ZGD: Livin by a thread.

Alternatives to Luigi's Mansion

Alternatives to Luigi's Mansion

The reason I have titled the topic this is because it is well known that Zelda really likes Luigi's Mansion (and Battlefield). I feel, as I told Sonic the Hedgedawg, that I believe a lot of Zeldas are using this stage as a crutch and not considering other stages for counterpicks.

Now, because I believe we Zelda mains are a bright group, I have decided to prove myself wrong and find out what counterpick stages other people are using. I'll make a top 3/5/7/10 list, depending on the amount of stages that are brought up, and we'll discuss that.

Here are my counterpick stages:

Norfair - It stands to reason to be a strong CP for Zelda. The stage is roomy, but the ceiling and walls are very short at the top platforms. All the edges make Zelda faster, bring her aerial game into play, and gives her options to approach she never had before. You have similar protection hiding under platforms that you do on Battlefield, and she is fairly ungimpable on the stage due to the lava saving her should you miss the ledge.

Positives:
- Can hide under platforms
- New approaches
- Usmash reaches platforms
- Lava can make saves
- Many recovery options
- Walls/Ceiling have very little off screen room
- Allows Zelda to rely more on off-stage air game to chase opponents

Negatives:
- Bottom platform can screw up sweet spotting ledge as it is partially permeable

Brinstar - It is a modified Battlefield with lava and a base stage that can be gone through. The walls are even shorter than Battlefield and allow her to kill even earlier. The gooey pillars can extend hit boxes along with the spheres holding the stage together. There is a small wall in the sphere area that allows for Dtilt "infinite". It isn't a true infinite because Dtilt will destroy the spheres though, on occasion this has caused my opponent to be spiked when they fall through. I find it fairly easy to camp the left side of the stage, and the top platform is a SH Uair away from a very low kill. Since the walls are so short, and the lava is ever present, the fact that you can go through the platform does not inhibit Zelda's recovery as much as say Delfino.

Positives:
- Small stage/Small Ceiling/Short Walls
- 4 different planes
- Stage works against campers
- Zelda can use platforms to force approaches
- String connectors/Sphere connectors can be used to extend hitboxes and refresh moves
- Dtilt in spheres to possible spike
- Top platform is SH Uair away from kill
- Lava can make saves should FW not sweetspot ledge

Negatives:
- Non-solid platform could lead to poor recovery if lava drops and you are left below the stage (this does not happen often)

Halberd - Zelda would love Halberd if it wasn't for the platform that takes you to the ship. If you start as Sheik there, you could switch to Zelda once the platform gets there and have a plenty of killing power.

Positives:
- Small Ceiling

Negatives:
- MUST use Sheik while the platform travels

Frigate - Frigate does not seem to gimp Zelda. Her recovery lends herself to not needing a ledge, and we get ledge-hogged anyway. Small walls and ceiling along with a moving platform that she can hold down fairly well. Plus, Dsmash rules anyone with a tether recovery.

Positives:
- Small ceiling/short walls
- DSmash on right side for easy gimps on tether recoveries
- Zelda's recovery off right side has 2 options with platform for less predictable recovery
- When stage flips, it becomes a neutral stage with smaller boundaries

Negatives:
- Recovery is punishable on right side of starting stage
- Dins/FW while stage switches and Zelda can fall to her doom


Jungle Japes - Japes is a stage I'm torn on as it has some fairly good advantages (ledgewarping, big protection platform, Dins auto-collides with the outside platforms, her spike), but it takes away from her ability to kill vertically which she does so well. A match-up like Dedede would be great here since he is awful at getting out of the water, his recovery is very spikeable, and he kills vertically as well. Also, he doesn't have a move that kicks Zelda downward, so he can't knock her into the water. This is also one of Dedede's worst stages.

Positives:
- Side walls are good for Dsmash
- Dair loves the water
- Zelda can FW to 4 different ledges from the center platform
- Zelda has a few options when FW'ing out of the water as she can usually reach center edge or side edge

Negatives:
- Hurts her vertical kill game

I have more reasons behind these, but this is the conversation starter! Discuss!

I think frigate is shaping up to be a great stage for me. The flip is telegraphed by that siren, so I know never to dins. I always make my way into the middle at that point.

