PKNintendo
Smash Master
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- Aug 9, 2008
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I know... A defensive Zelda is... horrible.
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PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]
- Thread starter Yink
- Start date
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
Gawd can we please make it weekly? THere's is input I'd like to mention on characters but it's moving too d*** fast!
I agree with this. Or at least 5 days.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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Give it to me now. And we will revisit. Don't worry. 24 hours is not fast.
Most of us arnt gonna be here the whole 24 hours.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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Or are you...
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
I actually like the fact that it goes this fast. I missed a few days, but at least we can have SOMETHING down so we can actually have a basis to form our opinions off of instead of just pulling stuff out of thin air.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
cant give all the info right now because I type essays and I have other things I do in life 
Ness vs. Zelda is still an advantage. I would back it up if I had time.
Ness vs. Zelda is still an advantage. I would back it up if I had time.
Luigi player
Smash Master
How so? Just put up your PSI Magnet and wait until she approaches, you don't have to approach her if you don't want to (unless it's a timed match and she has more lives/less damage than you ^^).
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Oh, that's easy.
*spams Farore's and watches you look silly with the magnet and then warps right next to you/on you*
What can a PSI Magneting Ness do about it? Good for him if he can lag cancel, but shielding isn't gonna prevent a grab. That's not going to help at all, and no Ness will do that unless Zelda is on the other end of the stage, which will be virtually never.
I'm waiting for your rebuttal, and I hope it involves something that we haven't covered yet. I also hope this isn't one of your, "I have no trouble with this character" posts, like with Sheik.cant give all the info right now because I type essays and I have other things I do in life
Ness vs. Zelda is still an advantage. I would back it up if I had time.
Luigi player
Smash Master
Well, you don't have to have it on the whole time >_> you can just use it when she uses Dins Fire. And if she teleports you can always shield. It's not like her teleport is fast...
Personally, I never have faced a great Zelda, but a decent one. I hate her smashes and dash attack, I can't dodge her smashes (upsmash mostly) and somehow never see the dash attack coming... lol.
She's very gimpable though. At the start of her upB you can still hit her. And if she doesn't sweetspot the ledge she's easily punishable (just be sure to predict her teleport to you and shield if she does it, if you don't try to gimp her...).
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Putting your PSI magnet up until she approaches = having it up the whole time until Zelda approaches... which is pretty much nullifying it, AND you're making it hella obvious as to what you're going to do. Zelda isn't going to stand back and just throw it out for you to absorb each and every single time.
If she teleports in front of you or behind you, what's shielding going to do again? Oh, that's right... nothing.
Yes, you can hit her at the start of her Up B, just like with Ness. Doesn't matter though - both characters will usually Up B before the opponent can reach you. Also, you and everyone else I've gone over with this sorely overestimate Zelda's reappearance on the stage. This isn't Melee where she's frozen for 20 years. The hitbox comes out, and if you don't perfect shield it or spotdodge it (like she has to warp ON you, anyway), you're not getting an easy punish.
You've brought up nothing that hasn't been said and addressed already, no offense.
If she teleports in front of you or behind you, what's shielding going to do again? Oh, that's right... nothing.
Yes, you can hit her at the start of her Up B, just like with Ness. Doesn't matter though - both characters will usually Up B before the opponent can reach you. Also, you and everyone else I've gone over with this sorely overestimate Zelda's reappearance on the stage. This isn't Melee where she's frozen for 20 years. The hitbox comes out, and if you don't perfect shield it or spotdodge it (like she has to warp ON you, anyway), you're not getting an easy punish.
You've brought up nothing that hasn't been said and addressed already, no offense.
Ztarfish
Smash Journeyman
Ness has a lot of traits that neutralize a lot of what makes Zelda threatening, however Zelda's range is one thing that Ness's will have trouble getting around. I think what makes this match easier for Zelda is that Ness's will normally approach from the air, where he has little defense against her long lasting smashes. If a Ness approached from the ground and learned to hold his shield against her smashes, the match would be a lot easier, considering his grabs are generally pretty useful.
I still think the match is slightly in Ness's favor, though not as much as I used to.
Also why would you play Zelda against Ness, Sheik is definitely the better option.
I still think the match is slightly in Ness's favor, though not as much as I used to.
Also why would you play Zelda against Ness, Sheik is definitely the better option.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Because... you might be much, much better with Zelda than you are with Sheik? That's the case for me.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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- Aug 9, 2008
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Okay, anyone have any more tips fighting Zelda using Ness? I get my ***** handed to me if I go offensive (my opponent is EXTREMELY defensive.) I can't play defense since the match goes nowhere, grabbing Zelda is close to impossible. (her spot dodge comes out extremely fast and ends fast too) And she can punish whiffed grabs. Utilt kills early, and my only positive is her lightness. Help?
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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It's impossible. I actually have to use bair.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
Okay, Like I said, Ness vs. Zelda is an advantage Ness.
First off is the obvious, Ness can PSIM Din's Fire. Makes long distance Dins Fire pointless. Now close range is still safe because of the lag cancel. Successor of Raphael apparently doesnt understand how the lag cancel works. You actually CANNOT shield out of the magnet, and no Ness wil do that anyways. I usually jump and airdodge out of the magnet. You can also roll or spotdodge out.
Ness is a fast character which can make it hard to KO sometimes. This means Zelda's KO moves are going to be hard to place, minus maybe the uair, but that has its own problems (as in being so predictable). The fair and bair will be hard to place. Ness is short enough to be able to DI down out of the usmash and stay out of that last hit. He can DI the fsmash too, although much harder. Ftilt utilt and dsmash are tough nails, but managalbe.
Ness outdoes Zelda in the air for sure. He ourtanges her and is pretty even in terms of speed. His fair covers all of her aerials.
Despite what some think, Ness' projectiles are NOT shut down by Zelda's Nayru's love. PKF in the air wont be reflect towards Ness. The way PKF is usually dealt with is by DIing out and reflecting the pillar. Should this happen, a short hopped dair takes care of it. Zelda is also vulnerable to juggling. No, Mayru's love wont help much here since no smart Ness player should juggle with just the head head head. Mindgames and tailwhipping really handle this weill.
Farore's wind recovery is amazing for Ness. PKTFE works so well since you have no worry of hitting Zelda as she recovers and has landfall scpecial lag. The way it is aimed also helps and it can be predicted. She also has VERY limited DI after the move is finished, placing a big bullseye on her forehead. Even if she sweetspots, you can simply tailwhip her and then stage cancel PKT. She cannot move so far horizontally after a tailwhip by the ledge, so edgehog her. Easy gimp. Basically, her recovery leaves her very vulnerable to the tailwhip gim and ESPECIALLY the PKTFE. It probably works better on Zelda than ANYONE.
And I have to say, you must be pretty bad at landing a grab if you cant grab Zelda. I'll admit, she's not easy to grab, but no where near as "impossible" as some of you guys are saying.
