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Optimal Improvement Environment

Cactuar

El Fuego
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So I posted this in the Marth Forum, and I want to know what other people think about it:

I have had discussions with other people about what it takes to get good fast and my own feelings are this.

To become good at smash (this is not factoring in natural talent, which includes learning/adaption speed, reaction speed, ability to remember and comprehend events which happen to you, etc) you need 3 outside influences.

1) The Pro: You need the pro. You need to be ***** consistently. You need him to show you that you suck, to show you how techniques are supposed to be used, to show you how easily he can exploit every one of your weaknesses, how he can exploit your DI, how he can **** your soul. You need him so that you have a goal.

2) The Peer: You need the peer. You need to be constantly reminded that you need to continue getting better, or the peer will become the pro, leaving you behind. You need him to give you that burning motivation, to keep you engaged in the game, that sense of competition forever maintained because of the scaling abilities of both of you, pitted against one another. This is your main opponent. Love him, for he is the reflection of your abilities, and will be the source of your best improvement.

3) The Scrub: You want the scrub. You want to crush the scrubs spirit. You want to walk all over him, proving that you can defeat an enemy relying completely on technical skill, but that you could also just relax and take them down using strategy. You want the scrub so that, when the Pro and the Peer are both unavailable, you have something with a brain to beat on, to keep you from rusting. And who knows, maybe one day, one of the many Scrubs you have crushed will graduate from his scrub status and become a peer.


Beyond these three things, there is only mindset and will to play. You want to keep a positive attitude, always seeking an opponent that you will lose against. If there is one thing that has helped me get better quickly, it is that I love to lose.
 

Junpappy

Smash Lord
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Umm do you have any advice for smaller communities that are without pros?
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
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Not to sound like a downer, but it is extraordinarily difficult to improve with the hopes of reaching high level play at this point. All the people who have been standing out as new players are being raised in communities where there are good players already. It's kinda unrealistic to want to reach pro level play at this point anyway with Brawl on the horizon, but the best advice I can give is to try and go to the big name tournaments. I understand it can be impossible for some, but it's really all you can do. Without experiencing the high level game first hand, it's somewhat impossible to understand (through videos, etc.).
 

Omni

You can't break those cuffs.
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That brings the question of how the #1 player is able to improve and why can't anyone else simply imitate that method.

I know the answer, but I wanna' hear your opinion first Charlie Brown. You know, just so I can pick through your answer and correct you. :chuckle:
 

Blazer

Smash Ace
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Messages
710
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Kentucky
I'm the pro in my area.... Everyone else would be scrubs because I get KO'd a max of 2 times in 5 stock matches and usually those two are because I jump off goofing around and mess up my return.(I do it A LOT) How do I improve?
 

Omni

You can't break those cuffs.
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I'm the pro in my area.... Everyone else would be scrubs because I get KO'd a max of 2 times in 5 stock matches and usually those two are because I jump off goofing around and mess up my return.(I do it A LOT) How do I improve?
Perfect your technical skill. Aim to be flawless. (M2K)

Mindgame wise, you're screwed unless you travel. You can watch vids, but watching mindgames and experiencing them are two different things. You'll be surprised at how differently you act when you're in the middle of a fight then how you THINK you'll react when you're watching.
 

Corigames

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I have the perfect environment then. Gaming school offers me:
1. Pros that have been playing the game constantly longer than I have who kick my butt.

2. Peers that always give nice, close battles which we are always competitive about.

3. Scrubs... new people at the school that thought they were big back home but have now stepped into the big house. This is where we all started out here.
 

Corigames

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I'm the pro in my area.... Everyone else would be scrubs because I get KO'd a max of 2 times in 5 stock matches and usually those two are because I jump off goofing around and mess up my return.(I do it A LOT) How do I improve?
Where is your "area" and how long have you been coming to smashboards?
 

AlphaZealot

Former Smashboards Owner
Administrator
Premium
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Personally speaking: I made my most noticable improvements from training with Chu often. Since I started going to college in Ohio, I also notice large improvements after playing with Joe Bushman.
 

