PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

_clinton · Dec 13, 2008

jehonaker said:
Bowser is a lot tougher to handle than you think, it seems. His defense is amazing to the point where Ness cannot go on the offensive at any point in this match. Out of shield Whirling Fortress isn't fun to deal with, and his grab-release on Ness can't be easily dismissed. His shield is accordingly massive, so good luck poking at it

I never really though Bowser was easy in the 1st place...I mean a 6-4 or even maybe a few points lower for Ness' favor still isn't easy IMO...
And again for the 3rd time...Ness can overall for the most part deal with the grab release stuff...but whatever...

jehonaker said:
When Bowser has enough time to throw his shield up, yes. You have two options with PK Thunder, assuming a competent Bowser:

1. Aim at Bowser and hit his shield, a zero-sum operation. Unless his shield is severely depleted, it will not do much of anything to old Gojira.

Ness' tail of his PK Thunder eats up shields pretty fast actually...if you use it like that...

jehonaker said:
2. Don't aim at Bowser, which will let him go to town with Ness. When you factor in
that Ness isn't very heavy to start with (tied for 20th in weight), one shot from Bowser will hurt badly and may even give him enough time for the forward smash.

To be fair...looking into a bit of detail about Ness' live rate...he is right around Mario...about .5% less...I just feel like giving some details on Ness' amount that he can take...that's all...

jehonaker said:
He has more margin for error...you do not.

Well yeah of course he can take more in general...but remember that errors can cost him a lot too...PKT2 if sweet spotted will take his *** at pretty low damage as well...

xoxokev · Dec 13, 2008

If Ness is lucky (or has super sexy mind games), he can kill Bowser at 38% from the middle of Final Destination with PKT2, according to Uffe's guide

PKNintendo · Dec 13, 2008

jehonaker said:
For what it's worth, you all need to ban Norfair. Bowser somehow gets magnitudes worse to handle in that fiery deathtrap.

Bowser is a lot tougher to handle than you think, it seems. His defense is amazing to the point where Ness cannot go on the offensive at any point in this match. Out of shield Whirling Fortress isn't fun to deal with, and his grab-release on Ness can't be easily dismissed. His shield is accordingly massive, so good luck poking at it.

You do have more range with your projectiles (PK Fire, PK Thunder, and even PK Flash if you're gutsy enough), no doubt about that, but Whirling Fortress will easily break most of the attacks Ness throws his way.

When Bowser has enough time to throw his shield up, yes. You have two options with PK Thunder, assuming a competent Bowser:

1. Aim at Bowser and hit his shield, a zero-sum operation. Unless his shield is severely depleted, it will not do much of anything to old Gojira.
2. Don't aim at Bowser, which will let him go to town with Ness. When you factor in that Ness isn't very heavy to start with (tied for 20th in weight), one shot from Bowser will hurt badly and may even give him enough time for the forward smash.

Try to grab a shielding Bowser, and the invincibility frames of Whirling Fortress will make you think otherwise.

I would say that the match-up is anywhere from 55-45 to 45-55, and I'm leaning towards the latter. I made it seem grim for Ness, but you do have a lot of options. Bowser is, of course, easy to beat on, but he'll live to obscene percentages even if you land your killing blows. He has more margin for error...you do not.

Grab releases are not ignored and are duly noted. Fortress OOS, I know it well. But I've learned to deal with it.

No offense but those to options for PKT we're terrible. No Ness just uses PKT, the loop the tail which shield pokes and has infinite priority. One smash from Bowser? That's a tad ridiculous considering that his smashes are quite slow. Shield grabbing Bowser is only possible from a whiffed aerial.

This matchup is definetely 6-4 for Ness and a minimum of 55-45. Ness pro's greatly out weigh Bowser's.

Bowser is, of course, easy to beat on, but he'll live to obscene percentages even if you land your killing blows. He has more margin for error...you do not.

Applicable to pretty much everyone not heavy.