Zelda is also not much better at gimping Ness than most others. She can, but it's insanely hard and not always worth aiming for.
Zelda's smashes are a problem sometimes though. The usmash I can stand, but the dsmash is quick and can KO. Annoying as hell and faster than a lot of what Ness can dish out on the ground. Ness loses on the ground for the most part, but at least Ness' dash attack outranges her.
60:40
Its more than a slight advantage for sure.
If this matchup is considered even in this thread, I'll lose faith in it. Of course the Zelda players will argue it is even, but a lot of Ness players agree on the opposite, and that it is Ness' advantage. So why should the Zelda players have their opinions voiced over the Ness players who generally agree Ness wins on Zelda? It IS our character anyway. Sounds a bit hypocritical I know, but I mean seriously...
First off is the obvious, Ness can PSIM Din's Fire. Makes long distance Dins Fire pointless. Now close range is still safe because of the lag cancel. Successor of Raphael apparently doesnt understand how the lag cancel works. You actually CANNOT shield out of the magnet, and no Ness wil do that anyways. I usually jump and airdodge out of the magnet. You can also roll or spotdodge out.
Ness is a fast character which can make it hard to KO sometimes. This means Zelda's KO moves are going to be hard to place, minus maybe the uair, but that has its own problems (as in being so predictable). The fair and bair will be hard to place. Ness is short enough to be able to DI down out of the usmash and stay out of that last hit. He can DI the fsmash too, although much harder. Ftilt utilt and dsmash are tough nails, but managalbe.
Ness outdoes Zelda in the air for sure. He ourtanges her and is pretty even in terms of speed. His fair covers all of her aerials.
Despite what some think, Ness' projectiles are NOT shut down by Zelda's Nayru's love. PKF in the air wont be reflect towards Ness. The way PKF is usually dealt with is by DIing out and reflecting the pillar. Should this happen, a short hopped dair takes care of it. Zelda is also vulnerable to juggling. No, Mayru's love wont help much here since no smart Ness player should juggle with just the head head head. Mindgames and tailwhipping really handle this weill.
Farore's wind recovery is amazing for Ness. PKTFE works so well since you have no worry of hitting Zelda as she recovers and has landfall scpecial lag. The way it is aimed also helps and it can be predicted. She also has VERY limited DI after the move is finished, placing a big bullseye on her forehead. Even if she sweetspots, you can simply tailwhip her and then stage cancel PKT. She cannot move so far horizontally after a tailwhip by the ledge, so edgehog her. Easy gimp. Basically, her recovery leaves her very vulnerable to the tailwhip gim and ESPECIALLY the PKTFE. It probably works better on Zelda than ANYONE.
And I have to say, you must be pretty bad at landing a grab if you cant grab Zelda. I'll admit, she's not easy to grab, but no where near as "impossible" as some of you guys are saying.
Zelda is also not much better at gimping Ness than most others. She can, but it's insanely hard and not always worth aiming for.
Zelda's smashes are a problem sometimes though. The usmash I can stand, but the dsmash is quick and can KO. Annoying as hell and faster than a lot of what Ness can dish out on the ground. Ness loses on the ground for the most part, but at least Ness' dash attack outranges her.
60:40
Its more than a slight advantage for sure.
If this matchup is considered even in this thread, I'll lose faith in it. Of course the Zelda players will argue it is even, but a lot of Ness players agree on the opposite, and that it is Ness' advantage. So why should the Zelda players have their opinions voiced over the Ness players who generally agree Ness wins on Zelda? It IS our character anyway. Sounds a bit hypocritical I know, but I mean seriously...
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
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- 3,679
Well you are cool, and you play strikers... But it's ZELDA! I hate facing Zelda. Your right about the Dsmash too. I would consider your post, but I read a thread about some dude named smashbros, and read the whole topic... I suppose you feel strongly about this matchup. It's like the Mario vs Ness matchup.
I think Ness owns Mario, but I would be ***** if I said so. I feel your pain brotherman! (how the hell do you grab Zelda)
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
You're right, I didn't understand. I thought you were saying you could cancel the lag of the Magnet by just letting it down. I didn't know you had to ABSORB something first, and now you're assuming that you can telegraph Zelda's Din's when she's using it up close while canceling the ending lag and being safe. Sure, it works, but honestly, how much is that going to help Ness? You'll get hit by Din's more than you do that.
Wait a sec, speed affects KO potential that much? Zelda has an easier time KOing Squirtle than she does someone like Olimar or Ike. Ness isn't much faster than anyone else in the cast. His aerial mobility is good, but his ground mobility isn't quick. How does his speed pose*any* semblance of threat to Zelda's KOing abilities.
Usmash isn't hard to place. Just throw it out, and if Ness isn't using a properly spaced fair, he'll get hit. That move alone has priority over virtually all of Ness's non-disjointed attacks. Dair, at the most, will trade hits with it. The rest just flat out lose. He can DI it, and I do it fairly often, but only if Zelda connects with it on the side, and DIing it isn't even guaranteed. Land in the middle, and you're not getting out.
Fair/bair are not hard to place. Why in the world does everyone think that just because they can't get but one lightning kick off in a match that it's hard to land kicks? I land them on Squirtle, I land them on Olimar, and I land them on G&W, despite having to contend with his bair for a good portion of the match. Ness is not special here.
Ftilt and utilt are the same for virtually everyone, so I'll leave it as that. Dtilt chains work better the smaller the character is. This means Ness. You take a fair bit of damage and you can trip into a killing move. Dtilt -> Dsmash is good enough to force Ness to use PKT2 to recover.
True.
See, this is what I knew you'd pull.
Nobody said NL shuts down Ness's projectiles, but just by being able to reflect the pillar, you're stopping most of Ness's PKF combos. SH dair means you're pretty much right next to Zelda in order to hit with it. He can't SH his own PKF pillar near the start, last time I checked. By the time it's dying down (which is longer than usual because Zelda is reflecting here), NL will be finished and Zelda will shield the aerial... or she can Usmash.
So let's say you do get her in the air off of this. Now you're acting like Zelda is just going to stay in the air for you to hit her with 3-4 PKTs. That's just stupid and ridiculous. She can warp past it, she can reflect it if she so desires, she can airdodge past it. Of the three, the first one is easily the most effective one. You don't know where she's going to warp to, so she's giving you a taste of your own mindgames right there. Chances are, she'll warp on the ground next to you, where you're vulnerable. She can also throw out Din's at you and trade hits, with Din's always being the stronger of the two because you won't get a 14-15% tailwhip off of her if she decides to use Din's. She'll land safely after a hit each and every single time.
Can she be juggled? Sure she can, but she doesn't get juggled any worse than most of the cast does, and in fact, she's juggled a lot less than most of the cast simply by the very nature of her B moves. You have to give your opponent more credit than that.
