Zero Suit Samus
Go ^_^
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Match-Up Discussion #19! Zero Suit Samus
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
- Status
Go ^_^
Snakeee
Smash Master
If you go to the ZSS match up thread there's about 3 pages of me and Emblem Lord arguing about the match up lol. I say it's even while he says it's 6/4 Marth. Both characters can actually **** each other pretty bad, which is why there will be a lot of bias in some posts. Any Marth that played a bad ZSS will say it's Marth's favor, and vice versa. It's going to sound like Marth has the favor here becaue A) This is the Marth board and B) There are very few decent ZSS players.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
Marths advantages:
- Can kill her faster
- Can Gimp her relatively easily
- Better aerial game
- Slightly heavier (I think, i hope...)
- Can juggle her with uair due to her terrible dair
ZSS's advantages:
-Better range on some attacks
-SideB is a great spacing tool and kill move if not spammed
-Better grab range
-Can mix up recovery to keep marth guessing
55:45 Marth IMO
- Can kill her faster
- Can Gimp her relatively easily
- Better aerial game
- Slightly heavier (I think, i hope...)
- Can juggle her with uair due to her terrible dair
ZSS's advantages:
-Better range on some attacks
-SideB is a great spacing tool and kill move if not spammed
-Better grab range
-Can mix up recovery to keep marth guessing
55:45 Marth IMO
Can't we use the same logic saying the ZSS boards are bias saying it is even because A) It's the ZSS board and B) there are very few decent marth players?
feardragon64
Smash Champion
That's the problem....and I suppose why he says "vice versa" =b
But yes, unfortunately Marth does NOT have a range advantage in this battle for once in his bloody life(close range that is).
If nothing else, it can safely be said that Marth shouldn't play this as he would a majority of the cast.
I haven't really played a good zs so I can't contribute much anywho. Except
LEARN TO CATCH ITEMS.
Those stupid armor pieces do way too much damage. Learn to catch them when she throws them.
Snakeee
Smash Master
there could be bias on the ZSS boards...but I tell it how I see it, and am not biased myself.
And I meant that there are very few decent ZSS players in existence.
99% of marth's suck. I know what you are saying though, and since the official match up chart in the Tactical Discussion requires both boards to agree.. shall we collaborate?
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Marth vs Zero Suit Samus is a somewhat close match, but Marth has a slight advantage here. ZSS does have some moves that outrage your Fsmash, so you need to watch your spacing and mix staying away and attacking quickly. Once you hit ZSS she is usually at a disadvantage because you have more priority then almost everything she has. You can keep the pressure on her and force her to retreat, where she cant do much anyway.
As said above, learn to catch items because her armor pieces are stronger then they look. You can easily have 30-40% if they all hit.
You should stay a little out of your Fsmash range and wait for an opening to attack. Space with f-airs but don't get in as close as you would with other characters, her Fsmash has good range, as well as other moves.
Marth has far more approaching options then ZSS, however her laser may be able to stun you if your not careful, but you can perfect shield it off easily (Im pretty sure you can jab as well). ZSS may be able to rack damage at a decent rate, however she does not have many strong attacks and will have a tough time finishing you off.
In the edgeguarding department, you can do a falling fair and grab the ledge as her up b will likely miss. Im pretty sure she can use her down b as well to recover as well.
I personally would say 60:40 Marth here, lack of priority and power from ZSS is the reason.
As said above, learn to catch items because her armor pieces are stronger then they look. You can easily have 30-40% if they all hit.
You should stay a little out of your Fsmash range and wait for an opening to attack. Space with f-airs but don't get in as close as you would with other characters, her Fsmash has good range, as well as other moves.
Marth has far more approaching options then ZSS, however her laser may be able to stun you if your not careful, but you can perfect shield it off easily (Im pretty sure you can jab as well). ZSS may be able to rack damage at a decent rate, however she does not have many strong attacks and will have a tough time finishing you off.
In the edgeguarding department, you can do a falling fair and grab the ledge as her up b will likely miss. Im pretty sure she can use her down b as well to recover as well.
