PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

Shy Guy 86 · Oct 3, 2008

You have ZSS twice.....

Gaussis · Oct 3, 2008

FadedImage said:
When ZSS lands a grab, she can aerially release grab combo him for a guaranteed u-air (10 dmg), and possibly a f-air (17 dmg, can KO).

This is new. Might require some testing on my part. I'll do it now, I guess.

EDIT: When I did it, I got weird results. My brother couldn't escape the attack (he was controlling Ness). However, at 1/4 speed, Ness is able to DJ. I'll test it again in a while.

PKNintendo · Oct 4, 2008

She can grab release Ftilt him. Im sure about that. Not sure about the aerial. Ness jump break is gooood. Im going to test this now.

FadedImage · Oct 6, 2008

Haha, trust me, it works. It actually works on lots of characters, so it's not Ness's fault. I know you guys get all defensive when it comes to poor grab release combos. d:

Getting a U-Air is guaranteed, it only takes 4 frames to come out. F-Air is a little more difficult to time and space properly, but it's definitely possible. Ask Vice, I do it to him all the time. d:

Luigi player · Oct 6, 2008

Well, I can't say much, but I guess it's Diddys advantage. The bananas are so annoying for Ness...

ViceGrip · Oct 6, 2008

h8

10char

PKNintendo · Oct 6, 2008

FadedImage said:
Haha, trust me, it works. It actually works on lots of characters, so it's not Ness's fault. I know you guys get all defensive when it comes to poor grab release combos. d:

Getting a U-Air is guaranteed, it only takes 4 frames to come out. F-Air is a little more difficult to time and space properly, but it's definitely possible. Ask Vice, I do it to him all the time. d:

Only a Fair is possible. I retested it. Ness actually has 2 air grab release animations.

thesage · Oct 6, 2008

Grab those bananas. That's really all he has. Learn to grab them all the time, while attacking, landing, when thrown at you. If it wasn't for bananas Diddy is a trash character so learn to use them against him. DJC throw is so amazing with naners. You can like do combos and stuff with them.

FadedImage · Oct 6, 2008

PKNintendo said:
Only a Fair is possible. I retested it. Ness actually has 2 air grab release animations.

Umm.. How is the F-Air (6 Frames) possible but not U-Air (4 Frames)? And what changes the release animation? How were you moving with ZSS? (the fastest way is to buffer a dash, jump, perform a rising u-air.)

Gindler · Oct 7, 2008

I wouldn't say diddy's trash without bananas, Just decent.

PKNintendo · Oct 7, 2008

FadedImage said:
Umm.. How is the F-Air (6 Frames) possible but not U-Air (4 Frames)? And what changes the release animation? How were you moving with ZSS? (the fastest way is to buffer a dash, jump, perform a rising u-air.)

NM.

Juicy_g · Oct 7, 2008

For Diddy Kong and Lucas. What does 60-50 mean?

Crystanium · Oct 7, 2008

Mirror Shield: Immune to PK Fire, PK Thunder, PK Flash, and PK Jibaku. In fact, Pit's Mirror Shield can gimp Ness if performed properly. The shine that comes out when Pit pulls out his Mirror Shield acts like Mario's Cape. Anyone who has played against a good Pit player or has seen me pull out my Mirror Shield if I saw Ness preparing to use his PK Jibaku will see Ness bounce back. You should also watch UndrDog's videos, or was it Sagemoon? I can't remember, but I saw a video of one of them using the Mirror Shield to gimp Ness.

Wings of Icarus: This too, can be used as a gimping method against just about any character. It has similar qualities to Ness' PSI Magnet. That is to say, when used, it will push back Pit's opponent. It is also capable of pushing back projectiles. I think this match is in Ness' favor. It's a slight disadvantage for Pit. You might want to ask other Pit players, however, as Pit is not easily gimped when using his Wings of Icarus. I think it was Earthbound360 who said this match was in Pit's favor, but I don't know.

thesage · Oct 7, 2008

Couldn't Ness just swerve pkt of to pit to gimp Pit if he tries to edgeguard with wings?

Not sure about about the mirror sheild stuff. I don't really know much about this matchup.

