Play with Honor , Make Brawl Fun - With Some Thoughts from Mew2King

Havokk said:

I disagree, this was an epic match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPaJvNJsqDY (Lain vs Anther)

Click to expand...

By banning ledgecampping, you are forcing Anther (pikachu) to get ***** by the IC's CG, which obviously isn't fair for pikachu...

Seriously people, are we having another one of these whiny debates over "I suck at spacing so bad I get shield grabbed by the IC's...blah, blah, blah" or "I'm dumb enough to use fox against a pikachu" or "I'm stupid enough to pick mario against a DDD"?

Why does everyone seem to think that ALL the japanese are super aggro based on that one zentore video? Ridiculous.

BentoBox said:

Why does everyone seem to think that ALL the japanese are super aggro based on that one zentore video? Ridiculous.

Click to expand...

That gives them a reason to whine about how "campy" American Brawl is.

Whether you're talking about a fighting game or talking about a sport, competition is the most important goal of that sport in order to make it effective and accepted.

For competition to exist, you have your opponents pit their skills against one another to determine who the more skillful opponent is. In Tennis, for instance, two players hit the ball within a bounds to try and get their opponent to miss. They have similar skills, the same equipment and the same rules to work with - that's a competition.

While Smash Bros. and Tennis are very different, a spike is a similar technique in both games. Spikes can be avoided entirely before hand by a skillful player, but if a spike gets set up, it's very likely the victim player will immediately lose a point. A player inexperienced to either game will immediately deem the concept of a spike as "lame" "cheap" or "unfair". But once that player is educated on how they could have avoided the spike and how situational it is to perform, that player realizes it's a unique and important aspect of the game that anyone can prevent or utilize.

But when we start to introduce aspects to a game where the other opponent can't react or can't do anything to prevent a scenario, the competitiveness of the game is lost. Let's take a grab infinite, for example. A player is bound to be vulnerable at some time of play - because of how long it takes to knock a stock off of an opponent, players will be put in a position where they can be grabbed. If "Don't get hit" had any merit, you'd be able to find a video of someone getting 3 stocked without the other taking any damage (but you can't). With no way to prevent a grab and nothing to do once you are being infinited, the competitive aspects of the game are abolished.

And that's really the most important difference between a spike (gimp, ledgehog, or any other technique) and an infinite, chain grab, ledge stall, etc. One can be prevented while the other cannot.

While everyone plays to win, there isn't a game if there isn't competition. If playing to win is all that matters to a person, then where is the line draw between an exploit and cheating? Whether it's within the game's code or not shouldn't matter - all that should matter is if the scenario is preventable or counterable by an opponent. If it's unreasonable, a rule is formed to prevent that event. That retains competition and a test of skills between players.

The problem with a lot of people here is that they don't want to bother with rules because they make it hard to monitor the game and make sure those rules are enforced. I think we all want to lynch the people responsible for screwing up Brawl so badly, but the best thing we can do is make up rules to prevent anti-competitive glitches and mechanics in the game. And if "playing to win" is all that matters and "play to compete" is ignored, then get used to a game that's as lackluster as rock-paper-scissors, checkers and tic-tac-toe. We all know how popular those games are.

Mr. Rogu said:

the thing is nobodys cool enough to play with honor. pretty much all smash players in USA only play to win, they dont care how they do it, whether its camping, spamming, chaingrabs, infinates, meta knight, overall no one cares about honor, thats pathetic.

Click to expand...

spoken by a truly close minded person. doing anything you can to win if anything would be "pathetic" because it's desperate. and look where that has gotten us, trying to ban characters "metaknight", I'm willing to take a guess that there are no issues with trying to ban characters there... alot of the stuff you mentioned above is what takes the fun out of the game which was a big point that this thread mentioned. I'm assuming you main fox, Go play a pro falco like sk92, seth, or chillin and tell me how fun the match was after you get 3 stocked.

People will always play to win. Telling people to play with "honour" is basically telling people to play worse. Competitive gaming is only about winning, and unless something is outright banned people will not stop using annoying techniques.

You guys are playing the wrong game :D

Hyrus said:

If "Don't get hit" had any merit, you'd be able to find a video of someone getting 3 stocked without the other taking any damage (but you can't). But I can.

Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzFd9HOGKWI

BAM!


