Official Stage Legality Discussion

I'm pretty sure you can fall through every stage, Deoxys. So if you're that concerned about it, it's an argument to ban every stage. I've only had it happen in my own matches on Castle Siege, Pokemon Stadium, and Delfino Plaza in Brawl, but it can happen on non-transforming stages as well.

I know somebody who has a replay of falling through smashville and I'm getting the replay now.

(04:12:22 PM) Colin: hey
(04:12:37 PM) Colin: didn't you have a replay of falling through smashville at some point?
(04:12:45 PM) sam388: YES
(04:12:46 PM) sam388: caps
(04:12:48 PM) sam388: i still have it
(04:12:49 PM) Colin: can I have it?
(04:12:55 PM) sam388: uh sure i guess

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I'm pretty sure it's possible to fall through every stage in melee and brawl "randomly". In melee it was most common on Brinstar Depths by far, but it also happened somewhat often on Corneria and Poke Floats (neither of which were banned). It could still happen on other stages though; I have a friend who swears to have seen it happen on Final Destination. In brawl it's most common on Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, and Pokemon Stadium 1, but there's no particular reason it couldn't happen on any stage including Smashville. It's really not a big deal and not a reason to change the legality status of any stage. It's basically the "there's an astronomically low chance of randomly dying at any time" clause. I'm sure you don't like it, but there's nothing anyone can do about it so you just have to deal with it.

Amazing Ampharos said:

Which areas are being claimed as true walk-offs?

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It's practically a non-issue for how longs it's there though >_>

There's also the starting point.

Deoxys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wxrH3cMbUQ

Also http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215980

Amazing Ampharos said:

I'm pretty sure it's possible to fall through every stage in melee and brawl "randomly". In melee it was most common on Brinstar Depths by far, but it also happened somewhat often on Corneria and Poke Floats (neither of which were banned). It could still happen on other stages though; I have a friend who swears to have seen it happen on Final Destination. In brawl it's most common on Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, and Pokemon Stadium 1, but there's no particular reason it couldn't happen on any stage including Smashville. It's really not a big deal and not a reason to change the legality status of any stage. It's basically the "there's an astronomically low chance of randomly dying at any time" clause. I'm sure you don't like it, but there's nothing anyone can do about it so you just have to deal with it.

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If someone falls through the stage randomly in tournament, I think there should be some sort of match reset. Grand Finals biggest tournament ever ends because someone got glitched through the stage last stock?

An example of the falling-through-the-stage glitch on PS1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK4piW2FQ-M

Here, it doesn't look random to me. It looks like Marth got caught under the slanty part of the stage, just as it was appearing... I mean, it would be hard, but it's probably reproducible if you were able to try it enough times on that particular transition. Stage transitions could maybe just be considered a hazard.

I've seen the glitch with Lucas' PKT2 going right through Yoshi's Island (Brawl), though

ColinJF said:

Deoxys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wxrH3cMbUQ

Also http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215980

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Well, it appears that, while being pulled by a strong wind-box and hit by a multi-hit attack, one can be sent through the stage. It's good to know it's not random (OK, so we don't know, but it seems like it isn't). Besides, one could not make as strong an argument as to ban Smashville for this reason as one can to ban Green Greens for its, since ALL stages probably have this glitch, and therefore it makes neither one less valid than the others, thus negating its influence in a good legality decision.

Interestingly, the Green Greens glitch also involves an attack and a wind-box.

AA, IDK if you read my question, but how do you feel about Big Blue? I know you want to concentrate your efforts on arguing for more cut-and-dry stages, but I'm interested in what you think about it.

Amazing Ampharos said:

I'm pretty sure it's possible to fall through every stage in melee and brawl "randomly". In melee it was most common on Brinstar Depths by far, but it also happened somewhat often on Corneria and Poke Floats (neither of which were banned). It could still happen on other stages though; I have a friend who swears to have seen it happen on Final Destination. In brawl it's most common on Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, and Pokemon Stadium 1, but there's no particular reason it couldn't happen on any stage including Smashville. It's really not a big deal and not a reason to change the legality status of any stage. It's basically the "there's an astronomically low chance of randomly dying at any time" clause. I'm sure you don't like it, but there's nothing anyone can do about it so you just have to deal with it.

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Your friend is wrong. Falling though Corneria/Pokefloats happens because the angled stages movement causes a collision glitch causing a character to slip through the stage. It can also happen inside the tree on pokemon stadium's fire transformation as the inner part of it meets at an odd angle creating a gap that's actually lower than you should be able to go. If you slide into that gap you slip through the tree and die.

