PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

Levitas · Nov 18, 2008

Doesn't make his point less valid. nor this one.

_clinton · Nov 18, 2008

Hylian said:
I wasn't talking to or about you.

My good man...this is a debate thread...I was just disagreeing with your statement...nothing personal ok?

PKNintendo · Nov 19, 2008

Next will be... Fox. G&W is last!

PKSkyler · Nov 19, 2008

PKNintendo said:
Next will be... Fox. G&W is last!

Why not next...............

PKNintendo · Nov 19, 2008

PKSkyler said:
Why not next...............

BECAUSE IS SAID SO ><.

The CF mains will be here though...

Gaussis · Nov 19, 2008

Lol.

You should start doing the higher tiers, PK Nintendo. The ROB one wasn't so bad. Though G&W will get very ugly.

thesage · Nov 19, 2008

Wait I don't get it. Edrees said GaW isn't that bad of a matchup then Hylain said it is. Neither of them provided any actual arguments.

I have conflicting feeling about this matchup cuz everybody says it's OMFG hard and then all the good Ness players say it's easy. My own personal experience in the matchup makes it relatively even so w/e >_>;

A2ZOMG · Nov 19, 2008

G&W vs Ness is very bad for Ness. Ness doesn't have reliable answers to the B-air, and his recovery is easily gimped by G&W. G&W wins out in terms of dealing damage and KO moves in general too. G&W also has grab release Down-B, and if he fills up on PK Fire and Thunder bolts, it could easily score a 1HKO.

Ness is a hard matchup for Falcon. One of Falcon's hardest matchups in the lower tiers IMO. He's small and hard to hit. He has moves both in the air and on the ground which can shut down Falcon pretty solidly due to Falcon's lack of any priority or decent approach.

Ref · Nov 19, 2008

No more G&W talk. It'll be discussed later. Captain falcon is being discussed right now.

Gaussis · Nov 19, 2008

It isn't very bad vs G&W. Don't argue for G&W yet. Oh and grab-release to bucket doesn't work. Ness DI's too far from the initial hit.

cutter · Nov 19, 2008

grab release to Oil Panic doesn't work. GW's grab release animation is just plain atrocious.

I would rather just Dthrow techchase Ness into frame 2 rapage.

A2ZOMG · Nov 19, 2008

Bah, nevermind, NESSBOUNDER has a lot of screwy grab release data.

F5Hazardousdoc · Nov 20, 2008

Oh hi.

Falcon will kill ya silently. Since he's actually snake in disguise. Ahahaha... :|

Falcon vs Ness
40:60
I'll type up a text block when I feel like it.

Gaussis · Nov 20, 2008

Lol. Wait, that means his knee is a

fake

On a more serious note, where are all the falcons? They won't show their moves to us.

Kitamerby · Nov 20, 2008

Captain Falcon ***** Ness. Discussion over.

Gaussis · Nov 20, 2008

Joking aside, it's quite sad that there has been almost no discussion of Falcon (lol @ G&W).

Hylian · Nov 20, 2008

Levitas said:
Doesn't make his point less valid. nor this one.

Uh, yes it does. I was talking to Colin. He responded saying that the Ness boards think a lot of match-ups are bad, but that doesn't have anything to do with what I was saying. I was talking about COLIN not the ness boards. I've seen him try and argue Marth vs Ness being in the realm of even. So I told him to realize that ness does have some bad match-ups. I don't know why someone other then Colin would respond to that.

_clinton said:
My good man...this is a debate thread...I was just disagreeing with your statement...nothing personal ok?

Huh? Read above. I wasn't talking to you, or about the ness boards, or what you guys think. I was talking about colin. You are not colin so you disagreeing with me doesn't do anything. Reading comprehension is a good thing...

Sorry if you were confused.

ColinJF · Nov 20, 2008

I think Ness has bad match ups. Just because he doesn't have a bad match up versus a certain character doesn't mean he doesn't have any bad match ups. (I don't think it's even versus Marth by the way.) I'd rather not continue this line of discussion in this topic though.

Hylian · Nov 20, 2008

ColinJF said:
I think Ness has bad match ups. Just because he doesn't have a bad match up versus a certain character doesn't mean he doesn't have any bad match ups. (I don't think it's even versus Marth by the way.) I'd rather not continue this line of discussion in this topic though.