Mr. Escalator · Dec 13, 2008

Phiddlesticks said:
Every time I get hit by PK Fire I just kill myself. I mean, PK Fire is just an instant death move anyways, right? Urgh if there was only some way to dodge or shield PK Fire...

I say 80-20 Ness advantage easily for reasons already stated.

I totally agree everytime I play brown bowser (the best bowser) and I get hit just ****ing ugh
try to avoid pk fire, I know its hard but just Dont Get Fired.

MrEh · Dec 13, 2008

xoxokev said:
If Ness is lucky (or has super sexy mind games), he can kill Bowser at 38% from the middle of Final Destination with PKT2, according to Uffe's guide

He survives much longer with good DI.

One smash from Bowser? That's a tad ridiculous considering that his smashes are quite slow.

It's more likely then landing a PKT2.

Shield grabbing Bowser is only possible from a whiffed aerial.

Aerials will be Fortressed OoS, not grabbed.

PKNintendo · Dec 13, 2008

MrEh said:
He survives much longer with good DI.

It's more likely then landing a PKT2.

Aerials will be Fortressed OoS, not grabbed.

No no. When Ness shields Boozer's aerials he'll grab him. Thats what I mean't.

And it's not that much more likely for Bowser to land his smashes over PKT2.

Gaussis · Dec 13, 2008

MrEh said:
It's more likely then landing a PKT2.

Grossly untrue. They are about the same, even if we count the tail decimating Bowser's shield (which also keeps Bowser locked in his shield) to PKT2.

MrEh said:
Aerials will be Fortressed OoS, not grabbed.

This will only work against anything not fair. Fair will keep Bowser in stun long enough to back away. Also about the ftilt beating fair, it only really happens if it starts before fair, as with anything else.

MrEh · Dec 13, 2008

PKNintendo said:
No no. When Ness shields Boozer's aerials he'll grab him.

Oh, I see. In that case, then yes. Shieldgrabbing Bowser is much harder then it appears though. Bowser might be throwing out Fairs one second, and pull out a Klaw the next. It's a game of prediction really.

And it's not that much more likely for Bowser to land his smashes over PKT2.

Both are unlikely to happen in matchup, so I usually never imagine situations where either of them work. Both Bowser and Ness have their own share of usable killing moves, and Bowser's smashes and Ness's PKT2 are kind of moot. Ness can use his awesome aerials to kill, while Bowser can use...well...everything that's not a smash.

Gaussis · Dec 13, 2008

I'm willing to play any Boozers that are willing to look into the matchup more.

PKNintendo · Dec 13, 2008

MrEh said:
Oh, I see. In that case, then yes. Shieldgrabbing Bowser is much harder then it appears though. Bowser might be throwing out Fairs one second, and pull out a Klaw the next. It's a game of prediction really.

Both are unlikely to happen in matchup, so I usually never imagine situations where either of them work. Both Bowser and Ness have their own share of usable killing moves, and Bowser's smashes and Ness's PKT2 are kind of moot. Ness can use his awesome aerials to kill, while Bowser can use...well...everything that's not a smash.

I could sig that. :laugh:

Ref · Dec 14, 2008

I'm going to point out the truth here but a good Ness vs. A good bowser is like a horrible match up for ness if you want to play normally.

If you play the match up like it should be played 50-50. This match up is so dumb. One person gets pk fires to bats almost all the time, second person makes that up with grab releases to quite a bit. EIDI can allow you to escape the down tilt but not the F tilt or bowser bomb...

DIing to escape the bowser bomb, depending on how you do it you could be DI'ing badly for a F tilt. Not sure how well in DI'ing in on Bowser's first hit of the bowser bomb works, out SDI works perfectly though... But now SDI out an F tilt, and bad things happen.

PKNintendo · Dec 14, 2008

Ref said:
I'm going to point out the truth here but a good Ness vs. A good bowser is like a horrible match up if you want to play normally.

