Ok here we go
Its pretty easy to hop backwards and use PSIM. When Zelda hops towards u, she can throw an aerial out or use Dins Fire which are both pretty easy to read. Her aerials require spacing and timing, and they ARE predictable, so a little movement from will keep them generally safe. Short hopping back will keep u safe from those, but not Dins Fire. If th Dins fire comes, just use the magnet and lag cancel it. That's how simple it is. Its more effective than u think. It IS after all, a semi-mobile shield that can be used even in the air, better than moving and shielding.
Again, it works, but how often are you going to predict when she's going to approach with Din's or when she's going to use an aerial... or a running Usmash, or hell, even just nothing in general? This strategy requires that you can read your opponent very well, and I wouldn't give it that much credence just by the very nature of Ness's PSIM. If you predict wrong, there's a chance you can be punished. I'd rather not take said chance, but hey, if you absolutely, positively know it's coming, go for it.
Because it's harder to KO a Ganonthan a Sonic? Like I said, Zelda's KO moves are hard to place. It's even quoted in the backroom discussion thread as they require very fine placement. With speed and agailty, it WILL be harder to land that final blow on characters. Ness is also pretty small which also helps to some extent. You have to be pretty dumb to argue that a smaller character is not harder to KO than a big one.
Mobility =/= size
The fastest Ness players I've seen do not reach the speed levels of characters like MK who have great attack speed overall or Sonic, who has good mobility overall. Ness isn't special when it comes to landing KO moves. What's he going to do, hit and run? His dash is virtually the same as Zelda's, and he travels fastest using PKT2, while Zelda travels fastest with Farore's. The only agile things the two have, really, are start-up attacks on some of their moves. In comparison to each other, Zelda and Ness are virtually even in terms of when their attacks come out (except for on the ground, where Zelda's Dsmash, dtilt, and Usmash come out faster than everything but Ness's dtilt and jab, and those get outranged anyway). So, I don't see what advantage Ness gets here as opposed to everyone else.
If u just "throw it out there" like you said, you Ness can still DI downwards. Yes Ness can get hit with the final blow, but that will require you to hit him in the air near the center of it, a placement you wont acheive by just "throwing it out there." Nair probably trades hits with it also. Yes it has high priority. Fair is all Ness really needs though. Fair is too long ranged and long lasting to NOT win against the usmash. It will, and Ness players spam it. Dair yes trades hits, but so what? If they trade hits, Ness will be the one benefitting because of the nature of Zelda's usmash. Unless the Ness is stupid enough to dair down on a Zelda already doing the usmash, Ness will ony be taking one of the first few weak hits of the usmash which as you know are weak and then cancel the rest of the move. The Zelda however just took a dair to the face popping her up for aerial ****.
I'm sorry, maybe I shouldn't say "throw it out" because people will take me literally. If you see Ness approaching with anything that isn't a properly spaced fair, Usmash again and again and again. There's a *very* strict timing where nair will trade with Usmash, and that's around the beginning of Usmash against a nair that's directly on Zelda. Otherwise, Usmash wins.
Pretty sure I said properly spaced fair can beat out Usmash.
Also, I was wrong about something - dair doesn't trade with Usmash. Usmash eats it freakin' alive. Guess I gave Ness too much credit there by not actually testing it and believing that he had a bit of an extended hitbox there.
Wait wait wait, you're saying that even if you cant land onein a match, it doesnt mean it's hard to place? Wtf? It is hard to place. Many people say this, the backroom says it, but if you Zelda players want to consider it "easy" to land, go ahead. The sweetspot has a tiny hitbox and the range isnt anything too special. Ness will be outranging Zelda in the air with his own fair also.
Uh, no, I'm saying that just because someone who picked random and got Zelda can't get but one lightning kick off a match doesn't mean that those who train with Zelda can't get them off, either. Just like the C. Falcon players who were here that one time were saying that the knee isn't hard to place - it's just hardER when you compare Melee to Brawl. Sure, it's relatively more difficult to sweetspot it as compared to, say, Ness's bair, but it's not just flat out "hard."
Also, Zelda's fair reaches out as far as Ness's fair. It just doesn't have the large, multiple hitboxes that Ness's fair does, and it's disjointed. Fair/bair also outprioritize Ness's bair (and it outranges + outspeeds it) along with Zelda's dair going through uair, sweetspotted or not on all of those. Zelda's nair has invincibility start-up. Zelda's uair is obviously the most prioritized (disjointed) aerial here, alongside Ness's fair, perhaps.
