xoxokev
Smash Lord
50%?And yes 50% of this post is off the topic at hand
Lol, I clicked on this thread expecting to read about D3
p.s. Happy Thanksgiving
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PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]
- Thread starter Yink
- Start date
Lol, I clicked on this thread expecting to read about D3
p.s. Happy Thanksgiving
Luigi player
Smash Master
I would give Dedede the advantage here.
He can chaingrab you to the edge and then edgeguard you with bair. If your double jump isn't enough to get back to the edge (which it isn't if you got grabbed above 30 %) then you're dead.
Dededes bair > Ness fair
sad but true. It is faster and has more range. So you can only DJ-airdodge to avoid it and get back to the stage. If you have to use PKT he'll just be above you and Dedede is so fat that you'll hit him with the PKT head and you fall to your death.
Other than that PKFire is good to space and "camp" but still... PKF isn't that good.
65:35 or 60:40 for Dedede.
He can chaingrab you to the edge and then edgeguard you with bair. If your double jump isn't enough to get back to the edge (which it isn't if you got grabbed above 30 %) then you're dead.
Dededes bair > Ness fair
sad but true. It is faster and has more range. So you can only DJ-airdodge to avoid it and get back to the stage. If you have to use PKT he'll just be above you and Dedede is so fat that you'll hit him with the PKT head and you fall to your death.Other than that PKFire is good to space and "camp" but still... PKF isn't that good.
65:35 or 60:40 for Dedede.
If I remember correctly Snake actually can't force a ground break. Not only that, his down throw gives him a good chance of a free tilt against the whole cast anyway, as well as doing damage itself.
Snake is definitely a bad match but I wouldn't say it's because of grab release.
Snake is definitely a bad match but I wouldn't say it's because of grab release.
I'll keep that in mind. I have no problem with Snake because I know what he's going to do. Actually that's a lie. I would have no problem if his tilts weren't outrageous.
Even if Snake can't force a ground break, there is no way to force an air break, is there?
Good players should be able to avoid dthrow -> ftilt most of the time and should never be hit by dthrow -> utilt, unless if your character has a bad/short rolling animation or something. Sorry but it's ridiculous to compare a dthrow tech chase to a guaranteed grab release to 21%.
Gaussis
Smash Ace
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Masky, have you tried EIDI against Snake? I'm thinking it might work on avoiding utilt.
About the grab-release, Snake holds Ness above the ground, so he will always be air released. Since Snake doesn't pummel fast enough, all you have to do is break in between the pummels and you should be air released. I'm going to check right now.
About the grab-release, Snake holds Ness above the ground, so he will always be air released. Since Snake doesn't pummel fast enough, all you have to do is break in between the pummels and you should be air released. I'm going to check right now.
If Snake can't force a ground break then it isn't guaranteed to hit. On the other hand, if he can force a ground break then all of his pummels only replace one entry in the stale move queue, and it most likely won't be 21% since forward tilt is a common move for Snake to be hitting you with. Either way, it's not a "guaranteed grab release to 21%".
I think it's the former though (that Snake can't force a ground break).
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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So we have a verdict on D3? 6-4. **** it, I thought Ness had this...
Anyway Snake next.
Anyway Snake next.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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Me too. I thought it was 50-50...
_clinton
Smash Master
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How did you make that call anyway?
The match really feels like Ness has the + by 55-45/50-50
Proper use of moves in the right area allows him to avoid D3's grab...
The odds of Ness getting gimped IMO when he doesn't have to use PKT are low (at least for me)...and even then PKT isn't all that bad...still its not like D3 is ungimpable as well when it comes to Ness' tools...
All of D3's spam is screwed with...when it comes to all of them...hell PK Jump shows some good use as well...
Stuff like Ftilt again can be dealt with using the right moves...
D3 is still gay...but it isn't like Ness can't be gay as well ^_^
PKT2 as far as their mind **** kill moves go is a lot easier to hit with then what D3 has for his mind **** kill moves...
The match really feels like Ness has the + by 55-45/50-50
Proper use of moves in the right area allows him to avoid D3's grab...
The odds of Ness getting gimped IMO when he doesn't have to use PKT are low (at least for me)...and even then PKT isn't all that bad...still its not like D3 is ungimpable as well when it comes to Ness' tools...
All of D3's spam is screwed with...when it comes to all of them...hell PK Jump shows some good use as well...
Stuff like Ftilt again can be dealt with using the right moves...
D3 is still gay...but it isn't like Ness can't be gay as well ^_^
PKT2 as far as their mind **** kill moves go is a lot easier to hit with then what D3 has for his mind **** kill moves...
8AngeL8
Smash Lord
Snake vs Ness is, IMO 60/40 Snake's favor.
