Match-Up Discussion #19! Zero Suit Samus

[Snakeee]

Nope, only times it really happens is if ZSS lost her second jump and down B, or gets spiked. I admit she's pretty vulnerable if sent off the stage after losing those two, but it doesn't happen too often if the ZSS player makes holding on to them a priority.

 

[FBM]

This is one of my favourite matchups because my brother plays Marth and I play ZSS. There's lots to talk about here and it's late so I'll only throw out my thoughts on one area of the matchup (in general, I would call it even or 55/45 Marth at best - player skill is determining this one far sooner than character attributes and there are **** scenarios that go either way).

I definately agree with Snakeee that ZSS has the better ledgeguarding game: it's possible to stand outside the range of Marth's upB thru the stage and still be in dsmash range. This forces the Marth into a predictable pattern b/c his options up the ledge are SEVERELY limited. When ZSS is on the ledge, as long as you are smart, you can stay outside of his range(s) and abuse SideB, neutral B, and uair until he gives you an opening that lets you back up (and this isn't something that can be dismissed - Marth can do things to negate one of these, but it opens him up to at least one of the others). DownB up the ledge is very risky, but you catch them, it totally turns the tables. Basically, when Marth is on the ledge, ZSS controls his options, and when ZSS is on the ledge, she controls her own options.

I should add though that what I'm saying assumes you already have the ledge - Marth is definitely more dangerous to ZSS before she gets the ledge than she is to him before he gets the ledge (though it's not walk in the park getting back against her either).

Oh, for approaches, I think the one my brother uses best against me is timing the block on paralysers and sideB's, then SHing above my grab range with a f-air right in the deadzone that zss has around 45 degrees in front of her. If I try to SH a counteraerial, the f-air gets me. I have been caught off guard by SH'd shieldbreakers occaisonally too. The only option I really have against that is blocking (which gets me grabbed if I don't perfect shield) or rolling backwards.

Approaching ZSS along the ground with Marth is not the best idea in my experience. Patience with shields + grabs + Dsmashs + paralysers really interfere with Marths approach. Rolling behind a dancing blade usually means a dsmash combo and shielding too early gets you grabbed.

And approaching ZSS from above is a BAD idea; my favourite spot to be (other than ledgeguarding) is underneath someone. She has a hugely disjointed upsmash and upB, moderately disjointed uair, and very fast utilt, all of which set up another hit. You want to come through her deadzone, push her back to the ledge, force her to try and get over you to safety, at which point you attack her from underneath, (her most vulnerable spot) try to rack damage before she can land and hopefully get a KO in the process.

 

[knightzy]

ZSS will alwaysw have advantage like i said i think it's 65;35 bgut it could be 60;40

 

[grandmaster192]

Marth is perfectly capable of approaching ZSS both in the air and on the ground.

Fair and dtilt are perfectly safe in this match up assuming their spaced correctly, and ZSS is not going to be able to shield grab Marth consistanty because her grab is too slow. The only reliable out of shield moves she has are her jab and dsmash. Most of the time Marth will be safe on block in this match up unless you decide to take risks.

Watch out for her side b though. It's her best move and it's good for spacing. ZSS' like to jump backwards then throw this out with perfect spacing. This will out range all of your aerials, so it's important that your own spacing is just right. You want to close enough to where this move won't mess you up, but far enough to where you're still behind your sword and not right next to her. Because if you get too close, her aerials can hit you. She has good aerials, but their not disjointed or anything, so your sword will out priotize them.

2 important thing:

She's not Ivysaur. YOU CAN NOT GET FREE GIMPS! Don't make the mistake in thinking so. I did against J.Sparrow and he ended up kicking me off the ledge for a stage spike. And if you run off the stage stupidly, that third jump can spike you. Also, the kick part has a lot of prioty, and her whip can take you with her and you both end up dieing if you stage on the ledge too long.

At the start of the match, please don't get caught off gaurd with her items.

 

[Steel]

ZSS will alwaysw have advantage like i said i think it's 65;35 bgut it could be 60;40

For someone who said "ZSS takes away marth's counter" as your reasoning I don't think anyone can take you seriously.

 

[grandmaster192]

There's no way possible ZSS has an advantage vs Marth. It's either Marth or even, but most likely in Marth's favor IMO.