DSmash near the ungrabbable ledge is brillant on those with crap recoveries whereas at the very least she'll be able to make the ground if she's ever knocked off around that part of the stage due to her massive teleport range.

People can't effectively camp that well on this stage due to it's obscure layout. Also, when it flips, the dip in the arena can be used to duck from projectiles, or the platform is useful at jumping over them. Also, standing underneath that platform on the dip makes it much easier to aim uair if they're above you.

Plus, the music is sooo good! Really hypes me up.

Ledge camping is still a problem when the stage is flipped, but in general, it discourages camping. I like the smaller areas, and I am working on this stage myself.

The platform on the left side is not in Usmash range, but you can camp under if someone is above you. No one will drop through for fear of Usmash or you can SH Uair or jump fair/bair. The moving platform causes a ton of problems for my opponents because I can sit on it when it is high and force a double jump approach unless they just want to be showered by Dins. Usually, you want to get behind them when the platform is up to Dsmash them off. Dtilt --> Dsmash is key.

It's a really good list you have here. My only question to that is why MUST you play shiek first on halberd?

I find that stage to be really helpful at most times. I like that stage, Frigate, and BF to be my top CP's. Though I should try Japes for a bit to get the hang of it cause I lost to Sethlon bad at that stage.

Grey! The only way I can send you that sonic/zelda replay is if you add my actual wii code =( Is that alright? I think it's under my username or whatever. I'll need yours as well!

Also... I love the layout of japes, but everything else I HATE. Those crabs have caught me enough times >.> And I find it difficult getting out of the water due to her bad mobility in general. I don't think it's a bad stage, I just don't think it's THE stage like LM and battlefield are.

What do people think of pokemon stadium the melee version? I think it's brilliant. The layouts help zelda a lot. The sides are fine, the ceiling isn't high. The windmill is great for USmash locks and pressuring with dins. The rocky stage has dips that zelda can safely lock herself inside with usmash and pressure safely with dins. I love this stage!

GreyFox86 said:

It's a really good list you have here. My only question to that is why MUST you play shiek first on halberd?

I find that stage to be really helpful at most times. I like that stage, Frigate, and BF to be my top CP's. Though I should try Japes for a bit to get the hang of it cause I lost to Sethlon bad at that stage.

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The reason I say you must use Sheik for when the platform is traveling is because Zelda's recovery is pure garbage. If the smallest bit of her toe is even with the stage when you recover, she falls through the stage. I have no success on that part of it, but when it gets to the ship, Zelda seems to reign supreme.

If you have some ideas on how to handle the platform part, then please send them over because I would like to use this stage.

Kataefi said:

Also... I love the layout of japes, but everything else I HATE. Those crabs have caught me enough times >.> And I find it difficult getting out of the water due to her bad mobility in general. I don't think it's a bad stage, I just don't think it's THE stage like LM and battlefield are.

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Remember to not panic in the water. There is a specific time you have to wait to jump out of the water, so don't button mash the jump button. If you jump, you have a 2nd jump and then FW. It is not difficult as long as you stay calm. If you are facing characters that have good downward hits, this is not your stage.

Kataefi said:

What do people think of pokemon stadium the melee version? I think it's brilliant. The layouts help zelda a lot. The sides are fine, the ceiling isn't high. The windmill is great for USmash locks and pressuring with dins. The rocky stage has dips that zelda can safely lock herself inside with usmash and pressure safely with dins. I love this stage!

Click to expand...

I have the worst luck on this stage. I start to like it, and the edge gets me. The edge of the stage is very misleading as to where the solid edge is. I have FW'ed horizontally to the edge, and it completely missed the edge when it appeared I was right there. It's just me, I know it has to be just me, but that is the only reason I don't favor it.

The bridge around the windmill can dtilt infinite people. They get caught on the slope and they can't DI away from it. The slope brings them back down into the move, and they are stuck in it forever until they pop up or the stage changes. There are a few more times this can be done due to a slope on this stage. It is great.

Good list Red_Bandit, but I think you should add BF to it. It really helps Zelda IMO. The stage also gives out situations where it´s good for Zelda´s opponent, but even better to her, making it an interesting CP.

