PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

ColinJF · Dec 16, 2008

Meta Knight's down throw isn't good, Clinton. Much like Ness's down throw, it doesn't give him any positional advantage. I don't use it when I play Meta Knight. Just DI away from meta knight and tech on the ground... it doesn't lead into anything. I think forward and up throw are both better for follow up with meta knight, or he can not throw, and if you ground break, he can use stuff like down smash and forward tilt. This can be annoying, but it's not THAT annoying since meta knight has a pretty easy time landing down smashes anyway, and if he wastes them out of grab break he might weaken it for when it needs it to kill later.

Anyway, I agree with 60-40 Meta Knight.

thesage · Dec 16, 2008

Yo yo definitely does not beat out tornado, ever. Trust me I know.

_clinton · Dec 16, 2008

ColinJF said:
Meta Knight's down throw isn't good, Clinton. Much like Ness's down throw, it doesn't give him any positional advantage. I don't use it when I play Meta Knight. Just DI away from meta knight and tech on the ground... it doesn't lead into anything. I think forward and up throw are both better for follow up with meta knight, or he can not throw, and if you ground break, he can use stuff like down smash and forward tilt. This can be annoying, but it's not THAT annoying since meta knight has a pretty easy time landing down smashes anyway, and if he wastes them out of grab break he might weaken it for when it needs it to kill later.

Anyway, I agree with 60-40 Meta Knight.

Oh yeah...I forgot to talk about MK's ground breaks on Ness ^_^

Deoxys · Dec 17, 2008

The MK matchup thread is ********/abandoned. Nonetheless, I'd say it's somewhere around 70/30. Remember, counterpicking is extremely important, and MK's counterpicks are leagues better than Ness's, especially if MK bans Pirate Ship.

If neutrals are:

BF
SV
FD
YI
LC

What do you strike?

What if PS1 is in place of LC?

Deciding this will help us decide the matchup %. As a MK main, I'd probably eliminate FD and PS1 or FD and I'm not sure what else if it's LC over PS1.

PKNintendo · Dec 17, 2008

Thank you Deoxys. I mean, at least you posted, unlike some MK mains.

Ref · Dec 17, 2008

I take Meta to FD all the time. It's around 60-40, the key is to take advantage of Meta knights low aerial mobility and D air chain him(D air to rising u air if it hits good if not he air dodged, D air again jab lock or rising U air depending on if he got spiked or bounces back up)... Other than that just out range him with an F air and Pk fire his forward smash do not try to grab it, it barely lags.

Out range and D air a bit more that usually. The key is really good spacing, a PKT2 can shield stab a meta knight well for what ever reasons... Shouldn't rely on this but if it happens good stuff.

We need more meta knights to post...

Learn to Di the down air properly when it comes. Save your double jump as well, you can actually spike MK easily for what ever reason..

goodkid · Dec 17, 2008

Ref said:
Learn to Di the down air properly when it comes. Save your double jump as well, you can actually spike MK easily for what ever reason..

How should I DI the dair? Fair & Bair are easy, but what about dair/uair?

Ref · Dec 18, 2008

Ness should DI the down air up, you can also smash DI for super effective Ness surprise. ... The U air to the right or left.

If you are talking about Meta knight: Meta knight should probably Di the U air to the right, the D air DI doesn't really help... unless spiked in which case you want to DI Right or left depending on how close the stage is hopefully to get a tech off the walls of the stage or land on it if not close enough just focus on meteor canceling.

PKNintendo · Dec 18, 2008

Kinda useless, but if you grab release MK of the edge you can aerial him. (fair, and nair)

The_NZA · Dec 18, 2008

fair seems to outprioritize most of metaknights aerials which is good...fair can also stop the tornado. Rising dairs are good...

Honestly, I just spam fairs and rising dairs, combo a bit, pkthunder like hell when hes in the air and seize any uair or bthrow kills I can.

Rising pkfire sometimes work but mk will usually not stand around to let you do that to him.

CP against mk?

I'd probably say Castleseige or Green hill zone, but thats because I like how you can set the middle of green hillzone and the statues on castle seige on fire with pkfire, allowing you to control a piece of the stage.

Rockin · Dec 19, 2008

Okay, I can try to put some imput on this, since I play Meta Knight

in terms of matchup, I think it's 60-40 or 70-30 in MK's favor (I think the first one is more accurate...). Ness has some moves like his fair that can out range Meta's moves. You pretty much have to predict how the MK is gonna attack.

