The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[Kinzer]

Oh @#$%, Tenki set up da bomb, and Haunter might evolve any minute now, must evacuate the premises right now!

Before I leave though, I really would like somebody to answer me as to how the likes of Armor-Suit Samus is a better character than Sonic... no matter how you look at the two in comparison... well yeah... Did Anthuhs have a vote in there?

Eh IDC, everybody hates Sonic, and nobody wants to take the time to understand him fully except the people who I don't know how they did it, but they got past the bias, and I am still ranting...

Gotta get out of here...

 

[Red Arremer]

Uh, the entire process used to derive this list is scientifically flawed

That's what democracy is all about.

 

[tehbestevar]

Conker: Is it safe I wonder?......
Let's find out.


But seriously good list. Lucas is FINALLY placed properly, and Yoshi is above Ness, Mario and Ike like he should be.

Above Ness and especially Mario(who actually should be good but is not) maybe but Yoshi shouldnt be above Ike

 

[ROOOOY!]

I think Tenki just killed everyone here with logic.

And Edreeses, I see your point perfectly clearly, that's pretty much the case. You'd just think that with Sonic having such exaggerated results compared to the rest of low tier who are supposedly better then him, they'd have a little influence. He's been consistantly placing highly, with all of the high mid/low high characters, and you can't put all that evidence down to assuming that the Sonic's are only placing in scrubfest tournies.

Us Sonic's should really pull out of here. No matter how much legitimate argument we display, it's not going to change anybody's minds. Sonic's going to have to be placing top 5 in Ankoku's rankings chart til people start caring.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

But those are 4 weeks worth of results. I mean give him some time, I can see him there with updated results.

But he's been dropping. It would take a sudden spike of talented Nesses to up his rankings. He's been in E for quite a while.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So what if Sonic places well in some tournaments? Those tournaments are probably garbage. If all we had to go on was tournament results, than Sonic could very well be S-tier if every tournament was garbage and had Sonics placing high in each one.

Then we are lucky that this is not the case.
Again as I stated earlier, it isn't as if you have random Sonic mainers placing in the tournaments. You have sonic mains who consistently place well. X being the most consistent in his placing.
So no, it isn't that the tournaments are garbage otherwise, we could say something similar for the characters whom he shares his ranking.

The reason tier lists aren't completely contrived using tournament results is because tournament results only help the SBR get a vague idea of how well characters are faring. It's not an objective standard on how good a character actually is.

Don't misunderstand, I am not saying the tournament results are the only factor.I am saying that if Sonic was indeed such a terrible character he should not be placing half as well as he does currently. Considering he has managed to remain in the twenties in spite of being such a poor character, the results should be looked into with greater depth.

Especially considering we have seen Sonic mains do well in larger tournaments (where most of his points come from).

There are also other factors but I want to discuss tournament results currently.

Saying he should be higher when his placement results and common sense clearly don't reflect that is ludicrous.

Don't say silly things.
Common sense?
Really? The most common sense about Sonic is that his metagame revolves around spamming his down B.
What is ludicrous is you have a character like Bowser who places very low and is just now showing improvement, anove a character like Sonic, who has been placing higher than bowser, consistently and also showing improvement.

It is extremely inconsistent.

People tierwhoring is usually a good indication that the character is good. It's not really the case with Sonic.

Sonic can have a million mains. It doesn't matter one bit unless he's placing consistently well at good tournaments.

Except that your demands are not being met by several characters whom Sonic places better than.
At the larger tournaments Sonic placed better than a number of the characters who are placed above him.
meanwhile characters who placed worse are higher above him.

It can't only be that his tournament results are not good enough ebcause there are characters higher who do worse.

by no means am I saying Sonic is good. In fact I think he should indeed be placed in low tier. However, I do not agree with the fact that he is being placed that low especially when you have characters whose metagames have not evolved as much nor improved in their tournament results.

 

[PKNintendo]

But he's been dropping. It would take a sudden spike of talented Nesses to up his rankings. He's been in E for quite a while.

