PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

I would but I lack the experience to really describe it as an advantage. Neutral sounds good to me also...

My 2 cents.

Luigi is an amazing aerial fighter, but don't forget Ness has great aerials too. Fair will outrange most of Luigi aerials except bair IIRC. They equally matched in the air. Whats sad about Luigi is that he can't shield grab as well because of his traction issues. SH aerial assaults work well on Luigi. Psi magnet can deal with the fireballs, but assuming that they cancel them out is stupid. Psi magnet is crap, and will always be crap. (grr) it just helps.

Luigi has a superior ground game.

Unlike his bro, Luigi's recovery is easily telegraphed for a PK flash. I must of been brain dead when it was harder to PK flash Luigi than Mario. It's just to **** predictable, and unlike Mario, we don't have to face any gimps whatsoever. Nailing him with PKT is also easy while he recovers.

KO wise, Ness has his bair, PKT2, uair and backthrow. Compared to Luigi's Fsmash of doom, Shoryuken, and nair, I think wins out when it's time to KO.

I don't know, but I actually have a much easier time facing Luigi than Mario. The matchups seems even to me.

Eh moving on. Wario now.

Can we post that picture from the Emissary of Wario grabbing onto the head of the Lucas statue as matchup evidence?

PhantomX said:

Can we post that picture from the Emissary of Wario grabbing onto the head of the Lucas statue as matchup evidence?

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Sure but don't you mean the head of Ness and Lucas running away?

PhantomX said:

Can we post that picture from the Emissary of Wario grabbing onto the head of the Lucas statue as matchup evidence?

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So...you are saying Wario can only beat Ness if he has items around and Ness doesn't have them and is trying to protect someone else? ^_^

BTW this is post 1,000 for me now ^_^

Ref said:

Sure but don't you mean the head of Ness and Lucas running away?

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Yes. And it's actually irrelevant, but I think it looks hilarious.

I don't really know what to say about this matchup to be honest. We outlive you, whatever wins in the air is generally a tossup, you guys have slow-ish projectiles. We can gimp, but we can also get punished massively for attempting it if our timing is off. We outlive you and can kill a bit better (ground break fsmash) which is probably the only thing putting this in our favor.

I'm pretty sure it was PK Nintendo who said the ground break F smash could be EIDI away from making it a miss and punishable.

PhantomX said:

Yes. And it's actually irrelevant, but I think it looks hilarious.

I don't really know what to say about this matchup to be honest. We outlive you, whatever wins in the air is generally a tossup, you guys have slow-ish projectiles. We can gimp, but we can also get punished massively for attempting it if our timing is off. We outlive you and can kill a bit better (ground break fsmash) which is probably the only thing putting this in our favor.

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What about range?

And yes the Fsmash is sexy from Wario in more ways then one that isn't release related...but I'm pretty sure Ness' Bthrow is just as sexy sometimes...anyway...I'm thinking I'll get some data on the kill ranges...

PhantomX said:

Yes. And it's actually irrelevant, but I think it looks hilarious.

I don't really know what to say about this matchup to be honest. We outlive you, whatever wins in the air is generally a tossup, you guys have slow-ish projectiles. We can gimp, but we can also get punished massively for attempting it if our timing is off. We outlive you and can kill a bit better (ground break fsmash) which is probably the only thing putting this in our favor.

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I'll add mine.

Ness is very easily gimped after his second jump has been used by Wario, as we can jump down to you and eat your PK thunder, then bike back to the stage, or just be evil and toss our bike at you off the stage (I do that all the time.) which goes through PK Missile. Your Bair walls are very annoying to get by, but otherwise Wario kinda owns the airways due to great DI, and Ness, besides the Bthrow, has a very hard time of killing Wario due to the weight. Oh, and don't forget, release to Fsmash OR waft, which can mean guaranteed death if done right. Ness has an easy time spiking Wario sometimes though, and his Ground game is better then Wario. 6:4 in Wario's favor about.

Forgot to add, Wario can eat PK missile too.

Wario, advantage? Maybe. Idk. 50-50 for me

Ref said:

I'm pretty sure it was PK Nintendo who said the ground break F smash could be EIDI away from making it a miss and punishable.