I heard someone mention a Dair with Ness against MK's Up B. IMO, this is hard to land isn't reccomanded. Ness' Dair has some start up time, and MK's Up B is faster.

If the MK's recovering, I would reccommand the Up B of the PK thunder. If it hits, it'll distrupt his recovery (I'm talking about glide) a it to a better position. If he's tornadoing or Up B, best to just leave him be till he hits the ground and positon yourself well.

Oh, I hate Ness' self Up B. I kept getting hit by it from this guy. What was his name? Def?

_clinton · Dec 19, 2008

The joy about Ness vs. MK is the simple fact that Ness can do what most of the rest of the cast can't...screw with MK's recovery to a point...or at least add damage to him pretty well...

Plus Ness' recovery is overall kind of hard to mess with until he has to use PK Thunder as well...to bad the range on his 2nd jump isn't a bit better though...

Again though the main issue with MK is the fact that his ground game does beat Ness' hands down...which is the real reason why Ness is at a disadvantage IMO...still overall Ness has worse matches then MK...it makes me want to go and say 55-45 MK almost ^_^

Still thinking overall that it is 60-40 though

FireKirby7 · Dec 19, 2008

Rockin said:
Oh, I hate Ness' self Up B. I kept getting hit by it from this guy. What was his name? Def?

Ref? Right?

He just posted here a sec ago......

Rockin · Dec 19, 2008

_clinton said:
Again though the main issue with MK is the fact that his ground game does beat Ness' hands down...which is the real reason why Ness is at a disadvantage IMO...still overall Ness has worse matches then MK...it makes me want to go and say 55-45 MK almost ^_^

Meta Knight can do fairley well on the air as well. He just can't be careless. For example, if he sees a fair, he'll just nair/fair/up B out of shield. Out of all airs, Ness' fair is the only one that can outrange meta Knight. MK still has plenty of ways to own MK in the air IMO.

Earthbound Zero · Dec 19, 2008

You can't shield in the air... We're talking about in the air, not the ground.

Rockin · Dec 19, 2008

Yeah, I know. I just used a bad example lol

a Fair can out range MK, but his other moves will have trouble with other said moves.

I like the Down throw as MK against him (well, I like them against anyone actually). If they DI away, I can chase them down with a drill or tornado.

PKNintendo · Dec 19, 2008

Your avatar is from that girl from that Kirby show. Kirby right back at ya!

Rockin · Dec 19, 2008

Yes, it is. apparantly, she seemed to enjoy the thing that Meta Knight seems good at...lol

so uh...anything else I can try and throw out/answer questions/debate over?

Earthbound Zero · Dec 19, 2008

I also agree with 60:40 Meta, Ness outranges Meta in the air, and Ness' Fair is pretty fast to boot, as long as you don't do it too close to Meta, since Nair is too fast. Like already mentioned, Ness is one of the few characters who can mess with Meta's recovery, and pretty badly too. PKT either will deal quite a bit of damage, the tail, and can lead to stage spikes. Meta's ground game is horrid for Ness, since he's too fast and has too much range on the ground.

Also Rockin, for some reason, your sig makes me want to play Smash 64. I don't know why. xD

PKNintendo · Dec 19, 2008

Earthbound Zero said:
I also agree with 60:40 Meta, Ness outranges Meta in the air, and Ness' Fair is pretty fast to boot, as long as you don't do it too close to Meta, since Nair is too fast. Like already mentioned, Ness is one of the few characters who can mess with Meta's recovery, and pretty badly too. PKT either will deal quite a bit of damage, the tail, and can lead to stage spikes. Meta's ground game is horrid for Ness, since he's too fast and has too much range on the ground.

Also Rockin, for some reason, your sig makes me want to play Smash 64. I don't know why. xD

It makes me want to watch Kirby right back at ya. But Tiff had such a terrible VA. We done here? Eh?

thesage · Dec 19, 2008

Rockin said:
I heard someone mention a Dair with Ness against MK's Up B. IMO, this is hard to land isn't reccomanded. Ness' Dair has some start up time, and MK's Up B is faster.

I know that, I'm just throwing it out there. If your good enough at predicting you can sorta use it.