Despite all of this, I still give Ness's aerial game more credit simply because his general sourspots get more done than Zelda's do.
k sure. Yeah, Zelda's ground game>Ness'
But I'd just like to add that her tilts arent that much faster than her smashes.
k
Wtf? PKF to dair works like a charm. Even some Zelda players know it and fear it. It's not Zelda specific either. It freakin works on Pit and Wolf. And I mistyped that, I doesnt ALWYS have to bea short hopped dair. As long as you can get over the fire.
Okay, you are completely misunderstanding me here. Im just stating that Zelda's specials do NOT give her a large advantage over other characters when it comes to juggling for Ness. He can juggle her almost as well as other characters. Should she warp down, wrapping PKT back down into Ness for a PKT2 escape or floorblast can save you. Besides, it's not like we're just use it on the ground wherever, You have to get smart with the juggling. One more thing, who said that we would HAVE to resort to PKT juggling?
Yes, PKF to dair does work, but only if you have the speed to pull it off. 'Gratz when you do.
Why do you and others who support Ness keep thinking that I'm arguing that Zelda has an advantage here? Why? All I'm saying is that Din's can just about always trade hits with PKT, Nayru's is obscure enough that it can reflect if you mess up (which I gave no credit to for being reliable in the first place), and that you can always warp (or hell, TRANSFORM) past it. If you hit her with one, chances are you won't be able to keep her so far away from the stage that a warp is definitely viable, thanks to Ness's downtime + start-up of another PK Thunder.
What else can Ness do? Jump/double jump and use PKT? Dash and PKT? No matter what you do, you're giving Zelda more time to get to the ground, and you really DON'T have a lot of time, even if she's a floaty character. If he can follow up with an aerial, good for him, but you won't keep Zelda in the air. The most I've ever done to a Zelda is about 77% with a chain of bairs and fairs, and he had many opportunities to break out... but he couldn't, thanks to WiFi. I don't see that ever happening against someone who has the reflexes (and the actual chance) to break out of those combos. A lot of Ness's juggling relies on the opponent not reacting properly, and at the most, you're getting 2-3 hits in these combos, usually two, and then it becomes one when they can no longer be comboed due to damage. Zelda isn't that much more susceptible to that as anyone else is.
Not to mention, Zelda has her own little technique where she can Nayru's right after getting hit and she'll boost in a similar way that Lucas's PK Jump works. So much for comboing there. I'm just saying that there's no distinct comboing/juggling advantage for Ness here.
Like I didnt know that.[/scarcasm]
God dont be so stupid with Ness either. We're not going to sit in an extra vulnerable position to get telefraged. Ness can simply jump to avoid getting hit also.
You can jump ahead of time, but uh... that's gonna do what for you again? Zelda can still do what I put there earlier, but now she can warp below Ness and Usmash or even uair. And... we know he can't jump during PKT, so yeah, PKT doesn't present a huge threat to Zelda.
I never said Zelda couldnt only warp up from a tailwhip. I meant after trying to get to the ledge, Ness CAN tailwhip her because she can appear in the tail if you keep it around there. After that, she will have to teleport up because she will be dropping below the ledge.
Do you know what it means for Zelda to sweetspot the ledge? That means when she reappears, she's automatically in the ledge-grabbing animation... meaning she's going to have invincibility the moment she reappears. You cannot do *anything* to her but grab the ledge ahead of time. The only way that would work is if Zelda missed the actual sweetspot but could still grab the ledge.
What... the... **** are you talking about!? I seriously have NO clue what you are adressing to because this was the response to my "Zelda is not impossible to grab" comment. Lol I've NEVER played a lvl 9 CPU anything so dont even mention that. And I never said I was pitting someone against Simna. How do u know ur not just underrating the Ness? I could say the same thing about you. Since when does Ness have to be in a stupid place with PKT to get punished for it like during a juggle or by being hit by Farore's wind? Since when do these "level 9 Nesses" sit still in their magnets wating to get hit with a physical attack?
Obviously I'm using your weak arguments in tandem with the things you act like are oh-so-difficult for Zelda to get. "Hey, it's not impossible to grab Zelda" does the same thing as, "Hey, it's not impossible to fair/bair/Usmash Ness" - all you're doing is saying that it can happen and, in some cases, that it happens easily. Would either of those give either character any credit? No.
Ness doesn't have to be stupid either. "Warp past it" means you're warping past Ness but not hitting him, obviously. "Warp into him" means the above + warping into Ness. I said that it's best to "warp past him", which means that I'm assuming Ness isn't usually going to leave himself open to a stupidly easy punishment... but hey, you say that Ness can "juggle juggle juggle" Zelda, while apparently Zelda can't fair/bair him because he's ZOMG FAST. That section I had up there was basically the way a lot of your logic is coming across to me.