If you add up the whole year he's a pure bread D. ><

 

[Bowser King]

But those are 4 weeks worth of results. I mean give him some time, I can see him there with updated results.

True that it's only 4 weeks but Ness hasn't been ranking good since the beginning of brawls release. Also considering his other disadvantages (chaingrab being a pretty big one) I still think Ness deserves high low tier (or f rank).

-Bowser King

 

[Barge]

That's exactly why you shouldn't support it.

And guy with red text: the list was derived via opinions from a bunch of guys who got together and made lists. A list. And then the lists were averaged, and we have a tier list. That is a horrible process.

The Sbr is filled with some of the most intelligent posters and smashers in the forum. They're not idiots, if anything only stubborn. They take months going over and reviewing data, and even longer admitting members into the Back room.

To get a real tier list, you'd need to have hundreds of controlled tournaments and check their results weighted against the number of people who mained each character at those tournaments. That's the only way to get an accurate list. Any other way is wrong. Just having some cool dudes (or even good players) on a message board vote for who they think is a good character is far and away the worst possible idea, and if you don't know why I don't know what to say to you.

That is clearly impossible and even if it was it'd be a real pain in the ***. A tier list is not a 100% accurate, this is totally right, your opinions mean nothing. This is only version 2 if I might add. The Melee tier list has only recently been completed after 7-8 years of competive play. This is to only get a decent understand of a characters potential, and as you can tell, this isn't even close to being completed.

Even then, there would be no way to accurately see which character is potentially the best, it would merely be a snapshot of a moment in time. It would answer the question of "What characters currently place very well?" That's all it does. That's all a tier list ever does. My problem is that:

1. This isn't even a properly derived tier list and
2. It's being advertised as a showing of potential for the various characters in this game, which is horribly horribly flawed.

They've done the best they could with the information they've gotten. I'll admit theres little representatives in the SBR for the low tiers. So of course there would be biased, there's biased in every single thing in the world. Nothing is perfect and nothing can be 100% correct.

As I stated before this isn't even close to being completed.


But whatever, keep supporting fail because you don't like the way I argue.[/QUOTE]
k

 

[Ref]

True that it's only 4 weeks but Ness hasn't been ranking good since the beginning of brawls release. Also considering his other disadvantages (chaingrab being a pretty big one) I still think Ness deserves high low tier (or f rank).

-Bowser King

What chain grab? Oh yeah Charizard's and sonics.

Ness is high mid or just high.

 

[RDK]

Then we are lucky that this is not the case.
Again as I stated earlier, it isn't as if you have random Sonic mainers placing in the tournaments. You have sonic mains who consistently place well. X being the most consistent in his placing.
So no, it isn't that the tournaments are garbage otherwise, we could say something similar for the characters whom he shares his ranking.

Don't misunderstand, I am not saying the tournament results are the only factor.I am saying that if Sonic was indeed such a terrible character he should not be placing half as well as he does currently. Considering he has managed to remain in the twenties in spite of being such a poor character, the results should be looked into with greater depth.

Especially considering we have seen Sonic mains do well in larger tournaments (where most of his points come from).

There are also other factors but I want to discuss tournament results currently.

Don't say silly things.
Common sense?
Really? The most common sense about Sonic is that his metagame revolves around spamming his down B.
What is ludicrous is you have a character like Bowser who places very low and is just now showing improvement, anove a character like Sonic, who has been placing higher than bowser, consistently and also showing improvement.

Sonic can have a million mains. It doesn't matter one bit unless he's placing consistently well at good tournaments.

Except that your demands are not being met by several characters whom Sonic places better than.
At the larger tournaments Sonic placed better than a number of the characters who are placed above him.
meanwhile characters who placed worse are higher above him.

It can't only be that his tournament results are not good enough ebcause there are characters higher who do worse.

This all comes back to my point about tier lists not being made using solely tournament results. Other things factor in; probably things like character matchups, or whether or not the character just plain sucks.