Snake's advantages:
1. Much better camper. At long range, he's winning.
2. Outranges Ness up close
3. Kills Ness at low percents
4. He can afford to jump out and gimp Ness' recovery because he can get back from anywhere with C4
5. Explosives can't be absorbed, so his stage control is in full effect.
Ness' advantages:
1. FAIR!! Snake has a hard time dealing with SH fair if you DI away after it. It's your best approach.
2. If you ever force Snake to Up-B, you get a free spike.
3. Bthrow has a lot of horizontal, setting you up for a spike.
4. Did I mention your Fair?
In this matchup, the Snake is going to try to keep the game campy by using all his explosives and mortarsliding away when Ness gets too close. Ness is going to attempt to close the gap and pressure with Fair. All of Ness' high priority aerials will work well up close, so abuse them. The Snake player needs to look for an opening between the aerials to sneak in an Ftilt or grab. Full hop Nair from Snake stops Ness' approaches pretty well, too. Once Ness starts to break Snake's defenses, he should mortardash away again to start 'Nade camping.
Snake will almost certainly be killing at lower percents, but Ness can easily gimp Snake if he has to recover, so they're both capable of low percent kills.
So, overall, I'd say Snake wins at long and medium range, Ness has a tiny advantage, maybe even goes even up close.
Snake's advantages:
1. Much better camper. At long range, he's winning.
2. Outranges Ness up close
3. Kills Ness at low percents
4. He can afford to jump out and gimp Ness' recovery because he can get back from anywhere with C4
5. Explosives can't be absorbed, so his stage control is in full effect.
Ness' advantages:
1. FAIR!! Snake has a hard time dealing with SH fair if you DI away after it. It's your best approach.
2. If you ever force Snake to Up-B, you get a free spike.
3. Bthrow has a lot of horizontal, setting you up for a spike.
4. Did I mention your Fair?
In this matchup, the Snake is going to try to keep the game campy by using all his explosives and mortarsliding away when Ness gets too close. Ness is going to attempt to close the gap and pressure with Fair. All of Ness' high priority aerials will work well up close, so abuse them. The Snake player needs to look for an opening between the aerials to sneak in an Ftilt or grab. Full hop Nair from Snake stops Ness' approaches pretty well, too. Once Ness starts to break Snake's defenses, he should mortardash away again to start 'Nade camping.
Snake will almost certainly be killing at lower percents, but Ness can easily gimp Snake if he has to recover, so they're both capable of low percent kills.
So, overall, I'd say Snake wins at long and medium range, Ness has a tiny advantage, maybe even goes even up close.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Everything Angel said but 65/35 Snake's Favor
Ness is floaty, utilt kills... early...
PK Thunder can be canceled with grenades/nikita (its funny to do, and I've done it quite a bit..)meaning if we force you to up-B we have about as much of a chance to gimp you as you do us.
Ness's Bthrow won't really kill until higher %'s because of Snake's heavyweight, and bthrow is one of Ness's more reliable kill tactics.
Depending on the stage, Snake can easily take control of the stage with explosives leaving a harder aerial approach (such as placing a Mine on a platform in front of him if he gets the chance)
Ness can't really control the stage :3
Ness is floaty, utilt kills... early...
PK Thunder can be canceled with grenades/nikita (its funny to do, and I've done it quite a bit..)meaning if we force you to up-B we have about as much of a chance to gimp you as you do us.
Ness's Bthrow won't really kill until higher %'s because of Snake's heavyweight, and bthrow is one of Ness's more reliable kill tactics.
Depending on the stage, Snake can easily take control of the stage with explosives leaving a harder aerial approach (such as placing a Mine on a platform in front of him if he gets the chance)
Ness can't really control the stage :3
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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Ness is mid weight.
Snake vs Ness is, IMO 60/40 Snake's favor.
Snake's advantages:
1. Much better camper. At long range, he's winning.
2. Outranges Ness up close
3. Kills Ness at low percents
4. He can afford to jump out and gimp Ness' recovery because he can get back from anywhere with C4
5. Explosives can't be absorbed, so his stage control is in full effect.
Ness' advantages:
1. FAIR!! Snake has a hard time dealing with SH fair if you DI away after it. It's your best approach.
2. If you ever force Snake to Up-B, you get a free spike.
3. Bthrow has a lot of horizontal, setting you up for a spike.
4. Did I mention your Fair?
In this matchup, the Snake is going to try to keep the game campy by using all his explosives and mortarsliding away when Ness gets too close. Ness is going to attempt to close the gap and pressure with Fair. All of Ness' high priority aerials will work well up close, so abuse them. The Snake player needs to look for an opening between the aerials to sneak in an Ftilt or grab. Full hop Nair from Snake stops Ness' approaches pretty well, too. Once Ness starts to break Snake's defenses, he should mortardash away again to start 'Nade camping.