 

[BacklashMarth]

To get the best analysis of this matchup we probably should look at what their optimal situations are, how easy it is to get into them, and how easily ur opponent can get out of them. I think in general it is easier for marth to get out of ZSS's optimal situations, however, you could probably argue that she has an easier time getting into hers.

 

[FBM]

Marth is perfectly capable of approaching ZSS both in the air and on the ground.

Fair and dtilt are perfectly safe in this match up assuming their spaced correctly, and ZSS is not going to be able to shield grab Marth consistanty because her grab is too slow. The only reliable out of shield moves she has are her jab and dsmash. Most of the time Marth will be safe on block in this match up unless you decide to take risks.

Like I said in my post, approaching through the air in ZSS's deadzone is by far the best thing Marth can approach her with. But you are mistaken about the ground.

ZSS's dsmash outranges Marth's dtilt (yes, it's true) and is a good spacing tool against Marth because of this. In addition to that, you can paralyzer shot Marth while he tries to dtilt or better yet, start a dash backwards and immediately go into a sideB, increasing the distance between you enough to keep ZSS and stick her whip in Marth's face. And Marth's dtilt is in ZSS's grab range (though that's probably the worst of the options here).

ZSS's dsmash is also not really an OoS move - the little bit of startup lag it has isn't ideal for close range. All of ZSS's tilts are useful OoS. Utilt is especially nice after a spot dodge, but I guess she has to be careful spotdodging Marth b/c of dancing blade.

And you underestimate her grab; it has horrendous lag if it misses, but it actually comes out pretty quickly for a tether grab and punishes people who shield too much just fine. I tend to use my grab so infrequently as ZSS, combined with the laser/whip spam, that people get used to putting their shields up a lot and forget that her grab is there. You could always shield intentionally to bait it though, spotdodge, and tipper a fsmash. Yay mindgames!

Oh I just remembered: if ZSS sees Marth coming with a f-air in time, she can dash back and pivot grab him as he's about to land. It doesn't negate that approach, but it's at least something against it.

I dunno what someone was saying about Marth's counter, but a perfectly spaced whip does outrange it (not that it really matters... ZSS is too far away to punish the counter, so nothing really happens).

A good mixup against her would be a hopped somewhat charged shield breaker. The angle it slides in with the priority it has can be used to penetrate ZSS's defenses very nicely.

And I agree that this matchup is not to ZSS's advantage, but I think the lack of exposure this character has really makes people discount her. She's not a one-dimensional spacing spam character and her only good moves are not just sideB and dsmash.

 

[Steel]

ZSS's dsmash outranges Marth's dtilt (yes, it's true)

Hmm? Are you sure you didn't hit Marth's hand as he leaned in to dtilt? I always thought a freaking jab outranged that.

Oh I just remembered: if ZSS sees Marth coming with a f-air in time, she can dash back and pivot grab him as he's about to land. It doesn't negate that approach, but it's at least something against it.

A Marth won't be (shouldn't be) landing right on top of his opponent after he fairs. He would stay safe and DI back. If you dash backwards you're just resetting the situation which is fine.

 

[Snakeee]

ZSS' D-smash is about the same as Marth's F-smash, though probably very slightly less. It beats Rob's F-tilt.

Oh and like I said before, if Marth does stay in the air with his F-airs ZSS can up air him out of shield.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

for Someone Who Said "zss Takes Away Marth's Counter" As Your Reasoning I Don't Think Anyone Can Take You Seriously.

Bahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha

 

[FBM]

Hmm? Are you sure you didn't hit Marth's hand as he leaned in to dtilt? I always thought a freaking jab outranged that.


A Marth won't be (shouldn't be) landing right on top of his opponent after he fairs. He would stay safe and DI back. If you dash backwards you're just resetting the situation which is fine.

I stood the two side by side in training and inched them closer together. Now I know Marth's dtilt can move him forward, so I made sure I didn't move him when testing the edge of his range. Every time he was just barely too far away to land the d-tilt (again, making sure that he didn't move forward after it), ZSS's dsmash would still land on him w/o fail.

I understand the DI back on the f-air and the pivot grab is still possible iirc. That's the beauty of that long grab range: if the opponent is committed to something, it's ok that it's not instantaneous. I believe my brother's used his f-air so that he lands in his own grab range, so if I shield the f-air, he can grab me right afterwards (power shielding would probably get around this though).