The SBR and high-ranking players' opinions play a large part in the tier list too. It's not just tournament results, or Sonic very well might have placed higher. Apparently good players think he sucks more than Bowser, which I don't disagree with.

 

[-Mars-]

Oh @#$%, Tenki set up da bomb, and Haunter might evolve any minute now, must evacuate the premises right now!

Before I leave though, I really would like somebody to answer me as to how the likes of Armor-Suit Samus is a better character than Sonic... no matter how you look at the two in comparison... well yeah... Did Anthuhs have a vote in there?

Eh IDC, everybody hates Sonic, and nobody wants to take the time to understand him fully except the people who I don't know how they did it, but they got past the bias, and I am still ranting...

Gotta get out of here...

Sonic has to work twice as hard to win matches as other characters that are above him have too.

Does he have the tools to win? Yes, but when it comes down to it...he doesn't have better tools than most characters.

A character that is built around baiting and punishing(i.e. Fox) is never going to be considered more than one of the worst characters.

He really has no special glitch with Brawls physics or move that sets him apart. Even with lower characters like Sheik, Samus, PT, Fox........they all have something about them that is outstanding.

Sheik-Ftilt

Samus-Zair

PT- Ivy and Charizard each have an overpowered move and Squirtle has his dthrow

Fox-Usmash.

That's really why Sonic is never given credit. Sure, he can be played very well and his moveset does allow for a lot of mindgaming and baiting purposes.....but he has to work harder. Simple as that.

 

[PKNintendo]

True that it's only 4 weeks but Ness hasn't been ranking good since the beginning of brawls release. Also considering his other disadvantages (chaingrab being a pretty big one) I still think Ness deserves high low tier (or f rank).

-Bowser King

By who? The chaingrab itself is a vague term. If you said, abusable grab release animation then BINGO!

Grab release animation rapping is so annoying it's ridiculous. And the lack of people's knowledge ticks me off about it.

I still think Ness deserves high low tier

Umm thanks?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

He's been consistantly placing highly, with all of the high mid/low high characters, and you can't put all that evidence down to assuming that the Sonic's are only placing in scrubfest tournies.

But even if you ARE assuming he's only wrecking the worst in the game that means he has THAT much going for him. He IS killing characters like Mario and Samus. Degrading everything Sonic's have achieved, saying he'll never place in tourneys with decent players like Hylian regardless of the fact that he IS. Even taking ALL of that away he STILL is outperforming several characters above him. What are Mario, Lucas, Ness, Samus and even Sheik, Ike and the rest of E tier doing that Sonic ISN'T?


I just don't get it.

 

[Browny]

shadowlink, stop making the fatal assumption that people are smart. Your big words and logic are lost on sbrb members

AiB is looking good right about now... lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

If it's player dependent then it's not the character. He has just as good "mindgames" as anyone else, seeing as how it's 100% who's playing him rather than who's being played.

He means that Sonic's capabilities are geared for mindgames. That hi ability to perform mindgames is better than others or geared more for it which is why he looks bad on paper but does better in practice.


@Dj: I am quite sure rdk is smart.

 

[.Marik]

Yoshi went... down. :\

*Slit slit*

Argh, the injustice. =\

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

If you add up the whole year he's a pure bread D. ><

You mean Purebred. XD

Ness was in like C and he's been suddenly declining. I guess people just learned to fight him better. I actually got pretty ****ed up by a good Ness till I learned to fight him.

 

[Bowser King]

By who? The chaingrab itself is a vague term. If you said, abusable grab release animation then BINGO!

Grab release animation rapping is so annoying it's ridiculous. And the lack of people's knowledge ticks me off about it.

Yeah, sorry

I meant to say that but I suddenly pictured lucas and....

Maybe with better results, he could move into E rank.

-Bowser King

 

[RDK]

shadowlink, stop making the fatal assumption that people are smart. Your big words and logic are lost on sbrb members

AiB is looking good right about now... lol

The fact that you have high regard for any discussion that goes on at AiB sheds light on your lack of ability to make the claim that I'm not smart.