I can't really give numbers since all the mks I've played are either skyscrapers above me in skill or the opposite, and the results were never skewed by the characters we were playing as.

_clinton · Dec 19, 2008

Rockin said:
Yeah, I know. I just used a bad example lol

a Fair can out range MK, but his other moves will have trouble with other said moves.

I like the Down throw as MK against him (well, I like them against anyone actually). If they DI away, I can chase them down with a drill or tornado.

The thing is...the only air Ness needs from far away is his Fair, up close Nair is working pretty well at trading hits, and btw the range on Ness' Dair, and Bair sort of lie IMO...for example on BF's lower platforms to hitting ground level Ness can hit characters as small as the Ice Climbers from going on it...Bair's full range is actually close to the range of his Fair (at least for the start of the sour spot anyway)

I've got pics btw ^_^

The only air with real issues on range is Ness' Uair...btw any attempt at MK running from Ness to try and out space him after "certain moves" is still bad because of moves like PK Thunder...

Rockin · Dec 19, 2008

PKNintendo said:
It makes me want to watch Kirby right back at ya. But Tiff had such a terrible VA. We done here? Eh?

I actually thought the english VA for Tiff matched the personallity/purpous, but I lived the Japanese one as well lol

There's still a lot to consider against MK. Like, what stages to take him at, what to do in certain situation, what's the best way to approch MK. etc.

EDIT: The thing with using PK Thunder in general is that the opponent can bait the chase. You know, make it seem like they're being chased only to soon be able to nail you while you're wide open.

_clinton · Dec 19, 2008

Rockin said:
EDIT: The thing with using PK Thunder in general is that the opponent can bait the chase. You know, make it seem like they're being chased only to soon be able to nail you while you're wide open.

Mind game the mind gamer you mean...which is why I don't throw out PK Thunder from very far away...it is easier to dodge and so on...

Ref · Dec 20, 2008

I hit Rockin with PKT2 all the time that is why he doesn't like it....

Anyway yeah... The reason he said Def is because my name got messed up in a bracket and they put Def not Ref. So I didn't exist.

I do pkt2 because it hits Rockin...

Also Rockin your play style confuses me but I get adjusted to it....

The_NZA · Dec 20, 2008

against mk I go for the damage, not the kill. If he is off the stage, I dont even risk dair. He has too many tricks to recover. I'm better off trying to pkthunder him a crap load. But when I'm recovering, like someone said, its really easy and sneaking to DJ and buffer a dair at the start of the double jump. IT can sometimes be a free kill.

Ref · Dec 22, 2008

So I guess this is done and the match up is 60-40 meta knight advantage.

Anyway... Now what is next?

_clinton · Dec 22, 2008

I should add on the fact that MK's sword sucks compared to the other "holy" swords in this game...in that it won't bat away projectiles like oh say Marth's sword will...it can make it somewhat easier to trap him in PK fire (to bad he is small though) to bad the special attacks change that issue...to a point

Gaussis · Dec 22, 2008

Can we do Wario next? I haven't seen anyone really look into that matchup well.

illinialex24 · Dec 23, 2008

Hey guys, so this is the Jigglypuff discussion. I have talked to a fair amount of Ness's (I made a thread on these boards) and we came up that it is a 60-40 advantage Ness. This is because he outranges her if he spaces correctly with his fair. However, they both have good grabs but the advantage has to go to Ness. However, for overall aerial mobility and the ability to gimp an opponent, this definitely definitely goes to Jigglypuff (you would not believe how many Ness's I have gimped because they try to dair spike me, I grab the ledge, and push off bair them and then its puffstuff). Your main choice is to try to go to the middle of the stage all the time, and stay there. Jigglypuff aerial game is extremely mobile however and so you have to be very careful. As far as her bair, it *****. So does pound. Rest is almost a non factor here but you should watch out for her counterpick stage, it screws with your recovery. Badly. Frigate Orpheon. She will get you off the right side and then you have no ledge and she will wait for your B-Up. Unless you aim it perfectly so you can land almost immediately, she's got an almost free kill on you. She will then bair you time and then fair kill you and if you air-dodge, she'll fast fall and get hit by your PK Thunder so you are dead anyway.

Pretty thorough?

ColinJF · Dec 23, 2008

I agree with 60-40 Ness wins but I don't agree with everything illinialex24 said. I think Ness does all right on Frigate Orpheon.

