hahaha sonic players are still grasping at straws i see
COME ON STEP IT UP @ sonic mains
he's a bad character - if he isn't go win a major
COME ON STEP IT UP @ sonic mains
he's a bad character - if he isn't go win a major
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
- Status
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
The majority of his points were taken from a "win" he got from Ally, when in reality, Ally used him for ONE match in the entire tournament.
I'd be interested to see how Falcon would place in the rankings without that "win".
Violent-nin
Smash Ace
Hmm...so this is the new tier list huh.
Some people need to start winning major tournaments with Faclon.
Some people need to start winning major tournaments with Faclon.
Really?
Then it doesn't make much sense to me as how he would get the full points for the win on Ankoku's list.
But then again, unless every tournament with every single character entering playing at the highest level of play possible was occuring, only then would tournament results be 100% accurate. =/
plagueofpyro
Smash Rookie
Awesome first post, but C.Falcon's tounrey results are so skewed, it's not even funny when you look into it.
I know his results are far from great but he did win a tourney since the last tier list, which is more than can be said for some of the other lower tiers.
I know his results are far from great but he did win a tourney since the last tier list, which is more than can be said for some of the other lower tiers.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
But.... Sonic has teh sp33dz!!!!
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
Exactly lol.
Someone should probably PM Ankoku about it.
And this discussion should probably also be in the Character Rankings Thread.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Fix'd for more accuracy. Yet this post is very very awesome and even more siggable - too bad my sig space is all used up! Grrr.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
He shouldn't. lol
Okay. Let's say for the sake of argument Sonic is only placing well because he's doing well against characters as low as F tier. Why is he that low IN F tier? He's certainly outperforming the likes of Mario or Samus. He deserves to be above THEM. We aren't saying he's top tier. But if he's THAT bad he wouldn't be performing as well as he is even if tournaments were all F and G tiers.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Mario only beat Mario by 0.6.
(stupid popularity contest)
XD. But whatever im cool with that, Yoshi is to low for my tastes.
And any reasoning for Ness/Lucas being # 3. I don't care where you place them, they can be 1 for all I care. But why are they together, why why WHY!
(stupid popularity contest)
XD. But whatever im cool with that, Yoshi is to low for my tastes.
Wah! Mario that high??? Oi.
And any reasoning for Ness/Lucas being # 3. I don't care where you place them, they can be 1 for all I care. But why are they together, why why WHY!
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
He didn't say "not great". He said "skewed".
Skewed as in messed up, as in they shouldn't be taken seriously since they use inaccurate information.
And read either my post for supar seriuz explenashun:
Or kr3wman's for teh lurlz:
Either way, Falcon shouldn't be where he is in the rankings.
You touched upon exactly what I wanted someone to point out. Yes, other low tiers do not show up at large tournaments either. Therefore, they dont really have many good tournament results to go by either. Neither does Sonic. Thus you have to debate who is better. I'm simply pointing out why Sonic's tournament results can't be used to point at him being better than these other low tiers. I'm not saying we all have to agree he's worse than the others, I'm just answering the question of why his 'tournament results' did not help him much on this list.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
I disagree, I think mine gave off a more professional look.
Sonic is F for Flaming Steak
To the people who either keep arguing or feel like arguing about Sonic's placement:
Surprisingly enough to you people who are familiar with me, I may argue against Sonic going "mid-tier":
Millions of Sonic players? - the Myth and Reality of Success through Matchups
Like I mentioned earlier, some of those Sonics who placed in December did so in pretty much their first offline tournaments. These people were pretty much "wifi-players", and I myself pretty much did the same. I took first in my first two tournaments, one of which used SBR-ruleset, though it wasn't a monetary prize (30+man tourney, prize was 30$ giftcard to gamestop + Spore lol), but they were never was officially reported due to the nature of the tourneys. (I'm not sure if anyone wants to use that as a case for anything about wifi players lol, but I'll leave it at that).
But here's the thing:
People don't know the Sonic matchup.
