PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

_clinton · Jan 1, 2009

I wonder if any Wario mains would be up for a match or two?

The_NZA · Jan 1, 2009

Wario's main problem is range. If ness can keep him away, ness will have the advantage. Its all about those fairs.

Popertop · Jan 2, 2009

If I can find ways around Marth's Fair, I don't think Ness's Fair will be too much trouble.

I've played this matchup, it's Wario's adv, 60-40

Gaussis · Jan 2, 2009

How? Ness is generally faster framewise. Besides, look into the video PK Nintendo showed. Simna uses a great deal of dairs against Jeepy's Wario. It's dair you have to look out for. And nair as well.

Earthbound Zero · Jan 2, 2009

Yay a Wario main! Now we can discuss more stuffz. :D

I say it's 50-50, the highest I think it'll go in Wario's favor is 55-45. Ness can space efficiently to stop Wario from getting too close. Wario is relitively easy to shieldgrab on the ground thanks to his range, though he has great mobility and can mindgame well because of it. Wario, like in the Luigi matchup, doesn't have a great ground game and lacks range enough range to the point Ness can outrange him on the ground. Wario can gimp Ness much easier than Ness can gimp him, but can be knocked away with Ness' Nair, but in certain situations Ness won't make it back without getting gimped, but this won't be often enough to make a large difference.

That's what I got out of reading this thread.

Popertop · Jan 2, 2009

Gaussis said:
How? Ness is generally faster framewise. Besides, look into the video PK Nintendo showed. Simna uses a great deal of dairs against Jeepy's Wario. It's dair you have to look out for. And nair as well.

Pretty sure Wario's Uair beats or ties with Ness's Dair.
And if not, if you spam Dair I can bait it with an air dodge and punish afterward.

*shrug*

@Earthbound

Jeepy didn't use Ftilt at all.
That is Wario's biggest ranged move. It has more range than some grabs, and it's range is deceptive. Also, you have to keep in mind that in most of Wario's matchups, he doesn't have a ground game as good as them. :laugh:

Also, I have found certian things I can do against a long range, disjointed Fair.
I know it's coming, so I will walk forward expecting it, and shield later than I normally do and run after and get a shieldgrab. I can jump over it and Dair, this is even more effective around platforms. I can also airdodge through it.

Or I can just play campy and not get hit by it. :chuckle:

Gaussis · Jan 2, 2009

You can't consistently beat dair with an airdodge (or any dodge for that matter). You will get punished for doing that with its lingering hitbox. Dairs will come just as Simna used them, when Wario is grounded or low in the air, not when Ness is coming down.

Also, look at the frames. Ness is faster than Wario on the ground and has comparable range to Wario (and it's disjointed).

Campiness might work against Ness...if he didn't have PKT. Unfortunately for Ness, this move won't be used as often due to Wario's airspeed, but it does stop him from camping Ness.

Don't disregard Ness's other aerials. Nair will probably be used much as well due to it's low startup and excellent priority. Bair and Uair are kill moves, so they will be used until killing percents (since relying on throws might be a bad idea).

PKNintendo · Jan 2, 2009

Our we done with Wario? I would like to move on. Too...

Popertop · Jan 2, 2009

The only thing left now is to play it out, I can see neither of us will budge.

PKNintendo · Jan 2, 2009

Budge on what? Ness mains, what those Ness REALLY have on Wario? Hell, Edrees promised he would play Ness solely in a tourney, but had to switch to Peach because he hated the Ness vs Wario matchup. I think it's 6-4.

(Ness is horrible online)

Gaussis · Jan 2, 2009

I'll play anyone just to see what really makes the matchup as so...(I have a pretty hard time believing it's 6:4). Hopefully, my Brawl still works...X_X.

Popertop · Jan 2, 2009

Most matchups against Wario that aren't horrible are his advantage, just because he's that good.

srsly. even Marth is doable, and he's a Wario counter.

_clinton · Jan 2, 2009

PKNintendo said:
Budge on what? Ness mains, what those Ness REALLY have on Wario? Hell, Edrees promised he would play Ness solely in a tourney, but had to switch to Peach because he hated the Ness vs Wario matchup. I think it's 6-4.

(Ness is horrible online)

I like how it doesn't seem to matter what anyone else thinks in the end except for you I see...

Gaussis · Jan 2, 2009

Frame data doesn't really show Wario as an exclusive advantage. You're only really describing mindgames here (the air mobility). His air mobility doesn't help him outspeed Ness because of PKT. Air speed is countered by range and somewhat on par frame-wise aerials. The rest is mindgames.

