trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
uhm shine out of shield is great when dealing with spacie pressure, thats a technique i doubt you'll master very quickly
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
Sinji
Smash Master
Iv'e been studing the match up against shiek. I noticed that whenever sheik Di's foxes ugrab you do a reverse bair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aneh5askQ7s&t=0m36s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aneh5askQ7s&t=0m36s
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
buffer roll is good to use sometimes but gets you ***** other times, shine oos is really good to learn.
a good rule of thumb that you shouldnt follow too closely because being predictable sucks is the following:
if the falco hits your shield high with his aerial, shine oos. this gives you a relatively large amount of leeway so it's not as hard to time.
if he hits low, he's probably going to do the second aerial early so you can just roll out because he won't be able to follow you as easily.
a good rule of thumb that you shouldnt follow too closely because being predictable sucks is the following:
if the falco hits your shield high with his aerial, shine oos. this gives you a relatively large amount of leeway so it's not as hard to time.
if he hits low, he's probably going to do the second aerial early so you can just roll out because he won't be able to follow you as easily.
just so i'm totally clear on the technique, shine oos is shield>jump>shine before you leave the ground/just after you leave the ground.
correct?
if so, should i be able to get the shine before i leave the ground? or is it cool if im in the air a little bit?
correct?
if so, should i be able to get the shine before i leave the ground? or is it cool if im in the air a little bit?
JPOBS
Smash Hero
its cool if your in the air a tiny bit, not many players, even great ones, stay grounded.
other options are roll, Upsmashes oos, wavedash oos, jump oos, or.....grab :o
other options are roll, Upsmashes oos, wavedash oos, jump oos, or.....grab :o
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
the ultimate form of Shine OOS involves not leaving the ground, but honestly as long as you hit them it doesn't really matter how high you are off the ground before the shine comes out..
being air'd makes things safer probably, since your not close to them incase you miss,, but grounded gives you more followup time/room to see how they'll react to being shined.
i doubt you'll stay grounded for ages. just learn to jump out of shine and land quickly so you can continue to **** up the flaco/fawks
Sinji
Smash Master
I get ***** when jumping oos. You can either shine oos or roll oos.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
no, he's saying jump because you have to jump out of shield to shine.
can't just do shield > shine
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Buffered rolls and sidesteps, shine oos, and usmash oos are Fox's only options to beat space animal shield pressure. Buffered anything is great, as long as you perform it after your opponent's shine hits your shield. If you block a dair/nair and try to do anything afterwards, you lose.The most rewarding option would be usmash oos and the easiest to perform, buffer roll. Shine oos is that rare combination of both highly effective and not technically demanding. Learn it, love it.
SHINE OOS:
Even the best foxes have trouble doing shine oos (grounded) consistently. There are a few things you can do to sidestep this technical barrier, and continue chasing your opponent after the knockdown to resume pressure. If there are platforms directly above you, waveland in the direction you knocked your opponent and give chase. This is MUCH easier than trying to waveshine oos(hield) on a punish.
Sometimes platforms aren't always available for you to use though, so if you're on flatland you'll have to settle for SH shine oos -> DJ -> fastfall -> chase.
But be careful! If Marth blocks the shine, for example, he can SH fair out of shield and clip your DJ on the way down. Whenever you are unsure about whether the shine will hit or not, DJ backwards out of your shine to avoid retaliation. Again, if platforms are nearby use them to your advantage! The shine oos is less about getting a hit and more about getting you out of really bad situations. If Falco's shine hits during shield pressure, you are taking 50-60% damage off either good or bad combos. That's just how Falco works.
If you manage to shine oos and escape the pressure, don't ALWAYS dive back into the fray immediately. Use that space you've created to distance yourself from the 1 frame combo starter and formulate a plan of attack. This goes for all match-ups IMO. The breathing room really helps stabilize the match, and hands you back a few seconds of control. We all know how vital control is, especially against Falco.
Oh, and shine oos is great near the edge. It punishes everything and knocks your opponent off. **** grab lol
SHINE OOS:
Even the best foxes have trouble doing shine oos (grounded) consistently. There are a few things you can do to sidestep this technical barrier, and continue chasing your opponent after the knockdown to resume pressure. If there are platforms directly above you, waveland in the direction you knocked your opponent and give chase. This is MUCH easier than trying to waveshine oos(hield) on a punish.
Sometimes platforms aren't always available for you to use though, so if you're on flatland you'll have to settle for SH shine oos -> DJ -> fastfall -> chase.
But be careful! If Marth blocks the shine, for example, he can SH fair out of shield and clip your DJ on the way down. Whenever you are unsure about whether the shine will hit or not, DJ backwards out of your shine to avoid retaliation. Again, if platforms are nearby use them to your advantage! The shine oos is less about getting a hit and more about getting you out of really bad situations. If Falco's shine hits during shield pressure, you are taking 50-60% damage off either good or bad combos. That's just how Falco works.