You're pretty high also on the list of people who contribute nothing to this thread except more pissing and moaning about how bad the tier list is. Get off your high horse and stop acting like you say something profound every time you post. You don't.

 

[Kinzer]

shadowlink, stop making the fatal assumption that people are smart.

AiB is looking good right about now... lol

AiB is dead... I don't even participate in the ladder anymore because I am so used to the instant reaction of offline tourneys... The only thing they have over us, is that their moderation is loose... probably because it's more like a MySpace for smash, and SWF is just... I guess you could call it the bible (not sure what else to say).

Oh that reminds me, has anybody bothered to post this over to our cousins at AiB? The GameFAQs prank was awesome, though...

Oh BTW Sonic has Spin-charge... it's awesome! :D

 

[RDK]

AiB is dead... I don't even participate in the ladder anymore because I am so used to the instant reaction of offline tourneys... The only thing they have over us, is that their moderation is loose... probably because it's more like a MySpace for smash, and SWF is just... I guess you could call it the bible (not sure what else to say).

Actually, their modding is fairly draconian. Just a week ago, a bunch of us went over there and made a thread about how the D3 ban in NY was unwarranted, and it got closed after only 10 pages.

I guess they're not used to the intelligent discussion. It frightens them.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This all comes back to my point about tier lists not being made using solely tournament results. Other things factor in; probably things like character matchups, or whether or not the character just plain sucks.

The SBR and high-ranking players' opinions play a large part in the tier list too. It's not just tournament results, or Sonic very well might have placed higher. Apparently good players think he sucks more than Bowser, which I don't disagree with.

The main issue being that opinions being given do not match the results being displayed.
Sonic has placed 11 times.
This is the lowest amount of the characters in the B ranking. Which means he is placing in larger tournaments in spite of placing less often.
Considering that as well s the fact that his placement has been consistent then his viability as a character is better than being accredited.

great m2k and OS feel Bowser is better than Sonic, thats great but, why does Sonic have to show better results in order to go higher, but Bowser does not?
Again, why is it that several characters who are doing worse than Sonic get placed higher than him, and yet it is only Sonic that has to start placing consistently in order to move up?

it is incredibly inconsistent and the method by which the tierlist was contrived this time reflects this.

 

[Vorguen]

The fact that you have high regard for any discussion that goes on at AiB sheds light on your lack of ability to make the claim that I'm not smart.

SAT score of at least 2,000 or it didn't happen.

 

[AOB]

That's exactly why you shouldn't support it.

And guy with red text: the list was derived via opinions from a bunch of guys who got together and made lists. A list. And then the lists were averaged, and we have a tier list. That is a horrible process.

To get a real tier list, you'd need to have hundreds of controlled tournaments and check their results weighted against the number of people who mained each character at those tournaments. That's the only way to get an accurate list. Any other way is wrong. Just having some cool dudes (or even good players) on a message board vote for who they think is a good character is far and away the worst possible idea, and if you don't know why I don't know what to say to you.

Even then, there would be no way to accurately see which character is potentially the best, it would merely be a snapshot of a moment in time. It would answer the question of "What characters currently place very well?" That's all it does. That's all a tier list ever does. My problem is that:

1. This isn't even a properly derived tier list and
2. It's being advertised as a showing of potential for the various characters in this game, which is horribly horribly flawed.

But whatever, keep supporting fail because you don't like the way I argue.

Read Barge's post.

There's no purely, perfectly objective way to determine the character rankings. Even your (fanciful) example isn't perfect. And because we could continue to discuss each character endlessly without agreeing on rankings, voting (publicly, I might add) is the only practical way to do it.

We don't believe this list is perfect. We unabashedly admit that it IS an average of the (informed) opinions of a collection of smart and talented members, nothing more. Anyone is free to like it, dislike it, criticize it, worship it, rip it to shreds, whatever. Now how about giving us a little more credit?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Actually, their modding is fairly draconian. Just a week ago, a bunch of us went over there and made a thread about how the D3 ban in NY was unwarranted, and it got closed after only 10 pages.

