Point taken. But don't compare Jigglypuff to Bowser...Who plays Ness?
In all seriousness, every character deserves a good discussion. Even though you may not see them much in a tournament environment, it's important to know what you're up against.
What's more humiliating? Getting beaten by Meta Knight, or getting beaten by Bowser, simply because you aren't familiar with the matchup?
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PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]
- Thread starter Yink
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Veril
Frame Savant
_clinton
Smash Master
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Meh, Ness can handle playing off stage, still I guess this is jiggs we are talking about. Being off stage is pretty much her playground, I still feel Ness can hold his own and make it back for the most part. Oh and you forgot Bair and Dair (sour spot, not the spike), + Ness' Nair can kill, really 4/5 of Ness' airs can KO, Fair has a low set distance if that matters (it doesn't, not with JP)
xoxokev
Smash Lord
I've played this match-up too many times. It IS 60-40 Ness, if not 65-35
Poor Jigglypuff
Poor Jigglypuff
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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Thanks guys, I really appreciate the input.
So 6-4 Ness?
Who are we doing next guys?
So 6-4 Ness?
Who are we doing next guys?
Earthbound Zero
Smash Journeyman
Why not Yoshi or Luigi?
I have a feeling those matchups will be quite interesting.
I have a feeling those matchups will be quite interesting.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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Luigi it is then.
Earthbound Zero
Smash Journeyman
I fought a decent Luigi a long while ago, I need to go think about this matchup. :x
It's pretty close, considering Luigi, like Ness, doesn't have the world's best ground game either.
It's pretty close, considering Luigi, like Ness, doesn't have the world's best ground game either.
Neon Ness
Designated Procrastinator
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Luigi's hard as heck, but I haven't fought many.
Don't get close? His neutral air murks and has killing pouvoir. And it even looks like it comes out faster than Ness', but I'd have to ask Ref about the frame data to be certain. The Cyclone is a crazy good juggler, and leads into up tilt and air combos, at least with the person I've played. We need Luigi mains in hurr to tell us how to stop the Cyclone. >=) But yeah, that's about the extent of my Weegee knowledge.
Don't get close? His neutral air murks and has killing pouvoir. And it even looks like it comes out faster than Ness', but I'd have to ask Ref about the frame data to be certain. The Cyclone is a crazy good juggler, and leads into up tilt and air combos, at least with the person I've played. We need Luigi mains in hurr to tell us how to stop the Cyclone. >=) But yeah, that's about the extent of my Weegee knowledge.
FireKirby7
Smash Lord
I main Luigi, and know a lot about him.
He is a combo machine, if you get hit by his utilt/dthrow, he'll follow with uairs, bairs, nairs.....(especially at low %) and will rack up some nice damage. Ness Nair would get you out of them.
I know that pro Luigis like to jab grab or jab up-B. I think you can barely dodge it by moving away from Luigi right when you see yourself getting jabbed. It's a pretty good move XD
His air game is huge, ground game is good with his quick smashes and utilt.
Absorb those fireballs, dunno how to stop tornado. And dont get hit by nair.......
He is a combo machine, if you get hit by his utilt/dthrow, he'll follow with uairs, bairs, nairs.....(especially at low %) and will rack up some nice damage. Ness Nair would get you out of them.
I know that pro Luigis like to jab grab or jab up-B. I think you can barely dodge it by moving away from Luigi right when you see yourself getting jabbed. It's a pretty good move XD
His air game is huge, ground game is good with his quick smashes and utilt.
Absorb those fireballs, dunno how to stop tornado. And dont get hit by nair.......
bobson
Smash Lord
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Don't underestimate his ground game. His up-angled fsmash has half the lag of his regular one and will kill in the early eighties with DI, his dsmash comes out as fast as Metaknight's, he's got good jab-canceling options, landing a utilt or a dthrow at low percents will almost always guarantee a followup, and of course you can't forget the grounded up-B.
The cyclone should be stopped by anything disjointed, like your dash attack or fair, although it still works as a decent grounded approach if you aren't expecting it. Also, nair has more priority than God and I'm pretty sure it will go through PK thunder, so watch out for that.