Warp into Ness when he tries this. End of PKT.
Warp onto the ledge and roll/attack, depending on where Ness is. No tailwhip and no PKT2.
Zelda doesn't need to warp straight up after having the ledge taken from her. She can warp in at least 16 different directions... meaning she can just about always sweetspot the ledge. Stop playing the CPU Zelda and thinking that she always warps that way.
It's nowhere near impossible to land a full Usmash or Fsmash on Ness, or a fair/bair, or to land on the stage without getting hit by PK Thunder at all. Oh wait, but because you say it is, it MUST be impossible, correct? This is the bull that I didn't want to go through with you, and excuse me for going on the defensive, but you're CLEARLY not giving the Zelda player any semblance of intelligence here and making the Ness player Simna.
"Insanely hard?" Since we're making the Ness be the best player in the world vs. this idiot Zelda, I'll name obscure things that Zelda can do to Ness for a gimp:
- Din's the PK Thunder. Canceled, -1 stock
- Din's Ness during PKT2 to cut his traveling distance
- Fsmash him if he misses the sweetspot on the ledge. Fsmash > PKT2 when Ness isn't invincible
- Edgehog him, so when he goes above, you can nair or uair him.
- dair him, before, during, or after PKT2. It doesn't need a sweetspot to kill.
- jump into PK Thunder
- footstool him during PK Thunder
- fair/bair him during PKT2. Yes, it works.
Will Ness get gimped by all of this frequently? Hell no. However, this is what I feel whenever I see you post about something dealing with Ness vs. anyone else. Ness clearly isn't THAT easy to gimp, but hey, you say Zelda is the easiest to destroy with PKT, right? Keep in mind that this is not Melee Zelda.
Also, here's some food for thought for ya: Melee Ness and Melee Zelda were 5-5.
At least you're crediting her ground game here.
Ahahahaha.... NO.
*headdesk* Well no duh a lot of Ness players think it's in his advantage! Other Ness players think otherwise, and I would like to tell you that a fair bit of Ness players find that the match is even. Are you actually saying that you think the opinions of Ness's opponent don't matter as much as that of the Ness players'? That's the most one-sided, idiotic thing I've ever heard you say, and I'm sorry for sounding insulting, but you're now being ridiculous.
I don't know about you, but whenever I add my input on these match-ups, I do it so that when OTHER players come here, looking for Ness's significant good and bad match-ups, they won't do something like... say, read a post on Ness vs. Sheik, see a bunch of Ness mains who've never fought Sheik say that the match is even, pick/counterpick Ness against a Sheik, and lose badly. I don't care whose side you're on, and you shouldn't care whose side I'm on. What I want you to do is be fair and reasonable about the match-ups, not this "support your main because this thread is in our board" bullcrap.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
cool a response
Will reply... tommorrow
Will reply... tommorrow
For the most part I agree with EB360.
At first glance it seems that Zelda has the upper hand in the projectile game, since din's is so fast and powerful. But Ness can easily PSIM it, and just having the move will make Zelda players think twice before side-b'ing. Her neutral B can reflect our projectiles, but if they are strategically used and not used in obvious ways than Ness players shouldn't have a problem.
Zelda beats Ness in ground combat. Hands down. She out ranges us with f-smash and f-tilt, and has a great lagless neutral a that lasts forever. Ness needs to avoid her ground game as much as possible. And, yes, like everyone else is saying, going in for a grab is very risky. With a ground game so punishing one wonders if Ness should even think about it.
Ness beats her in the air. Slightly. As long as Ness stays out of range of her sweetspots, our fast/lagless aerials should combo her nicely. F-air works great. Approaching from above/directly to the side isn't smart though b/c u-air or f-air will punish him for it.
As long as Ness keeps his distance, maximizes and times his aerials correctly, and stay unpredictable with the projectiles, I think he has the slight advantage. 55-45 Ness.
I'm not a Ness main, and though I love playing as him a ton I have little competative experience with him, so I'm open to any critisism.
At first glance it seems that Zelda has the upper hand in the projectile game, since din's is so fast and powerful. But Ness can easily PSIM it, and just having the move will make Zelda players think twice before side-b'ing. Her neutral B can reflect our projectiles, but if they are strategically used and not used in obvious ways than Ness players shouldn't have a problem.
Zelda beats Ness in ground combat. Hands down. She out ranges us with f-smash and f-tilt, and has a great lagless neutral a that lasts forever. Ness needs to avoid her ground game as much as possible. And, yes, like everyone else is saying, going in for a grab is very risky. With a ground game so punishing one wonders if Ness should even think about it.
Ness beats her in the air. Slightly. As long as Ness stays out of range of her sweetspots, our fast/lagless aerials should combo her nicely. F-air works great. Approaching from above/directly to the side isn't smart though b/c u-air or f-air will punish him for it.
As long as Ness keeps his distance, maximizes and times his aerials correctly, and stay unpredictable with the projectiles, I think he has the slight advantage. 55-45 Ness.
I'm not a Ness main, and though I love playing as him a ton I have little competative experience with him, so I'm open to any critisism.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Yes, we've addressed this. First off, Ness's projectile game > Din's, that much I will say for sure. However, PSIM isn't as threatening as some players here make it out to be. All it does is prevent Din's from being thrown out carelessly from a far distance. That doesn't say much for midrange, when Ness is in an approaching distance.
Nayru's Love isn't supposed to completely stop Ness's projectiles at all - rather, in the case of PK Fire, it is meant to prevent PK Fire -> anything combos, which they do quite well. Reflecting PK Thunder... eh, only if Din's and Farore's aren't more viable.
Yes.
I'm ok with 55-45, despite the fact that I push for 50-50. The difference is virtually negligible, and if anything, it's closer to even than it is to 60-40, just like in Melee.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
Ok here we go
You're right, I didn't understand. I thought you were saying you could cancel the lag of the Magnet by just letting it down. I didn't know you had to ABSORB something first, and now you're assuming that you can telegraph Zelda's Din's when she's using it up close while canceling the ending lag and being safe. Sure, it works, but honestly, how much is that going to help Ness? You'll get hit by Din's more than you do that.
Its pretty easy to hop backwards and use PSIM. When Zelda hops towards u, she can throw an aerial out or use Dins Fire which are both pretty easy to read. Her aerials require spacing and timing, and they ARE predictable, so a little movement from will keep them generally safe. Short hopping back will keep u safe from those, but not Dins Fire. If th Dins fire comes, just use the magnet and lag cancel it. That's how simple it is. Its more effective than u think. It IS after all, a semi-mobile shield that can be used even in the air, better than moving and shielding.
Wait a sec, speed affects KO potential that much? Zelda has an easier time KOing Squirtle than she does someone like Olimar or Ike. Ness isn't much faster than anyone else in the cast. His aerial mobility is good, but his ground mobility isn't quick. How does his speed pose*any* semblance of threat to Zelda's KOing abilities.