Fair enough.

I might bring the match-up to the GW boards since you guys seem adament about avoiding it

.

PKNintendo · Nov 20, 2008

Okay!

Hylian. (tips hat)

cutter · Nov 20, 2008

Scratch that; I'll just wait for OBM to update the GW matchup discussion and we'll probably do Ness next there.

_clinton · Nov 20, 2008

So...does anyone know about mockwaveland?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wrA0CloSu10

LC and YI (2 somewhat bad stages for Ness)

All happen to be liked by Falcon I guess...

Uffe · Nov 21, 2008

^^^ That's cool. But the name sucks. </blogs>

ViceGrip · Nov 21, 2008

fair is one of the best reliable answers to gaw's bair in the whole game. Tons of charcters don't have an answer to gaw's bair but ness isn't one of them. Lrn2space.

but we're not on gaw.

we're on falcon and i'm tired. post pending. 60/40 Ness for now w/ no reasoning lol.

Brinzy · Nov 21, 2008

Why bother with a weak fair when you could just shield the stupid thing and grab with Ness and his good grab range? I guess if it works, use it.

We're about to be on G&W, so I guess it doesn't really matter too much. I think that the numbers we're giving are fair-ish, though it'd be nice if someone from the other side posted something...

On an unrelated note, instead of "lrn2____" crap, why not go into exactly what needs to be done? (That is to say, go into more detail about "spacing", because apparently people are still having big trouble with it.)

ViceGrip · Nov 21, 2008

lrn2 start your move b4 his or come up at an angle below them? lol

<3

lr2 statements are too fun

EdreesesPieces · Nov 21, 2008

Sometimes personal playstyles matter more than character match ups. For example I feel Marth has a 6-40 advantage on Peach, but I personally find it one of the easiest characters to fight against with Peach. For me Ness vs GAW is the same. I don't see much in ness favor, but for some reason the way I play just works, thats why i picked it up. Ovbviously a ton of characters do way better, but i have success at the matchup and I like using ness, its not 100% a strategic move, its about fun too.

PKSkyler · Nov 21, 2008

Successor of Raphael said:
just shield the stupid thing and grab with Ness and his good grab range?

Ness` grab range is horrible, among the worst in the game. and smart G&W could space away from it. That said, G&W will still probably fall into Ness` range.

Gaussis · Nov 21, 2008

If you want to punish the turtle, learn to shield it, jump in between the transition from the air to the ground (the turtle hitbox disappears), and punish with aerials. It isn't very difficult to tell when the turtle hitbox stops before the ground one comes up.

As long as you aren't predictable, G&W is relatively easy.

EdreesesPieces said:
Sometimes personal playstyles matter more than character match ups. For example I feel Marth has a 6-40 advantage on Peach, but I personally find it one of the easiest characters to fight against with Peach. For me Ness vs GAW is the same. I don't see much in ness favor, but for some reason the way I play just works, thats why i picked it up. Ovbviously a ton of characters do way better, but i have success at the matchup and I like using ness, its not 100% a strategic move, its about fun too.

To add to Edreeses's quote, Ness is centered around the playstyle of the player much more than most characters. For example, using a typical approach against ROB will make you feel that he has a massive advantage. Same with Zelda. It's when you play to punish that these characters begin to suffer. Changing playstyles in matches is something to consider when playing as Ness, seeing as his moveset gives him such flexibilty.

PKNintendo · Nov 21, 2008

CAPTAIN FARUKON!

Okay, my 2 cents.
I think it's 6-4 for Ness.

Quick summary, CF usually has trouble fighting Ness in the air. On the ground, his priority is crap, most of his moves can be canceled by Ness ftilt or so. It's that bad e.c.t. He has difficulty landing his killers because they're
a)Impractical (Falcon punch, Knee of justice)
b)slow (Fsmash)
c)weak(upsmash, downsmash)

I mean, the yo-yo's work well on the captain since they have oodles of priority.

Unfortunately Ness has some grab release problems against him. Fortunately, their not that bad. CF can't knee of justice Ness, (he can only do that to Wario) Ness can eat an uair... buts that's pretty much it.

To be honest, this is one of Ness easier matchups.