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We can take a step, if we must, it still lands from my experience. Even if it doesn't, we're in control, as you have very few options after that ground break. Your grab is a great killer, but Wario is arguably the hardest character to grab in the game, and your grab range is one of the worst. You're more likely to kill with a well timed upair/dair/bair or fsmash. Range is never in Wario's favor (except grab ranges), but his aerial spacing more than makes up for it.

Spam the hell out of him with PK fires when both grounded, then space w/ fairs or whatever else, Mix it up though, once Wario is in your comfort zone it's hard to get him back out. Try to avoid fullhopping anything, you WILL take an upair to your tiny body, which is crazy against someone as small/light as ness. I don't think it's 50:50, but I also don't think Wario has advantage greater than 60:40. Avoid the gimp setups at all costs, though. I think our bair can actually exchange hits w/ your fair, so watch out for that too.

Although Ness is small, he isn't that light... Ness is mid weight, if I remember correctly, I think he's about the same weight as Pit

If you're not top of mid to heavyweight against Wario, you're light XD

Ness, Pit, and Lucas have exactly the same weight, which is in fact the middle most weight. But weight isn't the only thing governing survivability: all survivability is affected by fall speed acceleration; vertical survivability is affected by top fall speed; and horizontal survivability is affected by horizontal air speed acceleration and top horizontal air speed.

And that's not even including momentum cancelling options.

All told, "weight" isn't that useful of a concept for talking about survivability, though it does give a rough estimate.

PhantomX said:

We can take a step, if we must, it still lands from my experience. Even if it doesn't, we're in control, as you have very few options after that ground break. Your grab is a great killer, but Wario is arguably the hardest character to grab in the game, and your grab range is one of the worst. You're more likely to kill with a well timed upair/dair/bair or fsmash. Range is never in Wario's favor (except grab ranges), but his aerial spacing more than makes up for it.

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Go ahead and try to out space us in the air...I don't mind PK Thunder set ups...

PhantomX said:

Spam the hell out of him with PK fires when both grounded, then space w/ fairs or whatever else, Mix it up though, once Wario is in your comfort zone it's hard to get him back out. Try to avoid fullhopping anything, you WILL take an upair to your tiny body, which is crazy against someone as small/light as ness. I don't think it's 50:50, but I also don't think Wario has advantage greater than 60:40. Avoid the gimp setups at all costs, though. I think our bair can actually exchange hits w/ your fair, so watch out for that too.

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It is stupid to spam the hell out of PK Fire...it is just a move tempted with the thought of spam to a point...

And I'm pretty sure Nair will do what it usually does and allow Ness some space with Wario as well...I don't really see Wario as a threat up close is what I'm saying...and anything can exchange hits with Fair in Ness' body range...Ness' body has no hit box when using Fair...anyway...kill % now...remember this is done with the worse possible situation for everyone...on FD...which doesn't seem to be fair for Ness when it comes to certain kill ranges...

Wario
1. Fsmash=128
2. Uair=118 (vertical)
3. Ftilt=152 (140 angled up)
4. Waft
21%=124
40%=132
Full head from 40%=89% (it is vertical)

For those of you that don't know...Wario's situtational kill move Wario Waft takes 2 minutes to fully charge, but it can KO well at 1/2 power very well as well (see for yourself the difference between 21% and 40%) it is worthless pretty much until it reaches 1/2 power...so do note that you should watch the clock in this match very closely...because the person playing as Wario will...and for being a situational kill move...it sure is a fun sneak attack...and don't try to come in on Wario's head that much...even if Dair's hit box is just that bad ***...

Ness now...
1. PKT2=57%
2. PK Flash=57% (vertical)
3. Fsmash=111%
4. Uair=129% (vertical)
5. Bair=143%
6. Bthrow=149%

God I love Ness' Bthrow...remember the range on Weegee that I did for it? Fun to note that after the 1/2 mark in FD...Ness' Bthrow does get very week like that for some reason...also what is up with the Fsmash, most of the time the sweet spot is about 10% off from the Bair...I guess Wario doesn't like getting a large block of wood through his teeth...big shock there...what this means is...learn to pivot space better when fighting Wario...anyway it is nice to know that there really isn't much of a kill difference for Wario and Ness is what I mean...