Oh and like I said before, if Marth does stay in the air with his F-airs ZSS can up air him out of shield.

Good point. This matchup just keeps getting harder to theorycraft the more I think about it lol.

This is kind of case in point why I think this is an even matchup - the difference between a safe and dangerous approach comes to down to the exact amount of DI and timing on your attacks and whether or not your opponent reacts perfectly: there is no room for error in this one.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If Marth tipper fairs ZSS's shield she can JC uair.

I'm doubtful. Someone needs to test. As far as I know the only 100% safe thing for her to fallback on as shield pressure is side b and bair.

D-smash is nice, but not that fast. Moderate in speed. I doubt ZSS is gonna want to fall back on this unless the Marth is already sitting in his shield and she wants to pressure. and it's completely spaced. need to check if it can be SHed over as well.

Anyway ZSS's side b doesn't even hit on the frame it fully extends. It hits during the flash at the end of the whip. It's one of the few moves that you can shield fairly easily on reaction and you might PS quite a bit without actually trying. But then ZSS could mix it up with grabs to make it a guessing game which would force Marth to start spotdodging or rolling.

 

[FBM]

If Marth tipper fairs ZSS's shield she can JC uair.

I'm doubtful. Someone needs to test. As far as I know the only 100% safe thing for her to fallback on as shield pressure is side b and bair.

D-smash is nice, but not that fast. Moderate in speed. I doubt ZSS is gonna want to fall back on this unless the Marth is already sitting in his shield and she wants to pressure. and it's completely spaced. need to check if it can be SHed over as well.

Anyway ZSS's side b doesn't even hit on the frame it fully extends. It hits during the flash at the end of the whip. It's one of the few moves that you can shield fairly easily on reaction and you might PS quite a bit without actually trying. But then ZSS could mix it up with grabs to make it a guessing game which would force Marth to start spotdodging or rolling.

I agree that dsmash is better as a spacing tool. I believe that around the peak of a SH you are out of the hitbox on the dsmash, but it definitely can hit people who are just starting or finishing a jump (probably 1/4 or 1/3 of ZSS's height off the ground is my estimate).

If a Marth f-air is going to be countered by a ZSS shield then u-air, I would assume you would have PS the f-air or you are going to get pushed back. I'm wondering if a f-air that is a bit more in front of her would allow Marth to land before the u-air could come out (but I guess a grab would get him anyway then). A spotdodge -> utilt/dtilt (depending on the range) might also work as a defense to the f-air approach (if Marth was high enough, would 2 f-airs in a row get through this?).

I hate how ZSS's side-B spacing turns into a formality sometimes... if you play against her enough, it really is easy enough to shield. But as you say, that's where her mixups need to start happening. More empty shorthops, maybe dashing in when they expect you to be spacing. Anyway, this isn't the ZSS boards, so I'll stfu.

 

[Ulevo]

Marth has the advantage in this match up. ZSS normally relies on her seductive spacing tactics to seduce male opponents. This however does not effect other Samus, Peach, Zelda, Sheik or Marth. This automatically puts ZSS at a disadvantage.

 

[Steel]

i'll put it at 55:45.. for now

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, to me, ZSS' zoning isn't too great, because at long range all her stuff is PSable. At mid range, we can strike harder. At close range, she's screwed because her grab is BAD.

I'd settle for 50:50 on this one. I'm totally with Snakeee.

 

[-Nana-]

I would say this matchup is pretty even. I saw some people say it's easy once you break Zamus' spacing but that's not true since she's quick and can fallback after being hit. Her jabs and dsmash are awesome close range attacks as well. She can recover with sideb up b and downb along with her great DI making her hard to gimp. Marth can kill her much quicker though than she can him and his speed and great grabs make up for the spacing issue. Marth can definately punish Zamus easily with side b fair grabs etc. I also think that Marth's air game is better than hers.

I would say that she has over Marth is ledgeguarding. Especially with her dsmash. Marth is a character that sometimes over shoots the ledge if the player messes up or if he's too close which makes an easy dsmash>bair against the stage for Zamus. The one thing that might push Marth ahead of her IMO is that she can be counterpicked stagewise more easily than Marth since you can pick a level with a low ceiling and wide walls. Some levels like Frigate with weird ledges also work well depending on the skill level/knowledge of the player.

