PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

good post.

PKNintendo said:

Wow. Just wow. Kirby mains. Not a single insults/attack/auto Kirby matchup win (not dissing other character mainers) You guys are awesome!

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Yeah. We're cool like that.

Lets see now...Zamus...

Usmash/Plasma Wire to prevent top air approaches...but not much from the side...still...watch that...

3 air kill moves
fair's 2nd kick-mid power
bair-the same power as Samus' pretty much...actually it killed at 1% lower then that in my test...still...it is right at around the same power as Ness' and that isn't fun news (Ness kills at 122% and Zamus' kills at 124%) ok?
uair-the weakest one but really...it is only a bit weaker then Ness' though (my test has Ness killing at 122% and Zamus' kills at 144%)

Ness can absorb her Stun gun and her dsmash...so that sort of changes Zamus' play style a bit...

Ness can also kill her at lower %'s overall (I'll have to check more)

Actually I'm thinking 55-45 for Ness so far...

You can absorb her dsmash?

O_O

Well, Kirby week's done, I suppose I'll move on, since I know like NOTHING about ZSS >_>

I've thought about it for ten minutes and this is what I got...

Spam fair.

Fair spam is good...

I haven't had trouble with ZSS at all. Space yourself just outside of the Whip range, and if you play smart you should be okay. ZSS has a few combos, but it's always important not to get flustered, because she has a hard time killing if you steer clear of

1) getting stunned while your recovering, setting up her stage spike
2) getting stunned in general, since she has a kill move out of that
3) avoid getting Up-B --> B-air/F-air
4) don't be stupid and try to gimp her if she's in down-b range.
________

A few tricks that I've found that help against her
1) Practice your psi-cancel for absorbing the neutral B (a lot of ZSS like to follow that with a tether and you need psi-cancel to get out of it)
2) learn how to lead your arials into throws (f-air -> jab cancel -> grab)
^
ZSS is weak to throws
3) If you find her down-b'ing onto the stage a lot, space yourself for a f-smash. If she's catching you with that, I usually look for the down smash (facing backwards) or a pkt2 if I'm feeling luck
4) Goldfish memory
^
Seriously, ZSS has a lot of really beautiful combos that can lead into kill moves. It's important to remember that a lot about being a flashy character is just that, being flashy. Don't dwell on the crazy kill they got on you. That doesn't make them better, that's just how their character kills people.

For me Zero Suit is tough. Though you can absorb her down-B, they are sometimes so quick, you may not have time to Magnet or may do them unexpectedly. Though thats probably just me as with Ness, you need to Magnet before the attack begins as his Magnet as startup lag. I suppose its a matter of predicting moves.

I think you mean her down smash. Her down B is a spike kick flip jump thingie. Also, absorbing her down smash heals for a good 20% but that's more of a flashy and exciting way to punish a predictable opponent-not a staple move in a fight vs zss. I'd say it's mainly outspacing her whip, using dashing sheilds against her over b, and utilizing a LOT of grabs and fairs. Zss has a harder time than most i'd say in handling Ness's fair, she doesn't have too many options against it when being pressured by it. Also don't challenge her uair w/ your dair-it usually won't work and her uair kills at decent percentages when fresh.

Psi-Magnet gives both Ness and Lucas a huge advantage over ZSS. Stun shots and d-smashes can both be absorbed, and having great timing allows for punishment.

Why have'nt you guys thought of throws?????? these can set up easy kills,espesily for ness as he is a light charcter,zss dos'nt need her paralizer i dont use that as often as i used to as i perfer spacing and dsmash.She can beat ness i have never had a hard time with him,he pk fires i whip though it you get the idea don't toss numbers around untill you know.(im noit saying i know either)

You can absorb her dsmash? YES!

knightzy said:

Why have'nt you guys thought of throws?????? these can set up easy kills,espesily for ness as he is a light charcter,zss dos'nt need her paralizer i dont use that as often as i used to as i perfer spacing and dsmash.She can beat ness i have never had a hard time with him,he pk fires i whip though it you get the idea don't toss numbers around untill you know.(im noit saying i know either)

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Ness throws are better than Zamus` imo..... sure she has range but if she misses its got that horrible ending lag....also the actual throws are better, Ness` bthrow actually kills, ness fthrow lets you know where your opponent is gonna be, dthrow useful for chaining aerials, uthrow useful for juggling with aerials or PKT..... and can her downb even help her get away from pkt?
She might not need her pariliyzer but when you do want to use it Ness can absorb it which he probably will since its not that fast....dsmash can be absorbed too yes its true some people dont know about it because its the only smash ness can absorb(it would be so cool if he could absorb others :D)

PK Fire should be coming at you from a diagnol angle....grounded I dont know what you mean by whipping through it...