Because it's harder to KO a Ganonthan a Sonic? Like I said, Zelda's KO moves are hard to place. It's even quoted in the backroom discussion thread as they require very fine placement. With speed and agailty, it WILL be harder to land that final blow on characters. Ness is also pretty small which also helps to some extent. You have to be pretty dumb to argue that a smaller character is not harder to KO than a big one.
Usmash isn't hard to place. Just throw it out, and if Ness isn't using a properly spaced fair, he'll get hit. That move alone has priority over virtually all of Ness's non-disjointed attacks. Dair, at the most, will trade hits with it. The rest just flat out lose. He can DI it, and I do it fairly often, but only if Zelda connects with it on the side, and DIing it isn't even guaranteed. Land in the middle, and you're not getting out.
If u just "throw it out there" like you said, you Ness can still DI downwards. Yes Ness can get hit with the final blow, but that will require you to hit him in the air near the center of it, a placement you wont acheive by just "throwing it out there." Nair probably trades hits with it also. Yes it has high priority. Fair is all Ness really needs though. Fair is too long ranged and long lasting to NOT win against the usmash. It will, and Ness players spam it. Dair yes trades hits, but so what? If they trade hits, Ness will be the one benefitting because of the nature of Zelda's usmash. Unless the Ness is stupid enough to dair down on a Zelda already doing the usmash, Ness will ony be taking one of the first few weak hits of the usmash which as you know are weak and then cancel the rest of the move. The Zelda however just took a dair to the face popping her up for aerial ****.
Fair/bair are not hard to place. Why in the world does everyone think that just because they can't get but one lightning kick off in a match that it's hard to land kicks? I land them on Squirtle, I land them on Olimar, and I land them on G&W, despite having to contend with his bair for a good portion of the match. Ness is not special here.
Wait wait wait, you're saying that even if you cant land onein a match, it doesnt mean it's hard to place? Wtf? It is hard to place. Many people say this, the backroom says it, but if you Zelda players want to consider it "easy" to land, go ahead. The sweetspot has a tiny hitbox and the range isnt anything too special. Ness will be outranging Zelda in the air with his own fair also.
Ftilt and utilt are the same for virtually everyone, so I'll leave it as that. Dtilt chains work better the smaller the character is. This means Ness. You take a fair bit of damage and you can trip into a killing move. Dtilt -> Dsmash is good enough to force Ness to use PKT2 to recover.
k sure. Yeah, Zelda's ground game>Ness'
But I'd just like to add that her tilts arent that much faster than her smashes.
See, this is what I knew you'd pull.
Nobody said NL shuts down Ness's projectiles, but just by being able to reflect the pillar, you're stopping most of Ness's PKF combos. SH dair means you're pretty much right next to Zelda in order to hit with it. He can't SH his own PKF pillar near the start, last time I checked. By the time it's dying down (which is longer than usual because Zelda is reflecting here), NL will be finished and Zelda will shield the aerial... or she can Usmash.
So let's say you do get her in the air off of this. Now you're acting like Zelda is just going to stay in the air for you to hit her with 3-4 PKTs. That's just stupid and ridiculous. She can warp past it, she can reflect it if she so desires, she can airdodge past it. Of the three, the first one is easily the most effective one. You don't know where she's going to warp to, so she's giving you a taste of your own mindgames right there. Chances are, she'll warp on the ground next to you, where you're vulnerable. She can also throw out Din's at you and trade hits, with Din's always being the stronger of the two because you won't get a 14-15% tailwhip off of her if she decides to use Din's. She'll land safely after a hit each and every single time.
Can she be juggled? Sure she can, but she doesn't get juggled any worse than most of the cast does, and in fact, she's juggled a lot less than most of the cast simply by the very nature of her B moves. You have to give your opponent more credit than that.
Wtf? PKF to dair works like a charm. Even some Zelda players know it and fear it. It's not Zelda specific either. It freakin works on Pit and Wolf. And I mistyped that, I doesnt ALWYS have to bea short hopped dair. As long as you can get over the fire.
Okay, you are completely misunderstanding me here. Im just stating that Zelda's specials do NOT give her a large advantage over other characters when it comes to juggling for Ness. He can juggle her almost as well as other characters. Should she warp down, wrapping PKT back down into Ness for a PKT2 escape or floorblast can save you. Besides, it's not like we're just use it on the ground wherever, You have to get smart with the juggling. One more thing, who said that we would HAVE to resort to PKT juggling?
Warp into Ness when he tries this. End of PKT.
Warp onto the ledge and roll/attack, depending on where Ness is. No tailwhip and no PKT2.
Zelda doesn't need to warp straight up after having the ledge taken from her. She can warp in at least 16 different directions... meaning she can just about always sweetspot the ledge. Stop playing the CPU Zelda and thinking that she always warps that way.
Like I didnt know that.[/scarcasm]
God dont be so stupid with Ness either. We're not going to sit in an extra vulnerable position to get telefraged. Ness can simply jump to avoid getting hit also.
I never said Zelda couldnt only warp up from a tailwhip. I meant after trying to get to the ledge, Ness CAN tailwhip her because she can appear in the tail if you keep it around there. After that, she will have to teleport up because she will be dropping below the ledge.
It's nowhere near impossible to land a full Usmash or Fsmash on Ness, or a fair/bair, or to land on the stage without getting hit by PK Thunder at all. Oh wait, but because you say it is, it MUST be impossible, correct? This is the bull that I didn't want to go through with you, and excuse me for going on the defensive, but you're CLEARLY not giving the Zelda player any semblance of intelligence here and making the Ness player Simna.
What... the... **** are you talking about!? I seriously have NO clue what you are adressing to because this was the response to my "Zelda is not impossible to grab" comment. Lol I've NEVER played a lvl 9 CPU anything so dont even mention that. And I never said I was pitting someone against Simna. How do u know ur not just underrating the Ness? I could say the same thing about you. Since when does Ness have to be in a stupid place with PKT to get punished for it like during a juggle or by being hit by Farore's wind? Since when do these "level 9 Nesses" sit still in their magnets wating to get hit with a physical attack?
"Insanely hard?" Since we're making the Ness be the best player in the world vs. this idiot Zelda, I'll name obscure things that Zelda can do to Ness for a gimp:
- Din's the PK Thunder. Canceled, -1 stock
- Din's Ness during PKT2 to cut his traveling distance
- Fsmash him if he misses the sweetspot on the ledge. Fsmash > PKT2 when Ness isn't invincible
- Edgehog him, so when he goes above, you can nair or uair him.
- dair him, before, during, or after PKT2. It doesn't need a sweetspot to kill.
- jump into PK Thunder
- footstool him during PK Thunder
- fair/bair him during PKT2. Yes, it works.