We laugh at all the scrubwads who claim to outprioritize and outrange all of Sonic's moves in matchup discussions, when all you're talking about is spindash, after playing some guy who doesn't even know **** about playing Sonic. If we asked you how you did against Sonic's B-air, spaced U-air, or tilts, I'm sure you'd have nothing to say about those moves, because you most likely don't know about them as you haven't seen them. As such, noone bothers to learn the Sonic matchup, and if they don't play online, a large majority of these people never will, unless the tourneys are weekly and the Sonic main goes there often. And even if you play a Sonic player online, it'll be hard to get an idea of what moves are punishable with what, and even harder to get an idea of just how extensive Sonic's punishment and spacing game is - but at least you'll get a general idea of their move tendencies, like jumping aerials out of spindash, spin-cancelling, or 'finished' ("autocancelled") D-airs out of spring, just to name some low level moves.
There aren't millions, let alone tens (2 digit) of Sonic players in tournaments, and you'd be lucky to find more than 2 knowledgable Sonic main in a state, let alone in a tourney. When I won my first tourney, it was ezpz, except for HtH's Samus towards the end, since I didn't know the Samus matchup. When I won my second tourney, I either outclassed players, or they didn't know the matchup. The prospective winner for that tournament constantly talked about how I was "turning into a ball and [he didn't] know what [ I ] was going to do", since he didn't really know what I was doing with all the spin cancels. At the finals, the guy I played against told me to stop using Sonic, and I asked him, "why? he suuuuuuucks and you're using snaaaaaake", he retorted "**** I don't know how to play against Sonic".
But that's exactly it. Throw that "millions of Sonic players" BS out the window and look at it for what you have:
You have a competitively-unpopular character with various mobility, cancellable attacks, and feinting (fake-out) ability.
It can be very difficult to tell the difference between what portion of the "I don't know what you're doing" is player or character-based because of that.
The tournament placings?
Sonics won.
The end.
But as ROOOOY! stated earlier, about half of the Sonic mains who placed in tourneys only placed once.
Either this means that they've only been to one tourney, or people knew what to do next time they played. I haven't gone through the trouble of pinpointing who these Sonic mains were, nor their specific tournament history, but that in itself continues to hint towards the matchup issue.
They placed once, which means that they ravaged them with a character they didn't know to play against.
Did they return and fail to place next time? Was it just a one-shot tournament?
Also, that one tournament where there were like 3 Sonic mains? That brought a 'low-tier' version of the 'Falco points ****' that happened, when two Falcos placed high in a large tourney lol.
Moveset issues?
So it comes down to this:
How do people do against Sonic's tilts and spaced aerials?
How punishable IS Sonic, and to what extent can people punish him?
We may not really have an answer to that yet.
But the main issue I wanted to bring up is the D-throw thing that popped up in Tactical discussion not too long ago.
Alot of people take it as a joke, and thus don't know just what the extent of the damage is (and even though I know what its extent is, I won't spoil it for ya
), but I still get an alarming amount of June-style followups after D-throw.
---------------------------------------------
Have fun.
Also, Sonic mains, gtfo of here. I set a bomb in this post and it will explode when Haunter evolves.
To the people who either keep arguing or feel like arguing about Sonic's placement:
Surprisingly enough to you people who are familiar with me, I may argue against Sonic going "mid-tier":
Millions of Sonic players? - the Myth and Reality of Success through Matchups
Like I mentioned earlier, some of those Sonics who placed in December did so in pretty much their first offline tournaments. These people were pretty much "wifi-players", and I myself pretty much did the same. I took first in my first two tournaments, one of which used SBR-ruleset, though it wasn't a monetary prize (30+man tourney, prize was 30$ giftcard to gamestop + Spore lol), but they were never was officially reported due to the nature of the tourneys. (I'm not sure if anyone wants to use that as a case for anything about wifi players lol, but I'll leave it at that).
But here's the thing:
People don't know the Sonic matchup.
We laugh at all the scrubwads who claim to outprioritize and outrange all of Sonic's moves in matchup discussions, when all you're talking about is spindash, after playing some guy who doesn't even know **** about playing Sonic. If we asked you how you did against Sonic's B-air, spaced U-air, or tilts, I'm sure you'd have nothing to say about those moves, because you most likely don't know about them as you haven't seen them. As such, noone bothers to learn the Sonic matchup, and if they don't play online, a large majority of these people never will, unless the tourneys are weekly and the Sonic main goes there often. And even if you play a Sonic player online, it'll be hard to get an idea of what moves are punishable with what, and even harder to get an idea of just how extensive Sonic's punishment and spacing game is - but at least you'll get a general idea of their move tendencies, like jumping aerials out of spindash, spin-cancelling, or 'finished' ("autocancelled") D-airs out of spring, just to name some low level moves.