It doesnt matter if YOU have trouble with a character as much as the match up....i dont have much trouble with DKs but they have advantage or are even.......

knightzy said:

Why have'nt you guys thought of throws?????? these can set up easy kills,espesily for ness as he is a light charcter,zss dos'nt need her paralizer i dont use that as often as i used to as i perfer spacing and dsmash.She can beat ness i have never had a hard time with him,he pk fires i whip though it you get the idea don't toss numbers around untill you know.(im noit saying i know either)

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Your wrong on too too too many levels. Ness is HEAVIER than ZSS (weird I know) And his throws kill her easily. (again she's light)

knightzy said:

Why have'nt you guys thought of throws?????? these can set up easy kills,espesily for ness as he is a light charcter,zss dos'nt need her paralizer i dont use that as often as i used to as i perfer spacing and dsmash.She can beat ness i have never had a hard time with him,he pk fires i whip though it you get the idea don't toss numbers around untill you know.(im noit saying i know either)

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...
No.
Ness > ZSS weightwise
Ness >>>>> ZSS throwise


The thing Ness has got to watch for is that ZSS resides in her defensive air game quite a lot. Nair covers her really and is very good on the defense.

PKSkyler said:

PK Fire should be coming at you from a diagnol angle....grounded I dont know what you mean by whipping through it...

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I think he meant that ZSS (or Zamus whichever you prefer) can use Plasma Wire on airborne PKF. It might work, but I'm thinking shielding it would be a much better option. Or does he mean that ZSS fsmashes or uses her Side-B (I forgot its name) through the pillar on the ground?

Hasn't anyone done a ZSS vs Ness match yet?

I have done several nessvs.zss matches and i usally win i dont know why butsome ness's don't play many zsamus's because ther's not may of us.....

Ditto on above (except that I have like 0 ZSS experience).

thats why it's so good since there are'nt many zss it means i can go to a tourney and win(like i did yesterday YAY!!)and alot of players have little or no experience which can be a problem it's one thing to know another to see and take the attacks and moves.

I think that this match up is closer than it seems maybe a 60-40????

And no i did'nt come in here to get flamed,thats why i have so little posts over the timne ive been here i just said alot of people foget her thorow and they are very helpful,ness will be shilding alot so i was just throwing it out there,Thats it.

knightzy said:

thats why it's so good since there are'nt many zss it means i can go to a tourney and win(like i did yesterday YAY!!)and alot of players have little or no experience which can be a problem it's one thing to know another to see and take the attacks and moves.

I think that this match up is closer than it seems maybe a 60-40????

And no i did'nt come in here to get flamed,thats why i have so little posts over the timne ive been here i just said alot of people foget her thorow and they are very helpful,ness will be shilding alot so i was just throwing it out there,Thats it.

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Until you get better grammar/argument, I'm sticking with delicious cake mains opinion. The dude who made the ZSS matchup topic.

PKNintendo said:

Until you get better grammar/argument, I'm sticking with delicious cake mains opinion. The dude who made the ZSS matchup topic.

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Ditto for that. Anyways, why wouldn't you listen to someone named Delicious Cake?

PKNintendo said:

Until you get better grammar/argument, I'm sticking with delicious cake mains opinion. The dude who made the ZSS matchup topic.

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You could use a bit better grammar yourself...

Cake didn't make the ZSS matchup topic, that is Snakeee, and he has the matchup as a 50-50 i believe

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176928

The other matchup topic doesn't even cover Ness so I won't bother linking it.

I don't know the match enough to claim an advantage to either side, but Cake is greatly exaggerating when he gives Ness/Lucas a large advantage on the sole basis that you can absorb our stuns.

That's why I said that I think it is 60-40 because you can play well without stuns.It revmoves 2 of her main moves but, you still have lots of options.
@Pk Nintendo,Did'nt Snakeee make that topic? and I don't have bad grammer I was tired and typing on a wii board,honestly you can;t take a swipe at me for that,look at yourself you need better grammer,atleast I was tired and typing on a wii board,not just plain old bad grammer like yourself.
I better get back on topic,while snakeee said it was 50-50,no I think it's correct,as ness can absorb the stuns,Delicious Cake gave a huge advantage again I think this is wrong,on the sole basis of absorbing stuns,thats just not right.

I stand by what I said 60-40.

Adapt said:

I don't know the match enough to claim an advantage to either side, but Cake is greatly exaggerating when he gives Ness/Lucas a large advantage on the sole basis that you can absorb our stuns.

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Exaggeration is my middle name.

DeliciousCake said:

Exaggeration is my middle name.