Will Ness get gimped by all of this frequently? Hell no. However, this is what I feel whenever I see you post about something dealing with Ness vs. anyone else. Ness clearly isn't THAT easy to gimp, but hey, you say Zelda is the easiest to destroy with PKT, right? Keep in mind that this is not Melee Zelda.
Also, here's some food for thought for ya: Melee Ness and Melee Zelda were 5-5.
At least you're crediting her ground game here.
You again are misreading me. I meant Zelda is not excessively good at gimping Ness and her character specific gimps arent something to fear. Anyone can jump into PKT, anyone can hit Ness after PKT2.
The bolded is the only thing Zelda can do that most others cant, and THAT's what I mean by hard. You criticize me for playing stupid Zeldas, but now if you think that gimping Ness with Dins is easy, I'd say YOU are playing the stupid Ness player. No Ness will leave himself so vulnerable to Dins. They should be craftily using their magnet in the air to stall their descent or using the bair to clank with the fire and stall until it dissappears. Yes it works, bair the fire, it doesnt hurt you, you pause in the air, and have enough time to PKT2 back. Ness can also just use an inversed PKT2 recovery to push the thunder away from the direction the fire is going.
Dins fire against PKT2 may pose a minimal threat, but the timing will be strict, and a slight mistiming will lead to just popping Ness up. Ness can sned PKT farther away from himself to wait out the Dins fire or just take the hit. PKT2 has a flexible startup time, and PKT doesnt stretch the screeen which can make it hard to tell when Ness will use PKT2. If you are late with your Dins, it may just pop Ness up. You have to hit with it fairly early in the PKT2 which will be difficult to time if the Ness player doesnt act as stupid as you want him to be.
Ahahahaha.... NO.
*chk* YES!
*headdesk* Well no duh a lot of Ness players think it's in his advantage! Other Ness players think otherwise, and I would like to tell you that a fair bit of Ness players find that the match is even. Are you actually saying that you think the opinions of Ness's opponent don't matter as much as that of the Ness players'? That's the most one-sided, idiotic thing I've ever heard you say, and I'm sorry for sounding insulting, but you're now being ridiculous.
I don't know about you, but whenever I add my input on these match-ups, I do it so that when OTHER players come here, looking for Ness's significant good and bad match-ups, they won't do something like... say, read a post on Ness vs. Sheik, see a bunch of Ness mains who've never fought Sheik say that the match is even, pick/counterpick Ness against a Sheik, and lose badly. I don't care whose side you're on, and you shouldn't care whose side I'm on. What I want you to do is be fair and reasonable about the match-ups, not this "support your main because this thread is in our board" bullcrap.
lol mmmmmmkay
I saw flames and fire coming a mile away since apprently Zelda players are pretty hostile, so dont mind me.
If you dont know where I was going with this since you apprently are pretty good at misreadin things, I was refferring to that oe quote where matchups can never be 100% accurate because one side will always post things about themselves without having played te excellence of each character every time. So if we can nver be 100% sure about whether it is or not, who should win?
Just because some people in this thread say Ness is even on Zelda doesnt mean its true. Likewise, just because some say it is adv. Ness doesnt mean it either, but Im telling you what I think and what some of the SMART Ness players think. Some of the average ones I have noticed do agree on the 50-50, but others I know that do play excellent Nesses do agree on Ness having the upper hand in battle.
I encourage Ness being played against Zelda because I think it is a good matchup. If you want to disagre on this go ahead.
phew... feel free to flame some more/call me a "Simna vs. Zelda n00b guy/misread my post/argue etc.
You're right, I didn't understand. I thought you were saying you could cancel the lag of the Magnet by just letting it down. I didn't know you had to ABSORB something first, and now you're assuming that you can telegraph Zelda's Din's when she's using it up close while canceling the ending lag and being safe. Sure, it works, but honestly, how much is that going to help Ness? You'll get hit by Din's more than you do that.
Its pretty easy to hop backwards and use PSIM. When Zelda hops towards u, she can throw an aerial out or use Dins Fire which are both pretty easy to read. Her aerials require spacing and timing, and they ARE predictable, so a little movement from will keep them generally safe. Short hopping back will keep u safe from those, but not Dins Fire. If th Dins fire comes, just use the magnet and lag cancel it. That's how simple it is. Its more effective than u think. It IS after all, a semi-mobile shield that can be used even in the air, better than moving and shielding.
Wait a sec, speed affects KO potential that much? Zelda has an easier time KOing Squirtle than she does someone like Olimar or Ike. Ness isn't much faster than anyone else in the cast. His aerial mobility is good, but his ground mobility isn't quick. How does his speed pose*any* semblance of threat to Zelda's KOing abilities.
Because it's harder to KO a Ganonthan a Sonic? Like I said, Zelda's KO moves are hard to place. It's even quoted in the backroom discussion thread as they require very fine placement. With speed and agailty, it WILL be harder to land that final blow on characters. Ness is also pretty small which also helps to some extent. You have to be pretty dumb to argue that a smaller character is not harder to KO than a big one.
Usmash isn't hard to place. Just throw it out, and if Ness isn't using a properly spaced fair, he'll get hit. That move alone has priority over virtually all of Ness's non-disjointed attacks. Dair, at the most, will trade hits with it. The rest just flat out lose. He can DI it, and I do it fairly often, but only if Zelda connects with it on the side, and DIing it isn't even guaranteed. Land in the middle, and you're not getting out.
If u just "throw it out there" like you said, you Ness can still DI downwards. Yes Ness can get hit with the final blow, but that will require you to hit him in the air near the center of it, a placement you wont acheive by just "throwing it out there." Nair probably trades hits with it also. Yes it has high priority. Fair is all Ness really needs though. Fair is too long ranged and long lasting to NOT win against the usmash. It will, and Ness players spam it. Dair yes trades hits, but so what? If they trade hits, Ness will be the one benefitting because of the nature of Zelda's usmash. Unless the Ness is stupid enough to dair down on a Zelda already doing the usmash, Ness will ony be taking one of the first few weak hits of the usmash which as you know are weak and then cancel the rest of the move. The Zelda however just took a dair to the face popping her up for aerial ****.
Fair/bair are not hard to place. Why in the world does everyone think that just because they can't get but one lightning kick off in a match that it's hard to land kicks? I land them on Squirtle, I land them on Olimar, and I land them on G&W, despite having to contend with his bair for a good portion of the match. Ness is not special here.
Wait wait wait, you're saying that even if you cant land onein a match, it doesnt mean it's hard to place? Wtf? It is hard to place. Many people say this, the backroom says it, but if you Zelda players want to consider it "easy" to land, go ahead. The sweetspot has a tiny hitbox and the range isnt anything too special. Ness will be outranging Zelda in the air with his own fair also.
Ftilt and utilt are the same for virtually everyone, so I'll leave it as that. Dtilt chains work better the smaller the character is. This means Ness. You take a fair bit of damage and you can trip into a killing move. Dtilt -> Dsmash is good enough to force Ness to use PKT2 to recover.
k sure. Yeah, Zelda's ground game>Ness'
But I'd just like to add that her tilts arent that much faster than her smashes.