Leoneri

Smash Ace
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Mar 1, 2007
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580
Personally speaking: I made my most noticable improvements from training with Chu often. Since I started going to college in Ohio, I also notice large improvements after playing with Joe Bushman.
I used to live in Ohio, but wasn't big on smash then :(

Unfortunately I have no pros or peers to face. Although I may have some peers to face soon enough. Of course scrubs I can consider anyone that I play atm, since they don't really play smash.
 

Eggm

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Its also good if the peers who are a bit better than you DON"T sandbag that helps a lot more than letting them win, but yeah I agree with everything cactuar put, good stuffs cactus pants.
 

tshahi10

Smash Ace
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Oct 22, 2006
Messages
804
i punish scrubs and they come back for more , bringing more scrubs, and being better by a bit.
 

Kerocola

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 5, 2007
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171
Looks like I've only got the scrubs. Even at local tourneys I saw a total of 1 person who can wavedash. And they wavedash+dsmash spam, which becomes obvious and easy to counter. I act as a peer to someone, and I'm not really the greatest in the first place. If I traveled outwards a bit more to bigger city tournaments I could easily get people who could whoop me anyday. Which is what I am currently lacking. Without anybody to show your weaknessess, you cannot improve in that area. So I practice technical skill. So far, I haven't met anyone equal, I move a lot, float around, watch people, get in contact, but...so far, I've just met the scrubs category.
So, it is true...but I don't like losing as much as you seem to. Self confidence goes down a bit, but that also keeps you motivated.
Edit from the long-winded Kero: My motivation is from not being recognized, which will become easier with Brawl, hopefully. Watching pro videos and discussions I watch in passing make me have respect for people who could probably beat me, and it makes me want to be there, in the match, in the discussion...yep.
 

kirbstir

Smash Lord
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I noticed rapid improvements after using action replay codes between matches
 

gamefreak2006

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Jun 7, 2006
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Rochester, NY
That was a good read cactuar, and I agree with you 100% Going to big tournaments and getting ***** made me so much better. And who doesn't like owning scrubs :laugh: I hope I can get some more friendlies with you at some point, playing you at Gauntlet was really fun. You and max should bring up some more PA smashers to BFWNY 4, housing on me.
 

Sliq

Smash Master
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I think that having a sense of consciousness during a match is very important. However, this implies that there is a lack of consciousness during matches, which seems silly ("lulz i play as i sleep").

Of course, how many times have you played a set and then have to try and remember which stage you went to first?

By making conscious observations during your match, you can see what is working, what isn't, and also find patterns in your opponents behavior.

This is easier said and done, because when I play a match, my brain seems to go on auto-pilot...unless I force myself to pay attention and recognize what is going on in the match.

Sometimes when I watch a match, I see things coming, but the player in the video falls for it. When you are watching, you are able to pick apart the match and comprehend it because you are consciously receiving data and interpreting it. However, this function seems to be obstructed when you are the one in the match.

Once you get to a point when you are actively studying your match, you will be able to learn how your opponent reacts in different situations. Once you have recognized what strategy is beating you, you then have to find a counter strategy, which is hard to do, especially if your opponent is paying attention as well.

If not, as soon as you counter their strategies, they are doomed. However, if they recognize their strategy failing, they will go through the process of figuring out how to counter your counter strategy.

This is why noobs are so easy to deal with (if you are consciously studying the match). They have a pattern that they never stray from, regardless of whether or not it is working. This is because they lack the knowledge of the game to see the other options. By being ignorant of the game, they have a severe lack of options at their disposal. You, however, have a plethora.

Mind game > tech skill. Tech skill you can practice, but in order to gain mind games you need to, as previously stated, play experienced people. Mind games come from experience, and tech skill comes from practice and execution.

I was bored at work, hence the novel.
 

shadepaw

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I only have scrubs and peers, which is annoying because I talk like I can't be beaten by anyone near me. I live in tiny UK so it's especially hard to find other people to play smash with.
 

Junpappy

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If you have to play against a pro to become a pro, then how did people like Ken become pros?
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
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Most of the people who are pro at this point have been playing so long that the concept of "The Pro" doesn't apply in that situation, whereas they have "The Peer" to rely on to improve. The amount you improve from The Pro, The Peer, and The Scrub, each varies dependent on your skill level.
 