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Delicious Exaggeration Cake it is then

Adapt said:

Delicious Exaggeration Cake it is then

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clearly.

aborb doesn't remove zss's stun game. it removes her charged neutral B stun and that's about it. Otherwise goodluck having the mindgames enuff to aborb an uncharged neutral B stun or her dsmash. The matchup is either 55/45 or 60/40 both in Ness's favor. Zss can outrange Ness but Ness can get in her face and combo her very well as well as killing w/ backthrow at 115%. My partner is one of the best zss mains in california (FadedImage) and just last sunday i had to knock him out in loser's bracket in order to advance (it's always a lose-lose situation when you fight friends). Ness has the advantage because of his ariels and the ease of which he can kill zss. Against zss's over B learn to dash-sheild well and u should be able to combat her very well..

ViceGrip said:

aborb doesn't remove zss's stun game. it removes her charged neutral B stun and that's about it. Otherwise goodluck having the mindgames enuff to aborb an uncharged neutral B stun or her dsmash. The matchup is either 55/45 or 60/40 both in Ness's favor. Zss can outrange Ness but Ness can get in her face and combo her very well as well as killing w/ backthrow at 115%. My partner is one of the best zss mains in california (FadedImage) and just last sunday i had to knock him out in loser's bracket in order to advance (it's always a lose-lose situation when you fight friends). Ness has the advantage because of his ariels and the ease of which he can kill zss. Against zss's over B learn to dash-sheild well and u should be able to combat her very well..

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She's lighter than Ness, so backthrow kills her early right?

yes, she's a lightweight (along the lines of marth/falco/sheik), generally if u have her at 115% she will die. Ness is a mid weight. perfectly middle of the weight chart to be exact. 115% is a pretty early kill. Plus if u land an uair on her she dies even earliar because she's a bit floaty along w/ being light.

ViceGrip said:

yes, she's a lightweight (along the lines of marth/falco/sheik), generally if u have her at 115% she will die. Ness is a mid weight. perfectly middle of the weight chart to be exact. 115% is a pretty early kill. Plus if u land an uair on her she dies even earliar because she's a bit floaty along w/ being light.

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there is no way a little kid should weigh more than a grown woman...

but he does....

Adapt said:

there is no way a little kid should weigh more than a grown woman...

but he does....

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It's the massive head.

GotenOnNimbus said:

It's the massive head.

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Thats what she said...

PKSkyler said:

Thats what she said...

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Gah. That's not funny!

^^^^^ heh heh, everyone needs to make a joke every once in a while :D

That's what she said.

What?

GotenOnNimbus said:

It's the massive head.

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I knew this was the reason.

Okay, let's break it down a little bit, since ViceGrip and I probably have some of the best experience in this matchup possible, I mean, we're freaking doubles partners, we play each other all the time.

Here's how I see it breaking down:

55 - 45 Ness's Favor

Aerial:
When Ness is above ZSS, he has to worry about getting poked at with the up-b or u-air, he can't always rely on the d-air to cover him. However, ZSS has to also be really careful not to carelessly approach that d-air, since it ***** worlds. When ZSS is above Ness, he's got the advantage, u-airs will **** ZSS and she has no downward facing hitbox that is good. However, in the event Ness tries to PKT harass, ZSS can d-air through the head of the PKT (tail will still hit her if it's improperly spaced) and thusly run straight into Ness.

Ground:
ZSS probably has the advantage as far as useful ground moves go. The problem is it's hard to get Ness in a situation where you're duking it out on equal footing. For the most part he will be short hopping aerials in your direction. Surprisingly enough, ZSS's grab is extremely useful in this matchup (most times it just blows). If a Ness tries to space an aerial by hitting the shield and then backing off to land, ZSS's grab range will allow her to still shield grab him, there's no outspacing it. Ness also has to watch out for retreating pivot grabs, since his short hop is fairly low and there's a good chance he'll get grabbed out of his approach. When ZSS lands a grab, she can aerially release grab combo him for a guaranteed u-air (10 dmg), and possibly a f-air (17 dmg, can KO). However, this still doesn't account for the super safe approaches Ness can do by short hopping a f-air and landing with jabs. There's basically nothing a ZSS can do against it.

Killing:
Ness has a pretty **** easy time killing ZSS. His b-throw is great and u-air does tend to kill fairly early. However, ZSS matches him in this regard. B-air can kill fairly early and Ness can be chased aerially easily enough for a u-air KO.

Edgeguarding:
ZSS can force Ness to recover high by tethering the edge (which result in a 'bounce' if Ness aimed for the ledge) which results in ZSS having a free aerial. However, on the flipside, if Ness properly predicts the tether when ZSS is recovering, there will be spikes a plenty. Luckily tether isn't ZSS's only option, and lucky for Ness, he won't often be in a situation where he's below the stage trying to recover (ZSS doesn't have anything that hits outward like that).

SOOO tl;dr version:
Basically equal everywhere, except Ness has much much safer and more reliable approaches.

Oh, and about psi-magnet: absorbing the gun just means that ZSS has one less spacing option, which means she'll just rely more heavily on side-b, no biggie.