Unless you have conclusive evidence that Wario has some advantage against Ness, then we can attest to it. If not, it really only depends on skill (therefore more along the lines of even).

Just an example: Marth counters Wario because of his faster aerials and his range.

Popertop · Jan 2, 2009

You forgot about priority.

I'm just saying that Wario has advantage b/c of his nature.
In matchups that aren't horrendously one-sided, Wario has advantage because Dair is too good.

And DMG already says that it's 6-4, so we'll leave it at that.

Gaussis · Jan 2, 2009

It doesn't contend against Ness's range. Also, Ness has considerable priority on his moves as well. Most notibly on his Fair, Nair, utilt (not sure if it works on Wario), ftilt, and Dair.

Statements like Dair is too good doesn't really qualify for an advantage. Why? Well Dair doesn't have the range to contend against Ness's Fair. Also, one move doesn't decide the matchup.

DMG hasn't said why so I won't.

Popertop · Jan 2, 2009

If that was the case in every matchup then Wario wouldn't have an advantage.

That's why there's airdodge, and weaving.

*sigh*

_clinton · Jan 2, 2009

Popertop said:
That's why there's airdodge, and weaving.
*sigh*

Oh yes I agree, Ness has them as well you know ^_^

Popertop · Jan 3, 2009

What do you know?
You were a terrible President.

_clinton · Jan 3, 2009

Popertop said:
What do you know?
You were a terrible President.

Oh my that was a great comeback, you are so funny man!
:dizzy:

PKNintendo · Jan 3, 2009

_clinton said:
I like how it doesn't seem to matter what anyone else thinks in the end except for you I see...

It doesn't look good, I mean DMG (possibly the best Wario out there) has it set on 4-6, popertop plays Ness too, my vote, and possibly Ref are all set on 4-6.

Ref · Jan 3, 2009

I don't know this match up...

PKNintendo · Jan 3, 2009

Ref said:
I don't know this match up...

Oh dear...

_clinton · Jan 3, 2009

PKNintendo said:
It doesn't look good, I mean DMG (possibly the best Wario out there) has it set on 4-6, popertop plays Ness too, my vote, and possibly Ref are all set on 4-6.

May I get a reason why DMG has it 6-4?

PKNintendo · Jan 4, 2009

He's found that what Wario does to Ness warrants an advantage for him.
Heavier, capable to gimp and better at killing, they're equal in the air but not anywhere else.

Just a summary. Uh... Ganondorf next.

Look _Clinton, I know it looks like im betraying you guys, but I know that this isn't a good matchup for Ness... At all.

:mad: · Jan 4, 2009

Yeah, Ness doesn't have much on Ganondorf.
This won't be very good.

Earthbound Zero · Jan 4, 2009

Earthbound Zero said:
I play this matchup a lot, since one of the people I brawl the most mains Ganon.

In the air, Ganon's Uair is amazing, Ness has a hard time getting around it, and off stage it can stage spike. The huge problem in the air for Ganon is that his horizontal attacks (Bair and Fair) are completely out ranged by Ness, and near useless in this matchup. Dair is some what situational, but racks up a ton of damage, and kills Ness is he's on the ground. Wizard Foot is a huge annoyance at first, but is actually very punishable with almost all of Ness' aerials, and PK Fire and Thunder. You just have to be very quick about it, Ness wins by a somewhat large degree in the air.

On the ground, Ganon's choke and wizard foot are horrible for Ness, but thankfully are both avoided by a spot dodge, so it not really a on which to dodge. Choke>Dtilt is a combo on Ness, and if you predict Ness' movements, you can choke Ness more than once thanks to his long getting up attack. Ganon easily can escape the edge of PK Fire and the first hit, so PK Fire is only useful when Ganon is approaching with choke, or just running towards you. Ganon can also escape PK Fire using his Wizard's foot, bewary of this. Using Dash Attack isn't a good approach against Ganon, because of Wizard's foot, so using aerials near the ground is a better approach, PK Jump is somewhat effective too. Ganon's jab is quick and has decent range, but it only has one hit, and doesn't combo into much that isn't avoidable or easy to shield. Yo-yo also helps against most of Ganon's attacks on the ground because of it's charging hitbox, just don't become predictable because UpSmash and DSmash are easy for Ganon to punish. It's possibly even IMO.

