Weekly Match-up discussion 6: Snake

A basic overview of the advantages:
Snake

Projectiles
Godly uptilt and ftilt
Less start-up on important moves
Disjointed hitboxes
Better priority
Nice recovery
Bair's interesting hitbox
Traps
Good weight


Ganondorf:

Hits like a Bus full of fat people
Some powerful early combos
Recovery can be harrassed and gimped.



A few questions that should be explored in this match-up (others may be added in the course of the discussion):

I'd say a 70:30, Snake has an obviously advantage from first look, but at the same time Ganon has moves in his arsenal that can help him against Snake.

Snake's cypher is rather easy to gimp, all the way to the point where you can actually Murder Choke it, Snake will lose his cypher and fall to his death, but Ganon still gets his jump back and everything else. But if you want, you can also Ganoncide Snake by grabbing him and not his cypher with a murder choke.

Our jab is a follow up for the Flame Choke which is a good thing and the ability to Detonate mines with Utilt is just sick. I could be easily wrong on this but I think we can completely shut down a good majority if not all mindgames that Snake utilizes with his mines. Since now you can detonate them, rather quickly I might say with Utilt while at the same time spacing yourself away from it. Also, if Snake happens to be in the range of that blast, of which reason I would have used the Mine Exploder in the first place, it actuallys forcibly brings him downwards, I'd assume from the wind affect of the Utilt. This only works at low percents though

This puts Snake easily at the range of Utilt, but at the same time he can still evade it. But, a wrong move and Snake could see the end of a burning smoking flames. But the point is you’ve taken one of Snake’s prime mind game potentials and almost completely turned it against him. I’ll be honest, I wouldn’t know how often to use it, but I think when you can, you should use it.

Like the Diddy Kong match (Or how we kind of assume the Diddy Kong match would be) It’s important to take control of Snake’s own weapons and use it against him, by that I mean the old grab the grenades and do some glide tossing and what not. Snakes Projectiles can be a pain but that doesn’t mean you can’t do jack about it.

Snake's ground game is obviously very good but I think, once again could be easily wrong, but I think Ganon's aerials may work just as good as Snakes aerials, perhaps even better.

1.) Many of Snake's aerials can't be SH Auto canceled. Dair, Nair, Fair, Bair. Only Uair can be SH autocanceled. Take that to Ganon's Bair, dair and Uair which can all be auto canceled. I will make the point though that Snake can auto cancel some attacks from a full hop jump which is already a pretty short jump.

2.) Many of Ganon's aerials not only have less lag, but also less start up. These includes Ganon and Snake's Fair, Uair and Nair. Though Nair is very close.

3.) Ganon has his sick tipman spike, Shot hop Dair-Usmash combo, his *new* SHFF Kick/Punch.


That’s all I have to say for now.

70/30 sounds right. I think the matchup is slightly closer though.

Approaching Snake is the main trouble. If you do it wrong, you will get F-tilted, and it will suck. His F-tilt has more range than yours, does more damage, and comes out faster. Yeah, it's dumb. I'm pretty sure however if he F-tilts your shield, you can D-tilt him before he can do other moves.

And you're going to have to approach anyway since Nades are gay as hell. You can counter his grenade shielding with Chokes, and I'm pretty sure grab SA will save you from nade explosions. Don't forget, Jab is guaranteed on Snake from Choke.

Ganon is probably one of the better characters at capitalizing on Snake's recovery. This is one of the main things that keeps this matchup winnable for Ganon. If you F-tilt him off stage, this is your chance to hit him hard with a F-air or D-air. He definitely won't like that. I don't know if it works, but is it possible to Midair Choke him and let the Cypher knock you out of the grab so that Snake falls to his doom?

Oh and Snake is also pretty gay to Ganon's recovery at the same time. U-smash is annoying as hell to get around since it will beat your Up-B.