I personally would say 60:40 Marth here, lack of priority and power from ZSS is the reason.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Well I say its even, and I'm not changing that. I'm one of the only people that have really played this match up at a high level. Here's my basic breakdown of the match up
Marth
- Strong advantage at close range. Demolishes ZSS with pressure after breaking through her spacing.
- has a bit more KO power
- much better grab game
- can stop Paralyzer shots with F-air and jab.
- can edgeguard well
ZSS
- Advantage at long-mid range. Spaces with Side B, and occasional Paralyzer shots.
- can up-air Marth's aerials out of shield.
- stonger air game.
- stronger edge-guarding.
- very versatile recovery.
- Good KO power
- Can KO with several different attacks.
....funny how some think the opposite of what it is >_> Like what Bengals said
btw Marth is one of my secondaries
Marth
- Strong advantage at close range. Demolishes ZSS with pressure after breaking through her spacing.
- has a bit more KO power
- much better grab game
- can stop Paralyzer shots with F-air and jab.
- can edgeguard well
ZSS
- Advantage at long-mid range. Spaces with Side B, and occasional Paralyzer shots.
- can up-air Marth's aerials out of shield.
- stonger air game.
- stronger edge-guarding.
- very versatile recovery.
- Good KO power
- Can KO with several different attacks.
....funny how some think the opposite of what it is >_> Like what Bengals said
btw Marth is one of my secondaries
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
QFT, There are so many Marths out there that have no clue what they are doing and then come here to find a few people who actually have any clue what they are talking about. It is kind of funny, and I won't deny that at one point I was like this, but I was just on a thread where people thought Marth's Fsmash was one of his bad moves. My Marth is pretty bad, but I like to think I kind of know what I'm talking about now, I sure as hell didn't when I joined though. There are under 20 smart Marth mainers on SWF, and I did not count people on the cusp.
I agree with all of that. But since Marth demolishes ZSS at close range how is this an even match? Side b is a real threat to Marth but that can't keep him out for very long. Once Marth is able to break through that and limit her options with his sword I can't see Zamus being able to do much.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
I definitely don't agree that Zamus has the superior air game
feardragon64
Smash Champion
The same reason Marth completely destroys other characters by keeping them at his range. Only a bit to a lesser extent.
It's almost a role reversal to a small extent for Marth. I would give this match-up a 55:45 Marth from what I know. Marth has a slight advantage because it's more likely for Marth to get in than it is for ZSS to keep Marth out. I suppose it basically comes down to that. But a good ZSS will be pretty effective with it so it's only slightly more likely that Marth will get in close.
On that note, non-tipped attacks are your friend =D(yay low knockback and staying in close). In theory anyways....
Snakeee
Smash Master
Well for one, against a top ZSS it's harder than you might think to break through. Like I said, if you approach from the air it's possible for her up-air him out of shield. And once he does break through, it's not like I said the stock is over. When she gets hit away, she can reclaim the advantage after recovering. It is easier for her to recover from the air because of the invincibility and momentum of down B.
Another thing i forgot to mention is that at absolute close range zss has the advantage with her 1 frame jab and also insanely fast up-tilt
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
ZSS's dominatrix playstyle wont help her here. The whip slightly outranges marth but marth is fast enought to dash in and wait for her to react (and hope she doesnt grab, which is a laggy move anyway). Lots of ZSS's moves are punishable if they miss (paralyzer, lots of her whip moves, etc.). Marth can up+B outta lots of her moves, then to top it all off, she can be edgehogged like a mofo. Im not saying ZSS doesnt stand a chance vs marth but typically if both players are of equal skill, it should be an uphill battle for samus and not marth.
Marth shouldn't be that close to get hit with that though, he won't be THAT close.
And while I see up air OOS being effective, will it still hit Marth if he spaces correctly? It doesn't matter though, I can't see Marth approaching through the air too much in this match without getting punished and relying more on a grounded approach. Specifically a shielding approach because Samus still has some lag on her range moves.
And while I see up air OOS being effective, will it still hit Marth if he spaces correctly? It doesn't matter though, I can't see Marth approaching through the air too much in this match without getting punished and relying more on a grounded approach. Specifically a shielding approach because Samus still has some lag on her range moves.
cman
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 17, 2008
- Messages
- 593
ZSS has easily the longest of the tether recoveries in the game, plus she has a third jump, and she can use up-b as many times as she wants, and using it while jumping gives her an extra height boost.