If you manage to shine oos and escape the pressure, don't ALWAYS dive back into the fray immediately. Use that space you've created to distance yourself from the 1 frame combo starter and formulate a plan of attack. This goes for all match-ups IMO. The breathing room really helps stabilize the match, and hands you back a few seconds of control. We all know how vital control is, especially against Falco.
Oh, and shine oos is great near the edge. It punishes everything and knocks your opponent off. **** grab lol
JPOBS
Smash Hero
yo grab is legit don't even hate. (mostly kidding)
but for real i hate it when you shine oos vs a falco and they accidentally tech cuz they were L-cancelling lol pretty much ruins whatever techchase you could have got.
but when im playing as falco, that **** is so cash
but for real i hate it when you shine oos vs a falco and they accidentally tech cuz they were L-cancelling lol pretty much ruins whatever techchase you could have got.
but when im playing as falco, that **** is so cash
weon - X
Smash Ace
raynex advice is the best
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
When they tech the shine oos, the momentum from the initial knockback makes them slide so far away. By the time you land, you can usmash and trade/beat their dair approach, or WD back and punish it. I know what you mean though, it gets frustrating when a clean punish doesn't directly transition into a clean follow-up.yo grab is legit don't even hate. (mostly kidding)
but for real i hate it when you shine oos vs a falco and they accidentally tech cuz they were L-cancelling lol pretty much ruins whatever techchase you could have got.
but when im playing as falco, that **** is so cash
The great weon-x has spoken
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I've seen A LOT of this recently vs mostly everyone.. DJing close to the ledge.. I think this might be a bad habit from a lot of people.. does anyone else do that? Because if you do you'll get punished and die lol.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
kage, close to the edge in what circumstance? like, to escape rpessure when your back is to the ledge, or as a clumsy form of pressure when your opponent is in that position?
also, raynex, very good rundown... my favourite part was that you called it "flatland." been a hot minute since i heard that term
also, raynex, very good rundown... my favourite part was that you called it "flatland." been a hot minute since i heard that term
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I don't know I just see a lot of people do that no matter the circumstance.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
What does everyone think about Upsmashing after taking a laser?
you know falcos like to do laser->laser->approach shenanigans. how do you guys feel about just upsmashing as he's coming in. especially at low percents when a trade isnt so so bad.
inb4 mixups.
you know falcos like to do laser->laser->approach shenanigans. how do you guys feel about just upsmashing as he's coming in. especially at low percents when a trade isnt so so bad.
inb4 mixups.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Great idea if you can get it out fast enough; I'm convinced that if the falco is close enough with the laser and then moves asap afterwards sometimes you can't get out the upsmash which sucks. Trading upsmash with falco's nair/dairs is almost always a great idea
@Kage
I've definitely noticed what you mean; ironically, I notice it most when people play ganon and fox. Idk why ganons do it so much, but its really easy to catch them DJing or jumping OoS or something. Fox... idk hes broken so you can do whatever you want with him
@Kage
I've definitely noticed what you mean; ironically, I notice it most when people play ganon and fox. Idk why ganons do it so much, but its really easy to catch them DJing or jumping OoS or something. Fox... idk hes broken so you can do whatever you want with him
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya.. Opponent's DJs, you punish.. he has no jump.. faceroll edgeguard lol.
unknown522
Some guy
that **** is too risky.
When quebec came down before ROM 3, I played vs Vwins and PKM as falco and they did that crap sometimes. It worked on me like twice, but then every other time they tried it, that basically = -1 stock for them. Even if I just shielded it after the laser, then it was still pretty much -1 stock for them (or assloads of damage).
I think it's fine if you limit how many times you use it, or if you're just facing shiz; because he runs into that **** a lot.
edit:
I left that out too.
yeah, that **** sucks
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Come on Kage, you know only bad players double jump near the edge for no reason. It's such a blatantly bad decision its not worth discussing. It goes without saying that DJs are like low tiers. Good in certain ways, but you can't be using that **** all the time.
Thanks! Its been a hot minute since I've heard hot minute hahakage, close to the edge in what circumstance? like, to escape rpessure when your back is to the ledge, or as a clumsy form of pressure when your opponent is in that position?
also, raynex, very good rundown... my favourite part was that you called it "flatland." been a hot minute since i heard that term
It's great as long as you watch your spacing. The farther away Falco is when he SH dairs, the less likely you are to interrupt it. Missing would also suck.
I'm not going to lie...turning your back, taking the laser, and utilting is arguably better. If only it worked.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya well here in montreal at least and im sure in Toronto too.. all players below us are bad lol. I've actually caught Bam FH with my own FH Fair, it's so good loll. (I'm guessing he wanted to dair or something)
Edit: This is why we need to play each other more.. well.. Jason said he has friday off last week of April.. so do you think we can drop by then for Friday/weekend maybe? That would be sick.
Edit: This is why we need to play each other more.. well.. Jason said he has friday off last week of April.. so do you think we can drop by then for Friday/weekend maybe? That would be sick.
