thesage
Smash Hero
The only reason Snake is harder than MK is cuz of those **** grenades. Otherwise Snake wouldn't be as hard >_>;
Marth is harder than mk imo.
Marth is harder than mk imo.
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PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]
- Thread starter Yink
- Start date
thesage
Smash Hero
They are also nice things to hit with nair.
asob4
Smash Champion
so far the little discussion i've seen on oli has been "60-40 ness. he has nair he wins"
i've seen no actual discussion, not even anecdotal evidence to back any of these claims
(cept for maybe one post but even then it was nothing too different)
so i'm wondering, have ANY of you had experience with this match up vs a top olimar player??
if you have not then don't go around saying biased match up numbers
thank you
i've seen no actual discussion, not even anecdotal evidence to back any of these claims
(cept for maybe one post but even then it was nothing too different)
so i'm wondering, have ANY of you had experience with this match up vs a top olimar player??
if you have not then don't go around saying biased match up numbers
thank you
Gaussis
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2008
- Messages
- 903
It would be nice to actually give us points to argue, you know. As far as I know, Olimar can't camp Ness. He can't tack on damage against Ness, since nair deflects pikmin rather harshly. He doesn't outrange Ness in the air save for his uair. His recovery can be ledgewhipped quite easily (by this I mean he is hit by the head of PKT and stagespiked). I forget what I'm missing.
My point is to actually state what Olimar can do to Ness. That would help to move the argument along.
My point is to actually state what Olimar can do to Ness. That would help to move the argument along.
Tell us what Olimar can do to Ness.
thesage
Smash Hero
He can grab and use up-b out of shield. Kinda makes it hard for Ness to approach, but if you just avoid the directions there in your safe.
I kinda use Olimar so I have a feeling for this matchup. No I haven't ever played a good Olimr (they dont exits here) but I mean what else can he do.
The pikmin eating thunder thing is really unlikely and Ness will probably use psi magnet + dj to recover against Olimar.
I kinda use Olimar so I have a feeling for this matchup. No I haven't ever played a good Olimr (they dont exits here) but I mean what else can he do.
The pikmin eating thunder thing is really unlikely and Ness will probably use psi magnet + dj to recover against Olimar.
I'll tell you what I did to an Olimar that tried grabbing me. Of course he was just standing there spamming his Pikmin and trying to grab me while staying under a platform. I used my PK Fire on him. One, it made a fire pillar for me to be safe behind and two, his grab doesn't go as far as PK Fire. It comes out quick, I'll give you that much.
asob4
Smash Champion
i have already stated that i have very little experience with this match up. if vicegrip comes to the tourney this weekend i will play him in order to try and determine the match up.
in general though, olimar outranges ness on the ground (no surprise, right?) and fsmash is a great spacer. grab range is huge with killer throws as well which will more than likely kill ness around the early 100's. edgegaurding will be tough for both of them, as you give too little credit to olimar's recovery.
a tippered bat is scary, but we shouldn't let you space that at all
your bthrow will kill us pretty early but our throws are just as strong (purple uthrow is stronger >:])
also, if it doesn't kill us we'll recover
do a lot of your moves send in an upward trajectory, or horizontal? if not horizontal we have a high chance of recovering.
we can spam pikmin as much as we want. no matter what you say you will take damage from the little fukers. and how can we not camp you? the only ones we can't outcamp are wolf and arguably falco. we even outcamp snake.
we have tons of range and you don't have the best. with proper spacing we should never get hit by one of your ground moves. theoretically anyway.
your aerials are scary but we should be able to overcome them. yellows will go through your main approach (i think it is) of fair. i don't think your SH goes over our fsmash, that needs to be tested, so we could fsmash and keep you away.
also, pivot grab pivot grab pivot grab
that's all the general stuff i could think of....
please correct me because i know very little about ness
in general though, olimar outranges ness on the ground (no surprise, right?) and fsmash is a great spacer. grab range is huge with killer throws as well which will more than likely kill ness around the early 100's. edgegaurding will be tough for both of them, as you give too little credit to olimar's recovery.