See, this is what I knew you'd pull.
Nobody said NL shuts down Ness's projectiles, but just by being able to reflect the pillar, you're stopping most of Ness's PKF combos. SH dair means you're pretty much right next to Zelda in order to hit with it. He can't SH his own PKF pillar near the start, last time I checked. By the time it's dying down (which is longer than usual because Zelda is reflecting here), NL will be finished and Zelda will shield the aerial... or she can Usmash.
So let's say you do get her in the air off of this. Now you're acting like Zelda is just going to stay in the air for you to hit her with 3-4 PKTs. That's just stupid and ridiculous. She can warp past it, she can reflect it if she so desires, she can airdodge past it. Of the three, the first one is easily the most effective one. You don't know where she's going to warp to, so she's giving you a taste of your own mindgames right there. Chances are, she'll warp on the ground next to you, where you're vulnerable. She can also throw out Din's at you and trade hits, with Din's always being the stronger of the two because you won't get a 14-15% tailwhip off of her if she decides to use Din's. She'll land safely after a hit each and every single time.
Can she be juggled? Sure she can, but she doesn't get juggled any worse than most of the cast does, and in fact, she's juggled a lot less than most of the cast simply by the very nature of her B moves. You have to give your opponent more credit than that.
Wtf? PKF to dair works like a charm. Even some Zelda players know it and fear it. It's not Zelda specific either. It freakin works on Pit and Wolf. And I mistyped that, I doesnt ALWYS have to bea short hopped dair. As long as you can get over the fire.
Okay, you are completely misunderstanding me here. Im just stating that Zelda's specials do NOT give her a large advantage over other characters when it comes to juggling for Ness. He can juggle her almost as well as other characters. Should she warp down, wrapping PKT back down into Ness for a PKT2 escape or floorblast can save you. Besides, it's not like we're just use it on the ground wherever, You have to get smart with the juggling. One more thing, who said that we would HAVE to resort to PKT juggling?
Warp into Ness when he tries this. End of PKT.
Warp onto the ledge and roll/attack, depending on where Ness is. No tailwhip and no PKT2.
Zelda doesn't need to warp straight up after having the ledge taken from her. She can warp in at least 16 different directions... meaning she can just about always sweetspot the ledge. Stop playing the CPU Zelda and thinking that she always warps that way.
Like I didnt know that.[/scarcasm]
God dont be so stupid with Ness either. We're not going to sit in an extra vulnerable position to get telefraged. Ness can simply jump to avoid getting hit also.
I never said Zelda couldnt only warp up from a tailwhip. I meant after trying to get to the ledge, Ness CAN tailwhip her because she can appear in the tail if you keep it around there. After that, she will have to teleport up because she will be dropping below the ledge.
It's nowhere near impossible to land a full Usmash or Fsmash on Ness, or a fair/bair, or to land on the stage without getting hit by PK Thunder at all. Oh wait, but because you say it is, it MUST be impossible, correct? This is the bull that I didn't want to go through with you, and excuse me for going on the defensive, but you're CLEARLY not giving the Zelda player any semblance of intelligence here and making the Ness player Simna.
What... the... **** are you talking about!? I seriously have NO clue what you are adressing to because this was the response to my "Zelda is not impossible to grab" comment. Lol I've NEVER played a lvl 9 CPU anything so dont even mention that. And I never said I was pitting someone against Simna. How do u know ur not just underrating the Ness? I could say the same thing about you. Since when does Ness have to be in a stupid place with PKT to get punished for it like during a juggle or by being hit by Farore's wind? Since when do these "level 9 Nesses" sit still in their magnets wating to get hit with a physical attack?
"Insanely hard?" Since we're making the Ness be the best player in the world vs. this idiot Zelda, I'll name obscure things that Zelda can do to Ness for a gimp:
- Din's the PK Thunder. Canceled, -1 stock
- Din's Ness during PKT2 to cut his traveling distance
- Fsmash him if he misses the sweetspot on the ledge. Fsmash > PKT2 when Ness isn't invincible
- Edgehog him, so when he goes above, you can nair or uair him.
- dair him, before, during, or after PKT2. It doesn't need a sweetspot to kill.
- jump into PK Thunder
- footstool him during PK Thunder
- fair/bair him during PKT2. Yes, it works.
Will Ness get gimped by all of this frequently? Hell no. However, this is what I feel whenever I see you post about something dealing with Ness vs. anyone else. Ness clearly isn't THAT easy to gimp, but hey, you say Zelda is the easiest to destroy with PKT, right? Keep in mind that this is not Melee Zelda.
Also, here's some food for thought for ya: Melee Ness and Melee Zelda were 5-5.
At least you're crediting her ground game here.
You again are misreading me. I meant Zelda is not excessively good at gimping Ness and her character specific gimps arent something to fear. Anyone can jump into PKT, anyone can hit Ness after PKT2.
The bolded is the only thing Zelda can do that most others cant, and THAT's what I mean by hard. You criticize me for playing stupid Zeldas, but now if you think that gimping Ness with Dins is easy, I'd say YOU are playing the stupid Ness player. No Ness will leave himself so vulnerable to Dins. They should be craftily using their magnet in the air to stall their descent or using the bair to clank with the fire and stall until it dissappears. Yes it works, bair the fire, it doesnt hurt you, you pause in the air, and have enough time to PKT2 back. Ness can also just use an inversed PKT2 recovery to push the thunder away from the direction the fire is going.
Dins fire against PKT2 may pose a minimal threat, but the timing will be strict, and a slight mistiming will lead to just popping Ness up. Ness can sned PKT farther away from himself to wait out the Dins fire or just take the hit. PKT2 has a flexible startup time, and PKT doesnt stretch the screeen which can make it hard to tell when Ness will use PKT2. If you are late with your Dins, it may just pop Ness up. You have to hit with it fairly early in the PKT2 which will be difficult to time if the Ness player doesnt act as stupid as you want him to be.
Ahahahaha.... NO.
*chk* YES!
*headdesk* Well no duh a lot of Ness players think it's in his advantage! Other Ness players think otherwise, and I would like to tell you that a fair bit of Ness players find that the match is even. Are you actually saying that you think the opinions of Ness's opponent don't matter as much as that of the Ness players'? That's the most one-sided, idiotic thing I've ever heard you say, and I'm sorry for sounding insulting, but you're now being ridiculous.
I don't know about you, but whenever I add my input on these match-ups, I do it so that when OTHER players come here, looking for Ness's significant good and bad match-ups, they won't do something like... say, read a post on Ness vs. Sheik, see a bunch of Ness mains who've never fought Sheik say that the match is even, pick/counterpick Ness against a Sheik, and lose badly. I don't care whose side you're on, and you shouldn't care whose side I'm on. What I want you to do is be fair and reasonable about the match-ups, not this "support your main because this thread is in our board" bullcrap.
lol mmmmmmkay
I saw flames and fire coming a mile away since apprently Zelda players are pretty hostile, so dont mind me.