60-50 matchup doesn't make anysense to me as that means both characters combined have a 110 percent chance of winning lolz. Plus it's the Lucas matchup which is nothing to do with Ness.

Crystanium · Oct 7, 2008

thesage said:
Couldn't Ness just swerve pkt of to pit to gimp Pit if he tries to edgeguard with wings?

Probably, but what would be the point if Ness is off the stage? There wouldn't be any point in trying to gimp Pit with PK Thunder if Ness was trying to recover. Or did I read your question wrong?

thesage · Oct 8, 2008

Dryn said:
Probably, but what would be the point if Ness is off the stage? There wouldn't be any point in trying to gimp Pit with PK Thunder if Ness was trying to recover. Or did I read your question wrong?

If Ness has been pushed away by the wings already, he can just aim the pkt for the pit. Ness should probably be recovering from under the stage anyways since Pits arrows can screw with pkt2 (which rhymes).

Steel · Oct 8, 2008

marth boards discussing ness, feel free to contribute

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5521307

Ryos4 · Oct 8, 2008

Umm being a pit player myself. I would say that ness has a disadvantage against pit when ever ness is off stage. he can use arrows to take out ur second jump. From there force you into using ur pk thunder recovery. Pit has several options to completely gimp a ness.

Things most of you probably know about. Mirror shielding ur pkt missle. Jump in front of the pkt bolt itself and take the hit. Shoot the pkt bolt with an arrow to cancel it out. The basic light arrow edge guard.

Phaigne · Oct 9, 2008

Yeah, major advantage in Pit's favor. Luckily, Ness does have a good defense for our arrows, but it doesn't do enough to make the difference...

Gaussis · Oct 9, 2008

I think you guys are taking this a little too lightly. Ness does have a disadvantage offstage, but it is not how you portray it. You don't take his DJ with arrows because he can airdodge during the jump (or fair and the arrows are fanned). You won't usually force Ness into PKT2 unless you use a horizontal knockback attack. Otherwise, PSI magnet stalling and DJ is all we need.

In case Ness really needs to use PKT, jumping onto the head requires your opponent to literally telegraph it to you to eat it(unless you want to fly out there and intercept the head, which still requires that). Arrows are impractical for gimping because you will hit Ness most of the time and will end up with a blind spot if he ends up directly under the stage (they do work for damage, though). The mirror however, is the one you hit spot on, so no need to comment. Just basically clearing it up. You wouldn't like any of us Nesses to just go "Oh Pit, just PKT his WoI and he's done." I know for a fact that it isn't the end-all situation and that Pit has ways around that.

I only know what each can do to the other. I'm not certain about the matchup, though.

Crystanium · Oct 9, 2008

thesage said:
If Ness has been pushed away by the wings already, he can just aim the pkt for the pit.

So, in other words, what Ness would be trying to do is take down Pit, while he is also going down?

thesage said:
Ness should probably be recovering from under the stage anyways since Pits arrows can screw with pkt2 (which rhymes).

This is why I made up the Fish Hook.

Gaussis said:
Otherwise, PSI magnet stalling and DJ is all we need.

I've used my Arrow Loop against Ness players to cause them to use their PSI Magnet. I mean, why get hit when you can reduce your damage percent? Whether they use it and absorb Palutena's Arrow is irrelevant to me. The point is that when that PSI Magnet is up, it allows me to go and attack Ness. In order to cancel the PSI Magnet sooner, the attack that can be absorbed would have to hit Ness while he is using the PSI Magnet.

Gaussis said:
Arrows are impractical for gimping because you will hit Ness most of the time and will end up with a blind spot if he ends up directly under the stage (they do work for damage, though).

Hey, whatever works, right? If you try to hit PK Thunder, chances are you'll cancel it out and Ness will fall to his doom. But, whatever. I like to strike my opponent with as many arrows as possible to increase the damage so that even if he or she were to return, my opponent would be all beat up.

Gaussis said:
You wouldn't like any of us Nesses to just go "Oh Pit, just PKT his WoI and he's done." I know for a fact that it isn't the end-all situation and that Pit has ways around that.

