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PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

cj.Shark

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psi magnet is a horrible counter for Pits arrows. most pits often use them for quick damage every now and then and we hardly ever shoot more than 2 in a row. Btw whenever i play ness i look for the psimagnet. if its there and im doing a shorthopped arrow Ill curve it up to avoid. if i shot it from the ground i will curve it back into the ground. Pits arrows werent meant to be spammed in that sence. Its more of a tool used to send the other person off balance and to reset spacing.
 

Ref

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Refpsi
I think we had all the discussion we need to say the match up is even...
 

Crystanium

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It's even.
I hear this too much from the Ness board. If Pit has a slight advantage against Lucas, which the Lucas board is discussing, then what makes you think Ness is any better, especially since Lucas isn't easily gimped?
 

Ref

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This is the Ness boards... What does Lucas have to do with Ness? Lets throw out Metaknight! Meta is not easily gimped could have used him and it's the same effect.... Not easily gimped... What Makes Ness better than Meta? The point is why throw a random character into a discussion between Ness and Pit?

Ness has range advantages over pit. So that makes it even as well...
 

Crystanium

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This is the Ness boards... What does Lucas have to do with Ness? Lets throw out Metaknight! Meta is not easily gimped could have used him and it's the same effect.... Not easily gimped... What Makes Ness better than Meta? The point is why throw a random character into a discussion between Ness and Pit?

Ness has range advantages over pit. So that makes it even as well...
I brought up Lucas, only because of the similarities. If Pit has a slight advantage against Lucas, then what makes you think that Ness will do better?
 

ColinJF

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Ness and Lucas really aren't that similar.

I agree with Ness v. Pit being even, or possibly even slightly in Ness's favour.
 

PKNintendo

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I brought up Lucas, only because of the similarities. If Pit has a slight advantage against Lucas, then what makes you think that Ness will do better?
Because Lucas is NOT that similar to Ness.
 

Crystanium

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Ness and Lucas really aren't that similar.

I agree with Ness v. Pit being even, or possibly even slightly in Ness's favour.
I was talking about similarities when it came to PK attacks.

Let's get some more Pit players in here to help me out. I feel like I'm always the only one discussing match-ups for my characters.
 

PKNintendo

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I also don't think it's even. More like 45-55 for Pitu. (intentional, U is intentional)
 

Admiral Pit

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This matchup is similar to the Lucas vs Pit matchup in some ways, but here's how it goes.

Both Ness and Pit do have some poor Melee range. Pit's longer ranged melee moves are F-tilt and F-air, and both dont come out as quickly as Pit's other moves. There isnt much to talk about this part.

Note: Like Lucas, Ness' Fsmash is a reflector when Ness swings his bat. It can be used against Pit's arrows.

Ness is kinda small and is somewhat hard for Pit to hit, but not as small as Lucas though.

Ness' F-air is useful in the fight, since Pit lacks range, and F-air has good priority, and duration time, comes out fast, with a small amount of lag. B-air has less lag and more spammable, as well as it's sweetspot being a kill move.

Ness' PK fire, like Lucas', isn't completely recommended in this matchup. Ness lacks the PK fire ATs that Lucas has, but Ness' PK fire does hit multiple times. This could somehow be used to eat Pit's jumps up, or stop him long enough to grab him or hit him, if the Pit doesn't escape quickly. Remember that Pit has reflectors, so it's tempting to use.

PK Flash isn't really useful against a Pit, considering the Reflectors he has, and that Pit can shoot an arrow at you while you're doing it, so Pit can shoot you from long range, or punish you if he's close enough. Like Lucas' PK Freeze, if reflected by Pit, it could hurt Ness if he's in the blast radius (Like that's ever goin to happen in a match).

PK Thunder is very threatening to Pit in some cases. Remember that Pit's reflectors can only protect him from what's coming at him from the front, so control the PKT so that it goes behind Pit's Mirror Shield, and hit him. As for Angel Ring, it's harder since it's reflecting range is larger than the Mirror Shield's.
PKT can be used to take down Pit's recovery. Use it against his Up-B and neutralize Pit's recovery. But remember, when you first knock down a Pit, the Pit can choose to glide, use a reflector, or shoot arrows as he is recovering. More about PKT will be discussed later.