a tippered bat is scary, but we shouldn't let you space that at all
your bthrow will kill us pretty early but our throws are just as strong (purple uthrow is stronger >:])
also, if it doesn't kill us we'll recover
do a lot of your moves send in an upward trajectory, or horizontal? if not horizontal we have a high chance of recovering.
we can spam pikmin as much as we want. no matter what you say you will take damage from the little fukers. and how can we not camp you? the only ones we can't outcamp are wolf and arguably falco. we even outcamp snake.
we have tons of range and you don't have the best. with proper spacing we should never get hit by one of your ground moves. theoretically anyway.
your aerials are scary but we should be able to overcome them. yellows will go through your main approach (i think it is) of fair. i don't think your SH goes over our fsmash, that needs to be tested, so we could fsmash and keep you away.
also, pivot grab pivot grab pivot grab
that's all the general stuff i could think of....
please correct me because i know very little about ness
Master Knight DH
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2008
- Messages
- 460
I'm going 55-45 Ness's favor VS Oli. *gasp* Ness can Up-Yoyo against diagonal attacks. Of course, Olimar will probably get Ness with the F-Air anyway if he's managing a helicopter attack to begin with. For all that it is Oli's clearest option, it's not that bad off. Ness may have to mess it up a bit. But he can still take a fair bit of punishment.
Also, Ness's PSI Thunder Missile recovery is harder to gimp.
Also, Ness's PSI Thunder Missile recovery is harder to gimp.
Before I start, this is not me saying, "Oh, Ness is so much better than Olimar!" This is just me trying to get the facts straight.
More is still to be tested. I have to get ready for work, unfortunately.
PK Fire outranges Olimar's f-smash and grab. His f-smash can create a fire pillar if you don't call your Pikmin back quick enough. None of the Pikmin, even the red ones will go through the fire pillar after Ness has created one using his PK Fire on a Pikmin. This is all done with an f-smash. Fortunately for Olimar, his Pikmin fly over PK Fire when Ness fires it. However, once that pillar fire is up, you're better off trying something else.
Ness' attacks do a little bit of both. No one said you can't camp. By all means do that.
Nair seems to outprioritize Olimar's u-smash, d-smash and f-smash. The only one that seems to really work with d-smash and f-smash against Ness' nair are the yellow Pikmin. Than again, in order for Ness to not get injured by Olimar's d-smash is for him to not do it so early or too late. The same applies for his nair vs Olimar's f-smash. But for some reason, the yellow Pikmin seem to still injure Ness anyway. Ness' neutral A seems to cancel out d-smash and f-smash. Of course doing this can trade hits, so either the Pikmin die or Ness gets hurt.
More is still to be tested. I have to get ready for work, unfortunately.
AdmantNESS
Smash Ace
Like was said earlier, if Side-B is spammed, Pk Fire will make a Pillar to to stop it. Red Pikmin may not be damaged but the pillar will stop them from moving or latching on.
And while Olimar can shield-grab very well, if an unpredicted yoyo is used at close-enough range, Olimar may get hit. Though it wont happen to an Olimar who watches the space or can predict it. That yoyo can stop Olimars who gets in too close. Just dont be predictable with it. Either Up or Down-smash.
And a circled Pk Thunder with the tail I believe should also stop side-B also. But the Sheild-grabbing is really something to watch out for. Cause of how strong that up-smash and up-aerial is, its really not advisible to attack when above Olimar. Very bad idea. Ness's Down-air is bad against those two attacks. Only use it if you knock down-olimar and use a down-air after they use their get-up attack to get them in the air again or if you try to spike in the air or if they whiff a grab.
Of course, PKT2 will KO Olimar early, but like all PKT2s it really requires good set-up and prediction skills or a mistake from the Olimar. And against a good camping, sheild-grabbing Olimar, thats gonna be tough. Stunning Oli with the tail into hitting with PKT2 wont be easy if they constantly stay away or fall away from you if you manage to knock them into the air.