There aren't millions, let alone tens (2 digit) of Sonic players in tournaments, and you'd be lucky to find more than 2 knowledgable Sonic main in a state, let alone in a tourney. When I won my first tourney, it was ezpz, except for HtH's Samus towards the end, since I didn't know the Samus matchup. When I won my second tourney, I either outclassed players, or they didn't know the matchup. The prospective winner for that tournament constantly talked about how I was "turning into a ball and [he didn't] know what [ I ] was going to do", since he didn't really know what I was doing with all the spin cancels. At the finals, the guy I played against told me to stop using Sonic, and I asked him, "why? he suuuuuuucks and you're using snaaaaaake", he retorted "**** I don't know how to play against Sonic".
But that's exactly it. Throw that "millions of Sonic players" BS out the window and look at it for what you have:
You have a competitively-unpopular character with various mobility, cancellable attacks, and feinting (fake-out) ability.
It can be very difficult to tell the difference between what portion of the "I don't know what you're doing" is player or character-based because of that.
The tournament placings?
Sonics won.
The end.
But as ROOOOY! stated earlier, about half of the Sonic mains who placed in tourneys only placed once.
Either this means that they've only been to one tourney, or people knew what to do next time they played. I haven't gone through the trouble of pinpointing who these Sonic mains were, nor their specific tournament history, but that in itself continues to hint towards the matchup issue.
They placed once, which means that they ravaged them with a character they didn't know to play against.
Did they return and fail to place next time? Was it just a one-shot tournament?
Also, that one tournament where there were like 3 Sonic mains? That brought a 'low-tier' version of the 'Falco points ****' that happened, when two Falcos placed high in a large tourney lol.
Moveset issues?
So it comes down to this:
How do people do against Sonic's tilts and spaced aerials?
How punishable IS Sonic, and to what extent can people punish him?
We may not really have an answer to that yet.
But the main issue I wanted to bring up is the D-throw thing that popped up in Tactical discussion not too long ago.
Alot of people take it as a joke, and thus don't know just what the extent of the damage is (and even though I know what its extent is, I won't spoil it for ya
), but I still get an alarming amount of June-style followups after D-throw.---------------------------------------------
Have fun.
Also, Sonic mains, gtfo of here. I set a bomb in this post and it will explode when Haunter evolves.
I was surprised after how much evidence the yoshi mainers brought to the board he didn't raise at all, and instead dropped.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Sonic mains have nothing to gripe about or shouldn't have much. I <3 the Sonic boards though. Yoshi and Jigglypuff boards on the other hand........
I never stated any opinion on the tier list. I don't think it's hot **** either; but I do know that your reasons for thinking it sucks are ludicrous.
bigman40
Smash Master
Should've been here earlier if you wanted to hear about that.
You don't have to have a high post count to realize that you've added absolutely nothing of worth to this thread. All you do is post ridiculous one-liners about how the tier list sucks without anything to actually back it up.
If you're going to say the tier list sucks, that's perfectly fine. But at least use good arguments. You make the rest of us look bad.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
Yeah Fox can be taken out way too easily by too many characters.
Jigglymaster
Smash Hero
How did Jigglypuff move DOWN?
I just don't understand anymore. Even before Jiggs should have been moved up on the tier list.
I just don't understand anymore. Even before Jiggs should have been moved up on the tier list.
Snowstalker
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2008
- Messages
- 813
I took a tier list I made recently, touched it up, and now I'm showing my opinion on the tier list.
GOD:
Meta Knight
TOP:
Snake
Falco
Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede
Marth
Diddy Kong
HIGH:
R.O.B
Wario
Olimar
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Peach
Pit
Wolf
MIDDLE:
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Zelda
Sheik
Bowser
Fox
Sonic
Yoshi
Ness
LOW:
Ike
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Lucas
Link
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
GOD:
Meta Knight
TOP:
Snake
Falco
Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede
Marth
Diddy Kong
HIGH:
R.O.B
Wario
Olimar
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Peach
Pit
Wolf
MIDDLE:
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Zelda
Sheik
Bowser
Fox
Sonic
Yoshi
Ness
LOW:
Ike
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Lucas
Link
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Posting anything here is almost pointless at the rate it's going.