All in all I would have to say it's an even matchup and it's probably a safe assumption to say 90% or more of the people in this thread have never played a good Zamus and I'm willing to bet that if they did more people would claim an even matchup or side with ZSS.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I really can't see it as even when I just look at their tools. She has about 3 or 4 reliable moves. That's it. She is better at spacing and has better ledge trap options, but Marth has better pressure, better punishers, better frame traps, better throw set-ups, he is a much better killer and heavier. Overall I would say he has the better movelist. Running speed is equal IIRC.

She has some nice combos which is great for damage racking, but nothing else she has is substantial enough to make it even IMO.

She can save her side b for killing, but then what is she going to space with? Bair? Marth's moves have equal range to that or more depending on the attack. And overall she has less safe moves then him. She has Bair and side b. That's it.

No, I feel comfortable giving Marth the heads up on this.

 

[FBM]

I really can't see it as even when I just look at their tools. She has about 3 or 4 reliable moves. That's it. She is better at spacing and has better ledge trap options, but Marth has better pressure, better punishers, better frame traps, better throw set-ups, he is a much better killer and heavier. Overall I would say he has the better movelist. Running speed is equal IIRC.

She has some nice combos which is great for damage racking, but nothing else she has is substantial enough to make it even IMO.

She can save her side b for killing, but then what is she going to space with? Bair? Marth's moves have equal range to that or more depending on the attack. And overall she has less safe moves then him. She has Bair and side b. That's it.

No, I feel comfortable giving Marth the heads up on this.

EDIT - Sorry for typing so much; I love thinking about matchups because it makes me think about my character critically and gives me new ideas.

"3 or 4 reliable moves" is an unfair assessment imo. ZSS has lots of very good moves, but just b/c they are good doesn't mean you can lead into Marth with them. She has to lead into him with her spacing game and try to only allow him through it when she can punish him with the rest of her moves.

Just to talk moveset for a sec: her dash attack, all her tilts, her u/f/b-airs, her jab, neutral B, side B, up B, d-smash, and u-smash are all useful moves, but not in all situations or matchups - they each have a time and place though, so knowing when to use them is the key and why it doesn't look like the best moveset on the whole; the blessing of using these moves is it removes decay on her side-B. If you space for a bit, then brawl with her other moves for just long enough, you can bring your side-B back up. And b/c her edgeguard game is so strong, you don't always have to straight-out KO with the side-B anyway: getting them off the stage to a proper edgeguard is often good enough (chasing with a side-B off the stage is also very low risk and an easy kill if it lands; if it doesn't, it can often mess with recovery plans and lead to a gimp).

I totally agree that Marth has a better overall game than ZSS. He's way more well-rounded, no question. But if you look at all the "games" you listed there, the one that's imposed first is ZSS's spacing game. Marth can't pressure, punish, or throw set-up before he addresses the spacing. I know the spacing can be predictable, but it is sort of a mindgame of its own: you have to keep worrying about it b/c if you don't, you are going to get clipped. And it when you get a little too used to being spaced that ZSS stops spacing and utilizes the rest of her underrated moveset (her grab can be a good way to get this going - it's easy to forget about it b/c it's rarely used and it may not combo into anything, but it positions nicely). As kind of a side note, I'd say ZSS has better mindgames (or maybe she is more reliant on them?).

As far as killing goes, when I play this matchup (and I have played it probably close to 100 times), there are times when it's hard to kill Marth, but there are also times when he has trouble killing me; the difference in weight and KO power (which I think you underestimate on ZSS) is offset by ZSS's ability to play very strong defense. She should be able to stay out of tippered fsmashes early - yes, they happen, but so do 40-60% gimps of Marth b/c of armor pieces (that shouldn't happen either but stuff that shouldn't happen does once in awhile) - and the higher her % goes, the more she can fall back and try to exploit aggression, which is something she does well. Marth can pressure her very well, but it has to be calculated pressure or you will get grabbed or dodged/PS'd into a tilt.