That's because it wouldn't be true. My brother mains Ness, and Pit is my alternative character. I've brawled with a number of Ness' from this board.

PKSkyler · Oct 9, 2008

not much to say,cant really contribute, ive fought 1 good pit only one match and dont remember the results, my brother plays pit but he sucks, and arrow looping looks like fun.

Gaussis · Oct 10, 2008

Dryn said:
This is why I made up the Fish Hook.

That little loop there takes a little too long for it to reach Ness if you were to start it at the same time as PKT.

I've used my Arrow Loop against Ness players to cause them to use their PSI Magnet. I mean, why get hit when you can reduce your damage percent? Whether they use it and absorb Palutena's Arrow is irrelevant to me. The point is that when that PSI Magnet is up, it allows me to go and attack Ness. In order to cancel the PSI Magnet sooner, the attack that can be absorbed would have to hit Ness while he is using the PSI Magnet.

Fair fans the arrows, no need to PSI magnet.

Hey, whatever works, right? If you try to hit PK Thunder, chances are you'll cancel it out and Ness will fall to his doom. But, whatever. I like to strike my opponent with as many arrows as possible to increase the damage so that even if he or she were to return, my opponent would be all beat up.

Uh, chances are they won't. PKT can be steered far more easily than Pit's, so for a much more efficient use, target Ness plz.

That's because it wouldn't be true. My brother mains Ness, and Pit is my alternative character. I've brawled with a number of Ness' from this board.

I was giving an example of something commonly overlooked.

I don't underestimate Pit here. Just don't overlook certain things in the matchup.

Crystanium · Oct 10, 2008

Please don't answer in my quote box, Gaussis. It shows laziness on your part.

Gaussis said:
That little loop there takes a little too long for it to reach Ness if you were to start it at the same time as PKT.

Perhaps, but what are the odds of Ness returning to the stage if he is underneat the lip of certain stages? In that case, there wouldn't be any point in firing an arrow, since the odds of Ness returning to the stage would be very slim. And I wouldn't say that the loop would take a bit too long. Palutena's Arrow moves faster than PK Thunder, lasts longer than PK Thunder, and can be easily maneuvered.

Gaussis said:
Fair fans the arrows, no need to PSI magnet.

And that's why we have the Arrow Loop. Of course, you ignored that, even though I clearly said, "Arrow Loop." F-air is only good if it's being directly fired at Ness. If at his head or behind him or below him, f-air isn't going to help, and the best option might be to use PSI Magnet. Not to mention, Pit's bow becomes two blades when he uses f-air. Ness isn't the only one with a disjointed hitbox.

Gaussis said:
Uh, chances are they won't. PKT can be steered far more easily than Pit's, so for a much more efficient use, target Ness plz.

You should test out the Arrow Loop and see how well it is in mobility and how easily it can be manipulated. Ness, in order for him to use his PK Jibaku, has to hit himself. Two options are open for Pit. One is that he can hit Ness' PK Thunder, or two, use his Mirror Shield to bounce Ness away from the stage.

Pearl Floatzel · Oct 11, 2008

Dryn said:
Please don't answer in my quote box, Gaussis. It shows laziness on your part.

No, it doesn't. Ad hominem is bad. Don't use it.

Perhaps, but what are the odds of Ness returning to the stage if he is underneat the lip of certain stages? In that case, there wouldn't be any point in firing an arrow, since the odds of Ness returning to the stage would be very slim. And I wouldn't say that the loop would take a bit too long. Palutena's Arrow moves faster than PK Thunder, lasts longer than PK Thunder, and can be easily maneuvered.

It can be easily maneuvered, sure. You push a direction. It is not as responsive as PK Thunder. Arrows are faster, but PK Thunder can be manipulated in a small space. Pit requires an entire stage. You're going to get damage. You can give me the extra damage. That's okay by me. I'll live. Unless your opponent is an idiot, you are not gimping Ness with arrows alone.