The point is, Ledgestalling can be countered by NOT letting your opponent get the lead. It's your fault your opponent is winning. If he doesn't have the lead and he ledgestalls, let him ledgestall, you win. Also, when he is dangling on the edge, just run off the stage and bair, which usually stagespikes them. If they are using double jumps to refresh their recovery, either edgehog them to force an up b (usually puts them in a helpless stage) or time a bair to stage spike them when they aren't invinicible. If they then try to ledge stall with up b (giving invincibility frames or super armour frames on their up b), simple edgehog them and watch them die.

For my argument on infinites and CG's, read my previous posts.

The difference between planking and CGing is that planking is stalling the game and is a cheap tactic. GCing takes skill and players can avoid it by spacing correctly.

The japanese play differently because that's how they see it should be played. Yes, we'd beat them, but that's not the point. Brawl is fun, but tournaments are about money, you must remember that. So if you get camped or CGed efficiently, that's on you.

I think people are forgetting that the Japanese use frekin rob. Rob, ladies and gentleman. They camp.

Hey everybody, I just had this crazy, fantastic idea!!! Why don't we actually try to be good at our characters, and not just camp! Any twobit, half ***** 'smasher' can stand at the end of a stage and spam projectiles, or ledge stall, or whatever else you lazy 'smashers' like to do. Not anyone can stand toe-to-toe and have a real battle. Don't feed me this 'it's all about winning' bull****, the truth of it is, is that all you people who rely on camping to win a battle, are hardly even playing the game any more. Calling people scrubs for wanting to play a fighting game instead of a waiting game is ridiculous. I like to have a real battle, and I welcome competition from some camper idiots online if you would care too. I am more than positive that real players like m2k are going to find every possible way to shut down all the crap that you 'just to win' people are coming up with. One last note, I see a lot of people talking trash about the japanese players, but I have a feeling they would run circles around some of you self righteous camping morons.
'

Yay, first post, lol.

While competitive gaming is about winning, keep in mind that Brawl is still *somewhat* new and that given enough time, people will find a way around camping and eventually, hopefully sooner than later, only better players will be playing in tournaments because the gap between competitive players and casual players will widen to such an extent that the casual players won't enter as often. At which point in time, the games will be played with more "honour," (gogo British spelling of it?) even unknowingly, because the play level will be much higher than it is currently. I have a friend up in Boston, and at all their tournies for the longest time it was eaxactly how the national scene currently is. All camping, ledge camping, ect. After awhile, everyone got better, and started actually playing because they didn't need to resort to such boring methods to win. Granted, if they were getting their butts kicked, they would start camping again, but, for the most part it is mostly avoided.

Just give it time and the problem should fix itself. Well, from my perspective at least.

K 2 said:

The point is, Ledgestalling can be countered by NOT letting your opponent get the lead. It's your fault your opponent is winning.

Click to expand...

If getting the lead is so important then why isn't the game permanently stuck with everyone at 300%? Brush up on your Risk vs Reward while you're at it.

mdmfromdaridge said:

Hey everybody, I just had this crazy, fantastic idea!!! Why don't we actually try to be good at our characters, and not just camp! Any twobit, half ***** 'smasher' can stand at the end of a stage and spam projectiles, or ledge stall, or whatever else you lazy 'smashers' like to do. Not anyone can stand toe-to-toe and have a real battle. Don't feed me this 'it's all about winning' bull****, the truth of it is, is that all you people who rely on camping to win a battle, are hardly even playing the game any more. Calling people scrubs for wanting to play a fighting game instead of a waiting game is ridiculous. I like to have a real battle, and I welcome competition from some camper idiots online if you would care too. I am more than positive that real players like m2k are going to find every possible way to shut down all the crap that you 'just to win' people are coming up with. One last note, I see a lot of people talking trash about the japanese players, but I have a feeling they would run circles around some of you self righteous camping morons.
'

Click to expand...

Have you seen anyone camp/ledgestalls and wins tourneys? If so, please link me videos to them.

I'm more than happy to let my opponents plank. I have plenty of explosives for them

Hyrus said:

If getting the lead is so important then why isn't the game permanently stuck with everyone at 300%? Brush up on your Risk vs Reward while you're at it.

Click to expand...

And getting the lead isn't important?

Risk vs Reward vs. STOP COMPLAINING! You can have all the risk vs reward you want by letting them ledgecamp. Stop complaining if you aren't going to take a risk.

Risk: You might mess up timing so you jump back on the stage
Reward: Your opponent probably dies/panics and then dies

8AngeL8 said:

I'm more than happy to let my opponents plank. I have plenty of explosives for them

Click to expand...