If you dont know where I was going with this since you apprently are pretty good at misreadin things, I was refferring to that oe quote where matchups can never be 100% accurate because one side will always post things about themselves without having played te excellence of each character every time. So if we can nver be 100% sure about whether it is or not, who should win?
Just because some people in this thread say Ness is even on Zelda doesnt mean its true. Likewise, just because some say it is adv. Ness doesnt mean it either, but Im telling you what I think and what some of the SMART Ness players think. Some of the average ones I have noticed do agree on the 50-50, but others I know that do play excellent Nesses do agree on Ness having the upper hand in battle.
I encourage Ness being played against Zelda because I think it is a good matchup. If you want to disagre on this go ahead.
phew... feel free to flame some more/call me a "Simna vs. Zelda n00b guy/misread my post/argue etc.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Not that this is going to go anywhere.
Levitas
the moon
Ness players vs Zelda Players is something like a 5:5.
Note that this matchup will result in almost instantaneous hostility on both sides.
Each side will start making claims on whose difficult to hit with moves will connect and whose moves never hit.
Each side will then proceed to interpret those claims as matching up a noob with a pro.
Name calling and ad-hominum will emerge in the later stage of the matchup, and will almost always result in a stalemate that doesn't reach a consensus somehow, despite there not being a huge difference beteween a 6:4 and a 5:5.
Note that this matchup will result in almost instantaneous hostility on both sides.
Each side will start making claims on whose difficult to hit with moves will connect and whose moves never hit.
Each side will then proceed to interpret those claims as matching up a noob with a pro.
Name calling and ad-hominum will emerge in the later stage of the matchup, and will almost always result in a stalemate that doesn't reach a consensus somehow, despite there not being a huge difference beteween a 6:4 and a 5:5.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Well you've got me.
So the new one that's up now: Link.
I haven't fought but one Link, so I don't really know too much about this match-up. Just that his projectiles are generally annoying, his dair hits hard, and he has a good running Usmash.
So the new one that's up now: Link.
I haven't fought but one Link, so I don't really know too much about this match-up. Just that his projectiles are generally annoying, his dair hits hard, and he has a good running Usmash.
Okay,two weeks ago I actually fought a really good Link in a tournament (and lost the set) (I was told later that he's the best Link in the state). At the beginning of the fist match, I didn't know anything about Link and that his game revolved around projectile spam so I just randomly had the mindset that I was going to go completely defensive for this game, mostly utilizing firebounding and b-sticking. Well, I'm in auto-pilot for a while until I realize that it's a minute into the match already and we've both only taken about 40%. This is where I got really aggressive, which I probably shouldn't have... I'd say it's really important to remember to not go aggressive on campy/defensive characters like Link. As for the matchup... I don't really know, maybe if I thought a bit more about what I could do against Link and then got an opportunity to play him again but that probably won't happen. If I'd played defensively the whole match maybe I'd have done better.
Some things to remember:
* You can set the boomerang on fire, but this is mostly pointless afaik
* If you use PK Thunder while standing on the stage with the intention of hitting Link or something, he can use his gale boomerang to push you off the edge and KO you (no, this did not actually happen to me
)
* I'm assuming the gale boomerang can mess up a PKT2 recovery too, though I don't know how easy or practical that would be
* Powershield the projectiles if you decide to approach and he's spamming them (which if he's good he probably will be). Remember that if you powershield a bomb it will bounce upwards, going up to catch it is a set up for a free hit if you're within range... not entirely sure what to do here, maybe just ignore it or powershield it again?
* His best aerial for general use is probably bair... don't think that Link doesn't have any fast or strong aerials
* He has a boost smash (like Snake's mortar slide)
Overall I'd say it was a weird matchup but it was also fun to play since it wasn't really like any other characters I'd faced before. I don't exactly have any numbers for this matchup... it honestly depends on how quickly each player can adapt to eachother. Neither character has an overwhelming advantage or disadvantage in my opinion. Hopefully I can play a good Link player again, but probably not since they're so rare... I doubt many other Ness players will play a good Link.
Some things to remember:
* You can set the boomerang on fire, but this is mostly pointless afaik
* If you use PK Thunder while standing on the stage with the intention of hitting Link or something, he can use his gale boomerang to push you off the edge and KO you (no, this did not actually happen to me
)* I'm assuming the gale boomerang can mess up a PKT2 recovery too, though I don't know how easy or practical that would be
* Powershield the projectiles if you decide to approach and he's spamming them (which if he's good he probably will be). Remember that if you powershield a bomb it will bounce upwards, going up to catch it is a set up for a free hit if you're within range... not entirely sure what to do here, maybe just ignore it or powershield it again?
* His best aerial for general use is probably bair... don't think that Link doesn't have any fast or strong aerials
* He has a boost smash (like Snake's mortar slide)
Overall I'd say it was a weird matchup but it was also fun to play since it wasn't really like any other characters I'd faced before. I don't exactly have any numbers for this matchup... it honestly depends on how quickly each player can adapt to eachother. Neither character has an overwhelming advantage or disadvantage in my opinion. Hopefully I can play a good Link player again, but probably not since they're so rare... I doubt many other Ness players will play a good Link.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Best Link in the state? Lucky.Okay,two weeks ago I actually fought a really good Link in a tournament (and lost the set) (I was told later that he's the best Link in the state). At the beginning of the fist match, I didn't know anything about Link and that his game revolved around projectile spam so I just randomly had the mindset that I was going to go completely defensive for this game, mostly utilizing firebounding and b-sticking. Well, I'm in auto-pilot for a while until I realize that it's a minute into the match already and we've both only taken about 40%. This is where I got really aggressive, which I probably shouldn't have... I'd say it's really important to remember to not go aggressive on campy/defensive characters like Link. As for the matchup... I don't really know, maybe if I thought a bit more about what I could do against Link and then got an opportunity to play him again but that probably won't happen. If I'd played defensively the whole match maybe I'd have done better.
Some things to remember:
* You can set the boomerang on fire, but this is mostly pointless afaik
* If you use PK Thunder while standing on the stage with the intention of hitting Link or something, he can use his gale boomerang to push you off the edge and KO you (no, this did not actually happen to me
* I'm assuming the gale boomerang can mess up a PKT2 recovery too, though I don't know how easy or practical that would be
* Powershield the projectiles if you decide to approach and he's spamming them (which if he's good he probably will be). Remember that if you powershield a bomb it will bounce upwards, going up to catch it is a set up for a free hit if you're within range... not entirely sure what to do here, maybe just ignore it or powershield it again?