And that's why we have the Arrow Loop. Of course, you ignored that, even though I clearly said, "Arrow Loop." F-air is only good if it's being directly fired at Ness. If at his head or behind him or below him, f-air isn't going to help, and the best option might be to use PSI Magnet. Not to mention, Pit's bow becomes two blades when he uses f-air. Ness isn't the only one with a disjointed hitbox.

PSI Magnet isn't worth it. 3-5% or a running upsmash? Hmm.... If the Ness is intelligent, arrows can be dealt with. F-air works. Air dodge works. If the Ness is super high up, then they'll PSI Magnet. If they can be hit by you, they won't be stupid and use it.

You should test out the Arrow Loop and see how well it is in mobility and how easily it can be manipulated. Ness, in order for him to use his PK Jibaku, has to hit himself. Two options are open for Pit. One is that he can hit Ness' PK Thunder, or two, use his Mirror Shield to bounce Ness away from the stage.

I have tested the Arrow Loop. PK Thunder is better and easier to manipulate.
While we're stating the obvious, to loop arrows, Pit has to make them go up, a direction, down, and the other direction.
As I and many other people have said before, unless the Ness is telling you 3 seconds in advance in real life that he's going to PKT2 to recover, you're not hitting the head. Period. That is like saying that Pit is easily gimped because you just hit the WoI and he dies. No. Learn to play Ness.
Ah, the Mirror Shield. Now there is a point. In my experience the Mirror Shield can work. It just requires prediction. Will they aim for the edge or the stage? Otherwise, I'll agree here.

The problem here is that you are arguing about PK Thunder. You completely ignore Ness' second jump. You can airdodge during it. You can aerial. It is one of the harder things in the game to stop a Yoshi, Ness, or to a lesser extent a Lucas who still has their second jump. How would a Pit stop that?

Phaigne · Oct 11, 2008

You guys are digressing into an argument. The way I see it is you both have valid points. 1: Pit has several options for gimping Ness' recovery, though mirror shield is the only truly reliable one. 2: Ness has several ways of defending himself while recovering, but the Pit has his own ways through these defenses. Case closed.

Pearl Floatzel · Oct 11, 2008

Phaigne said:
You guys are digressing into an argument. The way I see it is you both have valid points. 1: Pit has several options for gimping Ness' recovery, though mirror shield is the only truly reliable one. 2: Ness has several ways of defending himself while recovering, but the Pit has his own ways through these defenses. Case closed.

Quoted for truth. Let the arguments stop and let's discuss other parts of their game.

Is Ness' F-Air longer than Pit's?

Ref · Oct 11, 2008

Stumbles on to this topic...

Ness' F air is longer than Pit's...

And wow Mirror shield doesn't bounce Ness away at all... Ness will just barge right through causing Pit to be pushed back...

And PK thunder stops WOI..... So pit players who get hit by PKT while in WOI have no hopes of recovering...

Arrows on Pk thunder? Okay PK thunder on WOI?

The match up is Even... and Unless the Ness is dumb he won't get his DJ knocked out by arrows... DJ and airdodge..

The match up is even...

cj.Shark · Oct 11, 2008

Ref said:
Stumbles on to this topic...

Ness' F air is longer than Pit's...

And wow Mirror shield doesn't bounce Ness away at all... Ness will just barge right through causing Pit to be pushed back...

And PK thunder stops WOI..... So pit players who get hit by PKT while in WOI have no hopes of recovering...

Arrows on Pk thunder? Okay PK thunder on WOI?

The match up is Even... and Unless the Ness is dumb he won't get his DJ knocked out by arrows... DJ and airdodge..

The match up is even...

Mirrorshield reflects Ness'es recovery is a Perfect reflection. (think inverse of the angle ness was going in)

Arrows are better simply because they are faster and if you miss you can fire more.

Pk thunder will always be a threat but do not forget WoI's intial frames destroy the Pkt. also Getting hit by it before woi will actually help your recovery unless arrows which do not help recovery at all with its low diagonal knockback. PKT has mostly vertical knockback.

Match Up is between even and Pits favor.

Ref · Oct 11, 2008

Mirror shield does not reflect Ness' recover... Show me where it does if it does... Well it doesn't reflect Pkt2... And if you are trying to Take out PKT then chances are you're in for a swell surprise...