I guess they're not used to the intelligent discussion. It frightens them.

AM NOT!

That's just Conda. lol

 

[Chis]

For the votes, we had members place the characters in groups from 1 to 15 (15 being the highest) and took the average score for each character. The split was decided by looking at the gaps.


Therefore this list isn't exempt from character bias or misconceptions.

the sonic boards are the running joke of the SBR/ Staffer Shack.

the sonic boards are the running joke of the SBR/ Staffer Shack.

It's a red herring XD


Sonic is mostly limited by his low priority. MK's d-tilt in place > everything Sonic has.

I beat Anther's Sonic, after being down a stock, because OS was standing right there and said "dastrn: don't move and hit down tilt."

It worked. Sonic is garbage.

Past that, Sonic is pretty bad. Doesn't his dash attack go over Diddy Bananas, without picking them up. I think Prime told me that once.

Sonic definitely is a top tier character with items on. He gets the items, they work for him, and they solve his KO problem.

What does Mr. 3000 and the like do with him that is different? From what I've seen, all the "good" Sonic players do is no different than the "bad" Sonic players... the good sonic players just do it better and call their opponent on more.

It seems Sonic's entire game is based around punishment.

I think the best way to fight sonic is to throw out attacks as quickly as possible and to pretend his attacks don't exist. It works alarmingly well.

I'm sorry but I really do not care about MK vs Sonic matchup, I didn't know Sonic counted as tourney-viable

so... are people seriously implying that sonic isn't horrible or what

the fundamentals of his overall character are just dreadful in every respect

o.O

???

This list, overall, is a fairly good list. There are a few blatant mistakes that no amount of convincing could have fixed (like Captain Falcon being the worst still and Sonic being so low). And I definitely feel like we should/could have combined B/C tier into one, but I think this list does its job and otherwise is a good representation of the current metagame.

???

 

[Vorguen]

All Sonic mains need to stop worrying... there will be more tier lists.

And even so, it isn't like a tier list is going to start drastically improving or (un-improving?) a specific character.

 

[Pierce7d]

First of all, djbrowny, I respect you and your posts normally are well argumented and intelligent.

But... this doesn't really sign the impression I've got from you. If you think the SBRB members are as dumb as high school kids for whatever reason, go ahead and do so, but it doesn't speak for your debating skills and your intelligence if you go out and attack them with childish insults like that.

The reason and liability of everything is debatable, but if you let yourself down to that level, you're not better than those morons posting porn pictures to make people upset.

Y'know what they're called? Fine. Not going to feed you anymore, then.



Bias is EVERYWHERE. No matter where you look at. The end.

This post is win. I agree completely with everything said in it.

my character isn't high enough and am thus furious and think this list is fail

amidoinitrite

I loled

After seeing what Zero Suit Samus is capable of it's hard to believe this list is anywhere near legit, sorry.

I mean, she's no MK, but Snakeee, Claw, and others can hang with the big boys with no problem. Top of D Tier? Try again.

You have to be patient. Look at ZSSs tremendous jump from last list. If she continues this trend of placing, then she'll continue to rise. We can't just say, "Oh let's look at these two ZSS players win tourneys, even though others place last, and put ZSS on the top of the list." Give it time.

Rabble rabble rabble new tier list rabble rabble. Give it a rest. I hate how so many people think that the tier lists are based off of how "good" a character is. It's based off of tournament results. You cannot control where your character is going to be (for the most part). And seriously, who cares? Even if Marth went lower than Falcon, I really don't think that would stop me from maining him. If you're better than a player, then any matchup good or bad to your character can be won. This should just be showing you how these characters place in tournaments. It's not meant to tell you which characters suck and which don't, it's just showing you where they stand in tournament play, and perhaps even saying that people just don't use that certain character much in tournaments. This thread is not meant to be World War III because your character isn't higher on the list.