We won't actually be able to properly discuss this tier list til everybody is finished putting in their two cents.
I'm not a fan of the way the list turned out, but it also accurately displays the voting results. So I support it.
We won't actually be able to properly discuss this tier list til everybody is finished putting in their two cents.
I'm not a fan of the way the list turned out, but it also accurately displays the voting results. So I support it.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
Nah. He's hot **** cause he posts in red. lol
tehbestevar
Smash Rookie
Alright Ike isnt low, but I dont think MK and Snake are godly to the point of having their own tiers MK is my secondary so i get his whole potential thing he is starting to turn into Fox from Melee
petre
Smash Lord
umm, correct me if im wrong, but havent the tier lists for melee/brawl ALWAYS been determined (in the end) by a vote in the SBR? i was under the impression this is always how they did it. since some people wont change their opinions, you just end up with the middle ground.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Conker: Is it safe I wonder?......I took a tier list I made recently, touched it up, and now I'm showing my opinion on the tier list.
GOD:
Meta Knight
TOP:
Snake
Falco
Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede
Marth
Diddy Kong
HIGH:
R.O.B
Wario
Olimar
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Peach
Wolf
MIDDLE:
Toon Link
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Zelda
Luigi
Fox
Sonic
Sheik
Bowser
Yoshi
Ness
LOW:
Ike
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Lucas
Link
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Let's find out.
But seriously good list. Lucas is FINALLY placed properly, and Yoshi is above Ness, Mario and Ike like he should be.
Though Jiggly below captain falcon?
This is blasphemy!
Vorguen
Smash Champion
Yeah the tier list doesn't actually change how good or bad a character is so just suck it up and keep playing the game and going to tourneys with whoever makes you sleep best at night. rofl.
Kinzer
Mammy
Why don't you go play May-lay Gimpy, what are you doing up here making me feel bad for playing barlw?! D:
1 person decided to use him for one match... and won... I bet if Falcon wasn't sharing that spot with Snake, we would've been somewhere near last in the CR thread.
It won't be accurate, until I see something with "Steak" in it.
I wouldn't go as far to say as it is bad, but it does have its problems.
You're going to keep hearing about us, until people put him in the right place, and say that he is a sucky character for the right reasons, not the same @#$% that has been parroted by Overswarm and the likes of the false SBR. Sadly, this day doesn't seem to be coming anytime soon.
Time to go read Tenki's post that might be full of win for sure.
Negi-Kun
Smash Lord
I agree with everything except Captain Falcon still being the lowest. Jiggs deserves that spot imo.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Crap forgot that. Jiggs>>>>>>>CF.
I like Jesiah's list, but some of it was a bit off. I mean Ness at the same spot as Lucas. I don't care where's he's at but anywhere but where Lucas hangs. And Mario's a bit high. ><
I mean's underrated but a 9? Rest is good.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
Jiggly > Captain Fail.
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
Mid tier is messed up.
Sonic could rank bottom of mid tier but yoshi can't. Ness definitely cant seeing his results tourney wise and taking other things into account. Shiek below bowser and maybe fox.
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Bowser King
risemix
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2008
- Messages
- 88
That's exactly why you shouldn't support it.
And guy with red text: the list was derived via opinions from a bunch of guys who got together and made lists. A list. And then the lists were averaged, and we have a tier list. That is a horrible process.
To get a real tier list, you'd need to have hundreds of controlled tournaments and check their results weighted against the number of people who mained each character at those tournaments. That's the only way to get an accurate list. Any other way is wrong. Just having some cool dudes (or even good players) on a message board vote for who they think is a good character is far and away the worst possible idea, and if you don't know why I don't know what to say to you.
Even then, there would be no way to accurately see which character is potentially the best, it would merely be a snapshot of a moment in time. It would answer the question of "What characters currently place very well?" That's all it does. That's all a tier list ever does. My problem is that:
1. This isn't even a properly derived tier list and
2. It's being advertised as a showing of potential for the various characters in this game, which is horribly horribly flawed.
But whatever, keep supporting fail because you don't like the way I argue.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
But those are 4 weeks worth of results. I mean give him some time, I can see him there with updated results.Mid tier is messed up.
Sonic could rank bottom of mid tier but yoshi can't. Ness definitely cant seeing his results tourney wise and taking other things into account. Shiek below bowser and maybe fox.
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Vorguen
Smash Champion
- Status