Pk thunder is also pretty devastating because of Jigglypuff's low fall speed.

illinialex24 · Dec 23, 2008

ColinJF said:
I agree with 60-40 Ness wins but I don't agree with everything illinialex24 said. I think Ness does all right on Frigate Orpheon.

Pk thunder is also pretty devastating because of Jigglypuff's low fall speed.

Not really, she does fall slowly but she can time it right so she knows when to come in. IE, she can time where she is and where you are in the PK thunder and figure out whether she should come in, ledge hog, or just wait on the ledge and hope you miss the ledge. If she screws up, its a death, but thats not that common unless its wifi......

Veril · Dec 23, 2008

illinialex24 said:
Rest is []Balmost[/B] a non factor here

Rest can interrupt Ness's jab combo or any followup to his up-tilt at low %. An approaching f-air can be rest countered with proper SDI.

I've tested Ness and I'm pretty sure that's all we've got in terms of interrupts.

Well, I'm done here. Bye Earthbound kids.

Neon Ness · Dec 23, 2008

Neon Ness said:
Jigglypuff is not as easy as it might seem at first sight. Ness and Jigglypuff are both aerialists, but the Puff has greater mobility and control than Ness in the air. Whereas Ness is about hitting hard a few times with great precision, I see Jigglypuff as being more agile and evasive, racking up damage with several weaker attacks. Also, if Jigglypuff gets you offstage, the Wall of Pain makes it tough to get back since PK Thunder 2 can only go so far... Forward air is one of our best options here (what else is new?) to interrupt a potential Wall of Pain, and it's probably best for us to shy away from attacks that leave Ness vulnerable like PK Flash and PK Thunder 2 setups, lest we get careless and fall prey to a Drill Rest. The thing about Jigglypuff is that it's really light, and Ness' attacks hit so hard that he can really end a stock pretty early if he takes control of the fight. Thunder juggling works wonders against a floaty character like Jigglypuff since she's in the air so often.

Too lazy to think of new stuff to say. I only have 1 Jigglypuff to fight, but he's really good, so the stuff here oughta be accurate for the most part.

Don't get ~~grabbed~~ knocked offstage and end the match as soon as you can. I've found that the longer the match draws out, the less chance I seem to have of winning...

g2g4l · Dec 23, 2008

I'll give it to 65-35. Jigglypuff is a very solid character but her ground game is pretty much below par. So she relies on the air, which is very good but so does ness. And he just does it better not by too much, but combine that with his methods of killing(which take effect at around 75%+ if i remember right) he does win this match up, and by a nice margin too.

so maybe 6-4 being generous

GeneralWoodman · Dec 23, 2008

if u get one nair or dair from a jiggz offstage...ur just not gonna recover nuff said. frigate is small and therefore you'll be offstage alot and jiggz will win for sure

_clinton · Dec 23, 2008

GeneralWoodman said:
if u get one nair or dair from a jiggz offstage...ur just not gonna recover nuff said. frigate is small and therefore you'll be offstage alot and jiggz will win for sure

Nah...1st off there is the issue with landing the air...Ness' 2nd kicks ***...in more ways then one...

Still Jiggs air movement horizontally is pretty much equal to Ness' air movement and his 2nd jump in the long run...just throwing that out there...in case any Ness' think it is smart to try and intercept the puff ball...but hey...at least Ness kill power is nice...

Masky · Dec 23, 2008

Just don't get gimped and this matchup should honestly not be a problem... who plays Jigglypuff anyway? Topic would be better off spending multiple weeks on Snake and MK instead of discussing Jigglypuff

Thinkaman · Dec 23, 2008

Ness beats Jigglypuff. Ness can go toe-to-toe with her in the air, can build damage reliably, and has the uair and b-throw; wherever Jigglypuff is, Ness has a reliable very-low percent kill.

If Jigglypuff didn't gimp Ness well off stage (where he should never be), Ness would be a hard counter.

MrEh · Dec 23, 2008

Masky said:
...who plays Jigglypuff anyway? Topic would be better off spending multiple weeks on Snake and MK instead of discussing Jigglypuff

Who plays Ness?

In all seriousness, every character deserves a good discussion. Even though you may not see them much in a tournament environment, it's important to know what you're up against.

What's more humiliating? Getting beaten by Meta Knight, or getting beaten by Bowser, simply because you aren't familiar with the matchup?

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