You again are misreading me. I meant Zelda is not excessively good at gimping Ness and her character specific gimps arent something to fear. Anyone can jump into PKT, anyone can hit Ness after PKT2.
Anyone can juggle Zelda. Anyone can edgehog. Anyone can DI a poorly spaced Fsmash and Usmash.
The bolded is the only thing Zelda can do that most others cant, and THAT's what I mean by hard. You criticize me for playing stupid Zeldas, but now if you think that gimping Ness with Dins is easy, I'd say YOU are playing the stupid Ness player.
Lol, not once did I say it was easy to gimp Ness with Din's. I said it could be done, not that it was easy.
No Ness will leave himself so vulnerable to Dins. They should be craftily using their magnet in the air to stall their descent or using the bair to clank with the fire and stall until it dissappears. Yes it works, bair the fire, it doesnt hurt you, you pause in the air, and have enough time to PKT2 back. Ness can also just use an inversed PKT2 recovery to push the thunder away from the direction the fire is going.
Zelda can just wait until you get below the stage with your "mindgames" and use Din's. Or, she can take advantage of the fact that you're doing all sorts of things to try and get around a possible Din's and edgehog, and if you're too far below the stage, you're not making it back. Again, nobody said this was easy, but it can be done, just like the things you are saying can be done.
Dins fire against PKT2 may pose a minimal threat, but the timing will be strict, and a slight mistiming will lead to just popping Ness up. Ness can sned PKT farther away from himself to wait out the Dins fire or just take the hit. PKT2 has a flexible startup time, and PKT doesnt stretch the screeen which can make it hard to tell when Ness will use PKT2. If you are late with your Dins, it may just pop Ness up. You have to hit with it fairly early in the PKT2 which will be difficult to time if the Ness player doesnt act as stupid as you want him to be.
If Ness is going to make it back with PKT2, you might as well pop him up for extra damage, for one. Two, once again, nobody's saying that Ness can easily be gimped. Note how I said, "Since we're making the Ness be the best player in the world vs. this idiot Zelda, I'll name obscure things that Zelda can do to Ness for a gimp."
This means that it's not something that's so amazingly easy and effective to pull off - it means that using Din's is just an option, and not a popular one at that.
lol mmmmmmkay
I saw flames and fire coming a mile away since apprently Zelda players are pretty hostile, so dont mind me.
You read one post from Ryoko and you've got that mindset? Maybe Zelda players seem hostile to you because of things that you say about Zelda, like being "probably the easiest to PKTFE" or what have you. Pretty sure the Sheik players looked at you the same way with your posts on Sheik. It's not everyone else all the time, you know.
If you dont know where I was going with this since you apprently are pretty good at misreadin things, I was refferring to that oe quote where matchups can never be 100% accurate because one side will always post things about themselves without having played te excellence of each character every time. So if we can nver be 100% sure about whether it is or not, who should win?
So your philosophy is, "If you can't make it perfect, just yell the loudest to win"? We can't be 100% sure between you and myself, but we can actually make it better than this. The "winner", as you've put it, should basically be whoever is most accurate as to how fights go. Watch skilled Nesses vs. skilled Zeldas and see how the fights go, and then compare them to our arguments. Are they evenly matched? Does Ness use things that you've said to use? Does Zelda do anything I said that she could do? Are there any new strategies being used that can tip the favor to one or the other?
Basically, we're making on-paper arguments. You just look at what DOES happen in matches and basically use that as the most accurate thing about character match-ups, and I'm talking a mass amount of these fights. Of course, few people play Zelda vs. Ness fights, so we don't have a huge basis to go off of. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it the best that we could.
Just because some people in this thread say Ness is even on Zelda doesnt mean its true. Likewise, just because some say it is adv. Ness doesnt mean it either, but Im telling you what I think and what some of the SMART Ness players think. Some of the average ones I have noticed do agree on the 50-50, but others I know that do play excellent Nesses do agree on Ness having the upper hand in battle.
lol, typical argumentum ad vericundiam you've got there by saying that the smart and good players take your side and the rabble take mine.
I encourage Ness being played against Zelda because I think it is a good matchup. If you want to disagre on this go ahead.
Has anyone ever discouraged Ness vs. Zelda fights?
phew... feel free to flame some more/call me a "Simna vs. Zelda n00b guy/misread my post/argue etc.
Ok, sorry Mr. Angelic, optimistic nice guy, I'll go crawl back into my cave and brood some more like the evil person I am. (Not to be taken literally.)