the TKD thread

Wait now im confused X_X.
What I meant was can we buffer out of the grab release animation we do for the 30 frames?

Let's make this easier:
What's the input for this air regrab? Is it:

Grab pummel-> air release-> at 30 frames do a SCSG and buffer the pummel?




Sorry for me being a dummy when it comes to all this. The only grab release I had to worry about for the longest time was a simple dair after grab on wario with falco <___<

Ideally:

Frames after air release: button press (action)

1-30: immobile
slightly before 31: tap forward
31-40: initial dash
41: run
42: release control stick and press shield (shield comes out)
43: press attack (shield cancels into grab as fast as possible)
43-47: grab startup
44-48: release and re-press attack
48: grab connects
49: buffered pummel comes out, forcing the air release

i say slightly before 31 because buffering dashes is weird and sometimes only a walk will come out
i cant use frame advance to check how lenient the timing is, for that and for the whole skid-shield-grab deal

That's fine. You did more than enough with that super detailed play-by-play. Much appreciated though ^_^.

I really want to try to have it perfected by KTAR if I can(I'm pretty busy this upcoming week). If not I still got the upsmash and regular regrab at least.

what's the regular regrab? just a normal dash grab?

What do you mean "regrab"? Air break to skid grab connects on MK, if that's what you mean. In FD, Fox can air break MK until getting close to the ledge and usmash him.

The data is wrong.
1-19: nothing
20~30: tap & release forward <- this is the command for a buffered dash
**hold forward again after buffering the dash. this is the command to continue dashing**
31-40: initial dash
41: run
42: release control stick and press shield (shield comes out)
43: press attack (shield cancels into grab as fast as possible)
43-48: grab startup
49: grab connects, press A if you want to force another air break

Just wait for release, buffer dash, continue dashing, skid grab MK when it'll reach.

You really don't need to do this. I don't even know how difficult it is. I do it to practice skid grabbing. If you want to force air breaks, learn to pummel ASAP. If you grabbed MK out of the air, his feet will dangle while held.

Anyway you're really, really late on learning buffers, mav. Start by trying to buffer forward dash out of dthrow and nair every time. Buffering back dash is more difficult: you can't let go of the control stick. You must move your finger back so it doesn't spring over.

Re-grab=regular dash grab, but anyway:

I never learned how to dash buffer right >_>; the only sort of dash buffer I learned was for BDACUS with falco, and that's a dash attack buffer.

tkd, what i wrote is the fastest, frame-perfect way to skid grab, and if you press those buttons on those frames you are guaranteed to grab and force an air release when mk breaks

im pretty sure its not completely necessary to do exactly what i wrote to force the regrab, but thats just the fastest way to

So I was messing around today and was testing out more ways to Auto-cancel Dair. I've known of the first three ways to do it for a while, the fourth surprised me how well it worked.

• Full Hop->Dair(onto a platform)
• Full Hop->Dair(to the ground)
• Ledge Drop->Jump->Dair(on stage)
• Short Hop->Dair(drifting down an incline)

I first tried it on Halberd's flying segment, I short hopped at the top of the ramp, dair'd, and drifted to the center. It worked out and the Dair was lag-less.

After messing around with other stages, I decided to go to Yoshi's Island remembering it too had inclines. At first I thought that it was too small of a drop for it to work, after a short time though I found that it actually is possible! I just wasn't buffering the dair from the jump.

But yeah, you can really tell a difference between Auto-canceled and lagged Dairs.

Any one tried seeing if reverse usmash is safe on shield?

@kuares: wow, thats really cool, fox probably gets a pretty nice frame advantage on shield, or at least a small enough disadvantage to be able to interrupt a grab attempt with jab

@iblis: in what situation? running through your shielding opponent and reverse usmashing the back of their shield?

Also, ignore the whole skid canceling stuff above, you can force a re air release with a regular old boost grab lol
it just might be possiible with only a dash grab, actually
but that would require frame-perfect timing to get there fast enough

No using the ending hitbox infront of them so you have less lag since they are in hitstun closer to the end of the move.

Mk26 is right. It makes things less annoying tbh. Less inputs xD.

PS I never got why fox's boost pivot grab gives him such an absurd slide while the regular boost grab doesn't :3


Sadly though, this is pretty situational since its so hard to grab mk. If he's in a position where the grab will work he's probably going to be doing an aerial that outranges your grab, or air dodging.