That's the right attitude.

well then i guess we can begin sandbagging every few attacks to make it seem like theirs hitstun in brawl now to make it more exciting ^^

Fundamentally this game is warfare. And discussions like this are ones that mimic The Geneva Convention. So we can lay out logic, reason, sensibility and "rules". However the primal urge to be victorious is the goal of warfare. So I think you can make rules and argue, but nothing will change, the nature of the issue that is.

All of this applies to using MK only in tourneys.
And the **** vid is made in May, fool..

M2K is a scrub.

Scrub has an unwarranted negative connotation. If we're playing in a tourney finals for money, and you suddenly start convulsing, am I going to be all "now's my chance", and push your guy off the stage three times, or am I going to pause, take out my cell phone, and call 911. I'm going to do the latter, and any decent human being would. Does that make me a scrub in Sirlin's eyes? Hell yeah. So what? Being a scrub is not a bad thing. Being a douche is.

Ledgestalling is a doucebaggy move, and MK is a douchebag character. It's okay, we can be scrubs.

mdmfromdaridge said:

Hey everybody, I just had this crazy, fantastic idea!!! Why don't we actually try to be good at our characters, and not just camp! Any twobit, half ***** 'smasher' can stand at the end of a stage and spam projectiles, or ledge stall, or whatever else you lazy 'smashers' like to do. Not anyone can stand toe-to-toe and have a real battle. Don't feed me this 'it's all about winning' bull****, the truth of it is, is that all you people who rely on camping to win a battle, are hardly even playing the game any more. Calling people scrubs for wanting to play a fighting game instead of a waiting game is ridiculous. I like to have a real battle, and I welcome competition from some camper idiots online if you would care too. I am more than positive that real players like m2k are going to find every possible way to shut down all the crap that you 'just to win' people are coming up with. One last note, I see a lot of people talking trash about the japanese players, but I have a feeling they would run circles around some of you self righteous camping morons.
'

Click to expand...

Firstly, camping =/= spamming projectiles from a distance. If you'd played Melee, you'd know that Marth was a great camper. He camped right in your face. Metaknight in Brawl can camp as well aside from ledgestalling despite having no projectiles.

Camping well takes skill. Someone who only spams projectiles without much thought will never go far. That's bad camping.

No good player ever relies on spamming projectiles/ chaingrabs to win. It's only a part of their game. Have you ever seen the Falco - ICs matchup? Falco essentially has to keep his distance perfectly to win. Try rushing in aggressively and you'll be wrecked.

Japanese players play fast and flashy. They also leave big holes when they play. It certainly looks better from a spectators point of view. But it would lose outright to a defensive playstyle because that's exactly what the game engine promotes (possibly with the exception of Diddy/ Metaknight).

By the way, M2K camps with Metaknight. He just doesn't do it as obviously as Plank does.

Nitrix said:

People will always play to win. Telling people to play with "honour" is basically telling people to play worse. Competitive gaming is only about winning, and unless something is outright banned people will not stop using annoying techniques.

Click to expand...

I'm sick of people like this.

No, it is not telling people to play worse. If anything, it's telling them to play better. Finding a way around the stupid chain grabs and camping, etc.

you'll do anything to win. Even if it means beating up the person you're playing (in RL).

1048576 said:

M2K is a scrub.

Scrub has an unwarranted negative connotation. If we're playing in a tourney finals for money, and you suddenly start convulsing, am I going to be all "now's my chance", and push your guy off the stage three times, or am I going to pause, take out my cell phone, and call 911. I'm going to do the latter, and any decent human being would. Does that make me a scrub in Sirlin's eyes? Hell yeah. So what? Being a scrub is not a bad thing. Being a douche is.

Ledgestalling is a doucebaggy move, and MK is a douchebag character. It's okay, we can be scrubs.

Click to expand...

This is utter truth right here.

I have a serious question for you guys.

If your opponent doesn't let you back onto the stage, and you "ledge camp," is that "stalling"?

I.e. Marth vs bowser. Marth is on the stage and bowser is hanging on the edge. Marth can cover all of bowsers get up options, so bowser is forced to "ledge camp" to renew his invincibility (to avoid marth's fsmash)

kRaZyAzN said:

No, it is not telling people to play worse. If anything, it's telling them to play better. .

Click to expand...

People can win with camping. People win less when they stop camping. Ergo, telling people to stop camping is telling them to play worse. (If they played better without camping, they'd have stopped already...)