I'd say Ganon's air game is better than Snake's. Learn to juggle him and punish his air dodges and you will own.

if i ever play a different character than Ganondorf, I counterpick him for Snake because I know the match up so well. take it to the air, gimp him like mad, glide toss nades, it's a good time

80:20 is just too high, but I feel 60:40 would be too low. At best this match could be a 65:35 at best, and worst 70:30.

Down tilt is pretty key I think, outranges his F-Tilt if only slightly. Keeping him in the air is also key. Pop him up with a Thunderstomp or something of the like and try your ****dest to keep him up there. I get the feeling that something has got to out prioritize his mortar slide (Flame Choke comes to mind) but I haven't played a Snake in a while to test it out with. Just a thought.

A2ZOMG said:

70/30 sounds right. I think the matchup is slightly closer though.

Approaching Snake is the main trouble. If you do it wrong, you will get F-tilted, and it will suck. His F-tilt has more range than yours, does more damage, and comes out faster. Yeah, it's dumb. I'm pretty sure however if he F-tilts your shield, you can D-tilt him before he can do other moves.

And you're going to have to approach anyway since Nades are gay as hell. You can counter his grenade shielding with Chokes, and I'm pretty sure grab SA will save you from nade explosions. Don't forget, Jab is guaranteed on Snake from Choke.

Ganon is probably one of the better characters at capitalizing on Snake's recovery. This is one of the main things that keeps this matchup winnable for Ganon. If you F-tilt him off stage, this is your chance to hit him hard with a F-air or D-air. He definitely won't like that. I don't know if it works, but is it possible to Midair Choke him and let the Cypher knock you out of the grab so that Snake falls to his doom?Oh and Snake is also pretty gay to Ganon's recovery at the same time. U-smash is annoying as hell to get around since it will beat your Up-B.

I'd say Ganon's air game is better than Snake's. Learn to juggle him and punish his air dodges and you will own.

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Actually yes it is possible. Like I said in my previous post f you grab the cypher with a murder choke it cancels it out, Snake falls to his death but Ganon actually gets his jumps back and what not. Pretty sweet.

I actually manage against Snakes quite well with my Ganon. They say Smashville is good for Snake but anytime I go there agaisnt a Snake I manage on top. I do sometimes setup for the old "Flame Choking on the platform so he falls down and I D-Air him" (I got to think of a better name for that

Gleam said:

Actually yes it is possible. Like I said in my previous post f you grab the cypher with a murder choke it cancels it out, Snake falls to his death but Ganon actually gets his jumps back and what not. Pretty sweet.

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WOW. Just wow. This is SO good to know.

65:35. This is one time Fairs are REALLY easy to land. Also pretty easy to spike him. Ftilt does horrible things to Ganon, though.

Agreed on 35-65.

And yes, really good to know that Aerial Murder Choke kills the Cyoher

Yes I'm going to have to change my thought to 65:35 Snake advantage. It's much closer than I thought. I'm kind of thinking it may even be closer than the Wario's match, in which we had a designated 60:40.

And I actually made a small mistake with my first post. I thought you had to hit the cypher, but you can either hit the cypher (A must do I would say if you want to an easy KO without losing a stock yourself) Or you can Ganoncide Snake by Murder Choking his actual body instead of his cypher. Choice is yours really.

Bit late to this.

I'd say this is far more even than people give it credit for, alot of people think otherwise but to me this is a 60:40 at worse and as much as even 50:50 at best though probably more edging towards 55:45 in Snake's favour.

For one thing Ganondorf has more comboes on Snake than he normally does on any character due to Snake's bouncing off the floor and general heavy weight and bad aerial ability. I've managed various FC/Throw comboes which can rack up an instant 0-50% and theres pretty good room for variation.

I'm pretty sure Snake is the other character Ganny can do an instant 0-60% simply with a triple Thunderstorm. Dedede is the one I'm absolutely sure it works on, once you DAir the penguin once he can't react in time to another two and is too heavy to be punted upwards.