PSI Magnet is simply to counter Pit's arrows, and gain some health from it, nothing special. Note that when the move stops, it has a little windpush effect, that part isnt really useful. You can use it to stall in the air, sort of like Fox can with his Reflector, just not as long, and repel Pit's arrows that way.

Pit has some problems with F-air's range, and also can be used to stop him from recovering. You can choose to spike him with D-air if you wish, but just be careful of Pit's U-air. PKT is a good choice against his Up-B recovery, as mentioned before.
B-throw hurts Pit so much, usually KOed at around 110%, depending on where you are and the DI Pit makes, poor angel :(
B-air is also a kill move when sweetspotted, but you better measure the distance from Pit if you want to land it.

I really dont know how Ness usually applies D-smash or U-smash, aka, the Yo-yo, since it's rarely used. It does not outprioritize Pit's Rapid A, or Angel Ring.

Now, Pit can do a lot of things to annoy Ness, despite the PSI Magnet against his Arrow thing.

IMPORTANT! Here's the big thing that all Ness players must know when against a Pit.
Because Ness has less Recovering options than Lucas, especially without such ATs like Zap jump, or tether recovery, Pit can take down Ness easier than he can take down Lucas when Ness is trying to recover. Here's what a Pit can do against Ness' limited recovery:

1: Shoot an arrow at Ness to disrupt him, which forces Ness to use PKT again, or to eat up Ness' Mid-air jump.

2: Mirror Shield Ness' PTK Recovery, after Ness hits himself with PKT that is, to "Reverse" him and KO him. Note that Pit has to time it right or the Pit will get punished.

3: Pursue Ness with one of his aerials, but many Pits would rather not risk getting hit by the PK blast. If Ness isnt using PKT at the time, most Pits would use either F-air or U-air, or B-air for the kill.

4: Fly over Ness to take the PKT hit and negate PKT as well as KOing Ness.

5: Shoot an arrow at the PKT therefore destroying the PKT, negating Ness from Recovering, and KOing Ness. This is a lot safer than Number 4.

6: Edgehog. Pit's Up-B, when used next to the ledge, while airborne (used mostly when Pit is trying to recover), can help Pit grab the ledge quickly.

7: Use Up-B near Ness to "Wingpush" Ness and it screws the Ness up when trying to angle his PKT. The "WingPush" can destroy Ness' PKT as well when in range, and that means bye bye Ness.

Note: Like Lucas, Ness is one of the characters that can get D-tilt spiked by Pit while hanging on the ledge.
Pit's D-tilt spike works when the opponent is at Pit's feet when Pit is crouching. Of course, the opponent cannot be on the ground. Pit's D-tilt spike is quite strong, for a move that does 11% damage.


Ness' Advantages
-Somewhat small and is hard for Pit to hit
-PKT and F-air messes up Pit badly when Pit is trying to recover
-Pit is very vulnerable to PKT when using Up-B to recover
-PK Fire, when used correctly, can be used to eat up Pit's Mid-air jumps
-PSI Magnet can be used against Pit's arrows

Pit's Advantages
-Pit has reflectors that help lessen Ness' projectile usefulness
-Pit can punish Ness when he uses a move that makes him Vulnerable, like PK Flash and PKT. He can use Arrows to punish him at a far distance, or a different attack when Pit is close and when Ness misses.
-Pit's Edgeguarding, Ledgecamping, and Gimping capabilities are Exceptional
-Pit is very good at Shield Pressure. Rapid A, Angel Ring, and N-air are the primary Shield-pressuring Moves that Pit has. U-air is also another
-Pit has so many options to stop Ness' limited recovery. He can even stop his recovery with Arrows (especially the PKT), a safe distance from harm.

I'd say this matchup is at about 55-45 or 60-40 in Pit's favor, main reason is because Ness is screwed when trying to recover in this matchup against Pit. What do you think?
 