The point of ledgecamping isn't to stall out the clock, by the way. It's just to make the other person fight on your terms - near the edge.

If I'm playing as Falco on, say, Jungle Japes, as soon as I get a lead, I'm going over to the leftmost platform and staying there. If the other person stays at the middle bottom, well, neither of us can hit anyone else, we bounce around for a bit doing nothing until he has to approach. Alternatively, if I'm playing as Falco against a Kirby on pretty much any level, I'll spam a bunch of lasers. If Kirby ducks, nobody's gonna get hit, ever, but if he's behind in percent he has to approach.

Same with ledgecamping. MK goes to the edge, the opponent has to follow him, bait an attack and punish and get back the lead, at which point he gets to choose where the fight takes place. Wasting time only happens when the other person is stupid and doesn't realize that he has to approach.

There is nothing douchebaggy about any of this.

I can't believe honor in a video game would be worth more than 500 bucks for some of you guys. =/
But hey, ya know, if you don't want that money, I'll sure have it. Even if it means ledge camping, but, heck, sonic can't do that. xD

this game wasn't ment to be fun they'res players who have fun pissing the **** out of you just got deal with it

It's playing to your advantage. If your character lacks reliable kill moves, but has an amazing gimping game, he's playing intelligently when he ledge camps by minimizing his weaknesses and maximizing his strengths.

That's strategy. Are you guys going to ban strategy now? Or do we have to fight at a disadvantage because its honorable.

It's not honorable to take anyone anywhere now because it gives someone an advantage.
Ban all stages... except for PS1.
Let's ban all characters with an advantaged match up too, because it's not honorable to have an advantage.
No Items.
PS1.
Falcon Only.
Rawr.

aeghrur said:

It's not honorable to take anyone anywhere now because it gives someone an advantage.
Ban all stages... except for PS1.
Let's ban all characters too, because it's not honorable to have an advantage.
No Items.
PS1.
Falcon Only.
Rawr.

Click to expand...

Or we could have MK only.

Most people don't even stall in friendlies. They only do it at tournies. Tournies are to win, not to make the other player feel confortable with your playstyle.

aeghrur said:

It's not honorable to take anyone anywhere now because it gives someone an advantage.
Ban all stages... except for PS1.
Let's ban all characters with an advantaged match up too, because it's not honorable to have an advantage.
No Items.
PS1.
Falcon Only.
Rawr.

Click to expand...

How can I argue against such a beautifully crafted statement like that?

Chain-grabbing and camping are parts of the game that take some amount of skill to use. Neither will win a match for you, they're just part of the game. Don't ever think of banning them.
Infinites and Ledge-stalling could be moderated if someone put some **** effort in. Neither can really be stopped, but saying that one should be really allowed to do them is basically like breaking Metaknight even more.
Anything is allowed to win? 'K. More Infinite Dimensional Cape coming right up!
The Infinite cape was banned, but it could be used strategically and all that. Yet it was still outright banned. Think about that for a moment.

^It was banned because it depended on the player using it, the other player could not stop it or affect it unless they physically assaulted the MK user.

Ankoku said:

lol, why do people point out Zentore and Nyosuke as major representatives of Japan's metagame when it's not even a very recent video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B630SpV-UK4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlnPrVoRosY

Click to expand...

@:45 in the first vid, do all ROBs know how to do that?

K 2 said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzFd9HOGKWI

BAM!


The point is, Ledgestalling can be countered by NOT letting your opponent get the lead. It's your fault your opponent is winning. If he doesn't have the lead and he ledgestalls, let him ledgestall, you win. Also, when he is dangling on the edge, just run off the stage and bair, which usually stagespikes them. If they are using double jumps to refresh their recovery, either edgehog them to force an up b (usually puts them in a helpless stage) or time a bair to stage spike them when they aren't invinicible. If they then try to ledge stall with up b (giving invincibility frames or super armour frames on their up b), simple edgehog them and watch them die.

For my argument on infinites and CG's, read my previous posts.