Oh and I should point out...even though Wario's Bite will destroy Ness' recovery when he has to use PKT (do note that you don't want to try and grab Ness at the start of his PKT2 though...Ness' special frames will beat your ***) Ness' recovery range before he has to use PKT is the same as Mario's full recovery range (which is the same range Pit, and MK have w/o a glide...yeah guess what people...I finished my testing in horizontal ranged recovery)

Our bite beats out your nair, bite is what makes close range fighting against Wario dangerous (it puts the game in his favor, as he severely limits your options), and this is pretty much for every character, haha. Also, I don't know what you mean by PK Thunder setups, cuz I never get hit by those unless I'm trying to gimp and doing terribly at it. I didn't mean to spam PK Fire btw, intelligent use of it is what's recommended. It's a great tool when on the ground against our limited movement and ground options.

Also, for the record. Waft isn't situational in the least. I generally land 1-2 for kills per game of the 4 or 5 (if it lasts that long) that I try (some are misses, some are for damage or gimping). It's 5 frames and has a wonderful hitbox, and it even does decent damage, so it's massively versatile. 55 seconds (for half charge) passes in no time at all. Definitely watch out for the fully charged one as that one comes with super armor (though it comes out slower). Lastly, our waft actually increases in knockback strength until it becomes fully charged. I believe it can kill Mario at something like 55% from the center of FD with DI the second before full charging.

PhantomX said:

Our bite beats out your nair, bite is what makes close range fighting against Wario dangerous (it puts the game in his favor, as he severely limits your options), and this is pretty much for every character, haha. Also, I don't know what you mean by PK Thunder setups, cuz I never get hit by those unless I'm trying to gimp and doing terribly at it. I didn't mean to spam PK Fire btw, intelligent use of it is what's recommended. It's a great tool when on the ground against our limited movement and ground options.

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You don't know what I mean by PKT set ups...well other then the fact that PKT naturally leads into PKT2 I don't really know how else to define it ^_^

And I'm pretty sure Firebound might help with spacing when using PK Fire if any Ness out there uses it...

And I'm pretty sure Nair is faster then bite in activation...but I'm pretty sure that isn't how you use Bite anyway (more of a punishment tool right) but still I'm pretty sure Ness will at least trade in the worse case situation anyway...

PhantomX said:

Also, for the record. Waft isn't situational in the least. I generally land 1-2 for kills per game of the 4 or 5 (if it lasts that long) that I try (some are misses, some are for damage or gimping). It's 5 frames and has a wonderful hitbox, and it even does decent damage, so it's massively versatile. 55 seconds (for half charge) passes in no time at all. Definitely watch out for the fully charged one as that one comes with super armor (though it comes out slower). Lastly, our waft actually increases in knockback strength until it becomes fully charged. I believe it can kill Mario at something like 55% from the center of FD with DI the second before full charging.

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Would you really fast define Situational for me if you would be nice ^_^

And you are aware that I never said it didn't go in power until fully charged right...in fact my words where simply put...it becomes "KO use" at 1/2 or so...I never said it didn't keep going up...I just gave the 1st range on when it becomes KO power...and IMO a KO power that is just a overall a bit stronger then Wario's Fsmash is something to look out for...because unlike Wario's Fsmash...it will always be fresh at least...

Situational means it's limited in it's applications or how it can be used, which isn't the case. It IS a limited move in the number of uses though, if that's what you meant. And yeah, we won't be activating bite at the same time you're starting a nair, we'll be starting it in your general vicinity as it has large range and benefits from grab armor.

PhantomX said:

Situational means it's limited in it's applications or how it can be used, which isn't the case. It IS a limited move in the number of uses though, if that's what you meant. And yeah, we won't be activating bite at the same time you're starting a nair, we'll be starting it in your general vicinity as it has large range and benefits from grab armor.