The cyclone should be stopped by anything disjointed, like your dash attack or fair, although it still works as a decent grounded approach if you aren't expecting it. Also, nair has more priority than God and I'm pretty sure it will go through PK thunder, so watch out for that.
Earthbound Zero
Smash Journeyman
He doesn't have the best range, but his ground game is fast and powerful. ^^
I despise Luigi's Nair, all I know is that my friend spammed that move while I was playing jiggly, and used it really often against my Ness. >.> All I know is that if Ness is at a disadvantage here, it's only by a bit, thanks to Ness' great range in the air. Once Luigi get's in that range however...
I despise Luigi's Nair, all I know is that my friend spammed that move while I was playing jiggly, and used it really often against my Ness. >.> All I know is that if Ness is at a disadvantage here, it's only by a bit, thanks to Ness' great range in the air. Once Luigi get's in that range however...
thesage
Smash Hero
Don't get jabbed.
Yes, Luigi relies a little too much on combos. His up tilt can just lead into up airs or some other moves. To make things worse, he can get you up to around 50% if you don't try and escape. You're better off DIing if he uses his up tilt since it comes out quick and using a attack like your down air isn't worth it. Maybe your neutral air can stop him, though. Unlike Mario, you can spam your PSI at him. Also, he has maybe three to four ways of recovering. Second Jump > Forward B > Down B > Up B. His second jump can go anywhere, though depending on how the player wants to recover. This makes fighting him a bit more annoying than he already is.
Like Mario, he'll approach with Fireballs at times just to distract you so he can put in some other attacks. I don't fight too many Luigi's, so when I fight him, I pretty much suck since I have no idea, other than the info I put down, what I'm going against.
Like Mario, he'll approach with Fireballs at times just to distract you so he can put in some other attacks. I don't fight too many Luigi's, so when I fight him, I pretty much suck since I have no idea, other than the info I put down, what I'm going against.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
QFT. I've fought some Ness's. But not too many good ones. From what I've known, it's hecka fun to combo the **** out of ness UNLESS they DI and properly position themselves away from luigi's combo range.
Luigi's usually fireball approach but it's different from Mario's. Luigi's fireball acts as a Anti-SH projectile. Meaning it will prove a small distraction.
Ness players have the upper advantage in terms of aerial movement. Use this to your advantage. Retreating and offensive Fair walls will wreck luigi alot. Anything disjointed you must use.
Anyways, if your comboing luigi, if there's small breather 100% of the time if your within range he'll Nair you. Nair has a strong hitbox *comes out frame 3 and around 5?* *Weak hitbox comes out 5 or 6 lazy to check and ends like frame something lol.
The things you should be fully aware of is Nair, air game, shoryukens. other then that your fine.
Im lazy to make a bigger wall of text but keep the discussion going
Neon Ness
Designated Procrastinator
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O RLY?
Fight Chrono/EB360. They'll show you what's up.
And Fireball approach is no good for the most part. Ness can absorb them and roll/jump away to safety out of PSI Magnet.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
Lol Luigi is prone to that what's that spike combo w/e it is called i think pillar spike o_o; If you guys think Luigi ***** in recovery, think again, his greenmissle/misfire has like **** priority so any attack will outprioritize it, his upb can just be easily bair stage spiked, tornado has 2 blind spots from above and below.
but then again it's not like ness can be easily gimped lol
but then again it's not like ness can be easily gimped lol
PolMex23
Smash Champion
Ask Masky about this match up an he'll tell you...wait he just did...
I dont really want to explain, but...
Anyone Luig below a very good player is a = match up for you.
Any Luigi player that is very good an above is...id say a ... 80-20.
It is a HOORRRRIBLE match up for Nessy poo.thats right I said it.
Hmmm...one mistake, an your getting comboed to 50+ than up-B'ed.
So easy to combo Ness. Mad gimpable off the stage. You cant spike luigi players since most good ones will recover high.
Just sucks for you guys. Just a nasty match up.
I clearly remember me being at 100 somthin againsst masky when I finally killed him for the first kill of the match...than...he missed, i comboed, an finished with an up-B without getting touched an BAM...its 3 to 1 ann your not winning.