Click to expand...

just want to say 2 things about that vid
1. the olimar sucks, he tried to down smash 2 times on his second stock with no pikmin.
2. he hit nana on his second stock, so techincally he didnt win without getting hit.

mdmfromdaridge said:

Hey everybody, I just had this crazy, fantastic idea!!! Why don't we actually try to be good at our characters, and not just camp! Any twobit, half ***** 'smasher' can stand at the end of a stage and spam projectiles, or ledge stall, or whatever else you lazy 'smashers' like to do. Not anyone can stand toe-to-toe and have a real battle. Don't feed me this 'it's all about winning' bull****, the truth of it is, is that all you people who rely on camping to win a battle, are hardly even playing the game any more. Calling people scrubs for wanting to play a fighting game instead of a waiting game is ridiculous. I like to have a real battle, and I welcome competition from some camper idiots online if you would care too. I am more than positive that real players like m2k are going to find every possible way to shut down all the crap that you 'just to win' people are coming up with. One last note, I see a lot of people talking trash about the japanese players, but I have a feeling they would run circles around some of you self righteous camping morons.
'

Click to expand...

its funny because most of the time you have to do it to beat it...
you can avoid being infinited by planking, and you can stop projectile spam if you infinite grab the other guy...
rofl

1048576 said:

M2K is a scrub.

Scrub has an unwarranted negative connotation. If we're playing in a tourney finals for money, and you suddenly start convulsing, am I going to be all "now's my chance", and push your guy off the stage three times, or am I going to pause, take out my cell phone, and call 911. I'm going to do the latter, and any decent human being would. Does that make me a scrub in Sirlin's eyes? Hell yeah. So what? Being a scrub is not a bad thing. Being a douche is.

Ledgestalling is a doucebaggy move, and MK is a douchebag character. It's okay, we can be scrubs.

Click to expand...

i put 100% of my backing behind this.
I might even put him in my sig...

kRaZyAzN said:

I'm sick of people like this.

No, it is not telling people to play worse. If anything, it's telling them to play better. Finding a way around the stupid chain grabs and camping, etc.

you'll do anything to win. Even if it means beating up the person you're playing (in RL).

Click to expand...

see my larger text above.

Dxt XXII said:

Most people don't even stall in friendlies. They only do it at tournies. Tournies are to win, not to make the other player feel confortable with your playstyle.

Click to expand...

this is true, i know lots of people that really enjoy playing brawl but they dont enter tourneys cause they dont feel like getting camped.
so they just play friendlys, and everyone knows this so they dont camp them.

everyones happy

oh and by the way, i wish i could find my quote that said how one of the reasons i like brawl is because i played sonic and everyone camps me and i have to find a way to beat it. and its soooo satisfying when i do

Yes, you can avoid being grabbed, or you can avoid the infinite, but there's nothing you could do about IDC if your opponent had enough technical consistancy. You can also stop ledgestalling, but you can't do squat against IDC.

I agree that the olimar sucks, that's why he got three stocked without dealing 1 % to the opponent. The video was for that one guy who said there wasn't a video where someone guy got threestocked without dealing any damage.

ftl said:

People can win with camping. People win less when they stop camping. Ergo, telling people to stop camping is telling them to play worse. (If they played better without camping, they'd have stopped already...)



The point of ledgecamping isn't to stall out the clock, by the way. It's just to make the other person fight on your terms - near the edge.

If I'm playing as Falco on, say, Jungle Japes, as soon as I get a lead, I'm going over to the leftmost platform and staying there. If the other person stays at the middle bottom, well, neither of us can hit anyone else, we bounce around for a bit doing nothing until he has to approach. Alternatively, if I'm playing as Falco against a Kirby on pretty much any level, I'll spam a bunch of lasers. If Kirby ducks, nobody's gonna get hit, ever, but if he's behind in percent he has to approach.

Same with ledgecamping. MK goes to the edge, the opponent has to follow him, bait an attack and punish and get back the lead, at which point he gets to choose where the fight takes place. Wasting time only happens when the other person is stupid and doesn't realize that he has to approach.

There is nothing douchebaggy about any of this.

Click to expand...

Admittedly, ledgecamping against Falco truly removes a ridiculously large deal of his options. Shooting lasers at Kirby is completely different; Kirby may take some %, but eventually he'll close on to Falco if he chooses not to duck. It's not exactly that simple for Falco when it's, say Metaknight on the ledge, everytime Falco tries something, he gets repelled back.

There is no problem with dropping off then hogging the ledge a few times to think out your options for getting back onstage. Ledgecamping excessively, on the other hand, is ridiculous. Especially with MK. The fact is some characters have their options severely, if not completely limited if you have an idea of what you're doing.

Ledgecamping is rather douchebaggy in Brawl. Especially with Metaknight.

So people namedrop M2K a lot.

Do you win if you have less percent than the other person and neither of you have lost a stock? If so, I think that should be changed