Snake's Cypher alone is basically a free kill for Ganondorf due to FC gimping as mentioned and the fact DAir's disjointed hitbox lets it hit past the buffered armour part of Snake's Cypher. Anytime Snake even comes off the ledge is capital punishment he is extremely vulnerable to all of Ganon's kill moves and edge chases. Lets not forget how nasty a UAir can be to Snake who tries a high recovery to avoid the DAir.

Snake can also gimp Ganny but it requires noticeably more work than Ganny who is basically a one hit wonder. The main threat from Snake is probably a FAir which does carry risk for him too.

Interestingly is that if you DAir Snake while on the ground near an ledge during certain moves. For some reason the game registers him as off the platform and spikes him round the edge of the ledge. I think it might be due to the way he bounces off the ground and his general large body frame. I know for a fact the same thing happens to anyone when they're climbing/rolling up a ledge.

The main advantage Snake here has is his projectiles and stage control but one has to wonder how much that means. Only real projectile to be worried about is a double grenade throw which requires setup, normal grenades will be auto grabbed by a Thunderstorm or a SH UAir or you can do the manly thing and punch them away. C4 are normally reserved for recovery, Nikita missile is a joke and you'll only see it being used to gimp your recovery. But Ganny is about patience and holding your ground to begin with, stage control doesn't mean much to Ganny since he isn't able to get around fast enough to begin with so has to control what he has.

The real worriesome thing here is Snake's close combat options, Mortar Slide is a nasty approach but nothing I can't see a SH BAir or FTilt out of shield can't deal with but its still fast. Utilt I think actually outprioritizes or outranges Ganny's DAir and aerial Wizkick and his Jab combo is demonically fast and strong. Neither however is exactly happy about facing someone who can smack them around as easily as they can do it to them. Of course Snake has his FTilt, but Ganny has his double DTilt to FTilt or Jab in this scenario as a viable combo and the DTilt about matches Snake's FTilt in range.

I'd have to agree with Shadow Nataku. This match is very close to the point that unless Snake's advantage over us is so great that it requires a definte advantage in someway, this match should be neutra or at the very least a 55:45. I'm comming to the realization that this match is too close.

This match is close, yes, but you seem to forget some Snake's freaking options, as field control (better than Ganondorf's) with grenades, mortar etc, his tilts (really, if you fail at approaching, you surely take a tilt in your face).

Hum... Personnally my Ganon manages to do well against the Snakes i've faced... However, i think that a Snake that knows the match-up (By example that he haves to spotdodge the >B, to fear Ganon's Dair...) would be a little advantaged.

60-40 Snake for me.

We should invite some Snake's users here.

[EDIT : I just read Shadow Nataku's post entirely... I'm gonna have to think to this match-up again... ^^]

Shadow, that was great work. As an experienced Ganondorf who has had few match-ups vs experienced Snakes, all that intel really helps. In my experience vs Snake in the past, I've almost always fared entirely too well, but I lack the repetitive experience necessary to see what truly works consistently. A huge help, Shadow. Let's get some Snake players in here to push this discussion back and forth a little bit.

I use Snake and this is 6:4 in Snake's favor. Why? the Nikita. Most Snake players don't know this but the Nikita can be used for more than edgeguarding. The Nikita, when used correctly, can stop all of Ganondorf's approaches. While the dash attack and Wizard's foot(during the last part of the move only) can knock it upwards, if he drops it during hitstun, you will still get blown up. You shouldn't give him room to use it on the ground.
Snake does get destroyed by the Flame Choke when he uses Cypher. This is why very good Snake players Cypher AWAY from the stage, most of the time out of your range and C4 himself really high. With good DI,
Snake can use C4 like this until about 135%. Snake will most likely air dodge to avoid an uair or bair. If the Snake player doesn't know that, punish him.