At close-range, you have to spot-dodge that sheild or running grab and punish the lag appropriatly. I mean you MUST spot-dodge that grab at all costs. Unless you can hit them with the Yoyos lingering hitbox, which only works at close or medium to close range, which wont happen if they predict it or stay out of range. Punishing the lag of a whiffed running grab or sheild-grab may include fast attacks like a quick short hop neutral aerial. Grabbing also works.
Thats my 2 cents on it. I do need more experience though against good Olis though.
And while Olimar can shield-grab very well, if an unpredicted yoyo is used at close-enough range, Olimar may get hit. Though it wont happen to an Olimar who watches the space or can predict it. That yoyo can stop Olimars who gets in too close. Just dont be predictable with it. Either Up or Down-smash.
And a circled Pk Thunder with the tail I believe should also stop side-B also. But the Sheild-grabbing is really something to watch out for. Cause of how strong that up-smash and up-aerial is, its really not advisible to attack when above Olimar. Very bad idea. Ness's Down-air is bad against those two attacks. Only use it if you knock down-olimar and use a down-air after they use their get-up attack to get them in the air again or if you try to spike in the air or if they whiff a grab.
Of course, PKT2 will KO Olimar early, but like all PKT2s it really requires good set-up and prediction skills or a mistake from the Olimar. And against a good camping, sheild-grabbing Olimar, thats gonna be tough. Stunning Oli with the tail into hitting with PKT2 wont be easy if they constantly stay away or fall away from you if you manage to knock them into the air.
At close-range, you have to spot-dodge that sheild or running grab and punish the lag appropriatly. I mean you MUST spot-dodge that grab at all costs. Unless you can hit them with the Yoyos lingering hitbox, which only works at close or medium to close range, which wont happen if they predict it or stay out of range. Punishing the lag of a whiffed running grab or sheild-grab may include fast attacks like a quick short hop neutral aerial. Grabbing also works.
Thats my 2 cents on it. I do need more experience though against good Olis though.
asob4
Smash Champion
it seems none of us have any good experience vs each others characters >_>
if vicegrip goes this saturday we will discuss and play matches
if vicegrip goes this saturday we will discuss and play matches
neomadgic
Smash Journeyman
I've played shrinkray, but that was too long ago.
neomadgic
Smash Journeyman
If Vicegrip goes to the tournament, you guys should record the match (friendly or not)!
asob4
Smash Champion
yeah we should haha
IF he goes
IF he goes
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Doesn't Vicegrip main Martio (intentional typo)
jorge199494
Smash Apprentice
Man, I still don't get how Ike is in slight advatage. He pounds ness. My worst match-up. Just my opinion
thesage
Smash Hero
lern to sheild. SRSLY
Ike can be really tough. I've come across good Ike's and bad Ike's. I lost to both, sadly because I didn't keep in mind that Ike has amazing power. However, most of my matches against Ike, I've been able to win most of the time mainly because the first time Brawl came out, that's all I've every really come across and so I believe that might be a reason I have it easy against most Ike mains. They may not have projectile or speed, but they have strength and range.
asob4
Smash Champion
vicegrip = so cal ness main
Hoser
Smash Ace
Some things will always remain a mystery.
Ike has a few things on Ness that I don't think some of you know here, either.
For example, Ike has the same CG that Marth has on him (but just like Marth's, you can get out with extra inch DI). Ground release to Jab is a true combo on Ness. And air release to F-air might be a true combo on him too (we're still testing it out).
There's other things, but I'm not in the mood to go thinking right now.
thesage
Smash Hero
It would be funny if Ike could grab release to f-smash.
Hoser
Smash Ace
Well start laughing, because we can :0
But we can only do it to Squirtle (and possibly Gannondorf) on ice (like in PS2)
But we can only do it to Squirtle (and possibly Gannondorf) on ice (like in PS2)
Grab release to jab works, but it also is worse than a throw. Just SDI properly and only the first hit of the jab will hit you, and no follow up is going to be possible with jab cancelling. If Ike does this to you he basically wastes his grab.