* His best aerial for general use is probably bair... don't think that Link doesn't have any fast or strong aerials
* He has a boost smash (like Snake's mortar slide)
Overall I'd say it was a weird matchup but it was also fun to play since it wasn't really like any other characters I'd faced before. I don't exactly have any numbers for this matchup... it honestly depends on how quickly each player can adapt to eachother. Neither character has an overwhelming advantage or disadvantage in my opinion. Hopefully I can play a good Link player again, but probably not since they're so rare... I doubt many other Ness players will play a good Link.
do you mean that he's a shell of what he was in melee?
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
yes.
10chars
10chars
Fighting anyone with may projectiles is a test of patience. You'll need to get close to fight Link or you'll just face his projectile spam so go on the offensive but don't rush in.
I will start off by saying you must approach Link by powershielding throungh his projectiles. When you get up close you need to read your opponents behavior and know when to attack and when to dodge. When you get up close see what options they will normally choose, this can vary but some may run away and set up more projectiles or attack at close range as well as a few other things. It all depends on the player you're facing.
If the Link player is good, they will spam with double arrow and the like to keep you at bay. Link and Toon Link players have a certain timeframe where they can throw two projectiles and not have any lag at the end making approach very difficult.
Powershield arrows and the boomerang and shield the bomb. When you shield the bomb it will bounce somewhat vertically but over towards them. This is helpful if they threw the bomb while approaching you. Doing this will limit their approach and options, sometimes stopping them completely.
Links boomerang can drag people across the stage on its way back. Some Link players may throw the boomerang to drag you to them so they can set up or do some attack easier. You can use his thrown boomerang to help you as well if you're not hit by it on its way out. Simply jump over the boomerang as it comes towards you then charge up a fsmash. As the boomerang comes back it drags you to the Link player and allows you to release the heavily charged bat for great damage and knockback.
Be sure to remember that Link has a Zair. Getting around it can be annoying and he can use it as a quick alternative when he does not want to do laggy aerials. Just space yourself well enough not to get hit by it and when up close try to read the player to see when they might use it and act accordingly.
Link has one of the saddest recoveries in the game. Gimp him.
I see this matchup being in Ness's favor.
I will start off by saying you must approach Link by powershielding throungh his projectiles. When you get up close you need to read your opponents behavior and know when to attack and when to dodge. When you get up close see what options they will normally choose, this can vary but some may run away and set up more projectiles or attack at close range as well as a few other things. It all depends on the player you're facing.
If the Link player is good, they will spam with double arrow and the like to keep you at bay. Link and Toon Link players have a certain timeframe where they can throw two projectiles and not have any lag at the end making approach very difficult.
Powershield arrows and the boomerang and shield the bomb. When you shield the bomb it will bounce somewhat vertically but over towards them. This is helpful if they threw the bomb while approaching you. Doing this will limit their approach and options, sometimes stopping them completely.
Links boomerang can drag people across the stage on its way back. Some Link players may throw the boomerang to drag you to them so they can set up or do some attack easier. You can use his thrown boomerang to help you as well if you're not hit by it on its way out. Simply jump over the boomerang as it comes towards you then charge up a fsmash. As the boomerang comes back it drags you to the Link player and allows you to release the heavily charged bat for great damage and knockback.
Be sure to remember that Link has a Zair. Getting around it can be annoying and he can use it as a quick alternative when he does not want to do laggy aerials. Just space yourself well enough not to get hit by it and when up close try to read the player to see when they might use it and act accordingly.
Link has one of the saddest recoveries in the game. Gimp him.
I see this matchup being in Ness's favor.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
I mess around with Link a bit...I'm not the best...but I know how to boost smash at least ^_^
Yeah...the Gale Boomerang can gimp you...and a Link can learn how to throw it right so that it has some control over where it goes...
It comes back to him a lot faster then Tink's does...he can throw it and send the wind after you...and then almost right away be able to throw it again...it moves that fast
The Gale Boomerang has one of the best pushing effect in the game IMO as well...but really the only other moves that have pushing effects are FLUDD, the Cape (Mario), Water Gun (Squirtle), WoI (Pit), Ganondorf's drop kick, Mr. G&W's uAir, Kirby and Dedede's inhale, and PSI Magnet (Ness)
I like Link's arrows more then Tink's as well...they fly 2 times faster for one thing...it makes it harder to send them back...overall I like Link's projectiles a lot more then Tink's...in fact...I'm more willing to try and bat Tink's projectiles back at him...with Link it doesn't work as well...
Yeah...the Gale Boomerang can gimp you...and a Link can learn how to throw it right so that it has some control over where it goes...
It comes back to him a lot faster then Tink's does...he can throw it and send the wind after you...and then almost right away be able to throw it again...it moves that fast
The Gale Boomerang has one of the best pushing effect in the game IMO as well...but really the only other moves that have pushing effects are FLUDD, the Cape (Mario), Water Gun (Squirtle), WoI (Pit), Ganondorf's drop kick, Mr. G&W's uAir, Kirby and Dedede's inhale, and PSI Magnet (Ness)
I like Link's arrows more then Tink's as well...they fly 2 times faster for one thing...it makes it harder to send them back...overall I like Link's projectiles a lot more then Tink's...in fact...I'm more willing to try and bat Tink's projectiles back at him...with Link it doesn't work as well...
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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- Aug 9, 2008
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updated
10chars
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Sheik at a disadvantage? I'd at least think she's at a slight disadvantage. I've got owned a few days back by Sheik while playing Ness and it isn't because I was playing poorly. While I did more winning, this Sheik was still able to get me down a few stocks. Also, perhaps this is just me, but after trying Sheik out for some time I found out she is pretty good at being defensive and she can make some pretty good combos.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
It it it it it.
I would like to add a few more tricks that I've seen it do to me:
- First, there's this trick with Vanish that can screw anyone over. What Sheik does is run off the stage and Up B. Vanish grants it invincibility frames, so if you're nearby and not dodging, you will get hit. Now here's the bad part: the wind effect it gets when it reappears (most likely on the ledge) will actually PUSH you back in the opposite direction of where you were just hit by the explosion, but you're still in hitstun - in other words, you can't move and your body is flying straight downwards. It's a brilliant edgeguarding technique, and I advise you to not even risk being in that area of the stage when recovering.
- Second, it's not easy/possible to lock Ness in the f-tilt lock at 0%... but Sheik CAN d-tilt "lock" you at 0%. I put it in quotations because I'm not sure if it's an actual lock, but it works similar to a lot of characters' d-tilt lock. Conveniently, it only takes about three kicks to put Ness in viable range to get f-tilt locked immediately after. Then at the end of the f-tilt lock, as I said before, it'll u-tilt or Usmash.
So... don't get tilted.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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Great post. I rarely play Sheiks so...
Gaussis
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2008
- Messages
- 903
I dunno...If the f-tilt lock is expected, escaping it by DI would be easier since you see it coming. But that is horrible if what you say is true.