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Im sorry but frame data and range are useless.
Does it really matter?
I am hurt
Sorry, it's not useless but I mean...
To be fair its not like Sheik wants to be hit by things like Ness' dair...I mean she isn't Fox style falling but its not like she'll break free without having a little bit of extra damage as well...plus I'm pretty sure Ness' Dair breaks through almost everything Sheik has...
Needles are more anti ground actually...not anti air...so while they do make Ness come close...it's not that bad...it isn't like what Link and Tink can do with a boomerang (anti air) or bomb (mind games with close range anti ground really) also Ness doesn't mind mid range...what I'm saying is...Ness has to be the one to come close but Sheik has to finish it off...
Fun fact about Ness' 2nd jump and air movement...horizontally it actually has more range then Sheik's full horizontal recovery range...so do you think they are even here or what?
Ness also lives longer then Sheik does by a bit...but I never though Sheik was lacking in kill power anyway...
I don't see why Ness's dair is going to break through all of her moves. They should be trading at least.
That distance that you give Sheik is enough so that she can pretty much get past anything Ness is trying to do to defend himself. She isn't really lacking in approach at all. The needles do enough to bring Ness close. Even if she's approaching, Ness can't exactly reliably stop her. Fair is about the only thing that'll completely keep her at bay. Anything else will trade. Other aerials can help as well, but that's more or less evading Sheik and hitting her, something that Ness can do to anyone.
There will never be a time where they'll be doing this at the same time. If we're talking about who gets back to the stage more reliably than who, I'm going to say that Sheik does. It's too easy to deal with. If I really, really want to kill a Ness off, I can just wait near the end of his midair jump and aerial him, or I can just throw needles at him. Even if he airdodges at the last minute, he's now going to be airdodging while falling... setting himself up perfectly to have his PKT eaten. He won't grab the ledge, either, because he's airdodging.
Ness' Dair happens to have DJed hitboxes for one thing...
Depending on %, yes it is effective...sort of like Ness' tricks
How well off is she at running away?
Fair is the bomb for the whole "keep away" of course...Nair is still of course the "get off me" attack for when they do get too close IMO...
How is a retreating Fair not a good guard?
I never said they would be recovering at the same time...I said Ness' horizontal range is enough to beat Sheik's without using the main recovery move...
One of my issues with playing as Ness that I've been trying to work on is making full use of my range that I have...what I'm saying is...Ness has a ton of range for his recovery...yet I wonder how much of it actually gets taken advantage of?
This is the thing I'm trying to work on...proper use of "thunder drops"...
The projectile for screwing up his recovery is only great because of the whole come in low and aim high for when dealing with Ness' recovery...
I'm 99.99% positive that they have the same vertical range actually...
Have a nice day
Really? It must not be that disjointed, because Ness's utilt, Zelda's Usmash, and a few other disjointed attacks always outprioritize Ness's dair. I've overridden his dair with Sheik's uair myself...
All he has are 2-3 hit combos from a low % and whatever else you guys work on behind the board; so far, I only know of the uair/dair -> PKT2 thing. That's really all he has, and the latter, from what I can tell, isn't 100% reliable, but if you guys say it is, then fine. It's still an extremely small margin.
Great.
Ness hitting Sheik's shield more than twice is not likely to happen. She can just nair him as soon as he touches her shield with anything that isn't fair. Besides, why is being able to jump around and mash aerials an innate advantage for Ness? It isn't.
Because Sheik can reliably punish this with needles or a dash attack. She's fast. When your best defensive options can be reliably punished based off of reaction, you're in trouble.
Ok, but why does this matter? In fact, even this is overrated.
Not that much because he can easily be intercepted.
Ok, so he can jump backwards. Yay.
Ok, so they jump the same height.
Its disjointed enough to hit characters like the Ice Climbers from one platforms distance on BF...I'll show you a picture if you need it...
Dude, Dair by itself sets up for true combos at very low %…
Good…just wondering because Ness is pretty good at punishing those that run away from him in the air (PK Thunder)
How is she going to nair him when he is rising?
I’m pretty sure Ness’ short hop jumps over a needle…
Ness likes to recover from below…but when talking about Sheik…I question the use of recovery from below…
That is my point about his recovery…Ness players have been setting them selves up for being gimped when they still have options…
Actually depending on how you use your thunder you can avoid landing lag to a point…
My point of talking about Thunder is to aim the tail into the person’s rope…not the person themselves…I’m talking about stage spiking…and still stuff like the yo yo does prevent someone from jumping off the ledge…unless they enjoy risking a stage spike…
Meh…speed wise for moves they don’t seem to be that far off from being even…I mean Sheik still wins of course…but still they are close to being even…
That's not disjointed enough to save him from not trading hits. In fact, that's more or less his leg going down far... with a hurtbox.
You're telling me Sheik can't airdodge after the first dair? It doesn't register as a true combo in Training.
PK Thunder? So Sheik is moving away from you, you notice, and then you PKT. By the time the move comes out, Sheik is probably already on the ground and dashing at you or throwing a needle to stop you. Nobody is going to assume that Sheik is so far away from Ness that she can't punish him for this.
Rising bair/uair from Ness means nothing if he hits her shield, because she jumps high enough to reach him, always. He can rise all he wants, but a FH'd nair (Frame 2 attack) can STILL hit him. He can't beat on her shield that much.
He's going to land from a retreating fair. The moment he hits the ground, he's getting hit. He's probably NOT hitting Sheik with it because the whole point to a retreating aerial is to protect your character, but if someone has a fast projectile (Sheik), then it's not even completely safe.
Sheik isn't even limited! She'll have both of her jumps because she's on stage. Her Chain has a long sweetspot range and she can still Up B for about that distance. Ness can't float out there forever, and he's so easily read when off-stage that Sheik shouldn't be trying to jump off immediately to take him out; instead, she should wait a little bit and then go out and respond. Ness cannot safely deal with her. She can go too far from the stage and make it back for Ness to be safe.
I think that, overall, they do a good job at minimizing the chances of Ness being gimped or put into a bad position. His recovery is still mediocre no matter how you slice it.
That also depends on positioning and what your edgeguarder is doing. I always go for the ledge as Ness. All you have to do is shield PKT2 and punish. It's ridiculously easy to do. Now if Sheik is on the ledge and Ness goes onto the stage, then there's a chance that he won't be punished, But... what about the times where Ness's PKT2 ends when he's airborne? Easy punishment for Sheik for any time when Ness has to recover from below because he's going to have to avoid the ledge (thanks to Sheik) in order to land on the stage... while floating right in front of her.
When someone tethers the ledge, they can just hold on where they are. We know that Ness will never get the chance to yo-yo and PKT on one tether, so he's going to do one or the other. Ness can't charge his yo-yo over the edge long enough to reliably hit someone who's coming up because... well, they're not coming up. Same with PKT, except it can go down to where the person hanging on is, but that doesn't matter because you can still pull Sheik up fast enough to not get hit by it if it hasn't started significantly earlier. There's a chance of it happening, but it's not very large. Ness does not destroy *anything* in this game.
I didn't even factor this into my earlier score of 60:40 or possibly 55:45 Sheik. Ness isn't the easiest target to grab, but if it must be taken into consideration, then you're looking at that 55:45 possibility disappearing. 60:40 Sheik, no better.
Ness can counter himself quite well, but this ditto matchup is actually really fun. 50:50 Ness.
and at the same time haha. Also, is that true? Dash attack out prioritizes PK Fire?!
Yep...you know it, I know it, but PK Nintendo wants to waste time...
Nobody in my area has done it lol.
I disagree