Snake will almost certainly be killing at lower percents, but Ness can easily gimp Snake if he has to recover, so they're both capable of low percent kills.
I agree with most of this. Ness is However mid weight. (0.980 to be exact. Mario is middle of the middle weight at 1 exactly, so it's a 2% difference)
So, overall, I'd say Snake wins at long and medium range, Ness has a tiny advantage, maybe even goes even up close.
Grr, there's more to Ness with than the fair!
Explosions can't be absorbed Not an advantage. Since NO ONE can absorb them, I would remove that.
My input
He does outrange Ness, and he does outcamp him. Ness wins in the air (naturally)
Killing Snake is incredibly difficult though. PKF is longer than normal (Snake is heavy)
Snake doesn't Kill Ness at lower % since dying is determined by weight in Brawl.
(if this we're melee, Ness would be KOed earlier)
Ness does have a (risky) grab release on Snake. It works in this fashion.
Grab release> Dash Regrab> Throw. Unfortunately Snake can AAA combo. If Ness shields it though, he can regrab so it's a whole mindgame craze going there.
Snake wins on the ground, ground range e.c.t.
In terms of killing, Snake wins out because of sheer power. But Ness can get Snake. PK Flash is easily used because of Snakes predictable recovery. And you can aim PKT2 at Snake while recovering to kill him.
All an all, 6-4. Certainly not Ness worst matchup in the top tiers, but not his best either.
Snake can defend well against Ness's long range game and has the advantage at close range because of forward tilt. Ness wins in the air if both Ness and Snake are in the air, but if just Ness is in the air, it's not advantageous. Good Snakes rarely get gimped because they know how to DI and Ness doesn't have any moves that send at a low angle with good DI. Snake also has a grab release combo that works when Ness ground breaks, but Snake can't force a ground break, and since Snake already beats Ness at close range, you're probably more likely to be hit by a tilt directly than grabbed and then hit by one.
On the plus side you really shouldn't be gimped by Snake.
I would say either 65-35 Snake or 60-40.
On the plus side you really shouldn't be gimped by Snake.
I would say either 65-35 Snake or 60-40.
_clinton
Smash Master
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Ness can screw around with Snake's grenades using his magnet's wind...to the point where Snake is forced to cook them...Ness will still have to come in towards Snake at the end...but it's not like the other characters...
PK Fire on Snake can leave a mark somewhat...also PK Fire can be used on the nades (away from Ness ok) to a point as well...and it also deals with his Dsmash bomb (if Snake actually uses it)
Also it's not like Ness is going to die early all the time vs. Snake and Ness can't do anything...140% (my average ok...think of the simple fact that Bthrow is a horizontal KO move...it can be a lot lower sometimes...but 140% seems to be a safe bet IMO just in general) or so on Snake + Bthrow does pretty much cost his stock a lot...still...Snake only needs 100% or so to KO Ness with his Utilt and a grab can lead into that...so in general Snake has the kill + when it comes to %...
6-4 Snake IMO...it really shouldn't be more then this...
PK Fire on Snake can leave a mark somewhat...also PK Fire can be used on the nades (away from Ness ok) to a point as well...and it also deals with his Dsmash bomb (if Snake actually uses it)
Also it's not like Ness is going to die early all the time vs. Snake and Ness can't do anything...140% (my average ok...think of the simple fact that Bthrow is a horizontal KO move...it can be a lot lower sometimes...but 140% seems to be a safe bet IMO just in general) or so on Snake + Bthrow does pretty much cost his stock a lot...still...Snake only needs 100% or so to KO Ness with his Utilt and a grab can lead into that...so in general Snake has the kill + when it comes to %...
6-4 Snake IMO...it really shouldn't be more then this...
AdmantNESS
Smash Ace
Thunder's tail can also ignite any thrown nades if thunder is angled right and a nade hits it.
xoxokev
Smash Lord
Snake's air game is kinda bad... imo, his only useful/applicable aerials are his bair and uair... and occasionally his nair
Pfft, Snake's aerial game isn't very good but...
All of his aerials have a use!
Uair-High in screen vertical KO.
Dair-Damage
Fair-Meteor
Bair-Priority/Knockback
Nair-Damage/**** Wario
He's also really hard to gimp due to C4 recovery...
Snake's utilt can KO jiggs on FD at 82% (or 83).
All of his aerials have a use!
Uair-High in screen vertical KO.
Dair-Damage
Fair-Meteor
Bair-Priority/Knockback
Nair-Damage/**** Wario
He's also really hard to gimp due to C4 recovery...
Snake's utilt can KO jiggs on FD at 82% (or 83).
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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Jiggs is also the lightest character in the game.