Masky is a sexy ness too...so no he aint good johns.
BAD MATCH UP!!!!!!!!!!
Ness really doesn't need to spike or pillar spike his opponents to win a match. He's got a lot of other attacks that can do the job. And yes, Luigi's nair is gay.
Give me some names.
PolMex23
Smash Champion
Oh we will son!!! we will!!!!
Recorded too!!! Everything recoreded!!!!
YEA..
An to Neon NEss...No, its not slight, its heavy, harsh, an unreal. Bad match up for you sir, very bad.
If you cant beat masky, than youll get 3 stocked by me regurarly. Its a HARD match up.
Guys get it through your heads...BAD MATCH UP xD
Ty, an I cant wait to play brawl again. I like melee so much better, but brawl is funner with Luigi right now since im really good. In melee i fell so out dated...but C falc is sexy
Recorded too!!! Everything recoreded!!!!
YEA..
An to Neon NEss...No, its not slight, its heavy, harsh, an unreal. Bad match up for you sir, very bad.
If you cant beat masky, than youll get 3 stocked by me regurarly. Its a HARD match up.
Guys get it through your heads...BAD MATCH UP xD
Ty, an I cant wait to play brawl again. I like melee so much better, but brawl is funner with Luigi right now since im really good. In melee i fell so out dated...but C falc is sexy
^^^ You sound like you're pulling a lot of stuff out of your ***. If Luigi is a worse match up for Ness, more than Marth is, then Marth shouldn't really be a problem. That's what you make this match up sound like. Also, ditto matches mean nothing. Perhaps you missed that part.
Neon Ness
Designated Procrastinator
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...Yeah, maybe. But I still think it's only slightly in Luigi's favor... For a Ness that's really good, I'm pretty sure she/he wouldn't get murked that badly. Not like the Game & Watch or Marth matchup...
The important thing here is patience. Admittedly, Ness won't get to KO early or easily. We've got to remember spacing to avoid insane combos, which means forward air and punishing mistakes with PK Fire on occasion. In close range, Ness' neutral air can keep him at bay effectively because of its speed and knockback. Ness has to stay aerial to avoid the sliding Cyclone from a distance, but that also means dealing with up air, back air, and neutral air which excel in strength/spacing/priority. I think back throw is out for KOs, getting close to Luigi is tough. Short hopped down air to swell surprise/up air might work...
It's not easy for Ness, but I'm not convinced that it's terrible for him either.
_clinton
Smash Master
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I should point out some things: A. Weegee's cyclone is sort of like Link/Tink's spin attacks, in that there is no hitbox on the head. So yeah there is a blind spot.
B. I wonder what is harder to hit with, PKT2 or the SJP? Still I should point out that Weegee does seem to kill earlier overall, his back throw can even kill to a point...still I feel some testing should be done to test my hypothesis about Weegee's kill power>Ness'. So this is all for now...see ya
B. I wonder what is harder to hit with, PKT2 or the SJP? Still I should point out that Weegee does seem to kill earlier overall, his back throw can even kill to a point...still I feel some testing should be done to test my hypothesis about Weegee's kill power>Ness'. So this is all for now...see ya
Earthbound Zero
Smash Journeyman
Does Luigi have Frame data? I can't find any. ):
Gaussis
Smash Ace
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Funny thing is that you haven't really given any support to your claim other than you beat Masky. He's a good player, but one player doesn't determine the matchup.
I'm having trouble believing that Luigi's at an advantage, when he clearly has to approach. His Cyclone is viable, yet easily predictable and has lag at the end. Any aerials can be utilted since he jumps so high for a SH. Air speed is crap. Also, Ness (out of all people) has more range than Luigi on the ground (with the exception of Cyclone).
What Luigi does have are his Shuryuken BS which can kill at a low percentage. However, I would say that it is comparable to PKT2, which kills even lower. I say this because it really only happens under three circumstances
- Unexpected approach
- Jab/grab followup
- Tripping (no Johns lol)
Luigi also has an airgame similar to Ness's to a certain level. However, Ness has more range and is in fact faster than Luigi in this aspect also. Luigi beats Ness frame-wise, but since he lacks the speed and range to use this to his advantage, it doesn't mean much (except for the fact that you cannot be near him in the air).