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Thank you for that...it is situational then...because it matches one of the definitions...of course if you think situational is bad...then sorry for that...

And I'm aware that Bite has a large range (for how long it can stay out) its just that a lot of Ness' other airs have large range as well...and I wonder how useful the move can really be (I mean it is useful don't get me wrong) when you have another character flying around in the air as well...it seems more useful if I'm on the ground is what I mean...

_clinton said:

its just that a lot of Ness' other airs have large range as well...and I wonder how useful the move can really be (I mean it is useful don't get me wrong) when you have another character flying around in the air as well...it seems more useful if I'm on the ground is what I mean...

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Wario's Bite can stop all your aerials if he's close enough. That's how manly it is.

MrEh said:

Wario's Bite can stop all your aerials if he's close enough. That's how manly it is.

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Yes...I know what grabs do...but I also happen to know that Ness' airs have pretty good range...

^^^
Yeah, Ness's aerial movement somewhat rivals Wario's, I'm thinking 50:50, just use nair to cancel out his fair/dair, I'm not sure if it over prioritizes or not, but its great defense against wario.

goodkid said:

^^^
Yeah, Ness's aerial movement somewhat rivals Wario's, I'm thinking 50:50, just use nair to cancel out his fair/dair, I'm not sure if it over prioritizes or not, but its great defense against wario.

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I wasn't talking about aerial movement actually (even though Ness' is fine of course, in my hoizontal recovery test Wario covers 13 platforms from 12 platforms up and Ness only covers 11, still Wario's is more speed based with fast falling where as Ness is a bit more floaty), I was talking about Ness having more range overall in his air game...

I didn't want to do this but...

Wario has got us beat. Luckily in the air, our fair outranges all of Wario's aerials. I actually think Ness beats Wario in the air due to that reason but... Wario's DI control is ridiculous, he'll be all over you with his aerials. In the ground they both have bad range it's true, and they'll both stick to the skies rather than try to go head to head on the ground.

Wario is a fatty and PKF traps him long enough for a guaranteed regrab or Fsmash if not properly DIed out of.

Wario's grab release Fsmash can be avoided so thats okay. While recovering, they can gimp us while we PKT, but it's not advised. Wario CANNOT eat the bolt with PKT, takes the damage instead. And we can loop PKT2 as well.

KO wise, Wario wins there's no doubt about it, but Ness isn't light and getting killed isn't as hectic as getting killed as Jiggs. Waft won't kill Ness at the center of FD with proper DI until 70%. Your wrong phantom.

All an all, Wario wins out. 55-45 or 6-4. Im leaning on 6-4.

Here's a video between Ness vs Wario.

Jeepysol vs (gasp) simna.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-N6P3kM94I

Ness isn't going to have an easy time with this matchup.

Ness has to space very well to defend against Wario. All of Ness' aerials outrange Warios, but most of Wario's are faster and rack up damage really fast. Once Ness makes a mistake, he'll be punished badly.

It's the same way on the ground. Ness outranges Wario, but Wario has quicker moves. Spacing is key in this matchup.

If Wario is trying to steal PK Thunder with Dair, in other words he's offstage, use Uair, it should outpriortize Dair and push Wario away. There's nothing you can about the bike however... if he throws it on time, your screwed if you aren't close enough to the ledge.

Can't you gimp Wario if you hit him with PKT before he jumps off his bike offstage?

Earthbound Zero said:

Ness isn't going to have an easy time with this matchup.

Ness has to space very well to defend against Wario. All of Ness' aerials outrange Warios, but most of Wario's are faster and rack up damage really fast. Once Ness makes a mistake, he'll be punished badly.

It's the same way on the ground. Ness outranges Wario, but Wario has quicker moves. Spacing is key in this matchup.

If Wario is trying to steal PK Thunder with Dair, in other words he's offstage, use Uair, it should outpriortize Dair and push Wario away. There's nothing you can about the bike however... if he throws it on time, your screwed if you aren't close enough to the ledge.

Can't you gimp Wario if you hit him with PKT before he jumps off his bike offstage?

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It's incredibly hard.