Fortunately, Ness is mid weight so I can expect higher KO%. Where are the Snakes!
Fortunately, Ness is mid weight so I can expect higher KO%. Where are the Snakes!
_clinton
Smash Master
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Snake isn't hard at all to gimp due to C4 recovery...I mean worse case that could happen is Ness just taking the C4 in mid air and taking 17% and having a chance to die himself if he doesn't air dodge it if he has a high %...
Still like Colin said...Ness doesn't really have any KO moves that knock the target at a low angle...I mean his lowest one is Bair...but even that has issues...
Still like Colin said...Ness doesn't really have any KO moves that knock the target at a low angle...I mean his lowest one is Bair...but even that has issues...
xoxokev
Smash Lord
@Taeran: of course Snake's aerials have a use... but they aren't nearly used as much as, say, Snake's tilts. Snake's dair may be good for damage, but it seems very situational to use it (with its ending lag if you don't time it perfectly), why not use dash attack, jab combo, u/d/f -tilt... Snake's fair is a meteor, when sweet spotted, but I myself have rarely seen a Snake use fair to spike anyone... I'm not saying that it can't be done. I mean, a good Snake player will probably be able to do those moves. But if done incorrectly, they can be punished. Also, I agree with _clinton that the C4 recovery does not make Snake harder to gimp. In my opinion, it would just give us more chances to gimp Snake, or at the very least it gives us free damage on Snake, whether we hit him or not.
I'm saying all of these things in defense of Ness, but when it comes down to it, I think a good Snake vs. a good Ness will yield an advantage in Snake's favor...
I'm saying all of these things in defense of Ness, but when it comes down to it, I think a good Snake vs. a good Ness will yield an advantage in Snake's favor...
g2g4l
Smash Apprentice
I think snake can live(and win) on a mix of his dash canceled Usmash, of course his tilts, a VERY precise use of his B moves, and his standard attack. i mean his Airs are pretty powerful but i don't see many snakes rely on it heavily. I mean the hit box is most of his body and a little bit in front of him for his U and B air. I agree with xo on the Dair and Fair i see them use it as a scaring move but not often in the air ness should take the advantage but Snake shouldn't really be in the air. His SideB should be used to give chase and when we approch i mean he has enough options there. Up close he is so powerful but we should be up close either. So i think the match could go either way but it should be in Snake favor...............
My thoughts
40:60 or maybe even a 45:55
My thoughts
40:60 or maybe even a 45:55
AdmantNESS
Smash Ace
Someone make a topic on the Snake board, asking them to come here. There's not that much progress being made.
EDIT: My bad, a topic was made.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207831
It needs to be bumped every few days then until someone comes.
EDIT: My bad, a topic was made.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207831
It needs to be bumped every few days then until someone comes.
Getting Snake in the air and keeping him there, watching for the bair and b reversals to get back on the floor, thats the way to win this match up. On the ground we can be pretty screwed. I mean doesnt ftilt beat every aerial except fair? PK Fire is the perfect solution to mortar slide though. Also how fast can he ftilt or standard a out of a shield? If its not faster than a grab then we can still use the two short hopped aerials unless he ftilts to stop the first one (unless its fair.)
Id just say advantage Snake cause hes a top tier and I dont know THAT much about the match up.
Id just say advantage Snake cause hes a top tier and I dont know THAT much about the match up.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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uppity, obnoxious, annoying, good for nothing PLAYERS!
Who should would do next? Since the
g2g4l
Smash Apprentice
Hey lets relax obviously something is up but we are gonna have to look past this and slide Snake into limbo. so Next i would like to see falco
_clinton
Smash Master
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- Dec 5, 2006
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Neat...2 people who want to see Falco now...
Earthbound Zero
Smash Journeyman
I want to see Wolf or Falco. I have a feeling Falco will be next. :x
g2g4l
Smash Apprentice
So Nintendo if you don't mind kinda sounds like Falco has been decided.(the peach on the match up guide is done if someone doesn't mind looking over it making sure it is right). and i would like to start. Off what i know right now, i would say (him:us) 60:40 max. I mean we practically own him in the air he does have jumping blaster, Usmash, side smash, and chain grab but he doesn't have that much over us.
*Edited* i meant us losing
*Edited* i meant us losing
xoxokev
Smash Lord
From personal experience, I would say 45:55 or even 40:60 giving the advantage to Falco
Yeah, the chain grabbing with him is pretty useless against Ness. Of course I'm not sure what a pivot grab will do.
SK92 is unbelivable, i played him a while back irl when i sucked more and i got 3 stocked hard.
Nyjin is a pretty good falco too, but our matches have went back and forth recently. Hes a much betetr player than I am tho.
yeah all this is in real life experinces. Falco is pretty hard, but definantly beatable.