Gaussis · Nov 21, 2008

On the ground, it's not too bad for Falcon. He can manuever faster than Ness can on the ground. That said, he has to wait for Ness to whiff a laggy move while Ness can try to pressure Falcon. Falcon doesn't focus too much on killing. Rather, he plays a nasty gimp game using tipman uairs (uairs that hit with the end hitbox) to knock Ness lower, nonsweetspotted knees, and he has his spike and Falcon dive. It gives Falcon a decent edgeguarding game.

I would say 6:4 Ness. However, I get the feeling it's more towards neutral, so I'm not sure on this one.

Ref · Nov 21, 2008

I'd go with 55-45 on this instead of 60-40

_clinton · Nov 21, 2008

You'd think the Falcon boards would respond...anyway...anyone want to play?

Uffe · Nov 21, 2008

Ref said:
I'd go with 55-45 on this instead of 60-40

I'm for that. Despite popular belief, Falcon is actually a pretty good character if used correctly, even if he does have poor priority. Especially against Ness.

Gaussis · Nov 21, 2008

It's pretty sad that there wasn't much discussion going on about Falcon. PK Nintendo, can you just do Fox now? It's been a few days already and we've only had little discussion about Falcon.

_clinton · Nov 21, 2008

PKNintendo said:
Quick summary, CF usually has trouble fighting Ness in the air. On the ground, his priority is crap, most of his moves can be canceled by Ness ftilt or so. It's that bad e.c.t. He has difficulty landing his killers because they're
a)Impractical (Falcon punch, Knee of justice)
b)slow (Fsmash)
c)weak(upsmash, downsmash)

Dsmash is stronger then Fsmash...

It is also slower on the warm up...

Actually that is my biggest issue with playing as Falcon...it isn't the fact that everything over rides Falcon (that really doesn't bug me)

All of his bloody kill moves are above 15 frames...except for his main 6 frame one (Uair)...and that has issues like our Nair does (Spam ^_^), the other 6 frame...Nair (still...getting the 2nd hit...+ spam) and his 10 frame Bair (but that is still kind of hard to hit with because of range...I mean I think our 10 frame Bair has more range)

1. Falcon Punch (really is only useful if the foe is making a mistake IMO...btw it is slower then D3's Fsmash...)
2. Utilt (17 frames...I mean really)
3. Fsmash (can be pivoted at least)
4. Dsmash (Really slow)
5. Usmash (even then that has issues with hitting on the 2nd hit)
6. The Knee (still faster then his Dair and Ness' Dair...but is somewhat hard to learn how to time right now...IMO as well)
7. Dair (The Nipple hit...but god is it hard to hit with)
8. Air Falcon Kick (Still has other issues...I mean it is a good move to punish with IMO...so that killing power the air has goes away)
9. Falcon Dive (Just somewhat hard to get into a good spot for using it IMO as well)

12 moves that he can KO with...

PKNintendo · Nov 22, 2008

Fox now. Im leaving CF at a 6-4 since I saw two CF's say that.

And... Meh, I haven't really seen anything CF can do to Ness besides grab release to uair (which he can do to kirby and jiggs too)

Levitas · Nov 22, 2008

fox is pretty evenish. somewhere in the range of 6:4 to 4:6.

I'd put it right at a 5:5.

PKNintendo · Nov 22, 2008

Levitas said:
fox is pretty evenish. somewhere in the range of 6:4 to 4:6.

I'd put it right at a 5:5.

How so? Any specs on the matchup?

Levitas · Nov 22, 2008

fox likes his Dair to utilt (and then later dair to usmash).

We like to not get hit by that so much. So we stay in the air a bunch.

Fox against ness in the air is usually fox trying to hit our nair with his fair, us trying to fair his fair, him backing off and trying to get us when we land, and us doing other stuff to him when he's on the ground.

PKT is useless. period.

yoyo's are semi-effective. Usmash into aerial followups are about as effective as they ever are on any character.

Fox lasercamps ness, so ness gets kinda sorta close so that fox can't laser, but then either character closes the gap and actually approaches.

Fox moves faster, ness is heavier, fox dies to bthrow somewhat early, ness has a somewhat unreliable recovery due to fox's massive second jump and nair blah blah blah.

My point is that it's really interactive, and neither one has a technique that dominates this matchup or forces a major change in strategy.

PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

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