I also can't understand where this gimping BS comes from. First of all, if Luigi is gimping Ness, then Ness is recovering wrong. He is far too slow to take advantage of PKT's speed (unless you count a rising Cyclone or a misfire missile as something, but it's situational). Second, he doesn't have specific attacks that launch Ness in a horizontal position, so he can't force PKT. Third, Ness has more range in the air, so I don't see it happening apart from a mistake.
That's it for now.
PKNintendo, you ignored my request. Twice
. It's ok though.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
A good luigi won't be making any mistake at all. Ness's neutral air comes out frame 4. Luigi's Nair comes out at frame 3. Luigi's comes out faster by 1 frame. PK fire can be easily avoided with SHs and powershielded.
: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175652 There it is
Funny thing is that you haven't really given any support to your claim other than you beat Masky. He's a good player, but one player doesn't determine the matchup.
I'm having trouble believing that Luigi's at an advantage, when he clearly has to approach. His Cyclone is viable, yet easily predictable and has lag at the end. Any aerials can be utilted since he jumps so high for a SH. Air speed is crap. Also, Ness (out of all people) has more range than Luigi on the ground (with the exception of Cyclone).
What Luigi does have are his Shuryuken BS which can kill at a low percentage. However, I would say that it is comparable to PKT2, which kills even lower. I say this because it really only happens under three circumstances
- Unexpected approach
- Jab/grab followup
- Tripping (no Johns lol)
Luigi also has an airgame similar to Ness's to a certain level. However, Ness has more range and is in fact faster than Luigi in this aspect also. Luigi beats Ness frame-wise, but since he lacks the speed and range to use this to his advantage, it doesn't mean much (except for the fact that you cannot be near him in the air).
I also can't understand where this gimping BS comes from. First of all, if Luigi is gimping Ness, then Ness is recovering wrong. He is far too slow to take advantage of PKT's speed (unless you count a rising Cyclone or a misfire missile as something, but it's situational). Second, he doesn't have specific attacks that launch Ness in a horizontal position, so he can't force PKT. Third, Ness has more range in the air, so I don't see it happening apart from a mistake.
That's it for now.
PKNintendo, you ignored my request. Twice
His tornado isn't his only approach. It's only laggy at the end. You will have to shield the whole thing then punish it for it's ending lag. But tornados can throw you off guard. Remember that luigi will be mixing in their SH game. And what? Luigi's Nair will trade off with Ness's utilt. Yes luigi's air speed is crap we know that.
Lol Ness has more range on the ground wtfux? What moves is his ground moves? o.O
Ness's PKT2 is more situational than luigi's shoryuken.
You make it sound like his aerial speed sound poor piss. Luigi can gimp Ness. You just have to just bair him far enough for him not to recover.
Oh, really? Then why isn't the match up 100-0? If Luigi has the advantage, as you claim, what allows Ness to win ever? Tripping might be able to make it maybe 99-1 but the reason match ups aren't so brutally one sided is that good players do make mistakes.
However, that's tangential, as Luigi obviously does not have the advantage versus Ness. Also pk thunder 2 is easier to land than Fire Jump Punch. But I mostly agree with Gaussis.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Wrong.
Luigi's "Shoryuken" is basically Jigglypuff's Rest with less down time but no invincibility frames. PKT leads into PKT2 naturally, so the actual projectile can be used to set up a PKT2 hit. You've got pretty much your whole arsenal to work woth to hit with PKT2, as you do with Luigi.
... except Luigi's move is what, one frame in one small location? Yeah, pretty sure PKT2 has a lot more to it than that.
_clinton
Smash Master
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Ness' Nair comes out on frame 5 ok...we have better data now...I wonder if yours is perfect?