@iblis: just checked, nope, not a chance
brawl doesnt have anywhere near the shieldstun required for that to work

incidentally if fox air releases from a grab onto flat ground he has fewer frames of lag (maybe only 1 fewer) than whoever grabbed him

@mav: im actually getting it semi-consitstently with either skid-canceled grabs or simple running shieldgrabs, i cant tell which

it might be situational, but one possible 'setup' if you get it down and are facing an unaware opponent could be waiting (read: hoping) for the jump break on a grab where it isnt forced, and then regrabbing and forcing the air release on subsequent grabs

but i do realize that this isnt going to be something thats pulled off commonly

Thanks for seeing for me.

Most grabs you'll get off of MK will most likely be while he is grounded :-/ Still would be **** to pull off though in a match.

What have you guys been able to come with in trapping with Fox? What I've gotten is Full Jump Dair (opponent airdodges through) you land before/with them you still have frame advantage do to ACing the Dair, also Uair to nair if they AD through the Uair.

one thing i found but forgot to mention is that if, on yoshi's, you autocancel a dair with the last hit hitting an mk, training mode considers the follow-up usmash to combo starting at 44% before the dair

i played anuar, richbrown and tyrant on saturday and noticed some things:

- olimar: it's very easy, and very quick to refresh your whole moveset thanks to blastering tossed pikmin. so you can ready your utilt to KO even after failing to KO with one. i find utilt good to get pikmin off of fox's head, and nair for everything else. shine -may- work, but i'm not sure. i remember it taking pikmin off with 1 hit, but i didn't try it that day. what's for sure is that shine doesn't work on or damage yellows. it's easy to jump away from olimar because of his (lack of) speed. nair hits through oli's usmash, and as long as it's spaced so his usmash can't reach you, it's safe on block. dair does the same but beats uair too. my game plan on oli is a mixture of trying to camp and to approach him. i like to full hop or drop from platforms up to him. if he's not moving into you or committing, you can air-jump away. if you want to check, you can shine before that to suspend yourself.

watching the pikmin that are next in line for olimar is very, very useful. blues and purples can kill with throws. purples are a dangerous fsmash, and a different, easier to block pikmin toss. white ones are a very, very dangerous pikmin toss, but they're so weak at everything else that you can approach olimar easily if one is next, and they're easy to get off of you (anything will kill them off; they have 1hp). yellows are immune to shine.

pikmin colors have more characteristics, but are less important. some of those are: hps in order - white<red/yellow<blue<purple. white has a larger grab range, while purple has a very small one. color spawn rate is different in each stage. yellow's sour-spot dair seems to have extremely powerful horizontal knockback (i see it kill MK at 90 way often).

- meta knight: you can't evade him by jumping. the only way this strategy will work is if he also jumps too much. the best here is pressing forward with walk block and dash block. you can nair/uair/fair/bair him if he jumps, or shield-grab his tilts. you can grab him before he grabs you. stuff like that. you just need the balls to approach! also, try to KO him with usmash asap. get used to usmashing him from dair, dsmash isn't worth it (unless it'll kill). learn all the ways to usmash him. letting him tank is no good.

are yellows immune to being reflected by shine as well as being knocked off by it?

do any pikmin that latch on take 2 shines to knock off instead of just 1?

hey TKD was Anuar playing Oli in singles that day? Didnt get a chance to see him play. Anyways i gotta pick up Fox. Your Fox is too good.

Quick questions: for MK's tilts, if hes mixing them up what do you do? like ftilt 1> dtilt, and any variants of. And what are the main scenarios we should all be looking at when looking for that usmash kill vs MK?

If you're interested in thee Fox vs Olimar match-up there are a couple of videos of Yui vs Brood and Yui vs Nietono on youtube. Interesting how Yui consistently beats Brood but always loses to Nietono.

Bam, usmash whiffed attacks works best for kills, or landing nair or dair and following up for dair. Right now I'm working on a project to see everymove in the game and how to punish it with fox. Its stickied in the boards if you'd like to take a look. Against ftilt and dtilt variants thing I can't really answer it well.

Also welcome to the fox boards

Shine works good for pikmin too. And as you mentioned uptilt. Usually I'll shine if I get hit with pikmin in the air and uptilt if Im hit on the ground.