Kataefi said:

Also... I love the layout of japes, but everything else I HATE. Those crabs have caught me enough times >.> And I find it difficult getting out of the water due to her bad mobility in general. I don't think it's a bad stage, I just don't think it's THE stage like LM and battlefield are.

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I too really hate those... grabs?!? . Every time I get even close to water one comes and steals one of my stocks. I also don´t like the stage because it´s horrible against campers. Zelda has too much problems trying to approach someone camping on the side platforms.

Kataefi said:

What do people think of pokemon stadium the melee version? I think it's brilliant. The layouts help zelda a lot. The sides are fine, the ceiling isn't high. The windmill is great for USmash locks and pressuring with dins. The rocky stage has dips that zelda can safely lock herself inside with usmash and pressure safely with dins. I love this stage!

Click to expand...

I think it´s douple-edged sword. As Bandit already said, the edges can lead to stupid deaths and failed recoveries on Zelda´s part. She also gets into a lot of problems if she´s the one left above her opponent when the stage tranforms. Last but not least comes that freaking windmill: every time I land a LK or some other killer they hit the windmill and survive. It can also save Zelda of course, but I still think it hurts her more than helps.

Good thing is that she has many walls to begin D-tilt lock against and can camp the left side of ground form of the stage (next to the mountain) if she wants to calm down the game. The weird edges can also give her some easy kills with D-smash by messing up enemies´ recoveries like they do hers.

Kataefi said:

Grey! The only way I can send you that sonic/zelda replay is if you add my actual wii code =( Is that alright? I think it's under my username or whatever. I'll need yours as well!

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Yeah that's fine. Just PM me your BFC and I'll do the same.

@ Half-Split Soul

The only reason I don't put Battlefield is because we all know that is #2 while Luigi's is #1 at this point in the metagame (and popular opinion of Zelda community). I am trying to find other stages Zeldas can use that they might not have given a fair shot.

PK Stadium is just odd; so much good, so much bad. I need to play on it more to figure out better recoveries or strategies to make it more viable. It SEEMS like it should work in our favor, but those edges... *full body shiver*... they always get me once a match.

Kataefi said:

Grey! The only way I can send you that sonic/zelda replay is if you add my actual wii code =( Is that alright? I think it's under my username or whatever. I'll need yours as well!

Also... I love the layout of japes, but everything else I HATE. Those crabs have caught me enough times >.> And I find it difficult getting out of the water due to her bad mobility in general. I don't think it's a bad stage, I just don't think it's THE stage like LM and battlefield are.

What do people think of pokemon stadium the melee version? I think it's brilliant. The layouts help zelda a lot. The sides are fine, the ceiling isn't high. The windmill is great for USmash locks and pressuring with dins. The rocky stage has dips that zelda can safely lock herself inside with usmash and pressure safely with dins. I love this stage!

Click to expand...

Did you photoshop that santa hat on your zelda yourself? =o

Zelda in Pokemon Stadium 2 is nice too D:
Sliding F-smashes on Ice
D-tilt lock on Ground
Easy aerials on Air
and Din's harass on electric :3

Oh Snap said:

Did you photoshop that santa hat on your zelda yourself? =o

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Meno did it from the peach boards. Everyone's getting them now!

Oooo I wanna get one too ^_^

edit: nvm I know photoshop too and I made one myself, although it looks weird cuz the hair is still flying around lol.

Hahaha! Very festive!
Who is that is your avi?

lmao yeah! it's a trend!

she's BoA =)

Just listened to her stuff! Really cool!

PK Stadium 2... the only reason I didn't like it was the fans, but I am falling more and more in love with her air game. I will have to play this more. Oh, and the treadmills. God, I hate the treadmills.

Also... nice hats! My sig already has a cool hat though.

Check this out! Zelda being rep'd by a newly revealed Zelda. Good ****!
(You'll see who I mean... just look at #1)

Snakeeeeeeeeeeeee is SO good.

Also, I pondered and realised that there are some characters that can be Fair'd OoS! I always thought Bair was most reliable, but both are against tall characters.

Tested it and it works from Peach and anyone else higher. Misses characters of diddy's height tho. I've set my L button to jump now so I can do these quickly.