If you play the match up like it should be played 50-50. This match up is so dumb. One person gets pk fires to bats almost all the time, second person makes that up with grab releases to quite a bit. EIDI can allow you to escape the down tilt but not the F tilt or bowser bomb...

DIing to escape the bowser bomb, depending on how you do it you could be DI'ing badly for a F tilt. Not sure how well in DI'ing in on Bowser's first hit of the bowser bomb works, out SDI works perfectly though... But now SDI out an F tilt, and bad things happen.

First of, getting grabbed is rare. Ness can avoid getting grabbed by Bowser, who's incredibly bad at grabbing. Grab releases' main thing is the bowser bomb, but that's applicable to Mario and Luigi too, and IIRC they have an advantage too. But what they lack is PKF to bat too. Jump Breaking Bowser's grab's are easy. Super grab breaking is laughable easy on Bowser, since he takes a year to jab, and timing it so Ness jumps (auto jump break!) is also easy.

Besides that I don't see ANYTHING that Bowser can do to Ness in any way shape or form.

PS: I mean't alot of things that Bowser has over Ness. I mean, he still has a solid defence game.

xoxokev · Dec 14, 2008

I'm pretty sure Bowser can DI out of PK Fire. Maybe I just did the PK Fire wrong (is that even possible?), but I tested it with a friend... and he escaped with DI

Earthbound Zero · Dec 14, 2008

Bowser can easily DI out of the first hit of PK Fire, but once he is caught in it, it's very hard for him to DI out of it.

Did he DI out of the first hit, or near the edge of flames, or did he DI out of the middle of the flame?

xoxokev · Dec 14, 2008

Oh, he probably DI'ed on the first hit, because he knew it was coming... obviously, when I said "Hey, try to get out of this" lol... maybe that's why

Earthbound Zero · Dec 14, 2008

Lol, that's good. xD If Bowser could DI out of PK Fire's flame there would go my whole strategy against him.

Phiddlesticks · Dec 14, 2008

I really hope every Ness I play against spams PK Fire. I mean, it would make the matchup so much easier for Bowser.

Seriously maybe the reason Ref thought Bowser had a 70-30 advantage on Ness was because he was spamming PK Fire

Also I wouldn't mind playing some Nesses on wifi but it would have to be Wednesday afternoon or later. I've got exams on Monday/Wednesday I need to study for.

Ref · Dec 14, 2008

Phiddlesticks said:
Seriously maybe the reason Ref thought Bowser had a 70-30 advantage on Ness was because he was spamming PK Fire

Yeah because we all know that is how Ness normally plays....

Ref said:
I'm going to point out the truth here but a good Ness vs. A good bowser is like a horrible match up for ness if you want to play normally.

Popertop · Dec 14, 2008

you can't DI out if you get caught in the middle of the flame, it's really hard.

Earthbound Zero · Dec 14, 2008

Phiddlesticks said:
I really hope every Ness I play against spams PK Fire. I mean, it would make the matchup so much easier for Bowser.

Seriously maybe the reason Ref thought Bowser had a 70-30 advantage on Ness was because he was spamming PK Fire.

Ness should never be spamming PK Fire.

Unlike Lucas, Ness' PK Fire has quite of bit of lag and is usually not a reliable approach. PK Fire should be used as a surprise attack against Bowser, and if it connects, can be chained will a PK Jump or 2, racking up a ton of damage. It should never be used too often, or it will become extremely predictable, easily avoidable, and easily punished.

Getting past Bowser's defenses is very difficult, so you have to look for an opening between laggy attacks to approach. You may use a PK Jump occasionally to while approaching to rack up a lot of damage. Bowser is a tank, find openings and attack accordingly. Try to get Bowser in the air to juggle him to high percents, if he attempts a Bowser Bomb, a well timed PK Thunder will stop him in midair (if he isn't right above you, you can tailwhip him while he's falling during bowser bomb), and you may continue to juggle. The key to this matchup is getting Bowser into the air, which is hard to do. Remember not to be too close in front of Bowser, since he can do his Side-B, which may result in a bowsercide.