WOI start up cannot destroy The tail or Ness can wait until after you WOI....

It's Even...

Plus Ness' Aerial game out range's Pit's... Yes?

Run a pkt2 into mirror shield and Ness will just push you back...

Also Saying WOI start up kill PKT is like saying PKT will avoid an arrow both can happen or both cannot. The match up is even.

cj.Shark · Oct 11, 2008

It mirrors your recovery. for instance U use UPB and hit urself. It hits mirror and you fly the wrong way..simple?

Ref · Oct 11, 2008

It doesn't... go test it unless you want to argue and invalid point...

And I'm pretty sure that alone probably destroyed most of your Ideas of Pit having the advantage? Are there more reasons?

All I know Ness' Air game out ranges pit's. Both and Gimp each other each with no one way more than the other.

Uffe · Oct 11, 2008

Ref said:
And wow Mirror shield doesn't bounce Ness away at all... Ness will just barge right through causing Pit to be pushed back...

When the Mirror Shield is pulled up, there is a shine. When that shine is there it reflects anything. It works like Mario's Cape. It's almost like perfect shielding but both Ness and Pit bounce back. This can be done off the stage to make Ness unable to return. ):

Gaussis · Oct 11, 2008

It wouldn't happen to work under Pit, would it? If not, it makes the bottom portion of the stage safer than I thought.

cj.Shark · Oct 11, 2008

Ref said:
It doesn't... go test it unless you want to argue and invalid point...

And I'm pretty sure that alone probably destroyed most of your Ideas of Pit having the advantage? Are there more reasons?

All I know Ness' Air game out ranges pit's. Both and Gimp each other each with no one way more than the other.

i dont need to test it. ive done it before.
If u really want it then fine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwT33mY2ruw&feature=user
3:02

Uffe · Oct 11, 2008

Gaussis said:
It wouldn't happen to work under Pit, would it? If not, it makes the bottom portion of the stage safer than I thought.

I believe if you're under Pit with his Mirror Shield up you can still hit him. Anywhere the Mirror Shield isn't protecting is where Pit can get hit. He can raise his Mirror Shield up to avoid getting hit by PKT2, but it's not easy for Ness to actually do this and probably not recommended.

_clinton · Oct 11, 2008

cj.Shark said:
i dont need to test it. ive done it before.
If u really want it then fine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwT33mY2ruw&feature=user
3:02

6:16 to 6:18

Equals best part in that video...

Anyway...PKT is to Ness like WoI are to Pit...not really needed to get back to the stage most of the time and should be used only as a last result...only WoI have the longest range for any UB in the game and PKT2 is a 30% kill move...

Gaussis · Oct 11, 2008

It beats ROB's???????

10

s

_clinton · Oct 11, 2008

Gaussis said:
It beats ROB's???????

10 s

Well vertically it does (Pit scored 12 blocks, ROB scored 7.5 blocks in that test)

Horizontally...no...it is close though...Pit clears the long jump at a level 5 using just his WoI...ROB using just Robo Burner clears it at level 3 though ^_^

(In case you don't know about my test...level 1 is ground level...level 2 is one floor above ground level...level 3 is two floors...and level 10 is 9 floors above ground level...

The score is 2-25 points...25 is a clear...however I run out of horizontal space at 17...so 18-25 are just vertical floors...yeah btw I'm thinking this is going to be the final horizontal test...because I like this one ^_^)

Ref · Oct 11, 2008

Ah so it reflects the opposite way in the beginning of pulling it out. Okay that works. Now lets talk about Air game and ground game...

Ness' Air game beats pits.

And Yes behind, below and above pit's mirror shield can hit him.

So basically both characters can realistically than others. And Ness' Air game beat's Pits.

It's even.

Ness can send PKT at WOI, or even just hit it.

and Pit can send arrow's at Ness' recover if you see it coming or mirror shield.

Ness' Yo yo s beat most of you smashes (Only tested forward smash and down smash)and it beat the angel ring...

So there just make it even, in all seriousness both can gimp each other easily...

It's even and that is about all there is to it.

PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

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