Hey, thanks for the invitation, came all the way over from snake boards to here(lol)
But seriously, grenades are your biggest concern in this match-up. As ganon is a fairly big target and is tall, snake players you throw cooked grenades at you at every opportunity. Grenade counter also will be a pain to deal. Be careful with moves with too much lag, snake can punish them with a stick if he is close enough(c4 stick goes through shields too, so be extra careful), and by doing so, he can end your stock at very early %'s. Snake can crawl under wizard's foot, and immediately f-tilt to any direction. Ganon's advantage lies in the fact that he can gimp snake's recovey easily, but most snake's will try to recover high to avoid that. Ganon also has a poor recovery, that can be easily gimped by snake, who has a lot of edgeguarding options. Just be careful not to be hit near the ledges. If you grab the ledge, snake you try to cut your options down, by planting a mine/c4 or leaving a grenade by the ledge, shooting mortars up, and using nikita/nair/bair if you try to jump. be careful with that, it can be fatal for ganon!!
I'll post more later, hope it helped.
this match-up is 70:30 for snake in my opinion

Edit: I've just read the post above, and I want to say: Don't relax, taunt or do whatever if snake is over 135% and c4's him up. He can aim to the stage and try to tech, and it would be terrible for you to be punished after that

I'm tempted to say that this match-up is a 70-30 for Snake, but I'm not sure because I generally pull out my Yoshi against Snakes.

I'd like to know wether the ftilt is safe against ganondorf and the dtilt is safe against Snake, and the range. This would go a long way in deciding this match-up. Because realistically we're talking about attributes, but not how they'd be applied in a high-level match-up, and those facts are crucial.



To begin, Ganondorf MUST approach, Snake has a versitile projectile, lets go from there.

Snake has two projectiles, 3 kind of with his Usmash, but that's basically mortar sliding and approaching.

These include his rocket launcher and his grenades. Rocket luancher should not be a problem for Ganondorf when it comes from keeping Ganondorf from approaching on the ground for obvious reasons, but his nades spell a different story.

In my mind, due to how the grenades work it is not hard to approach Snake distance wise, but it is dangerous because you've gotta keep a constant lookout on the grenades and how the Snake user utilizes them. I mean, it does take a bit time for those nades to set off right? It's not like Falco right? Who can send a constant bombardment of lasers that completely space you out.

Snake's ground game is better than Ganondorf's, it might not be a great advantage, but with his Ftilt, Utilt, Mortar Sliding and all that, Snake is very dangerous on the ground. (Not that Ganondorf isn't)

But, and of course I (and anyone else I sure) would like to comment on Snake's air game. I and some other Ganon mainers have come to the conclusion that Ganondorf has a better air game. Nothing big perhaps, but a small advantage nonetheless.

wtf? wth @ the ganon boards...Ganon stands no chance against Snake whatsoever. all snake has to do is walk away Ftilt and everything ganon has is done. he gets ***** beyond belief

JesiahTEG said:

wtf? wth @ the ganon boards...Ganon stands no chance against Snake whatsoever. all snake has to do is walk away Ftilt and everything ganon has is done. he gets ***** beyond belief

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Ya know... when we were posting that we wanted Snake players to give their input, this wasn't really what we had in mind.

ftilt's giant hitbox defeats everything Ganon can throw at Snake. A smart Snake will always be able to hit your first out of everything you go at him with.

Ganon's >B = Snake's utilt or ftilt.
vB = really well timed utilt or crouch to dtilt.
utilt = stick/fsmash
aerials = utilt or ftilt

Oh, and...

everything --> grenades. Pure and simple. Yeah, Ganon might be able to gimp Snake easily, but he has to get him off first.

JesiahTEG said:

wtf? wth @ the ganon boards...Ganon stands no chance against Snake whatsoever. all snake has to do is walk away Ftilt and everything ganon has is done. he gets ***** beyond belief

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Well, you can't exactly just throw out the F-tilt randomly since Ganon can punish the ending lag of that with a Flame Choke or Wizard's Foot.

Dash attack clashes with it too I'm pretty sure, giving Ganon a chance to get close with a shield, and if Snake tries to F-tilt Ganon's shield, Ganon can punish with D-tilt. Snake doesn't have an amazing grab to rule out this situation for Ganondorf.