Luigi player · Dec 15, 2008

I think this should be in Ness' advantage... I know Bowser has his upB OoS, is strong, has good range and also greab releases... but that's all he got.

Ness has his fair and nair. Those are really good. I think it would be easy to use fair all the time on a Bowser and just play defensive so he doesn't hit you out of it. And since Bowser's so big, it shouldn't be that hard for Ness to hit him.

I think it's 55-45 for Ness.

MrEh · Dec 15, 2008

A lot of people are saying that Ness can avoid the grab easily. Ness is not Wario or Jiggs, so it's unlikely that you'll go a match without being grabbed a couple of times. The problem with that is that Bowser ***** from a grab, and that affects the matchup.

I really do think the matchup is 55-45 in Ness's favor, or an even 50-50.

itsthebigfoot · Dec 15, 2008

mreh, i actually have more experience in ness vs bowser than any other bowser matchup. it's 6-4 ness, the little brat is too fast for his ko power. luckily grab = buttsecks and his best way to stay safe from grabs is retreating fairs, meaning he has to limit himself to avoid the ****.

gimps are limited just cause his fair beats yours, and bair is too slow.

tip for the bowsers though, when you're at 135+ he will go for grabs, because it's a death. his standing grab sucks, so he has to go for dash grabs. if you see him running at you, get ready to use the fsmash drawback to dodge + punish

MrEh · Dec 15, 2008

itsthebigfoot said:
mreh, i actually have more experience in ness vs bowser than any other bowser matchup. it's 6-4 ness, the little brat is too fast for his ko power. luckily grab = buttsecks and his best way to stay safe from grabs is retreating fairs, meaning he has to limit himself to avoid the ****.

Sounds reasonable. Sadly, there's not many Ness mains out here to play you know? One of my friends uses Ness as a secondary, so besides her, the only Ness practice I get are from rare friendlies at tournies.

I'm still waiting for the Wario and Luigi matchups. Those two are my favorite matchups, considering my own brothers main them.

tip for the bowsers though, when you're at 135+ he will go for grabs, because it's a death. his standing grab sucks, so he has to go for dash grabs. if you see him running at you, get ready to use the fsmash drawback to dodge + punish

I'm forever thankful for the Fsmash drawback and Ness's small arms. It's just too sexy.

Hixxy · Dec 15, 2008

I have landed a Gimpyfish combo (dodging a grab --specifically a dash grab-- with the draw back of Bowser's Fsmash and then landing the Fsmash) on a Ness in a sudden death before. Wi-Fi is funny.

Phiddlesticks · Dec 15, 2008

^Haha I actually did the exact same thing last night :x Was yours by chance on Battlefield as well?

I also have more experience against Ness than any other character and agree that 60-40 Ness is fair. The only thing is almost all of my experience is wifi experience

Hixxy · Dec 15, 2008

It was on Yoshi's Island.

PKNintendo · Dec 15, 2008

itsthebigfoot said:
mreh, i actually have more experience in ness vs bowser than any other bowser matchup. it's 6-4 ness, the little brat is too fast for his ko power. luckily grab = buttsecks and his best way to stay safe from grabs is retreating fairs, meaning he has to limit himself to avoid the ****.

gimps are limited just cause his fair beats yours, and bair is too slow.

tip for the bowsers though, when you're at 135+ he will go for grabs, because it's a death. his standing grab sucks, so he has to go for dash grabs. if you see him running at you, get ready to use the fsmash drawback to dodge + punish

The brat?!?

Yeah but Big foot is right. Anyone want to continue arguing? If not, we're moving on.