ElfenLiedPeach

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Good post Cactuar, it makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately at the moment I am stuck with only maybe three or four peers around my level, and a few scrubs with my lack of travel ability '-_- I wish I could play against a pro someday, it'd help me a lot.
 

Emblem Lord

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Ken was able to get on top, because he played a different way with a character that poeple didn't know all that much about. Marth strats weren't as effective when Ken hit the scene. He relied more on grabs, spacing, and his famous ken comboing. He also relied heavily on dash dancing. His play style was completely unheard of.

He was able to develop new effective strats that no one could counter easily back then. That was how he got to the top. So while everyone was trying to catch up to him he just kept getting better.
 

Blazer

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Where is your "area" and how long have you been coming to smashboards?
Northeastern KY. A city called Ashland (4th largest Kentucky city I believe and that' not saying much.) How long have i been on Smashboards? Longetr than most anyone that comes here now. July 2004. I just don't post a lot except on certain occasions like recently.
 

Mm-sh

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Northeastern KY. A city called Ashland (4th largest Kentucky city I believe and that' not saying much.) How long have i been on Smashboards? Longetr than most anyone that comes here now. July 2004. I just don't post a lot except on certain occasions like recently.
i'm new so i guess were on the same level :) :)
 

Blazer

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How long you have been on this board in no way affects skill though. Of course you could be better than any of us for all we know. It's not likely but very possible.
 

Blazer

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Fine by me. I haven't played Melee in a while anyway. (disk is scratched too much. Gonna use a disk cleaner at my friend's place Friday.)
 

Pakman

WWMD
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Cactuar was my peer like a year ago. Then he went super saiyen and started ****** with marth. Now he is my psuedo pro (He is loads better than me, but M2K is still around.) I don't get to play my peers very often anymore, but I usually do well against them in tourny. Lately I have only lost Matches against people I know are better than me. We need more competition in PA.
 

KevinM

TB12 TB12 TB12
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Yea, with brawl on the horizon a lot of people trying to make it into the pro scene are really in trouble..

Recently i've been at a loss to play people because i've gotten to good for the area i smash in, fortunately this summer i hope to get down to some OAK smashfests and maybe meet some kids that can be the "pro" for me :)

Hey and you know what... I'll see you all in brawl haha :)
 

Sliq

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Yea, with brawl on the horizon a lot of people trying to make it into the pro scene are really in trouble..

Recently i've been at a loss to play people because i've gotten to good for the area i smash in, fortunately this summer i hope to get down to some OAK smashfests and maybe meet some kids that can be the "pro" for me :)

Hey and you know what... I'll see you all in brawl haha :)
That may be true, but I feel getting a hang for competitive smash bros. scene and understanding mind-games and advanced tactics now will at least marginally transfer over to brawl. Starting Melee now is only benefiting you, IMHO.
 

Linguini

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I do not agree with this at all, my friend Tipman got amazing by only playing scrubs.
How did he get good against falco? Playing a falco noob.How did he get good against fox?Playing a fox noob.In my opinion there is no persay"Optimal smash environment".Sure, if you have all of these it will be a bit easier but it is not set in stone.
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
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There are exceptions to every rule lol. And Tipman has significant tourny experience >.>

What you are talking about is also character matchup experience. I'm talking about improving raw ability. While it's possible to get good just from having one of the three, its much easier and faster while having all of them.
 

D1

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If there is one thing that has helped me get better quickly, it is that I love to lose.
I 100% agree w/ this in my case..and also agree w/ your entire first post...

...and LOL @ how u made me feel like "the scrub" in our last friendly after MLG today XD!
 

Scar

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In my opinion there is no persay"Optimal smash environment".Sure, if you have all of these it will be a bit easier but it is not set in stone.
"Optimal" just means "best." So there are plenty of ways to become great, but there is an optimal way, defined as "a bit easier" than everything else.

:)
 

Umpy

Smash Apprentice
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Mar 15, 2007
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for me i like lots of people around and i LOVE pressure it just makes me play well. It is the same with Halo 2 and me( I am the best where i live by like a billion ) I love lots of people around so that they see how good I am. Smash I am pretty good at me and my crew are all about the same level so it is like the same..I love lots of people. It just makes me play better and that bumps up my skill level everytime.
 
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