Sinji
Smash Master
Thanks for the advice. I feel more confident about falco's shield pressure.
Palpi
Smash Hero
One of my biggest flaws in my game is how much I DJ...I do it alot less with platforms though...hm
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I double jump ALL THE TIME in doubles.
idk what it is, but doubles makes me jump like hell lol
idk what it is, but doubles makes me jump like hell lol
Palpi
Smash Hero
CAUSE YOU SCURRED!
caps
caps
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Less DJs more Shffls. =D
Sinji
Smash Master
I know that you punish sheik after her up b, but suppose she gets back on the stage without using her up b. What should I do? Any advice?
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
If she airdodges on you can ledge-hop past her and bair. Or you could hit forward on the stick, get up as if you were covering the vanish, and punish normally.
When Sheik is falling from above, and it's clear to you that she can make it back onto the stage without her up+b, GET OFF THE EDGE. Your priority is now to get beneath her. If the Sheik goes anywhere on stage, you'll already be there, and if she tries going back to the edge you can intercept with bair / ftilt / dash attack / fsmash / etc
Pay attention to your opponent's method of recovery and react based on the limited options they have. Essentially, you should have a general idea in your head of how the edge-guard should play out before it happens. That's how big of an advantage grabbing the edge vs. Sheik is.
When Sheik is falling from above, and it's clear to you that she can make it back onto the stage without her up+b, GET OFF THE EDGE. Your priority is now to get beneath her. If the Sheik goes anywhere on stage, you'll already be there, and if she tries going back to the edge you can intercept with bair / ftilt / dash attack / fsmash / etc
Pay attention to your opponent's method of recovery and react based on the limited options they have. Essentially, you should have a general idea in your head of how the edge-guard should play out before it happens. That's how big of an advantage grabbing the edge vs. Sheik is.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
edit- jk thought you said IC's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJHb-8BczTQ i dunno i can't think of many shinehappy fox vs falcon matches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJHb-8BczTQ i dunno i can't think of many shinehappy fox vs falcon matches.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Why would you shine when you can just nair?
Faster and also ungrabable? But maybe nair shine is better in some way to put more pressure in? Wants to really learn how to pressure a Falcon so that runnaway strategies wont work as well as it has until now against me :/
But yea I guess I meant "heavy pressure" or something more like that, watching the lovage vs s2j set currently.
But yea I guess I meant "heavy pressure" or something more like that, watching the lovage vs s2j set currently.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
the more i play fox vs falcon, the more i realize that shine is one of the more dangerous moves in the match-up. I find that the best strategy is to space with nair (as in, hit with your tippy toes) and bair any approach falcon does.
Yea, I´ve noticed that alot of foxes get grabbed imidieatly after they miss a shine, but double shine (or shine, jump shine) should make that avoidable and still a beneficial situation due to the high pressure =)
Also, how does shine upsmash work, is it allways guarantied?
Also shine wd after jab?
Also, how does shine upsmash work, is it allways guarantied?
Also shine wd after jab?
Sinji
Smash Master
Im still unsure about the shine> upsmash with one frame. Any advice?
Lovage
Smash Hero
nair shine isn't that good against falcon cuz he can jump over ur shine and stomp oos.
it's good in certain situations so your best bet is to mix it in sparingly with your nair -> crossup bair shield pressure
though the whole goal of this fanciness is to stay mobile enough to space urself outside of grab range, space urself so you have time to react to an aerial OOS, and space urself so you can react to a roll (you don't gotta punish him directly out of his roll, forcing him in his shield again is good enuff, by this point he'll probably make a mistake and you can hit him)
sinji post LOOOOOOOOOOL
it's good in certain situations so your best bet is to mix it in sparingly with your nair -> crossup bair shield pressure
though the whole goal of this fanciness is to stay mobile enough to space urself outside of grab range, space urself so you have time to react to an aerial OOS, and space urself so you can react to a roll (you don't gotta punish him directly out of his roll, forcing him in his shield again is good enuff, by this point he'll probably make a mistake and you can hit him)
ya it works if u do it right, use it when they miss a tech and are far enough away that you have to do a full dash to get to them, this is more likely to happen after you use WEIRD MOVES like ftilt, weak bair, weak nair etc. cuz they're harder to tech for noob players
sinji post LOOOOOOOOOOL
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
sinji you need to make your posts more.... detailed or something. you're "unsure about shine upsmash with one frame"[not too sure what you mean by that also], but you're not telling us what you want advice for at all
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Uh I think waveshine jab is an awful choice if you're going for consistency with punishes and its more one of those flashy/ineffective things that used to be done back when people got ***** by waveshine-->jab a lot =P
I mean, reverse uptilt, upsmash, grab (if you can get a nair afterwards), nair even are all better than jab if you're going for punishes in pretty much any situation
I mean, reverse uptilt, upsmash, grab (if you can get a nair afterwards), nair even are all better than jab if you're going for punishes in pretty much any situation