, she's already facing the ledge. It would just be nice for the same reason Link's would be nice. Easier to edgeguard because you don't have to worry about falling to your death as much, and you can use the charge shot to gain horizontal distance (firing away from the stage).

And the charge shot definitely does kill your distance, provided you don't jump. And having to use a jump to use any sort of recovery-aid is kind of a waste (i.e. bomb recovery).

YES I KNOW FAIRS GAIN MORE HORIZONTAL DISTANCE; AERIAL A ATTACKS DON'T COUNT

ryuu seika · Dec 18, 2010

Name:Link
Stage: Hyrule Castle
Costumes:
P1 - Kokiri Shirt
P2 - Goron Tunic
P3 - Zora Tunic
P4 - White Costume or Dark Costume (neither is related to original games, something related would be better)
Party - Fierce Deity(?)
Specials
^B - Spin Slash (Works like before, only gaining height if used ariely, but has an option to end facing the other way)
0B - Boomerang (Works as before)
vB - Bomb (Works as before)
Air Moves
^a - Upward Thrust (Works as before)
0a - Split Kick (Works as before)
<a - Backward Twin Spin Kick (Works as before)
>a - Twirling Slash (Works as before)
va - Ground Stab (Works as before)
Ground Moves
^a - Overhead Slash (Works as before)
0a - Triple Hit Combo (Works as before)
</>a - Front Slash (Works as before)
va - Low Slash (Works as before)
^A - Twin Overhead Slash (Works as before)
</>A - Ground Strike (Works as before)
vA - Double Low Slash (Works as before)
>>A - Forward Thrust (Works as before)
Throws
[R] - Grab/Hookshot Grab (Hookshot works as before but is either optional or range based)
>R - Front Kick (Works as before)
<R - Back Kick (Works as before)
Ledge Moves
0 - Vertical Slash (Works as before)
Miscellaneous Fixes
None

3mmanu3lrc · Dec 18, 2010

Sempiternity said:
Samus needs to be able to turn around, too.

Definitely. That would bump her recovery up several notches, what with that killer sweet-spot.

I don't like that idea, imo samus UpB is fine the way it is, no need to fix anything about it.

ryuu seika · Dec 18, 2010

Yeah, I'm not sure on turning round when spinning vertically(?). It doesn't really make sense.

ballin4life · Dec 18, 2010

It makes way more sense than being able to jump when you're already in the air.

ryuu seika · Dec 18, 2010

Name: Mario
Stage: Peach's Castle
Costumes:
P1 - Plumber Outfit
P2 - Wario Costume
P3 - Brown and White Outfit
P4 - Colour Swapped P1
Party - Rainbow Mario(?)
Specials
^B - Uppercut (Works as before)
0B - Mario Fireball (Works as before)
vB - Mario Tornado (Works as before)
Air Moves
^a - Backflip Kick (Works as before)
0a - Basic Kick (Works as before)
<a - Back Kick & Flip (Works as before)
>a - Forward Drill Kick (Works as before)
va - Downward Drill Kick (Works as before)
Ground Moves
^a - Spinning Uppercut (Works as before)
0a - Punch Punch Kick (Works as before)
</>a - Spin Kick (Works as before)
va - Low Spin Kick (Works as before)
^A - Headbutt (Works as before)
</>A - Strong Punch (Works as before)
vA - Handplant Spin Kick (Works as before)
>>A - Slide Kick (Works as before)
Throws
[R] - Grab (Works as before)
>R - Spin Throw (Works as before)
<R - Backward Whirlwind Throw (Works as before)
Ledge Moves
0 - Recovery Kick (Works as before)
Miscellaneous Fixes
None

Battlecow · Dec 19, 2010

Seems good to me, both of them.

I think letting sammy turn around wouldn't kill it... Realism has never mattered one whit in any of these games, and the charge shot thing does sometimes become impractical or get you 'guarded.

ryuu seika · Dec 20, 2010

Well, I guess more are for it than against. What the hell, lets go for it.

Name: Samus
Stage: Planet Zebes
Costumes:
P1 - Varia Suit
P2 - Gravity Suit
P3 - Dark Suit (NOT dark samus)
P4 - Power Suit
Party - (?)
Specials
^B - Spin Attack (Works like before but has an option to end facing the other way)
0B - Charge Shot (Works as before)
vB - Morph Bomb (Works as before)
Air Moves
^a - Upward Drill Kick (Works as before)
0a - High Kick (Works as before)
<a - Backward Spin Kick (Works as before)
>a - Fire Cannon (Works as before)
va - Vertical Kick Flip (Works as before)
Ground Moves
^a - Overhead Kick (Works as before)
0a - Two Hit Combo (Works as before)
</>a - Spin Kick (Works as before)
va - Low Spin Kick (Works as before)
^A - Overhead Fire Cannon (Works as before)
</>A - Cannon Punch (Works as before)
vA - Low Spin Kick (Works as before)
>>A - Ramming Attack (Works as before)
Throws
[R] - Grab/Electro Grapple (Electro Grapple works as before but is either optional or range based)
>R - Forward Whip Fling (Works as before)
<R - Backward Whip Fling (Works as before)
Ledge Moves
0 - Recovery Kick (Works as before)
Miscellaneous Fixes
None

Battlecow · Dec 21, 2010

How about reducing the post-KO invincibility window- say, cutting it in half? Many's the time that I've been in, say, a dreamland Doug ditto where me and the other guy have more or less swapped stocks back and forth because of how long that thing is. Cutting it in half would let you get down and situated, but you couldn't, say, charge almost an entire giant punch, or hunt down your vulnerable opponent.

ballin4life · Dec 21, 2010

Uh, it's all about learning to run away successfully from the invincible character. Or just do the Superboom trick and hang out on the ledge where you get some invincibility too.