Now vs someone like MK, yeah, it's probably impossible to reliably get inside his range.

Sure, this matchup is bad, but it's not without options for Ganondorf unlike vs MK.

Mortar slide is way to fast to stop on reaction, on prediction maybe, but it definitely can't be stopped on reaction. Getting onto the edge is much more of a b*tch for Ganon than actually grabbing it. Cooked grenades are nasty, and shield dropping them while still in Ganon's hands is annoying, so sometimes catching them really isn't the best option. Gerudo can help nullify a lot of his projectiles, and if you're willing to take the damage for positioning, grabbing him during mortar, setting a mine, or when he has a grenade is actually a pretty viable tactic. Ganon's air game is definitely better than Snake's. Snake's aerials have good range and pretty good priority, but a lot of them are situational, slow, have just as much lag as Ganon's, and his two multi hits can be DI'd out of and punished pretty easily.

Snake's heaviness and large awkward hitbox definitely works out in Ganons favor though. Getting a stomp off destroys Snake and can tack up a lot of damage on him, and Ganon isn't as easy to KO as a lot of Snake's other opponents. It would be better if I could have a guaranteed d-tilt out of Gerudo on him though -_-.

Ganon can seriously get bogged down when on the ledge though so watch out...seriously it's annoying. Mortars, mines, and nikitas all help with making sure Ganon doesn't get back on the stage. Jumping out is way too risky for snake though. As far as destroying recovery, Ganon wins. D-air, Gerudo gimping, grab gimping, f-air...every single one of Ganon's attacks go right through cypher. Hell, if you get a Gerudo>jab near the edge of the stage at earlier percents, that can easily be a stock off of Snake.

Snake's not to be underestimated...but neither is Ganon.

Thanks for the help jesiah. F-tilt has a giant hitbox and is very good, but it can be punished. Not to mention Ganon can clash with marths smashes with his f*cking tilts and jab, his priority is not to be underestimated. AZ2OMG is right I'm pretty sure, DA clanks with snake f-tilt. People need to play a good Ganon and realize you can't just sit there and shut down everything.

All I can say is that this match-up probably isn't 60:40, more like 70:30.

What stage can you guys recommend against Snake? I've had trouble against him on Yoshi's Island (Brawl).. He just stood under the platform and camped his way to victory. xD

So, what kind of stage gives Snake trouble and Ganondorf an advantage?

I'd say 65:35 ...As for stages I'm not sure. Anywhere Ganon could do well, snake could do equally well. I don't think stage choice makes up a big factor in this match up. Battlefield? Smaller stage, easier to get snake to the edges for Gerudo>jab>edgeguard. Oh, maybe frigate could work well, but really it works against Ganon just as much as it does snake.

Thanks you Snake mainers for coming here ^^

But seriously, some of you still underestimate Ganon And i'm not sure you've read all posts before you ^^ By example this one : http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5518336&postcount=13.

But you're right on a point : Snake has an advantage on controling the field. (Nikita, Grenades, Mortar Slide)

F-Tilt and UTilt are predictable, and as A2zommg statted, you can punish them with FTilt / DTilt Out Of Shield, or maybe even a Flame Choke oos (Flame choke = >b).

So basically, Shadow Nataku resumed what i would have to say (Ganon can easily combo Snake by example with thunderstorm, etc), but was wrong on a point :

Eternal Yoshi said:

Snake does get destroyed by the Flame Choke when he uses Cypher. This is why very good Snake players Cypher AWAY from the stage, most of the time out of your range and C4 himself really high. With good DI,
Snake can use C4 like this until about 135%. Snake will most likely air dodge to avoid an uair or bair. If the Snake player doesn't know that, punish him.

