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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
Mr.-0
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2008
- Messages
- 986
The MBR's definiton said that it was a ranking of the characters based on tourny results. They probably told you that, right? If not, then I don't know why they added that.
Pi
Smash Hero
lol this thread & discussion are stupid
i just want you all to be aware of my opinion on this thread and discussion
it is that they are stupid
in case you missed it
i just want you all to be aware of my opinion on this thread and discussion
it is that they are stupid
in case you missed it
Shelter From The Storm
Banned via Administration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwDHs6UXgR8
Imagine this potential being extrapolated on a normal basis.
Fox at top levels of play has an extremely steep learning curve. This sort of technical ability is hard to obtain, but if extracted, Fox can easily maintain best status in Melee.
Freestylin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2009
- Messages
- 86
he is the best, if he doesnt win, blame the players...
u cannot make a tier list based on wins, or looses... cuz that woudnt measure the characters potential, but the player's ability to control them, right?
tournament results dont matter, at least not for a tier list...
Tourney results are facts you can use for a player's ranking for instance:
-peepee
-armada
-hbox
or sumthing like that....
the fact that Peepee has been winning lately doesnt mean falco is better now, falco has been able to do what he does since the game came out back in 01'... there was just no pee pee to exploit him...
A Tier list shouldnt change at all, no 2008 and 2011 lists, cuz the characters are the same since the game came out...
measure character potential and you will have a list that will stay forever, a Tier list.
that been said, fox is most definitely the best character in SSBM.
-Freestylin
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,861
Very dumb post. You didn't make any argument as to why he is the best; further more your entire logic is circular.
The difference between your Peepee/falco is the best analogy and my tourney results/fox is not the best argument is that Falco being the best would be based off of a single player. 1 player does not define the metagame, especially not within the pass few months. I'm looking at the entire smash community and concluding that fox isn't the best because people can't win national tourneys with him, in fact there is only one Fox who seems to be capable of placing even top 5 with him at tourneys.
And again, Fox's sub-par performance isn't something recent, it's been happening since before the Ken era. Marth, Falco, Jiggilypuff, even Ice Climbers would win national tournaments, but not Fox. Common sense dictates that it's not a coincidence that the character can't keep up, there must be something lacking with the character itself.
Also your statement that a tier list should never change is idiocy. The tier list is reflective of the metagame, and since the metagame changes the tier list would to change accordingly. Tournament results, and not isolated cases, I'm talking about the entirety of tourney results, have to matter tier list because it is the most objective and most valid measure of a characters' metagame.
Pi
Smash Hero
tier list != character ranking list
a tier list is a representation of tournament results & maybe a little bit of character potential.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Tbqh, a tier list seems pointless if it isn't a measure of a character's potential like Freestylin said. If we are going to base tier lists off of the current metagame and tournament results, we might as well just graph the number of each character placing and see which character places the highest on average.
Obviously I am not suggesting ignoring the limitations of the current metagame (reality is most people CANNOT move like in the Perfect Dark video, especially during games), but I also think it's rather naive to see character potential and simply ignore it because there are no top players currently abusing that part of the character. It's a balancing act. I obviously realize the potential uses of perfectly drillshining and how effective it can be, but at the same time we must consider how feasible it is for human players to properly execute that in a competitive environment.
I think tournament results should be a huge factor in determining a tier list, but to say that because it is the only factor because it is the only objective evidence is illogical. When matchup charts are created, people are quite comfortable working with deep game theory, but it seems like taking that mindset from matchups to the tier list causes issues because people feel like tier rankings should accurately mirror tournament rankings. If all the best Falco players dropped off the face of the planet, you wouldn't just accept someone trying to convince you that Falco is no longer good. The fact that he would no longer place in tournament at all is irrelevant when he has obvious potential to keep up with the top characters. A tournament operates much like evolution where it is survival of the fittest. The problem with that analogy, however, is that when a species evolves there are a huge number of trials. The Melee community isn't large enough to the point that we can reliably tally the characters placing high in national tournaments because we will just end up basing tier lists off of the character choices of the top players. If Melee was a global sport that children grew up with (if only, right?) then basing the tier list off of an abundance of national tournaments with huge numbers of entrants using a much wider variety of characters, basing the tier list off of just tournament placings would not be such a bad idea.
Obviously I am not suggesting ignoring the limitations of the current metagame (reality is most people CANNOT move like in the Perfect Dark video, especially during games), but I also think it's rather naive to see character potential and simply ignore it because there are no top players currently abusing that part of the character. It's a balancing act. I obviously realize the potential uses of perfectly drillshining and how effective it can be, but at the same time we must consider how feasible it is for human players to properly execute that in a competitive environment.
I think tournament results should be a huge factor in determining a tier list, but to say that because it is the only factor because it is the only objective evidence is illogical. When matchup charts are created, people are quite comfortable working with deep game theory, but it seems like taking that mindset from matchups to the tier list causes issues because people feel like tier rankings should accurately mirror tournament rankings. If all the best Falco players dropped off the face of the planet, you wouldn't just accept someone trying to convince you that Falco is no longer good. The fact that he would no longer place in tournament at all is irrelevant when he has obvious potential to keep up with the top characters. A tournament operates much like evolution where it is survival of the fittest. The problem with that analogy, however, is that when a species evolves there are a huge number of trials. The Melee community isn't large enough to the point that we can reliably tally the characters placing high in national tournaments because we will just end up basing tier lists off of the character choices of the top players. If Melee was a global sport that children grew up with (if only, right?) then basing the tier list off of an abundance of national tournaments with huge numbers of entrants using a much wider variety of characters, basing the tier list off of just tournament placings would not be such a bad idea.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Why would it be silly to think that?