To close: I'm fine with 55:45 Marth just because he's a little less hot and cold than ZSS, but I just can't see this as an "advantage" match. I feel like the better player takes this, not the better moveset (the person better versed in the matchup could steal this though - a Marth who's never met a good ZSS might be taken aback, while a ZSS who is used to being underestimated might be surprised at a Marth who knows her tricks).

And I understand that you (Emblem) are the more experienced smasher in this discussion, so I'm willing to yield out of respect for my betters (but I don't think I'm a scrub... I'm able to keep up with a local guy who has placed 2nd to 5th in regional tournies a number of times anyway) Pardon any poor assumptions I make about Marth. My brother (who plays all this Marth that I play against) and I are very equal in skill and we are always very close in this matchup, so that might be why I feel it is so close. When I say I know Marth well, it's more like I know his Marth well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I know all about ZSS's capabilities and her moves. When I talk about her moves it's in regards to this match. The moves that will make up the meat of her game in this match are side b, neutral b, bair, dash attack, uair, and her jab combos. Also her grab too I suppose, but that's generic to everyone so I didn't mention it at first. Out of these only bair is solid spammable shield pressure. Even neutral b isn't difficult to deal with. Dash attack is also unsafe and not too reliable. I talked about her side b before.

In terms of raw killing power Marth wins out and he is heavier so he can live longer. ZSS has to fallback on gimps more then Marth which is fine, since she has a solid edgeguarding game.

Her spacing really just consists on one move. Side b. That's it. One move isn't enough. Especially when Marth is equal in speed and mobility. I THINK her aerial movement is a bit better, but I could be wrong. Marth is much better up close. No question. He really limits her options at that range and puts her on defense.

When I look at the match-up I see that she has some range and some nice combos. But Marth is better where it counts, so I tip it in his favor. If she was heavier or killed better then I would call it even, but that's not the case. I don't think Marth demolishes her since her side b really does help her out and it's the main reason why he doesn't wreck her IMO. But one move is still just one move.

 

[-Nana-]

FBM- As far as the characters go in general Marth is clearly better. If you're playing a smart Marth with good DI he should be difficult for you to kill and also unless the Marth you play is wasting his kill moves(fsmash in particular) then it shouldn't be a problem killing ZSS.

Emblem- Marth is also gimped FAIRLY easily, not always, but if the character has a good air game which Zamus does then he may be in trouble. Like you said she is good at comboing and dsmash, neutral b, bair and dtilt have decent/good range as well besides side b. Now, I'm not sure which of those if any outrange which of Marth's attacks and by how much because I haven't really looked into those specs yet but I may do that now. I give it an even match because even if she does spam one of those kill moves for spacing the other can be fresh for a kill and her good air game allows Marth to be chased out as well. IMO when it comes down to it her stuns, range and air play make up for her weakness and the pressure Marth can apply, enough to make it even anyways.

BUT to me it's pretty clear that the learning curve for how ZSS is played is much more difficult than it is to play Marth. Other than that a Zamus player needs to be pretty spot on with their gameplay against a Marth of an even skill level to not get punished and win. Now if you want to take this into account as well as the stage thing I mentioned earlier as well, I would have to say the fight is in Marth's favor but as far as movesets and mechanics etc. goes I still have to say it's even.

 

[FBM]

FBM- As far as the characters go in general Marth is clearly better. If you're playing a smart Marth with good DI he should be difficult for you to kill and also unless the Marth you play is wasting his kill moves(fsmash in particular) then it shouldn't be a problem killing ZSS.

Ya I've conceded a few times that Marth is far more well-rounded (hence being on top of high tier while she's in the middle of mid tier). And it's true that if Marth lands his kill moves, ZSS is dying pretty early, but my point was her playstyle can make it very tough to land those attacks on. And I know saying "don't get hit by smashes" is both obvious and not always possible, but it's a hell of a lot easier with ZSS vs Marth than it is with a character that HAS to fight him within his own range.

 

[Snakeee]

I think ZSS is high tier, but Marth may be a little higher...please don't take the current tier list so literally -_-

 

[Emblem Lord]

SBR tier list FTL.

*ignores the fact that I'm in SBR

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

But you said you didn't participate in the discussion.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Indeed I did not.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Ok that's what I though. Why did you choose not too? Your arguments are always so good you could have moved Marth up to Top! That list is jankadocious without your input.