So how exactly can she be edge hogged like a mofo?
(Edited for clarification)
This, btw @ backlash.
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
My bad for not being able to find a decent ZSS on this freakin planet. And about her up B to neutralize marths air aproach, i cant see marth getting smacked by that with good spacing.
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
Hey, I've played against you once before at some tournament in CT, i got wrecked pretty hard. I'm going to Inui's tournament in 2 weeks, so i hope to see you there as well.
I have to say. From that one match where Snakeee wrecked me I can see what the advantages and disadvantages are. Zamus makes it VERY hard to get in. Snakeee was using his items as a brickwall, Paralyzer shots, forward B, and her lightning quick attacks to keep me at bay. True, once you get in all that you have an advantage. But gimping is also pretty hard, I must say. Her insane back air and her up B that you could always get spiked by are fairly hard to get by.
I'd say it's even, there just needs to be a lot more pro Zamus players. She is really underestimated.
How can you really base that match off anything if he is a much better player than you?
I've played at least a fairly above-average ZSS, so I understand the difficulties for Marth here to a degree:
Marth is trying to space, which is difficult for him since so many of ZSS's moves are quick (I know jab has been mentioned). I almost forgot to mention that Marth also has quick (typically defensive) options as well (DB, up-B OOS). Oh yeah, a smart ZSS can really keep you limited with paralyzer shots as well. Great control factor. It's an interesting match because Marth can typically outrange ZSS, but she can easily either attack quickly, or SH back and forward B. Marth's better bet is to usually play agressively, and varying the spacing so that he's not caught off guard.
Also, both characters are amazing at juggling. ZSS has good aerial mobility, so she can follow airdodges well and reset situations until there's a Bair kill if Marth isn't careful. Marth can just as easily juggle ZSS, and both characters need to take advantage of the fact that the others' Dair can be punished.
As for edgeguarding, ZSS can certianly use the tether as an extra tool to hurt Marth, but Marth, if he can read ZSS's down-B and up-B patterns, can fare about the same. For ZSS, it's all about learning to read Marth's SB recovery, DB stall, counters, and DJ Fairs. Both are adept at edgeguarding the other, but ZSS has more tricks to make Marth's job harder, in addition to Marth's recovery being tetherguarded at times. ZSS probably wins here.
I guess that's all I can note aside from a ratio:
60:40 Marth. (Probably 55:45 now that I rethink this)
I'm guessing no one seriously disagrees with this since it hasn't been quoted or anything yet. I'd like to know if I understand this matchup correctly ya know!
Marth is trying to space, which is difficult for him since so many of ZSS's moves are quick (I know jab has been mentioned). I almost forgot to mention that Marth also has quick (typically defensive) options as well (DB, up-B OOS). Oh yeah, a smart ZSS can really keep you limited with paralyzer shots as well. Great control factor. It's an interesting match because Marth can typically outrange ZSS, but she can easily either attack quickly, or SH back and forward B. Marth's better bet is to usually play agressively, and varying the spacing so that he's not caught off guard.
Also, both characters are amazing at juggling. ZSS has good aerial mobility, so she can follow airdodges well and reset situations until there's a Bair kill if Marth isn't careful. Marth can just as easily juggle ZSS, and both characters need to take advantage of the fact that the others' Dair can be punished.
As for edgeguarding, ZSS can certianly use the tether as an extra tool to hurt Marth, but Marth, if he can read ZSS's down-B and up-B patterns, can fare about the same. For ZSS, it's all about learning to read Marth's SB recovery, DB stall, counters, and DJ Fairs. Both are adept at edgeguarding the other, but ZSS has more tricks to make Marth's job harder, in addition to Marth's recovery being tetherguarded at times. ZSS probably wins here.
I guess that's all I can note aside from a ratio:
60:40 Marth. (Probably 55:45 now that I rethink this)
I'm guessing no one seriously disagrees with this since it hasn't been quoted or anything yet. I'd like to know if I understand this matchup correctly ya know!