QFT

olimar should be much higher

Same as what I said about ZSS. Olimar saw a tremendous jump because he came outta nowhere and has been doing well lately while no one knows how to fight him. Give it time, and if he CONTINUES his success, he'll continue to rise.

Awesome. *Takes a seat on the couch, opens a can of Coke, sets up a footrest, and proceeds to enjoy the thread*

"Hope you don't mind if I join you guys. I brought lemonade!!!"

 

[Cheezey]

Disappointed with Luigi's location...I think he has a lot of potential, especially with all of his ISJR.

 

[qerkdtx]

yay ganny's not last!

 

[Vorguen]

yay ganny's not last!

I still LOL'd when Ganondorf was second to last only to his most similiar character, Captain Fail.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I didn't even see that Panda post. Does this mean he's coming around a little? =3

I'm just trying to understand placements. I can't see any reason for some placements other than bias.

 

[Browny]

The fact that you have high regard for any discussion that goes on at AiB sheds light on your lack of ability to make the claim that I'm not smart.

You're pretty high also on the list of people who contribute nothing to this thread except more pissing and moaning about how bad the tier list is.

it was sarcasm... AiB is a joke and i know it.

I dont have a problem with the tier list, like I said i wouldnt put sonic much higher anyway I agree with it pretty much entirely except for snake being in his own tier and sonic should be mid/high in F rank. My problem is the counter-arguments provided by sbrb members. They cant provide a shred of evidence behind any of thier claims, and STILL continue to assume things (Lol sonic is easy, just outprioritise him) debunked months ago. For people who claim to be the most knowledgeable about brawl they sure dont act like it, insulting everyone else who takes this game seriously

I wasnt referring to you in any of what I meant.

 

[NJzFinest]

my Character Isn't High Enough And Am Thus Furious And Think This List Is Fail

Amidoinitrite

< 3




Yeah, yum, I don't think enough good players are using bad characters to shed there potential.

The only one I can think of is SilentSpectre, and he did good with CFalcon. Not saying CFalcon should be a good character or what not, just saying, the middle and lower tiers can be mixed around a bit.

 

[Red Arremer]

yay ganny's not last!

He's at least better than the guy he's ripping off!

 

[RDK]

I wasnt referring to you in any of what I meant.

Misunderstanding, then.

I didn't even see that Panda post. Does this mean he's coming around a little? =3

I'm just trying to understand placements. I can't see any reason for some placements other than bias.

Odd; what I understood from his post was that he thinks Sonic should be higher and for some reason CF isn't the worst.

Coming around? Lol, he has a long way to go.

 

[Kinzer]

Chis, do you have those quotes archieved or something? Like seriously... Even if some of those quotes are like months old... I would beat $5 that one of them has the same mindset to this day, or another SBR member has been swayed by another one of those fallacies.

It's sad, nobody takes the time to fully analyze Sonic for what he really is.

 

[SmashChu]

All Sonic mains need to stop worrying... there will be more tier lists.

And even so, it isn't like a tier list is going to start drastically improving or (un-improving?) a specific character.

Truthfully, does it really matter? Tier list are only suggestion. If you play Captain Falcon really well and prove he is not the worse, it may not change the tier list.

It's all hypothetical. Take it or leave. Or just ignore it.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Odd; what I understood from his post was that he thinks Sonic should be higher and for some reason CF isn't the worst.

Coming around? Lol, he has a long way to go.

Yeah but at the start of Brawl he said Sonic was probably worst, then he made a tier list where Sonic was 4th. Now he's saying that 7th from the bottom is too low. Now that I think about it he had Sonic at the 10th from the bottom on his personal tier list which is much better IMO. Just sayin' XD And he said Sonic so low. That sounds like he'd raise him quite a bit. I think that's neat. He also started playing him for fun. Who knows? Maybe he'll take to the little blue guy. It'd be nice to have solid representation/ better understanding of him as a character in the midwest other than Anther.