Ref

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It's Even because arrows can't Eat a double jump properly if you don't know when the double jump is coming... DJ activate in 1 Frame and after that Ness can use his F air to fan off projectiles.

And why would Ness use PK fire to eat up jumps when he can just do an aerial?

Also Since Pkt can move so well Ness can move it behind your reflectors... Same way Pit can avoid PSI Magnet with his Arrows...

If you Use WOI against Ness to mess up his recovery he can control it back into himself or tailwhip/ hit you with PKT in order to stop your recover.

It's Even....

I faced tons of Pits in tourneys, I'm yet to get gimped by Arrows or mirror shields...

I'm pretty sure that Ness' B air or even F air can beat Pit's glide attack... Leaving him with what ever DJ he has left and WOI.
 

Phaigne

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I'm pretty sure that Ness' B air or even F air can beat Pit's glide attack... Leaving him with what ever DJ he has left and WOI.
You aren't considering the glide attack has a unique swing animation and hit box, mix this with an erratic (but under control) glide, you have a powerful attack that can hit at odd angles with great knockback. And it also gives us the ability to slip into any other attack seamlessly.
 

Ref

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I'm saying that the aerial does beat that attack it beats the attack... Regardless of how weird the hit box is...
 

PKNintendo

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This matchup is similar to the Lucas vs Pit matchup in some ways, but here's how it goes.

Both Ness and Pit do have some poor Melee range. Pit's longer ranged melee moves are F-tilt and F-air, and both dont come out as quickly as Pit's other moves. There isnt much to talk about this part.

Note: Like Lucas, Ness' Fsmash is a reflector when Ness swings his bat. It can be used against Pit's arrows.

Ness is kinda small and is somewhat hard for Pit to hit, but not as small as Lucas though.

Ness' F-air is useful in the fight, since Pit lacks range, and F-air has good priority, and duration time, comes out fast, with a small amount of lag. B-air has less lag and more spammable, as well as it's sweetspot being a kill move.

Ness' PK fire, like Lucas', isn't completely recommended in this matchup. Ness lacks the PK fire ATs that Lucas has, but Ness' PK fire does hit multiple times. This could somehow be used to eat Pit's jumps up, or stop him long enough to grab him or hit him, if the Pit doesn't escape quickly. Remember that Pit has reflectors, so it's tempting to use.

PK Flash isn't really useful against a Pit, considering the Reflectors he has, and that Pit can shoot an arrow at you while you're doing it, so Pit can shoot you from long range, or punish you if he's close enough. Like Lucas' PK Freeze, if reflected by Pit, it could hurt Ness if he's in the blast radius (Like that's ever goin to happen in a match).

PK Thunder is very threatening to Pit in some cases. Remember that Pit's reflectors can only protect him from what's coming at him from the front, so control the PKT so that it goes behind Pit's Mirror Shield, and hit him. As for Angel Ring, it's harder since it's reflecting range is larger than the Mirror Shield's.
PKT can be used to take down Pit's recovery. Use it against his Up-B and neutralize Pit's recovery. But remember, when you first knock down a Pit, the Pit can choose to glide, use a reflector, or shoot arrows as he is recovering. More about PKT will be discussed later.

PSI Magnet is simply to counter Pit's arrows, and gain some health from it, nothing special. Note that when the move stops, it has a little windpush effect, that part isnt really useful. You can use it to stall in the air, sort of like Fox can with his Reflector, just not as long, and repel Pit's arrows that way.

Pit has some problems with F-air's range, and also can be used to stop him from recovering. You can choose to spike him with D-air if you wish, but just be careful of Pit's U-air. PKT is a good choice against his Up-B recovery, as mentioned before.
B-throw hurts Pit so much, usually KOed at around 110%, depending on where you are and the DI Pit makes, poor angel :(
B-air is also a kill move when sweetspotted, but you better measure the distance from Pit if you want to land it.

I really dont know how Ness usually applies D-smash or U-smash, aka, the Yo-yo, since it's rarely used. It does not outprioritize Pit's Rapid A, or Angel Ring.