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
Because he also did very well in the tournament, and I saw it being used for effect against the better players there. Trust me when I say it was a constant wall of something.
Regardless, i got a lot better since then so I hope to play this again when I see him next
EDIT: I think ZSS might have an advantage in this matchup just based off not knowing what do do, lol. This is certainly one matchup you don't see often
Did you manage to see him play a good marth? I'm not doubting he can't make a wall with Zamus' tools, but it's not impossible to get through.
And what kind of statement is that, ZSS has the advantage because you don't know the match up? wtf?
grandmaster192
Smash Ace
This is a match up I have a lot of experience against after playing Sparrow and another friend, both who are very good with her.
I think it's even, because ZSS can out space Marth, is faster, and has projectiles. Plus, she has some strong aerials that can get off-stage kills. If you're not careful, you can find your self fighting an uphill battle.
You'll have a hard time if you don't know the match up well, that's for sure.
I think it's even, because ZSS can out space Marth, is faster, and has projectiles. Plus, she has some strong aerials that can get off-stage kills. If you're not careful, you can find your self fighting an uphill battle.
You'll have a hard time if you don't know the match up well, that's for sure.
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
The statement was a joke, thus the lol. Though I do know of very few ZSS players in general, nevermind Zamus pros.
I don't recall seeing him play a good Marth. I'll see on the fourth, however, so if this topic is still alive then I'll hopefully be able to add more input.
Snakeee
Smash Master
You sir, are completely wrong here. ZSS is actually one of the hardest characters to gimp. She has plenty of recovery options, you've probably just played very few and terrible ones. The only way she can really be gimped without making a bad mistake is by being spiked. In fact maybe I should start money-matching people that think she gets gimped easily, because it's so laughable. I'm not surprised though, since even top players make this assumption at first. But, the only times I've ever gotten gimped with ZSS in genera, even against Marth, is when I made a stupid mistake which is very rare.
Edit: Oh you're the marth player I played at Reaper's Game, Punishment? Thanks for the compliment, and I admit you probably would have done better had you known the match up. Well I've also gotten a lot better since then, but so have you as you say. I guess we'll see about the match up at Inui's tourney. Maybe we should get matches recorded there so that ppl can see how the match up is played.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
Agreed with ^
Gimping ZSS is a pain in the ***. Skilled player or not.
As already mentioned, there's the issue of her three jumps and up+b that adds to height. Then there's the issue of approaching....if ZSS is below you and the edge, she can up+b you and it's an insta stock loss for you. If she misses because you air dodge, she grabs hold of the edge and gets her invincibility frames and can proceed to take whatever action she decides(she's basically more in control than Marth at that point).
Add that with her aerials and ugh, I don't even go off the stage for her anymore...
Gimping ZSS is a pain in the ***. Skilled player or not.
As already mentioned, there's the issue of her three jumps and up+b that adds to height. Then there's the issue of approaching....if ZSS is below you and the edge, she can up+b you and it's an insta stock loss for you. If she misses because you air dodge, she grabs hold of the edge and gets her invincibility frames and can proceed to take whatever action she decides(she's basically more in control than Marth at that point).
Add that with her aerials and ugh, I don't even go off the stage for her anymore...
undyinglight
Smash Journeyman
I agree with Snakeee, I also believe this match to be even. What do other ZSS have to say on this subject?
knightzy
Smash Journeyman
Firstly stop right now with the gimping.you are never going to gimp a good zss as she has so many recovery options,Plus while you are trying to gimp she can use one of her quicker moves(i have tested this)and kill you,people that get killed by gimping are increadably stuipid or just dont play well.
zss has the advantage as she can make a wall with her parts,get rid of marths down b and use her down throw to get into the air game.
65 zss: 35 marth.
zss has the advantage as she can make a wall with her parts,get rid of marths down b and use her down throw to get into the air game.
65 zss: 35 marth.
LOL. good one.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
- Messages
- 9,720
- Location
- Scotch Plains, NJ
- NNID
- ShinEmblemLord
- 3DS FC
- 3926-6895-0574
- Switch FC
- SW-0793-4091-6136
I have gimped Snakeee in tourney.