 

[Pierce7d]

Emblem Lord would not have moved Marth to the top, because like I, he does not believe Marth is top tier, and will kindly direct you to the MK boards if you're looking to play the top character.

Besides, you can't adjust the tiers. You can only discover them. So far, we've discovered nothing that makes Marth better than MK, Snake, D3, G&W, or Falco IMO.

 

[Steel]

Marth can also compete with every top tier character and beats two of them in a match up. The reason he isn't top tier is because he doesn't have a lot of **** match ups like all the top tier characters do. Just look at the match up index, look at all the 60:40s. Marth beats a lot of characters, but doesn't really **** many where as the top tier characters do.

If Marth had a spammable/safe kill move... top tier.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Emblem Lord would not have moved Marth to the top, because like I, he does not believe Marth is top tier, and will kindly direct you to the MK boards if you're looking to play the top character.

Besides, you can't adjust the tiers. You can only discover them. So far, we've discovered nothing that makes Marth better than MK, Snake, D3, G&W, or Falco IMO.

Marth can also compete with every top tier character and beats two of them in a match up. The reason he isn't top tier is because he doesn't have a lot of **** match ups like all the top tier characters do. Just look at the match up index, look at all the 60:40s. Marth beats a lot of characters, but doesn't really **** many where as the top tier characters do.

If Marth had a spammable/safe kill move... top tier.

Personally I don't think Marth should be top tier, but on the SBR tier list he should be, because just look who is up there. Falco!!! Seriously, if Falco is there, Marth should be too. On a good tier list he should not be there though. I agree with Steel's point about **** matchups though. That is true definitely.

 

[Steel]

Like I said, falco's chain grab and also lasers give him a ton of huge advantageous match ups and is why he is top tier.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I guess... it still pains me too see him higher though, but I have no say in it, so W/E.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth > Falco.

True facts.

 

[Pierce7d]

Marth > Falco.

True facts.

In that match-up, or vs the cast? (and when I say the cast, I really mean the rest of the top and high tier, because that's really all that matters.)

I'd say Marth beats Falco, but lasers are just too sexy.

 

[-Nana-]

Marth ***** Falco pretty bad. He can't be CG'd and he can 0 > death combo Falco. I agree the SBR tier list is kind of lame, the high tier in particular. I think top tier is has the right characters but needs rearranging.

 

[Snakeee]

I think both Falco and ROB are a bit overrated. Marth and maybe even ZSS might be better than them. I also think ROB gets ***** horribly by ZSS, to the point where it could even drop him a spot or two on the tier list.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I've done the Marth/ZSS thing many a time over and I have to say that it's a closer match than it looks like it should be on paper. Side B is a very annoying problem. Being a SHFair happy marth will find you eating this move so much it isn't even funny. Her Uair out of shield is a great punisher of any poor spacing as is her "speed lightning" jab. If she ever hits you with her paralyzer you're guarenteed to eat two Dsmashes and a throw or an UpB or an Usmash (Upb can be comboed multiple times with improper DI.). Her DownB spikes you out of arials, Up B can spike you out of a hog and still grab the ledge after so -always- fast cling to the ledge for the invincibility when she is coming back with it. Trying to chase her off the ledge with Fair can be dangerous as she can Forward B through any of your arials and at lower heights this could of course stage spike you.

However, Marth can pressure ZSS hard. Once he's inside her range, she'll be forced to fight him off with Jabs. Admittedly these are faster than...well everything he has. But they can of course be shield grabbed and once you begin to punish ZSS she'll have little opportunity to set back up her spacing game unless she catches you off guard with a Down B. Marth can stick to straight up KOing instead of trying for the Fair gimp constantly if he wants to play it safe, since he can kill ZSS at much lower percentages than she can kill him. Most of her kill will be in the air, so that is where to guard yourself the most. Really, while I feel Marth might have a bit more trouble with ZSS, he can pressure her so bad up close when the player knows how to read her moves (they actually telegraph very obviously in most cases), he should win. I'd say a 60:40/55:45 for Marth.

 

[Pierce7d]

I dunno, I really feel like Counter plays a good role against such Zamus' sideB, especially if she's spamming it as a zoning tool.

 

[-Nana-]

Counter becomes easily predictable and should not be used multiple times if at all IMO.