_clinton · Dec 16, 2008

itsthebigfoot said:
mreh, i actually have more experience in ness vs bowser than any other bowser matchup. it's 6-4 ness, the little brat is too fast for his ko power. luckily grab = buttsecks and his best way to stay safe from grabs is retreating fairs, meaning he has to limit himself to avoid the ****.

gimps are limited just cause his fair beats yours, and bair is too slow.

tip for the bowsers though, when you're at 135+ he will go for grabs, because it's a death. his standing grab sucks, so he has to go for dash grabs. if you see him running at you, get ready to use the fsmash drawback to dodge + punish

^_^

Ness is a little brat alright...have you seen what he has actually hit with that baseball bat?

Personally I don't think his standing grab is that bad, its just that his dashing grab is that good...but still...I mean who cares when you perfect shield something and so on what the grab is like?

PKNintendo · Dec 16, 2008

~~I want to do Llmacario next. Everyone's doing it!~~

We do Metaknight now.

Gaussis · Dec 16, 2008

You read my mind. Uh, no input for this one for me

. I'll just watch from the sidelines and cheer (and correct any misconceptions).

thesage · Dec 16, 2008

Dair beats his up b so if you can predict it you can actually edgeguard him. Too bad he has like a lot of other jumps.

If he goes out to edgeguard you and you still have your dj jump away and then go above him. Once you start your dj use dair. All of his aerials loose to it except for up air I believe so you can float + airdodge to the stage if he hits you with if. If not he just ate a dair and you can try to use pkt to recover.

Fair, pk fire, and dash attack beat the tornado. Bair clanks with glide attack.

Neon Ness · Dec 16, 2008

PKNintendo said:
We do Metaknight now.

Seriously? Seriously. Seriously?

Meta Knight vs. Ness? I call 110: -10, Ness' advantage. Prove me wrong.

thesage · Dec 16, 2008

Neon Ness said:
Seriously? Seriously. Seriously?

Meta Knight vs. Ness? I call 110: -10, Ness' advantage. Prove me wrong.

I recently three stocked (yes in a three stock match) a mk at a tournament. I did the above tatic and it worked for the last kill. I just spaced my fair better than he could his and used yoyo at random intervals.

goodkid · Dec 16, 2008

This match is 60-40, Ness has so much priority & things he can do to MK if played right. But since we don't have that many experienced Ness's most will say 30-70, which it is clearly not. Almost all of Ness's attacks can clink w/ MKs. Also half of MK's moves can be easily DId w/ 6 less damage.

Ref · Dec 16, 2008

goodkid said:
This match is 60-40, Ness has so much priority & things he can do to MK

I love you... It's 60-40 about thanks to Ness' range, priority and killing power...

N air also clanks a glide attack I believe.

Neon Ness · Dec 16, 2008

Would a charged up smash yoyo override a tornado?

Also, if Meta Knight recovers with the tornado, what would be the best edgeguarding option? Using forward air would out prioritize it, but then wouldn't the cool down lag from Ness' fair leave him open to an up B attack?
And aiming PK Fire at a recovering enemy, especially Meta Knight, is tough.

_clinton · Dec 16, 2008

Well the MK boards think it is 7-3 MK...but I don't agree with that...6-4 MK IMO...I've fought plenty of them...the common as hell little SOB

MK beats Ness on the ground of course...landing a grab for one thing sucks somewhat when it comes to the point of MK having at least 110% or so...

MK's grab is ***...at super high % the up throw will KO of course

At low % the down throw is *** as well...overall MK's grab is annoying...

While I feel Ness can hold his own vs. MK in the air...do note that MK's slowest air attack is like 5 frames or so for the start (Shuttle Loop of course...which I know doesn't fall into "air" attacks but I'm saying it is anyway), and all of his other air moves come out on like frame 3 or so...even Nair...which can kill of course

Just saying...MK is faster in everything...

Ref · Dec 16, 2008

Using F air beats the tornado so easily Neon... Who cares about ending lag on a move that hits and pushes them away.

Bobbery · Dec 16, 2008

It's good to see that Ness isn't totally ***** by MetaKnight :]

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