Now, Pit can do a lot of things to annoy Ness, despite the PSI Magnet against his Arrow thing.

IMPORTANT! Here's the big thing that all Ness players must know when against a Pit.
Because Ness has less Recovering options than Lucas, especially without such ATs like Zap jump, or tether recovery, Pit can take down Ness easier than he can take down Lucas when Ness is trying to recover. Here's what a Pit can do against Ness' limited recovery:

1: Shoot an arrow at Ness to disrupt him, which forces Ness to use PKT again, or to eat up Ness' Mid-air jump.

2: Mirror Shield Ness' PTK Recovery, after Ness hits himself with PKT that is, to "Reverse" him and KO him. Note that Pit has to time it right or the Pit will get punished.

3: Pursue Ness with one of his aerials, but many Pits would rather not risk getting hit by the PK blast. If Ness isnt using PKT at the time, most Pits would use either F-air or U-air, or B-air for the kill.

4: Fly over Ness to take the PKT hit and negate PKT as well as KOing Ness.

5: Shoot an arrow at the PKT therefore destroying the PKT, negating Ness from Recovering, and KOing Ness. This is a lot safer than Number 4.

6: Edgehog. Pit's Up-B, when used next to the ledge, while airborne (used mostly when Pit is trying to recover), can help Pit grab the ledge quickly.

7: Use Up-B near Ness to "Wingpush" Ness and it screws the Ness up when trying to angle his PKT. The "WingPush" can destroy Ness' PKT as well when in range, and that means bye bye Ness.

Note: Like Lucas, Ness is one of the characters that can get D-tilt spiked by Pit while hanging on the ledge.
Pit's D-tilt spike works when the opponent is at Pit's feet when Pit is crouching. Of course, the opponent cannot be on the ground. Pit's D-tilt spike is quite strong, for a move that does 11% damage.


Ness' Advantages
-Somewhat small and is hard for Pit to hit
-PKT and F-air messes up Pit badly when Pit is trying to recover
-Pit is very vulnerable to PKT when using Up-B to recover
-PK Fire, when used correctly, can be used to eat up Pit's Mid-air jumps
-PSI Magnet can be used against Pit's arrows

Pit's Advantages
-Pit has reflectors that help lessen Ness' projectile usefulness
-Pit can punish Ness when he uses a move that makes him Vulnerable, like PK Flash and PKT. He can use Arrows to punish him at a far distance, or a different attack when Pit is close and when Ness misses.
-Pit's Edgeguarding, Ledgecamping, and Gimping capabilities are Exceptional
-Pit is very good at Shield Pressure. Rapid A, Angel Ring, and N-air are the primary Shield-pressuring Moves that Pit has. U-air is also another
-Pit has so many options to stop Ness' limited recovery. He can even stop his recovery with Arrows (especially the PKT), a safe distance from harm.

I'd say this matchup is at about 55-45 or 60-40 in Pit's favor, main reason is because Ness is screwed when trying to recover in this matchup against Pit. What do you think?
Most of it is right, but some key points.

1. Ness and Lucas are the same size, you said that Ness was not as small as Lucas.
2. The difference between edge guarding a good Ness, and edge guarding a bad Ness is quite large. What would do if I told you that I could easily gimp Pit because I played a scrub, and used Ness Up B to to hit Pit out of his Up B.

-Pit can punish Ness when he uses a move that makes him Vulnerable, like PK Flash and PKT.

Again, a good Ness knows when to use his moves. We can hardly equate that into the matchup. It's saying Ness can punish Pit when he is using his Forward B spam.


I'd say this matchup is at about 55-45 or 60-40 in Pit's favor, main reason is because Ness is screwed when trying to recover in this matchup against Pit. What do you think?[/QUOTE]


You list all these reasons and end with that??? Thats pretty lame. Again, the recovery equates not that much in the matchup.

Down tilt spike is useless, not self respecting Ness (or ANY character for that matter) allows that.

Pit is an decent gimper, but i've seen better.

IMO it's 5-5 or 45-55 for Pit.
 