Ness does have advantage over Ike, mainly because of pk thunder. But it's a small advantage.
Ness does have advantage over Ike, mainly because of pk thunder. But it's a small advantage.
Hoser
Smash Ace
Well it all depends where the Ike does it as well. If you're right by the ledge, Ness doesn't have room to SDI out of it. It's situational, but Ike is a situational character.
We're doing the Lucas match-up discussion now, so we'll probably be doing the Ness one soon as well.
We're doing the Lucas match-up discussion now, so we'll probably be doing the Ness one soon as well.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
And another one bites the dust.
Anyway, we haven't discussed ANYTHING about Olimar.
Anyway, we haven't discussed ANYTHING about Olimar.
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
I like to PKfire ike. His aerials are slow (except Bair), so I don't have to worry about him DI-ing out and sex-kicking me before i hit him.
PKT2 punish Fsmash 4 lulz
PKT2 punish Fsmash 4 lulz
yummynbeefy
Smash Champion
im liking my odds i can beat mks alot though i wouldnt say he has any major disadvantages
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
I Did, they didn't show up. 
Forget it, moving on. (I'll revisit it later)
Forget it, moving on. (I'll revisit it later)
M15t3R E
Smash Master
I have an idea of how the match-up goes but still not too much experience with Ness.
Would anyone like to play my Pikachu so I can determine some things about this match-up?
Would anyone like to play my Pikachu so I can determine some things about this match-up?
thesage
Smash Hero
Wow wtf. I just came back from Richmond like today lol. I visited VCU XP. Come up to one of chu's biweekliez. It's only a 2 hour drive.
M15t3R E
Smash Master
Do they play mostly Melee there? Because I'm good in Melee but not a pro :/
An experienced Pikachu is tough! Luckily for Ness, he's realized PSI Magnet. When above Pikachu, Ness can use his PSI Magnet to absorb Pikachu's Thunder. He can obviously do the same to his Thunder Jolt. However, that's not all Pikachu consists of. He's got an amazing down smash which is really brutal! He can rack up a lot of damage on his opponent, grab them and toss them above him thus leading to Pikachu's Thunder attack! If Ness gets caught in this situation, his best option is to probably air dodge to the left or right since the PSI Magnet comes out a bit slow.
It seems Ness' up smash and Pikachu's forward smash come very close to hitting, but Pikachu's probably goes further. Both characters can approach each other almost equally. Pikachu probably has the upper hand, however. As far as recovery goes, Pikachu's is most likely better. However, there is a start up frame that is clearly visible when Pikachu uses his Quick Attack to return to the stage which makes it possible for Ness to spike Pikachu. Pikachu may be able to use his Thunder Jolt to cancel out Ness' PK Thunder. However, for both characters, it doesn't necessarily mean spiking or gimping will occur.
As far as horizontal returns, Pikachu's got his forward B and Ness can use his second jump if he still has it. Pikachu can also do this, but I'm just pointing out what both characters can do. As we all know, Ness has his PK Thunder, Flash and Fire at his disposal making him quite the annoying opponent to face.
It seems Ness' up smash and Pikachu's forward smash come very close to hitting, but Pikachu's probably goes further. Both characters can approach each other almost equally. Pikachu probably has the upper hand, however. As far as recovery goes, Pikachu's is most likely better. However, there is a start up frame that is clearly visible when Pikachu uses his Quick Attack to return to the stage which makes it possible for Ness to spike Pikachu. Pikachu may be able to use his Thunder Jolt to cancel out Ness' PK Thunder. However, for both characters, it doesn't necessarily mean spiking or gimping will occur.
As far as horizontal returns, Pikachu's got his forward B and Ness can use his second jump if he still has it. Pikachu can also do this, but I'm just pointing out what both characters can do. As we all know, Ness has his PK Thunder, Flash and Fire at his disposal making him quite the annoying opponent to face.