Quic
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2008
- Messages
- 401
Umm, some of you seem to be forgetting that we 'character potential' isn't really a set thing, we didn't know what everyone was capable of at the last tier list, and we don't now. That's a major contributor to why there's changes in the tier list.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
While the latest tier list was in development, didn't we come to realize how pointless the list is?
We were told outright that there were no set criteria, and the tier list was not based on tournament results. It was just an abstract mess of the BRoomers' opinions. A more accurate and useful list would be the character rankings list, which uses actual tournament data. I know it doesn't carry the shiny title of "Official Tier List", but this topic is no use arguing about anymore; its goals are unclear and it will only yield indecisive results.
We were told outright that there were no set criteria, and the tier list was not based on tournament results. It was just an abstract mess of the BRoomers' opinions. A more accurate and useful list would be the character rankings list, which uses actual tournament data. I know it doesn't carry the shiny title of "Official Tier List", but this topic is no use arguing about anymore; its goals are unclear and it will only yield indecisive results.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
I mean, the tier list is basically an average of was all the MBR members think a 'tier list' would be in there eyes; using whatever criteria those in the MBR decide for their own personal lists. i.e. theory bros, tournament placing, bias, anything really
That being said, they're all very smart and/or good players and understand this game very well, so it has to mean something
That being said, they're all very smart and/or good players and understand this game very well, so it has to mean something
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
But it has to mean something according to some criterion. If the list is based off different criteria between each person, then the information technically doesn't have to mean anything. That's like taking two people, asking each of them for a list of the top 10 baseball players, and having one person base his list off how many home runs players make vs the other person basing his list off how accurate someone's batting is. Then when you take the "average" of the two opinions, it doesn't mean anything, really.
actually it's more accurate to say that you give two people a list of 10 baseball players and ask them to rank them from best to worst, at which point one person lists theirs off how many home runs players makes vs the other basing their list off of how accurate their batting is.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
I agree, that's probably a better way to put it.
Pi
Smash Hero
are you all just now realizing that this list is meaningless when trying to stack characters against other characters as far as how god they are? lol
"A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst
in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting
in the near future
based on recent, relevant tournament results."
quote from the OP
like srsly kids, there is literally nothing to discuss here
"A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst
in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting
in the near future
based on recent, relevant tournament results."
quote from the OP
like srsly kids, there is literally nothing to discuss here
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Yea, I feel it 3...but still. There is absolutely no reason for Roy to be above M2, I dont even think anybody has picked Roy in a tournament recently at all...yea I went there.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
I don't think so.
and I'm probably the best roy
and I'm probably the best roy
I'm going all roy next week at SMYM. look for me in the results
going all roy? So then we should look for you near the bottom right? 
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
probably. I haven't played any serious melee since POE 3going all roy? So then we should look for you near the bottom right?
Matt07
Smash Master
Pfft, its Roy. You got this, top 4, for sure.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
IDK about that, almost all tournaments I've attended over the past 2-3 years I've gotten knocked out by either a samus or peach. both winners and losers
just my luck
Pi
Smash Hero
i give you permission to CP peach & samusIDK about that, almost all tournaments I've attended over the past 2-3 years I've gotten knocked out by either a samus or peach. both winners and losers
just my luck
i'm going roy as much as staying in the tournament will permit if i can make it down to a SFL tourney this coming weekend
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Falco is better than Fox in terms of MUs and human potential, depending on who you ask. From what I gather, it's not really unanimous that Fox is the best character in terms of human potential and all things that go into that incredibly broad category. Also, Falco's results are better.
Let's put him at 3rd though and bump Sheik. That way everyone wins.
Let's put him at 3rd though and bump Sheik. That way everyone wins.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Lol, M2 does aight vs Samus and Peach.IDK about that, almost all tournaments I've attended over the past 2-3 years I've gotten knocked out by either a samus or peach. both winners and losers
just my luck
Either way, I wont wish bad upon thee, so goodluck repping....Roy :/ lol
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
@Ripple you got this... Believe in your character.
Yes that's a threat... ^^ stay Roy man...or Axe and I will pick him up and make you play him <33
<33 you man
Yes that's a threat... ^^ stay Roy man...or Axe and I will pick him up and make you play him <33
<33 you man
hungrybox
Smash Legend
JIGGS IS LIKE FIFTH WOrsT
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,861
Do you believe that Young Link beats Jigs?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Roy is still better than Yoshi.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
haha i dont really like low/mid tier debates as much as i like seeing performances
arizona all the way!!!!!!!!!
anyway
i've been learning the ylink vs fox/falco/marth/sheik matchups. its very hard, but i'm seeing that they are doable!
thanks pound 5 low tier uses for inspiring me even more!!!
arizona all the way!!!!!!!!!
anyway
i've been learning the ylink vs fox/falco/marth/sheik matchups. its very hard, but i'm seeing that they are doable!
thanks pound 5 low tier uses for inspiring me even more!!!
If this is true then by all means. Go for it. As long as you believe in your character, accept his faults, and capitalize on what he does best then you should go far.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
just believe in urself ppl
rhan u gotta believe in roy!
i'll believe in a bowser/pichu player if they believe in themselves too!
vman had a respectable, realistic goal of 'making it out of pools'
so i like him a lot, and know he can make it farther.
rhan u gotta believe in roy!
i'll believe in a bowser/pichu player if they believe in themselves too!
vman had a respectable, realistic goal of 'making it out of pools'
so i like him a lot, and know he can make it farther.
Stevo
Smash Champion
/ kage
Divinokage
Smash Legend
You are wrong, humans have infinite potential!!!! Always moving forward to victory!!!