Crystanium

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You list all these reasons and end with that??? Thats pretty lame. Again, the recovery equates not that much in the matchup.
Hey, Admiral Pit gave a list of reasons before setting down those match-up numbers. Don't act like he just came in and said, "Pit is better than Ness. It should be 60-40 or 55-45, Pit's favor."
 

PKNintendo

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Hey, Admiral Pit gave a list of reasons before setting down those match-up numbers. Don't act like he just came in and said, "Pit is better than Ness. It should be 60-40 or 55-45, Pit's favor."
It's like giving 10 reason's why Barack Obama is a better president than McCain and ending with

''I think Barack is a better president because he's democratic''

I also think it's 55-45, but I dislike the reasons he gave.
 

Crystanium

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It's like giving 10 reason's why Barack Obama is a better president than McCain and ending with

''I think Barack is a better president because he's democratic''

I also think it's 55-45, but I dislike the reasons he gave.
Except, he didn't say anything like that, because "I think Barack is a better president because he's a democratic" isn't an argument. It's simply an assertion without proof or reason. After Admiral Pit wrote all that he wrote, he said that he thought it would be in Pit's favor, mainly because Ness' recovery is average compared to Pit's. Then you have Ness' slow special attacks. In order to hit Pit with PK Fire, you have to be at least mid-range. To hit Pit with PK Thunder, you have to be at a distance if you don't wish to get hit. And PK Flash is just horribly slow. It's funny how you don't like Admiral Pit's reasons, but you don't seem to mind what any Ness player has to say.
 

Wave⁂

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PKNintendo, did you really have to quote Admiral Pit's whole post?

Also PSI Magnet cancel.
 

thesage

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Why in the world would Ness use his specials against pit in this matchup? Pkt (as an attack) is only useful to juggle him. That's it. He has 2 reflectors.

They both are the same aerially. Pit can edgeguard Ness, while Ness is limited to juggling him when he's off stage (good pits don't use their up-b far away when their opponent can attack them).

Honestly, I'm simply too lazy to comment. Both sides are being dumb.
 

Ref

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For Ice climbers, Don't do laggy attacks... Shield pressure them and isolate nana... I don't know much else.
 

Swordplay

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This matchup is crazy stupid....

Its like 70:30 or 75:25 Ice Climbers...

#1 Rule. Don't get grabbed.

Its harder than most characters not to due to the fact that some of ness's attacks have a little end lag.


#2 Rule stay on stage.



Seriously. Nobody gimps Ness better than Iceclimbers. Iceclimbers gimp you almost worse than metaknight in my opinion. Ice blocks out prioritize PK Thunder. They have equal priority to your PK thunder recovery and cancel it. That means you have to do it all over again.

But they will keep spamming iceblocks and you will fall to your death. THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO!

Your only hope is to stay in the air. If you don't you will get ***** so hard you will go home and cry to mother earth.

Diffuculty: ITS OVER 9000!!!
 

PKNintendo

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This matchup is crazy stupid....

Its like 70:30 or 75:25 Ice Climbers...

#1 Rule. Don't get grabbed.

Its harder than most characters not to due to the fact that some of ness's attacks have a little end lag.


#2 Rule stay on stage.



Seriously. Nobody gimps Ness better than Iceclimbers. Iceclimbers gimp you almost worse than metaknight in my opinion. Ice blocks out prioritize PK Thunder. They have equal priority to your PK thunder recovery and cancel it. That means you have to do it all over again.

But they will keep spamming iceblocks and you will fall to your death. THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO!

Your only hope is to stay in the air. If you don't you will get ***** so hard you will go home and cry to mother earth.
Um thanks?

No offense but that wasn't very good advice. Not only is Ness recovery severely underrated, IC have NOTHING grab related on Ness (that they can't do to everyone else) They have **** grab range, thats a fact and even a Captain falcon can outspace a grab spamming IC.
 

Ref

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If you get ice blocked spammed recover differently? Meta knight gimps worse.
 

Swordplay

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Well I might be a little biased.....

But I have played plenty of friendlies against a Ness main.