What now b*tch?
What now b*tch?
Snakeee
Smash Master
because I made a stupid mistake which is the only way like I said.
bludhoundz
Smash Ace
This matchup looks fairly even to me..
Both have very good aerial games.
Both have excellent spacing and GTFO tools.
ZSS has a recovery that goes further, but Marth can attempt to harass her while recoverying. I don't think ZSS can gimp Marth if he recovers low.
Both like platform stages, a lot.
In general I think ZSS actually outranges Marth, which is a mixup from the usual. However Marth still has a good rushdown game and can go toe to toe with the long range regardless.
Aerially I believe Marth has greater range, but not by a whole lot.
Marth is still a great punisher -- ZSS is pretty good too, especially since an extra 10% + can be racked on by using Dsmash before another move.
Marth has better shield pressure and responses to shield pressure.
ZSS is faster and has better mobility in general.
Both have very good aerial games.
Both have excellent spacing and GTFO tools.
ZSS has a recovery that goes further, but Marth can attempt to harass her while recoverying. I don't think ZSS can gimp Marth if he recovers low.
Both like platform stages, a lot.
In general I think ZSS actually outranges Marth, which is a mixup from the usual. However Marth still has a good rushdown game and can go toe to toe with the long range regardless.
Aerially I believe Marth has greater range, but not by a whole lot.
Marth is still a great punisher -- ZSS is pretty good too, especially since an extra 10% + can be racked on by using Dsmash before another move.
Marth has better shield pressure and responses to shield pressure.
ZSS is faster and has better mobility in general.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
- Messages
- 9,720
- Location
- Scotch Plains, NJ
- NNID
- ShinEmblemLord
- 3DS FC
- 3926-6895-0574
- Switch FC
- SW-0793-4091-6136
I stand by 60/40.
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
Edit: Oh you're the marth player I played at Reaper's Game, Punishment? Thanks for the compliment, and I admit you probably would have done better had you known the match up. Well I've also gotten a lot better since then, but so have you as you say. I guess we'll see about the match up at Inui's tourney. Maybe we should get matches recorded there so that ppl can see how the match up is played.[/QUOTE]
Yes I was, and you're welcome, you were amazing when I saw you then so can't wait to see how you improved
Can't wait to see about some matches if we do get to have them, although you would probably want to record with someone better like Inui, I don't want to embarrass the Marth community:embarrass
Yes I was, and you're welcome, you were amazing when I saw you then so can't wait to see how you improved
Can't wait to see about some matches if we do get to have them, although you would probably want to record with someone better like Inui, I don't want to embarrass the Marth community:embarrass
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
Marth hits ZSS off the stage
ZSS uses side B to get Marth off if he edgehogs if her down B, second jump, and up B aren't enough to make it onto the stage
At this point, after ZSS throws it out, can't Marth drop from the ledge, counter it, and then up B onto the ledge?
idk as I've never done the match before but if ZSS' side B either attacks or grabs the ledge like other tethers I imagine if the attack is the one that comes out you can counter it and she's screwed.
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
All else fails, u can let ZSS grab the ledge with her tether and jump off the ledge then up+b her into a stagespike or just bair her. If u do the up+b correctly then u could land on the edge of the stage and not have any fear of ZSS's teather keeping u from grabbing it.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Alright alright, I exaggerated a little bit. I'm not saying it's completely impossible to be done, and Marth is one of the characters that has the best chance of doing so. It is still very difficult though, and you would have to read the ZSS player perfectly. I don't recover the exact same way everytime, since ZSS can mix things up with recovery.
The only thing I don't like about recovering against Marth is it's not as good of an idea to down B footstool jump over his head while he's holding the ledge, since it's easier for him to ledgehop attack ZSS than others.
ZSS still has a much better edgeguarding game against Marth than he has against her though.
The only thing I don't like about recovering against Marth is it's not as good of an idea to down B footstool jump over his head while he's holding the ledge, since it's easier for him to ledgehop attack ZSS than others.
ZSS still has a much better edgeguarding game against Marth than he has against her though.
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
Lots of people can Gimp ZSS >.>
well maybe not Link or another Tether user, but still!
- Status