Off stage, watch out for Ganon's Uair and Side-B. Uair has large range and can stage spike, and Side-B=suicide. Ganon's recovery is very easy Pillar spike, PK Flash (if he's covering from a afar), Yo-yo Spike, Ledge Whip, and just plain Dair. If Ness is using PK Thunder too close to stage (which is never a smart idea unless you lost your 2nd jump.) Then he will easily be KOed by a Dair at higher percents, sometimes a side-B if the Ganon is willing to be risky. Recovering near the ledge is hard against Ganon, because you can easily be spiked. Horizontal recovery is easy however. Ness' wins off-stage.

In the end, it's around 60-40 to 65-35 IMO.

Quoted myself, cause I'm too lazy to write it all again. ;P

Gaussis · Jan 4, 2009

PK, would it be ok if you put matchups with very little discussion on an undecided spot (DDD, Wario, Snake, don't know if they're more) for now? I don't think we can give accurate numbers if we just put them on a spot due to a few members. I also disagree with Wario being bad (due to frame data and range).

I'll give my thoughts on Ganon in a while.

Ref · Jan 4, 2009

I think it's even with Ganondorf.... He is heavy, high KO power and can gimp, he also has decent range, can DI out of PK fire well. He lacks aerial range though and can be gimped pretty well too...

Gaussis · Jan 4, 2009

I dunno about even. Ganon is screwed with spammable projectiles, especially if he can't beat them. PKT becomes an annoyance for Ganon, although he can take it out using Nair and Uair. The bad thing about that is that he lands with lag. Taking that opportunity, Ness can just use PKT again or if he's close enough, punish Ganon. To make things worse, Ness has his Fair which will keep Ganon away. Dair leads him into the air for PKT, which is again bad. Nair keeps him away also. If worse come to pass, Ness can throw him back out of range with his throws.

The good qualities Ganon has against Ness is that he can combo him with Flame Choke, which will come from any mistake Ness makes. Ftilt does a good job at stopping some of Ness's approaches, but not all. Also, Ganon has considerable range on the ground, so Ness can't use his ground range to compete against Ganon's.

I would say 60:40 Ness.

thesage · Jan 4, 2009

55-45 Ness, solely because of Ness' fair.

Uffe · Jan 5, 2009

I can't remember what page I posted on, but I believe I gave Gdorf a slight advantage or had it even. I've fought a few Gdorf's here and there and I have to say he's given me quite a tough time.

Brinzy · Jan 5, 2009

I also say it's even. Ness has better throws, projectiles, and fair while Ganon has more range, killing power, and strength.

_clinton · Jan 5, 2009

PKNintendo said:
He's found that what Wario does to Ness warrants an advantage for him.
Heavier, capable to gimp and better at killing, they're equal in the air but not anywhere else.

Just a summary. Uh... Ganondorf next.

Look _Clinton, I know it looks like im betraying you guys, but I know that this isn't a good matchup for Ness... At all.

The whole 10% difference in kill ranges didn't mean jack to you know did it? And what is wrong with Ness' ground game?

ColinJF · Jan 5, 2009

Ness has a pretty sizable advantage over Ganon because of pk thunder. Ganon has little to no defence against pk thunder and it completely wrecks him in the air because of poor aerial mobility.

For what it's worth I don't agree with a disadvantage to Wario either.

Ref · Jan 5, 2009

Ganon's aerials are too good on PK Thunder especially if they time. His hit boxes on them are fairly large.

He can also fall pretty fast so not too much juggling there...

ColinJF · Jan 5, 2009

His aerials are nothing special versus pk thunder, especially since they have lots of ending lag. It's not just about juggling: pk thunder does a lot of things to Ganon, such as forcing him to approach, or preventing him from recovering.

Ref · Jan 5, 2009

ColinJF said:
His aerials are nothing special versus pk thunder, especially since they have lots of ending lag. It's not just about juggling: pk thunder does a lot of things to Ganon, such as forcing him to approach, or preventing him from recovering.

True depending on how ganon DI's the the thunder... He can shield... PKT has worse ending lag I'm pretty sure... He's heavy and can fall pretty fast. PKT is bad to floaty, light and low aerial mobility weaknesses.

Mmac · Jan 5, 2009

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4383/matchupchartv3bt2.png

I updated the template to the design of my better Matchup Charts, and to the new Tier List

PKNintendo · Jan 5, 2009

Thanks alot Mmac!

PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

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