Every time he goes off stage Iceblocks **** him. there is nothing ness can do if he gets caught in an iceblock spam offstage. Go see for yourself.


And its not the grab range you should worry about. It is the Dash grab because he will try to capitalize on ness's end lag.


O an I don't think ness's recovery sucks. Not when Every time he uses thunder I use thee the gale boomerang perfectly and push him so he can't aim......No not at all.....


Look ness's recovery isn't that bad in certain situations. Iceclimbers is not 1 of those situations. If you were lucas, you could B-stick your way back but you are not. You are Ness and Iceblocks **** PK thunder. They just do.
 

Ref

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You can recover at different angles for a reason... You do not have to take the ice blocks that pretty much go in the same path.

Like I said use less laggy moves.
 

Swordplay

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Of course you can recover from a different angle. I never said that. But If you ever get nana stage spiked...even at an early percent. you won't be able to get back on with Iceblocks coming

It is always preferred to recovery at a different angle. The problem then relies in predictability. Iceclimbers have tools for this too Like Down special in the air Not nearly as effective but it is something you have to look out for.

I stand by 70:30 and I am done with this going back to mah boards......
 

Mmac

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I made a Compact Universal Matchup Template for you to use, if you want to use it. Just add in the Title/Numbers yourself, and whatever else you want to do with it. If you want me to make you a more Unique design, then PM me with a Rough estimate of what you want.

 

PKNintendo

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I made a Compact Universal Matchup Template for you to use, if you want to use it. Just add in the Title/Numbers yourself, and whatever else you want to do with it. If you want me to make you a more Unique design, then PM me with a Rough estimate of what you want.

Thanks. This is awesome.

Sword play, you don't even MAIN the IC. (according to your Icon) plus you
1. haven't played a decent Ness
2. No very little about him.
 

jorge199494

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but i dont get how ike iz 60-40 ness he will punish u like THAT! *snap* o.o its mad hard for me to win against ike i hate it!
 

PKNintendo

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Explain .
Getting gimped by IC isn't a valid argument. (in my thread) the recovery tier list, some characters that are LOWER than Ness, have an even match against IC. Backthrow ***** Nana, aerials works well too. PK double ignite. PK flash on Belay landing, Popo without Nana is just sad.
 

Wave⁂

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Getting gimped by IC isn't a valid argument. (in my thread) the recovery tier list, some characters that are LOWER than Ness, have an even match against IC. Backthrow ***** Nana, aerials works well too.
1. Shortest matchup summary I've ever read, aside from ones including MK.

2. Why state something that is an invalid argument?

3. Bthrow aerials **** everything.

PK double ignite. PK flash on Belay landing, Popo with Nana is just sad.
I don't get it. What is PK double ignite? Belay is their forward B, right? So how would PK Flash be so effective? PK Flash moves quite slowly. And how is Popo with Nana sad?
 

PKNintendo

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1. Shortest matchup summary I've ever read, aside from ones including MK.

2. Why state something that is an invalid argument?

3. Bthrow aerials **** everything.



I don't get it. What is PK double ignite? Belay is their forward B, right? So how would PK Flash be so effective? PK Flash moves quite slowly. And how is Popo with Nana sad?
I was in a rush. You know nothing about the IC, but since im such a nice guy, I'll help you out.

1. Belay is their up B
2. PK flash is decent.
3. Popo WITHOUT nana is sad.
 

Ref

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No pk thunder their Up B.... And do not PK fire, flash or PKT2....

Just use properly spaced aerials...

Though I would still say this match up is at least 55-45 Ice climbers advantage due to the Horrible fate you take if you miss with laggy specials... And that's about 3 out of 5 I included PKT2
 

Wave⁂

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I was in a rush. You know nothing about the IC, but since im such a nice guy, I'll help you out.

1. Belay is their up B
2. PK flash is decent.
3. Popo WITHOUT nana is sad.
Well, now that makes less sense. I admit, I have just about no knowledge of IC's. So why would PK Flash be good? I thought they had ledge invul after Belay. And just because Flash is decent doesn't mean it's good.
 
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