3mmanu3lrc · Dec 22, 2010

Yeah, I don't think that'd be a good idea.
I agree with ballin4life.

ryuu seika · Dec 22, 2010

I too agree that this is a bad idea. The invincibility is supposed to allow for an unpunishable hit or two if the opponent can't deal with it. The time is just fine as is and it is simply that you lack the ability to avoid your invincible opponent.

Feel free to suggest complete or partial movesets for new characters by the way.

ryuu seika · Dec 25, 2010

Name: Bowser
Stage: Undecided (His arena from SM64 maybe)
Costumes:
P1 - Regular
P2 - Red Shell Recolour
P3 - Blue Shell Recolour
P4 - Baby Bowser Colours (?)
Party - SM64 Rainbow Bowser (?)
Specials
^B - Shell Spin (Works like in Melee, maybe some changes)
0B - Fire Breath (Works exactly like the SSB64 fire flower)
vB - Ground Pound (Works like in Melee)
Air Moves
^a - (?)
0a - (?)
<a - (?)
>a - (?)
va - (?)
Ground Moves
^a - (?)
0a - (?)
</>a - (?)
va - (?)
^A - (?)
</>A - (?)
vA - (?)
>>A - (?)
Throws
[R] - (?)
>R - (?)
<R - (?)
Ledge Moves
0 - (?)
Miscellaneous Stuff
None

ryuu seika · Jan 4, 2011

All the existing character movelists have been edited into this topic, though changes are still suggestable and many costumes suggestions are required.

This does however, mean we can now move on to the newcomers.
As you can see in the above post, Bowser is probably the first to be discussed, although out of order discussion is by no means unwelcome. Bowser isn't exactly new and, as you can see, he will have no original specials. I will not tolerate a total copy and paste of his Melee moves though. His moveset must look like an early version of his later ones. Just as the SSB64 characters changed for Melee, Bowser must change for 64.

Supreme Dirt · Jan 4, 2011

What an interesting thread to keep an eye on.

3mmanu3lrc · Jan 5, 2011

ryuu seika said:
All the existing character movelists have been edited into this topic, though changes are still suggestable and many costumes suggestions are required.

This does however, mean we can now move on to the newcomers.
As you can see in the above post, Bowser is probably the first to be discussed, although out of order discussion is by no means unwelcome. Bowser isn't exactly new and, as you can see, he will have no original specials. I will not tolerate a total copy and paste of his Melee moves though. His moveset must look like an early version of his later ones. Just as the SSB64 characters changed for Melee, Bowser must change for 64.

Yes, but we could look at Melee as a point of reference...

I hate Melee by the way, the exact copy and paste of it would be like making me never play that character.

ryuu seika · Jan 5, 2011

Melee is definitely a point of reference, just not something that should be straight up copy pasted.

I would prefer it if you refrained from using spoiler tags in my topic as I cannot view the contents for some reason.

EDIT: never mind, the latest version of my other browser can handle this site properly now. It's sad that you hate Melee but I hate Brawl so I guess we all have games we dislike in the series. As long as we can all agree on liking 64 that's all that matters for this topic.

3mmanu3lrc · Jan 5, 2011

yeah! actually Melee and Brawl are kind of the same **** for me, even when I know they're ovbiously not.
but as bad as they are to me there're still some good thing we could take out of them.

ryuu seika · Jan 5, 2011

3mmanu3lrc said:
but as bad as they are to me there're still some good thing we could take out of them.

Agreed. I can't remember what your stance on it was and it was eventually discarded as an unpopular suggestion but I still think that what they did to Yoshi's UpB in Brawl was brilliant.

Battlecow · Jan 5, 2011

fireflower breath would be O to the P. once someone gets caught in a fireflower, they're in for a ****load of damage- and it's not exactly hard to hit with. I'd recommend some start-up lag or else a little range reduction.

3mmanu3lrc · Jan 6, 2011

What about adding Zero from Megaman X-5, the move set of that Zero are the best for any other Zero in a Megama video game ever...
Or Megaman game's characters are not beeing counted for this.?

ryuu seika · Jan 6, 2011

Battlecow said:
fireflower breath would be O to the P. once someone gets caught in a fireflower, they're in for a ****load of damage- and it's not exactly hard to hit with. I'd recommend some start-up lag or else a little range reduction.

Does the fireflower not lose range over time in SSB64? That may indeed need some working around then.

3mmanu3lrc said:
What about adding Zero from Megaman X-5, the move set of that Zero are the best for any other Zero in a Megama video game ever...
Or Megaman game's characters are not beeing counted for this.?

Technically that incarnation is just about within the window of time allowed and he did previously appear on Nintendo consoles as far back as the SNES so I see no reason for him to be disallowed as such.
I do not like the idea of using a specific incarnation of a character though and would say that, while his moveset could be heavily based on that version, his default costume must be from a pre-gamecube nintendo game (alts may vary) and that his moveset shouldn't be based entirely on non-nintendo games.

3mmanu3lrc · Jan 6, 2011

Pretty reasonable!
imo, that'd be a really good character for a remake.

ryuu seika · Jan 6, 2011

Well I'll add him to the list but he could probably do with more than one supporter.

Also, I've changed my mind on Banjo. Seeing as this is all hypothetical, I guess he's allowable and he'd definitely be worth it.

And I'm calling this "Super Smash Bros. Rematch" unless anyone has any better ideas.

Rematch - A hypothetical remake discussion.

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