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Anyways, thanks you again for your input ^^ Personnally i think this match-up is 60-40 Snake. 70-30 is not taking in account the fact that Ganon is heavy, and that Snake is not the best character to gimp him... And is generally underestimating Ganon's defense^^

I didn't neglect the C4 point, I did touch very briefly in the earlier post on the fact Snake players will reserve C4 purely for recovery. Especially in this matchup where Snake is vulnerable with the Cypher he'll always be forced to C4 his way back onto the stage after getting enough height with the Cypher.

However I did neglect something that I think Eternal Yoshi earlier pointed out. Cancelled Nikita severely restricts Ganny's ability to use the Flame Choke, it comes out surprisingly fast and will detonate on Ganny's FC. Although interestingly I found if you punch the Nikita head on with a Jab it causes Snake some lag in cancelling the move oddly and the missile will miss you altogether but that will rarely ever happen if never. The more common scenario is old man winter eating an explosion.

Something else interesting I neglected to mention but I worked out why Ganny's DAir sends Snake round the platform edge and can spike even he's on the platform. Simply put Snake is sent at a diagonal angle downwards away from Ganon's body, so basically the reason Snake flies round the platform is the game registers him as travelling sidewards as well as down.

It seems to be unique to only Snake and it means Ganny can Thunderstorm Snake towards the edge and DI does jack**** all because DAir is too powerful. The general height required to see this effect seems to be one full jump into the air. The easier way to see this is simply Thunderstorm Snake 3 times in a row about two paces away from the ledge, you'll notice that the third one always sends Snake diagonally downwards and he always edges forward after each hit.

So, what kind of stage gives Snake trouble and Ganondorf an advantage?

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The usual stages Ganondorf does well on I guess in theory Norfair, Brinstar, Delphino Island and Great Sea/Pirate Ship as usual.

I don't think there are really many stages that do give Snake trouble he's rather versatile like that being the technical character he is. So any stage advantages will have to come from Ganny's side. But I think you don't want to take Snake on in small stages so that rules out Yoshi's Island, Halberd and Smashville especially ones with platforms since as I recall Snake's USmash will combo on Ganny, its really hard to DI away in time.

Final Destination however is fine and Battlefield too. The edges of Battlefield are very thin so you can actually ^+B underneath the ledge and Ganny will punch through the platform and still grab the ledge which is useful as it avoids any potential USmash mortarheads. Also multiple platforms gives Ganny abit more leeway for escaping from Snake's advances and camping.

EDIT:

To begin, Ganondorf MUST approach, Snake has a versitile projectile, lets go from there.

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Interesting thing I just wanted to throw out since I just saw that. Ganny's lagless full hopped NAir's can be used to approach in this matchup, he is actually able to connect with both of the kicks on Snake straight from the ground.

A2ZOMG said:

Well, you can't exactly just throw out the F-tilt randomly since Ganon can punish the ending lag of that with a Flame Choke or Wizard's Foot.

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Remember, he doesn't have to do both hits... the first hit has very little ending lag.

Interesting thing I just wanted to throw out since I just saw that. Ganny's lagless full hopped NAir's can be used to approach in this matchup, he is actually able to connect with both of the kicks on Snake straight from the ground.

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Good to know, is it safe on block?

adumbrodeus said:

Good to know, is it safe on block?

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Iwould hope so since its multi-hit and can be DI'd away with and seems to be quite difficult to grab him out of. Not to mention to perform a lagless NAir means you basically keep your 2nd jump so you can quite easily do a lagless UAir, DAir or a second NAir.

But I'm not 100% sure myself. I'd rather someone else test it to be safe.

Oh fun little combo I just discovered on Snake for an instant 0-53% ish damage. DAir -> Grab -> DThrow -> Stutter Step FSmash. Ganny actually recovers fast enough and the stun lasts long enough so Ganny can grab Snake out of mid-air. I actually like this combo more since theres a low chance of error.

Yes, the Full Hop Nair is pretty much safe, you can even use your second jump to simply jump away your opponent.

Are you sure that you can grab Snake out of Dair ? I'll test it, but i think that a little bit of DI would just bring that little error...