PKNintendo said:

KO wise, Wario wins there's no doubt about it, but Ness isn't light and getting killed isn't as hectic as getting killed as Jiggs. Waft won't kill Ness at the center of FD with proper DI until 70%. Your wrong phantom.

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Dude...KO damage wise Wario has us beat...but really it isn't by much...Ness kill power just drops in power for Bair and Bthrow when further away from the blast zone more then a few other kill moves do...really we are actually pretty close to the same KO power range on each other...

Earthbound Zero said:

Ness isn't going to have an easy time with this matchup.

Ness has to space very well to defend against Wario. All of Ness' aerials outrange Warios, but most of Wario's are faster and rack up damage really fast. Once Ness makes a mistake, he'll be punished badly.

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The speedy *******s are never really all that fun to fight...overall I find Wario actually more annoying to fight then someone like Marth though...still at least...Marth does seem to have of course a bigger + on Ness then Wario does IMO

Its just that speedy characters may drain you faster IMO...

And Ness always has to space very well...hell it is a key for fighting at a high level for him...his airs are really just in general overall a lot slower then the other air games other fighters have IMO...god look at Lucas' airs and how fast they are...

God...here is a list of air games that I'm pretty sure beat Ness in overall speed for how fast their main annoyer moves come out...
Mario
Luigi
Peach
DK
Diddy
Yoshi
Wario
Link
Zelda
Shiek
Tink
Samus
Zamus
Pit
Ice Climbers
ROB
Kirby
MK
D3
Olimar
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Falcon
Pikachu
Squirtle
Ivysaur
Charizard
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Marth
Ike
Ness' Nightmare ^_^
Lucas
G&W
Snake
Sonic

Still...no way is Wario 6-4 on Ness...

PKNintendo said:

I didn't want to do this but...

Wario has got us beat. Luckily in the air, our fair outranges all of Wario's aerials. I actually think Ness beats Wario in the air due to that reason but... Wario's DI control is ridiculous, he'll be all over you with his aerials. In the ground they both have bad range it's true, and they'll both stick to the skies rather than try to go head to head on the ground.

Wario is a fatty and PKF traps him long enough for a guaranteed regrab or Fsmash if not properly DIed out of.

Wario's grab release Fsmash can be avoided so thats okay. While recovering, they can gimp us while we PKT, but it's not advised. Wario CANNOT eat the bolt with PKT, takes the damage instead. And we can loop PKT2 as well.

Spoiler

For the Ness mains out there, doing the you know what, is easier on Wario

KO wise, Wario wins there's no doubt about it, but Ness isn't light and getting killed isn't as hectic as getting killed as Jiggs. Waft won't kill Ness at the center of FD with proper DI until 70%. Your wrong phantom.

All an all, Wario wins out. 55-45 or 6-4. Im leaning on 6-4.

Here's a video between Ness vs Wario.

Jeepysol vs (gasp) simna.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-N6P3kM94I

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I said Mario. If I said Ness, then that was my bad, b/c I meant Mario, lol. I'm curious as to what this "you know what" is though. And Wario is very good with SDI, so PKF might or might not keep us in long enough for a followup depending on our reaction time. And yes, Wario is gimpable when he's on his bike, if you can follow up with something do it. Personally I'll just take the PKT hit before biking if I see it coming though, and I'll survive anyway.

PhantomX said:

I said Mario. If I said Ness, then that was my bad, b/c I meant Mario, lol. I'm curious as to what this "you know what" is though. And Wario is very good with SDI, so PKF might or might not keep us in long enough for a followup depending on our reaction time. And yes, Wario is gimpable when he's on his bike, if you can follow up with something do it. Personally I'll just take the PKT hit before biking if I see it coming though, and I'll survive anyway.

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Mario can survive to that same % as Ness.
with good DI and an aerial you can survive the waft.

While Wario may be good with SDI, he's naturally bad with PKF, so it all balances out. The Wario I play usually escapes PKF with 16 (more or less)%. It would normally do 23% without it, thats still a good deal. Coupled with an auto grab, it's quite damaging.

Gimping Wario with PKT is not going to happen. Way to difficult, PKT is just to deal damage, not gimp.