Yeah, I went into training mode awhile back and tried rising Fairs standing next to characters to get an idea on who I could pull that on. I don't know exactly who, but I got a general idea like you. I'm sure we could create a list for rising bairs and fairs.

Oh Snap said:

lmao yeah! it's a trend!

she's BoA =)

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Lol I think Gray Fox with a Santa Cap would be funny. I should do one too.

Oh, and BoA is not only my favorite female asian singer but she is by far the hottest female asian singer. Mad props to Oh Snap for the avvy.

I have willingly decided to do the full shebang and give Zelda a christmas outfit ^^
Looks.... festive? Or scary?

Wow... that is awesome!

I'm not a fan of stadium 2. Zelda has a lot of trouble on the electric and air stages compared to most other charcters.

as for stages I recomend for her: other than battlefield and mansion. I'd say most are matchup dependent.

I've always liked smashville though.

Well, this discussion is not really about match-ups. It is about how Zelda performs on stages other than your crutches.

Smashville is alright. The moving platform is fun to camp and cause problems with. The ceiling and walls are not really beneficial nor are they detrimental.

Got 5th in a tournament yesterday. I remembered seeing a thread that talked about Zelda's lack of tournament placings so I decided I would post how I did. I don't know if this is thread and I am to lazy to look for it so it is going here.

^_^

Was it advertised anywhere here? If so submit your results in akoku's thread! And nicely done!

Red_Bandit said:

Well, this discussion is not really about match-ups. It is about how Zelda performs on stages other than your crutches.

Smashville is alright. The moving platform is fun to camp and cause problems with. The ceiling and walls are not really beneficial nor are they detrimental.

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that's why I like it. only snake and ike have special advantages there really

Kataefi said:

Was it advertised anywhere here? If so submit your results in akoku's thread! And nicely done!

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Yah it was called. LOBSTER 3. and it was in Maine.

it was run by Dazwa, and Darc I believe.

If no one submits it I will... Usually the people who run it submit the results? (Doesn't know)

Cool! Make sure they are submitted so she can get the points she deserves!

Tell us about it though! Who did you face that caused you any problems?

I was just submitting it actually. I think Ankoku already had it, since he posted in the thread but there was a slight inaccuracy as I was listed as just Diddy and after Doubles I was definatly using DK just as much. Which reminds me. Did you use Sheik much at all or just the one time I saw you transform?

Dazwa had you down as both.

IMO you should be confortable on any stage unless you have a very strong secondary. But I suppose this is about strong alternatives for zelda. I always pick smashville, frigate, or PKS1. As a zelda main you should be comfortable enough with farore's to not get stuck under the ledge in PKS1, but I understand that sometimes it just happens. I like PKS1 because you can either stall campers until a switch, or use the platforms and air dodges to work your way closer to them in it's default form. Smashville... well I just like the stage. Frigate is small with relatively close walls. The flip side of the stage (the one with the dip) let's you harass people with short hopped n-airs and the dip in general makes her aerials easier to land. One last thing, final destination is gay. really gay. I hate it. Oh yeah, halberd is ok but not my personal favorite.

@Riot

I am going to be putting up a Tourney Placings section here. Instead of a notable player profile section, I am going to devote that to recording the tournament Zelda's progresses. It probably won't get up until the holiday because I want to try and get some results from the past month or so to start it up.

@Takumaru

I agree with your first sentence completely. My friend and I put every legal stage on and just play random stages while we are playing one another just for that reason. I get plenty of experience on all stages, and it has paid off because I discovered Zelda's abuse of Brinstar and how well she can move around on Norfair.

In fact, tonight I was facing a Snake on Japes and was not doing well being down a stock already. Typically, this is not a Snake stage, but he was doing a lot of grenade tricks and really trying to camp the middle. I got my kill and when he came back, I took to ledge camping between the two ledges on the right side. Just keep hopping back and forth and forcing him to come closer than he wants since I am invincible most of the time. I would mix in some of my own approaches, but it ended up me winning decisively. Normally, ledge camping can't be done by Zelda because she can't short hop any aerial except Dair and land on the ledge. Japes allows you to throw aerials, fall in the water, and ride to the other side fairly unharmed with 2 or 3 ledges to FW to when you jump out.