Pretty sure you can grab snake out of D-Air against all DI except up, same goes for a lot of other characters.

Oh, I thought of a counter stage that might potentially be pretty **** good...Rainbow Cruise ...seriously, think about it. Keeps Snake in the air a lot, which is definitely not where he belongs, limiting a lot of his tactics (mortar sliding, mortars, dash attack, his defense in general.) He's forced to keep moving and keep in the air. I like eet

Yes, Cruise is a terrible level for Snake, but it definitely doesn't help Ganon out either...and then all it'll come down is to massive knockback hijinks, which can be really iffy.

I'd prefer to fight Snake on level ground.

It's really not that terrible for Ganon. He definitely suffers due to his recovery, but he can keep up with a pretty good air game. On cruise, you just have to be able to control all the platforms well, as well as know where the good positioning is. Plus you have a couple areas of level ground if you really need to have it. It helps Ganon, but he definitely doesn't need it. It hinders Snake a lot more than it hinders Ganon, but I guess it all comes down to if you're comfortable on the stage or not.

adumbrodeus said:

Remember, he doesn't have to do both hits... the first hit has very little ending lag.

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Sure about that? I'm pretty sure that the low ending lag of the first hit is mainly IASA frames into the second hit. Using just the first hit alone, it takes considerable time to recover before you can perform a different action. Maybe a little less time than recovering from the second hit though.

I guess it makes things a bit less predictable mainly since it comes down to Ganon letting down his shield at the right time and punishing.

As for stages, definitely avoid FD. This is one of Snake's better stages since it makes it easier for him to edgeguard you since you do not have platforms to help you maneuver around his attacks. The lack of platforms also means it's significantly harder to juggle him reliably or avoid his explosive traps.

I'd say RC hurts Ganon less than it hurts Snake. While Snake may be the character with better recovery, it's not well suited to this stage since it leaves him in a state where he's vulnerable for a significant amount of time due to his Up-B being slow and easy to intercept. Also thanks to the moving stage, Ganon can CAMP Snake since he's not forced to run into his explosives.

DRaGZ said:

Yes, Cruise is a terrible level for Snake, but it definitely doesn't help Ganon out either...and then all it'll come down is to massive knockback hijinks, which can be really iffy.

I'd prefer to fight Snake on level ground.

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Side Note to the Snake Discussion: Cruise is great for Ganon against characters not named Meta Knight. Perhaps it's personal preference, but I excel on Rainbow Cruise like few other levels. I think it's because every character is required to approach just as much as anyone else. Projectiles are not spammable, planting mines is essentially useless, chaingrabbing is significantly nerfed, stage scarring can happen all over the place, and dair/tipman opportunities are plentiful.

Pretty good information, that 0 - 53 % combo is pretty interesting

I fight Tapion ( A Snake user, top 10th in the Aib ladder), almost everyday over Wifi, and obviously this match up is more then bad.

Well It's nothing we don't already know.

I wouldn't say this match is bad at all for Ganon. Obviously if there's going to be an advantage, it will go to Snake, but I think from the info and the overall match up that we have right now, it kind of seems that Ganon can be just as dangerous as Snake, but Snake just has more options at his disposal.

Blad01 said:

Are you sure that you can grab Snake out of Dair ? I'll test it, but i think that a little bit of DI would just bring that little error...

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I'm pretty sure it cannot be affected at all by DI as the upwards trajectory is far too low and Ganon can grab literally immediately after the DAir. The only part of the combo which can be DI'd is the Dthrow-> Stutter Step FSmash but thats only if Snake has more than 3-5% damage. If its done straight from 0% he should have no chance to escape, even more so if you angle the FSmash downwards as theres no chance of him hitting the floor either.

I'll agree Rainbow Cruise is a fantastic counterpick against Snake enough to even put the matchup in Ganon's favour, I can't believe I even forgot about it. It does severely limit Snake's options and gives Ganon lots of opportunities to break out his anti-air options and buffered attacks.