Anyone see that match? I thought it was pretty good.

I have a question of my own. Wouldn't dair be the answer to Wario's mobility? Since the hitbox lasts a very long time and it's hitbox is deceptively large, wouldn't it stop Wario from going back and forth?

It stops him from approaching in the air really well. ^^

I haven't played a good Wario in a few months...

All I remember is that well timed Dair can keep him on the ground.

I always felt this matchup was even or 55:45 Wario.

I feel that once the Wario knows this match-up, he wins.
Like many of you said, wario's moves are faster... in this matchup Wario plays his offense while ness has to adapt to what wario is going to do next it seems like. So, if wario knows the match up well enough, he'll know what to watch out for and mix it up.

and i just thought of this but if a wario bikes over ness while ness is trying to recover, won't the bike eat the pk thunder?

i'd say 60-40

Ness can break up any offensive strategy over him using Nair. Dair stops aerial approaches that aren't disjointed. Fair is disjointed and can't be outranged by Wario.

The bike over PKT has to be precise, otherwise PKT2 may be able to reach the ledge. But gimping has already been discussed.

EDIT: Uh, your vid links are broken.

Gaussis said:

Ness can break up any offensive strategy over him using Nair. Dair stops aerial approaches that aren't disjointed. Fair is disjointed and can't be outranged by Wario.

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lol, ok. In that case, I guess the match up should just be 90-10 in favor of ness since it seems that Wario cannot do anything against him in the air.

PKNintendo said:

Wario's DI control is ridiculous, he'll be all over you with his aerials.

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^^Personally, I think that's what it comes down to.

I'll fix the links for the videos later, thanks for informing me.

Lol, not at all. It's just that Wario's aerial mobility will not turn the matchup to his favor, nor will gimping situations.

Reposting Simna vs Jeepy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-N6P3kM94I

stnapknah said:

I feel that once the Wario knows this match-up, he wins.
Like many of you said, wario's moves are faster... in this matchup Wario plays his offense while ness has to adapt to what wario is going to do next it seems like. So, if wario knows the match up well enough, he'll know what to watch out for and mix it up.

and i just thought of this but if a wario bikes over ness while ness is trying to recover, won't the bike eat the pk thunder?

i'd say 60-40

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We've already talked about Thunder...Wario will have an overall slightly somewhat easy time gimping Ness when he has to use it (2/5 in how hard it will be IMO)

As for speed...Yeah Wario is faster...but in truth it isn't by much from looking at your topic about your guys frame data

Jab=8 -> 17
Dash attack=4
Dtilt=5
Ftilt=14
Utilt=12
Dsmash=8 (behind)-?
Fsmash=9
Usmash=11
Nair=4
Dair=9-21
Fair=5
Bair=9
Uair=8
Bite=8-73
Bike=20
UpSpecial=6
Dspecial=5 or 9 if fully charged
Grab=6
Dash Grab=10
Pivot=8
Spot Dodge=25
Roll=37
Air Dodge=39
Air Born=7

Now look at Ness because of how sexy Ref is ^_^
Jab=3 -> 17 or so
Dash=7-38
Dtilt=3
Ftilt=7
Utilt=5
Dsmash=10-17
Fsmash=21
Usmash=9-15
Nair=4-19
Dair=20-28
Fair=8-33
Bair=10-15
Uair=8
PK Flash=Only has 26 frames of lag after seting it off
PK Fire=21
PK Thunder=19
PSI Magnet=10
Grab=6
Dash Grab=8
Pivot Grab=8
Spot Dodge=25
Forward Roll=31
Backward Roll=31
Air Dodge=?
Air Born=5

If it takes 7 frames for Wario to get off the ground, I think Ness can frame-trap him with Nair, though I'm not too sure how that will work out. Still though, Wario really only beats Ness frame-wise with Nair and Fair (and even then, Ness's Nair comes out on the same frame his Fair does). Frame-wise, Ness generally will beat him on the ground (dash attack and dtilt are his fastest moves, while Ness has dtilt and jab).

I think that's the important stuff from the frames, although I could have missed something.