I don't know if anyone knew this or not (I, nor my friend did not) but if you press Up even with tap jump off when you are in the water, you will jump. I had been having problems double jumping immediately when trying to get out of the water and couldn't figure out why since I knew I had only pressed jump once. It turned out that I was tap jumping out of the water and didn't realize it. I've been playing this game since it came out (along with my friend) and we never realized that. The wonderful things you learn at a smashfest.

Why is traveling halberd a bad stage for Zelda?

Is it the floor?

And Japes and Frigate are good for Zelda?!

****. all the times I could have picked those when me and Riot did teams. Crap. You guys should start up a Stage Discussion thread and go through all the stages and figure out everything that helps and hurts her.

MdrnDayMercutio said:

Why is traveling halberd a bad stage for Zelda?

Is it the floor?

And Japes and Frigate are good for Zelda?!

****. all the times I could have picked those when me and Riot did teams. Crap. You guys should start up a Stage Discussion thread and go through all the stages and figure out everything that helps and hurts her.

Click to expand...

yeah it's the floor.

And JApes and Frigate aren't really good for zelda... but there are some charcters who have a LOT harder time on them, so zelda has a nice upper hand there

onionchowder said:

http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=3476

Brawl Orgy 2 (AKA trash Guan's while his parents are out)
November 10th 2008
$3 Entry, 18 Entrants ($54 pot)

Results:
1: Eric "G-unit" (pimp-status) Guan ($32.40) (onionchowder)
Ness/Diddy

2: Frederick N ($16.20)
Zelda/Olimar

3: Dean ($5.40) (Ilucamy)
Lucario

4: Young
Lucario

5: Leon (ycz6)
Snake/Marth

5: Kevin L
Pokemon Trainer

7: Chris D
Marth

7: Oliver F (supachai)
G+W

Click to expand...

Good stuff to whoever came second with Zelda (with olimar as a secondary).

^
I used Sheik... like... in two rounds and that was it, just for some damage and then right back to Zelda.

Red_Bandit said:

@Riot

I am going to be putting up a Tourney Placings section here. Instead of a notable player profile section, I am going to devote that to recording the tournament Zelda's progresses. It probably won't get up until the holiday because I want to try and get some results from the past month or so to start it up.

Click to expand...

I like that idea, I saved most of the results from tournaments I went to in order to see if I was making any progress. So it would be fun to see where everyone is falling in tournaments.

Woah.... just noticed some more recent tourneys in akoku's thread and Zelda's been placing nicely in top 5 in quite a few of them. Good stuff to whoever's picking her up!

Zelda isn't bad. I don't know why people look down on her still.

Ohwell they will all learn the great ways of Zelda.

EDIT: Halbert I've never had a problem with the floor cause I don't go through it. I always reach for the ledges. And if that's the only reason why Zelda isn't good at that stage then it's kinda weak. =/

Zelda from that leverage of the stages during the flight part, is high enough to Fair or Bair any character. The platform is low enough to Usmash out of. Also this stage kinda gives her an advantage, her Dtilt gives her quite the priority on most uB's so if they come from the floor just Dtilt till you want to throw in a Dsmash.

I honestly find no problem in that stage. Now if you wanna talk about a stage that's bad for her its Yoshi's Island.

Japes - ledge camp goodness, water spikes, dsmash kills. Uair isn't hampered that much either. It just takes away from her Utilt and Usmash kills, but if you are facing someone who doesn't hit down with their hits, this becomes a great stage.

I agree completely with Yoshi's. Everytime I play there things just happen (kinda like PS1) where things shouldn't be happening. Like, if you stand on the right side of the stage by the ledge and fire a dins, you get "airborne" even though you are standing firmly on the hill, and fall to your death. Plus, those pop up platforms are never there when you want them.

@Riot

I'll post up as many as you want if you have the links to the threads. I'm only going back to the beginning of November when I look through the threads, and I am only looking for the people who I know have been in tourneys. I will put up my (not so good) placings along with yours, greyfox, DM, sniperworm, and anyone else who dropped a placing in this thread (if I forgot anyone, just let me know, and I will make sure to put you in). I'm not saying we are THE Zeldas, but I am saying we are the active Zeldas.