@M@v: Shine works fine only against white pikmin toss since they may be the only ones that usually travel back far enough (except maybe Yellows? maybe their high arc resets when shined). Shine won't get Pikmin off of Fox's ears. That's pretty funny.

You can't jump from reflecting Pikmin Toss. That's the depressing part, and why I don't shine them ever. But yeah; I haven't tried shine on whites and yellows.

@Gheb: That doesn't -sound- interesting, since Nietono is better.

@B.A.M.: Yeah, actually. Anuar double-mained Oli/MK. I only saw him main MK on Rich.

vs MK's tilts
- when fox walkblocks or dashblocks, he slides a lot from his momentum. so if you walk or dash into MK's tilt range (obviously there are more chances for the walk) and block a tilt, you can shield-grab his hand.
- to usmash MK's tilts, you can walk/dash into him and block for the instant you predict being dtilted (the best is to predict near max range since your opponent wants that), and usmash his hand. This is almost frame-perfect stuff, so you need something close to buffering it out of shield-stun. The ftilt is easier. Most MK don't go into ftilt2 from ftilt1 if it didn't connect, so you can usmash the first hit.
- a useful way to react to mk's tilts with an usmash may be to usmash from block no matter what touches your shield. i haven't tried this, but if it works vs dtilt, i'm set.
- another way to usmash an MK that wants to tilt you is surprise him by short hopping into him over the attack and landing a dair.

@ Gheb: LOL yeah dude Brood isnt there best Oli in case you didnt know. Its Nietono. So its definitely not surprising.

@TKD: Im definitely going to work on that. i should walk block more. I wish Mike had put up some vids of you vs MK. I love how you do the match up.

Fox can jump out of shine when hit with pikmin. Works against any projectile in the game.

stop trolling, rizk.

It's ALIIVEEEE!

LOL it works. Walk up to mk, block ANYTHING, immediately usmash. If it's dtilt or ftilt, he's dead.
Another thing that works is walk...dashusmash! Even as he's landing or as he's in the air.
I also like that when both chars block, each player usually wants to land a shield-grab first. So what you can do is usmash preemptively to counter their shield-grab/nair/upb from block, whatever they wanted to do. Your usmash should be inputed earlier because it has slower start-up, but it's good.
Dair to usmash is as good as ever. Forget dair to dsmash for consistency on MK! If usmash can kill and dsmash can't, you should try the usmash.

About anti-air, I like all aerials: fair, uair, nair, bair, even dair (full hop, catch him sideways with it, and fast-fall with him). Nair is the best when you're sure you need speed.

Frame data on MK SH fair:
Buffered from SH into a shield
1-4 jump startup
5-17 fair
18 shield-stun
31-34 landing lag

So you're free from frame 19. That means...
19-25 unblock
25-33 dash usmash

Let's assume two things:
- Your opponent doesn't FF asap.
- You don't buffer the dash usmash.
You can still hit him.

Let's assume two different things:
- Your opponent FFs asap.
- You buffer from unblock.
You can still hit him.

Dash attack is 4 frames quicker, so you don't even need a buffer for that.
If the opponent delays the fair, you can only usmash from block; there's no time to unblock and dash. Still, if they do that sort of thing often, your dash usmash can connect before their fair comes out.

Basically my new plan vs MK is to get him into kill range and kill him with usmash. We have a ton of ways to kill with usmash. Shield-happy players will be like "wtf?" when they realize we're usmashing them anyway xD

Before kill range, our walk up block can shield-grab his tilts, and our walk grab can connect before his (because of our inch-larger grab). If we both wanted to block, I'm better-conditioned to grab him first in a grab war. If we walk up and block, and the opponent does a dair or nair, it's your choice to fair/uair/nair them (fair/uair depending on range, nair for the speed). I now try to usmash early, but not later (a fresh usmash comes in handy). Also, I'm free to dash attack MK from 50%; one more option.

When ready for the opponent's dash approaches, I like walking around and utilting as he comes in. Standing grab -can- beat his dashgrab/dashattack. It's much more difficult to beat dashattack with it, but his dash attack has like 20 cool-down frames. "Is that enough to smash him from block?" You bet. Just dsmash instead of usmash when you're conserving usmash fresh.