I'm back with the kill % anyway
Ness does happen to die at a lower % (of course) but that is maybe only about 1-2% less then Weegee does (Ness is a mid weight as well you know)
Ness kills horizontally more then Weegee does (Weegee is of course vertical) and for the purpose of this I wanted to make sure the Kills were at the worse possible situation for both of them. Naturally this was on FD, which is pretty long horizontally compared to the other stages like it (BF, SV, YI, LC are all sorter of course)
PKT2 is stronger then the SJP from Weegee and in the worse case senerio it shows (53% for PKT2 compared to 49%)
Speaking of SJP more...getting hit by the sweet spot is like getting hit by PK Flash at full power and aimed up of course ^_^ 52% for PK Flash
Green Missile...85% full powered on Ness, 66% misfire...I didn't want to test the last second fire of Green Missile (because there was no way it was stronger then the misfire)
The Bat Ness is packing will KO at 107% if sweetspotted, but if it isn't sweet...it can take up to 156%
PK Fire doesn't trap Weegee that well IMO...because of how floaty he is...
Anyway there ends the situational kill data...
1. Fsmash for Weegee-95% non tilted, 80% tilted up, 113% tilted down...again a mostly vertical kill move when up mostly...range sucks on it, but it is still a threat
2. Up smash with back turned to character=104%
3. Nair=116% sweet of course
4. Utilt=127%
5. Dsmash front side=130%
Explain to me what Weegee has for Horizontal that isn't Green Missile?
Oh yeah
6. Bthrow=82-192%
It doesn't build in power well I guess ^_^
Ness now...
1. Uair=121%
2. Bair=134%
3. Bthrow=143% (82% it ties with Weegee's kill on Ness)
Again all of these kills were in the worse possible situation...on FD...which seems to like Vertical Kills more then Horizontal kills in the worse possible situation...
Seeing this info in mind I don't see Weegee having much of a kill + over Ness...it is there...but it isn't huge
Anyway I feel Ness can sort of destroy Weegee when ledge guarding...but that is for a different post...
I'm back with the kill % anyway
Ness does happen to die at a lower % (of course) but that is maybe only about 1-2% less then Weegee does (Ness is a mid weight as well you know)
Ness kills horizontally more then Weegee does (Weegee is of course vertical) and for the purpose of this I wanted to make sure the Kills were at the worse possible situation for both of them. Naturally this was on FD, which is pretty long horizontally compared to the other stages like it (BF, SV, YI, LC are all sorter of course)
PKT2 is stronger then the SJP from Weegee and in the worse case senerio it shows (53% for PKT2 compared to 49%)
Speaking of SJP more...getting hit by the sweet spot is like getting hit by PK Flash at full power and aimed up of course ^_^ 52% for PK Flash
Green Missile...85% full powered on Ness, 66% misfire...I didn't want to test the last second fire of Green Missile (because there was no way it was stronger then the misfire)
The Bat Ness is packing will KO at 107% if sweetspotted, but if it isn't sweet...it can take up to 156%
PK Fire doesn't trap Weegee that well IMO...because of how floaty he is...
Anyway there ends the situational kill data...
1. Fsmash for Weegee-95% non tilted, 80% tilted up, 113% tilted down...again a mostly vertical kill move when up mostly...range sucks on it, but it is still a threat
2. Up smash with back turned to character=104%
3. Nair=116% sweet of course
4. Utilt=127%
5. Dsmash front side=130%
Explain to me what Weegee has for Horizontal that isn't Green Missile?
Oh yeah
6. Bthrow=82-192%
It doesn't build in power well I guess ^_^
Ness now...
1. Uair=121%
2. Bair=134%
3. Bthrow=143% (82% it ties with Weegee's kill on Ness)
Again all of these kills were in the worse possible situation...on FD...which seems to like Vertical Kills more then Horizontal kills in the worse possible situation...
Seeing this info in mind I don't see Weegee having much of a kill + over Ness...it is there...but it isn't huge
Anyway I feel Ness can sort of destroy Weegee when ledge guarding...but that is for a different post...
Neon Ness
Designated Procrastinator
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Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
It helps to have a move that's faster so you get an advantage, though.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Oh, don't get me wrong. I 100% agree with your statement.
It's just that slow *****es like me need that frame data so we don't suffer to hell and back.
It's just that slow *****es like me need that frame data so we don't suffer to hell and back.
Hey, don't call yourself slow. ): How about this, both our statements are true.
Because yeah, you are right. C: Not about being slow, though. D:
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
lol, man you should play me more. I'm very slow. :3