I like this philosophy. Its like duck tape. If upsmash doesn't work at first, use more upsmash!

i didn't play well last weekend, and i would've done better with a bit more usmash. but what if i used a LOT more usmash?

Then upsmash would be stale and you'd have to use other moves to refresh/kill. For me, I'll stop upsmashing at 60% and wait till 90+ to try again.

I'll try that strategy though and see how it works.

Lasers are really good to refresh Usmash.

@ Tkd, you're right lol. I remember reflecting them and jumping a lot but right now it doesn't seem to work. I'll test more laterz.

Yeah, I really think you should keep the usmash fresh. At least in the MK match-up. Disabling his tanking ability really cripples him. To complete my idea, what I meant was "use usmash to KO a lot more". I really stopped using it. I'm that smart.

M@v said:

I like this philosophy. Its like duck tape. If upsmash doesn't work at first, use more upsmash!

Click to expand...

this was our origonal thoughts as metaknights nado


and then we met tkd fox

Today's results:
singles
1. tkd (fox/mk)
2. havok (snake/mk)
3. ac (wolf/mk)
4. tearbear (mk)
5. neneh (marth) <- he said his 5th was higher
5. oats (lucas)

doubles
1. havok+tearbear (mk)
2. neneh+tkd (mk/marth)
3. oats+ac (lucas/mk)

details:
grand finals was best of 7. nevertheless game 7 was reached
winner finals was ac vs me
fire beat kentas
oats beat ice
neneh and i lost winners round 2 in doubles

game play stuff:
baiting snake is cool.
killing mk early is cool.
wolf tanks.
kakatekoi.

Can't you just use lasers and some aerials and tilts to refresh up smash?

ROBFOX NEEDS HELP!!!
I went to KTAR the past weekend nd when im in a tourney match, I freeze up
I get nervous nd dont camp, sheild grab most of the time, nd jus plain mess up
I think its lack of tourney experience i mean but still this was my 6th tourney 1st regional, I should be over it right???
any tips on how to call the nerve when playing?

We need to strength as a community and talk and discuss things more together, throw ideas back and forth. This thread is a perfect example, but I think if we talked skype weekly we could possibly not only strengthen personal ties (I still feel between some of us there is a disconnect and we don't like others) but we would get better and it would show. (Tourney results)

xIblisx said:

We need to strength as a community and talk and discuss things more together, throw ideas back and forth. This thread is a perfect example, but I think if we talked skype weekly we could possibly not only strengthen personal ties (I still feel between some of us there is a disconnect and we don't like others) but we would get better and it would show. (Tourney results)

Click to expand...

wat ever happened to that? we need a good time that suites the majority of smashers. It would be good if we got together and talked about a match or something. i know it would help alot of fox's in the long term.

@Robfox: I still get competition anxiety. And I've played Smash in tourneys since 2006. It'll always be there. Also, six tourneys is a laughable amount of experience to get over such an innate problem (it's like saying, "women get me nervous, but I've been on six dates already! I should be over it by now, shouldn't I!?").

The best you can do is keep attending. Experience and confidence are good. There are also good mentalities tu use. I like the "you're playing against a character, its options, and its limitations. whoever's controlling it is just a piece of meat, he doesn't matter". It's new and I haven't internalized it, but it works.

Anything that lets you live the moment and not think about anything but the game (for example, winning or losing and the results of that, what others are thinking, who you're facing, how good or bad you are, etc. etc.) helps a lot.

About camping, heh. There's no set, correct way to play. You can come up with more.

Idk what happened to it Cloud. Soccer stopped me from going lol.

Also a key part of camping you should always know is, when to stop lasering because they are able to punish you while you in the air. That is an experience thing though as it differs from opposing character traits/movesets/abilities.

@Kadaj: Yes. But you can't land 9 hits without dealing lots of damage. And forcing lasers may only get you a couple of them, unless you want to risk it. Having a fresh usmash by the time MK reaches 90% is tight.

Guys, pick Yoshi's Island against Snake. It's ****.
I thought: "I want the OPPOSITE of Halberd and Frigate. Which stage has lower borders so I can blaster a crouching Snake? ...Oh".

Block while facing away from platforms so you can get hit off of them. Easy escape (fast-fall or air-jump). You can downb to face the appropriate direction if convenient.

About the SH ACdair thing, it telegraphs way too much.