RedPeppers: Most players are well aware of the slide points in Melee, and they SHOULD avoid it(I tend to avoid air dodging around the inside of the tree in PS) and in Brawl for stages like Castle Siege and Delfino, it's just a byproduct of the stages phazing into existence when your in the wrong spot at the wrong time. It's not necessarily the players fault, but if you are aware of it being possible you should be able to avoid it for the most part.

Okay, about Big Blue, I think it "should" be legal in the sense that I do not believe the current evidence suggests it's unfair. The stage would be the least fair counterpick if allowed though, and it has several features that I don't think anyone likes. Sometimes you really can't see what's beneath you which shouldn't make you die but does put you in bad positions, and being killed by shield pushback is just dumb (if shield pushback puts you on the track, you are all but guaranteed dead). I know certain people are never going to listen about this stage, and I could see very realistically the stage proving broken eventually. Of course, I find matches there right now fair enough... If I were going to go all out for a stage that won't win, it would actually be Rumble Falls (seriously, there is nothing wrong with Rumble Falls). However, both Rumble Falls and Big Blue are just not battles that can be won.

If you're really curious, this is my dream stage list that I would pursue if politics weren't a concern at all. This is probably the most liberal stage list you will ever find that isn't essentially "allow everything"; I really love this game's stage list. This is going to be so controversial that I wouldn't even use it if I were hosting a tournament myself, just so you know.

Starter

Battlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
PictoChat
Pokemon Stadium 1

Counterpick

Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit (I have a few reservations involving how easy the walk-offs are, mostly okay with it)
Rumble Falls
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Distant Planet
Green Hill Zone (I have a few reservations involving how easy the walk-offs are, mostly okay with it)
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Jungle Japes
Onett
Corneria
Rainbow Cruise
Green Greens
Big Blue (I have a few reservations involving how this may end up being way too powerful for some characters with the radical structure, mostly okay with it)
Brinstar

Maybe Counterpick (I'm still not sure about these stages to the point where I am a bit uneasy about them being legal)

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (a very weird stage that I have extremely little experience on; the fact that all deaths here are super low makes me uneasy, and Snake seems extremely overpowered here. I still am not completely sure about it though)
Pirate Ship (the water here is basically incredibly stupid and seems to lead to really degenerate gameplay, but it's hard to ignore lots of tournaments that were fine and allowed this stage)
Port Town Aero Dive (I go back and forth on whether the cars are too much or are acceptable. I had been drifting toward thinking it needed to be banned, but some recent stuff I've seen about it has me starting back the other way now)
Skyworld (I'm not sure if Olimar is actually capable of handling this level or not, and it has an awful lot of teching. I had some matches here recently that were surprisingly not that bad and made me rethink my "this stage is obviously completely broken" position, but I'm not totally sold yet)

Doubles only counterpick

Bridge of Eldin (the power of the walk-offs and the spam is reduced in doubles, and any time concerns you may have had disappear)
Summit (the loop isn't abuseable in doubles, and seriously nothing else about this stage is terribly abuseable. The fish is extremely predictable and a dumb reason to ban it).

Doubles unsure counterpick (could be fair or not; I'm not sure about it, not worth it in practice because people don't like too many doubles only stages)

75m (no joke, explained shortly below)
Hanenbow (neither of these stages is worse than the other; 75m is a bit misunderstood. It is VERY similar to Hanenbow in terms of its problems with soft loops and campy small platforms; the main differences are that 75m has some relatively unimportant hazards and walk-offs with smaller platforms and a very questionable "two long platforms almost on top of each other" area while the ground on Hanenbow is constantly moving when hit and generally isn't flat and slow characters don't get ladders to use to ascend which both make Hanenbow a bit campier)

Banned always

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 (the upper part with the ridiculous ceiling is ban-worthy no matter what, it leads to a strategy that causes deaths so low that this stage produces essentially random results if one side chooses to pursue it)
Spear Pillar (tons of teching, the loop is way too easy even for doubles, and I can't accept reversed controls as a fair hazard)
WarioWare (random stars/mushrooms are unacceptable which is a shame because otherwise this is a very good level)
New Pork City (too huge, too loopy)
Mario Bros. (loopy, gamebreaking hazards that lead to essentially random results as both sides abuse them, too much focus on teching)
Flat Zone 2 (the lion tamers are too deadly of a hazard and not always avoidable, the stage is overall too strong of a counterpick for certain projectile spammers, otherwise it would be a good counterpick; this level is a very cool level and is a huge loss to the game)
Shadow Moses Island (too much bias for powerful vertical kills which pretty much gives Sonic among others 0-100 against most of the cast, too good for walk-off abuse and wall infinites, extremely campy, extreme focus on teching; this stage is like Venom from melee insofar as it's not simple in how it's radical if you don't consider the walls a problem, but it's just a very dumb and very terrible level)
Temple (too huge, too loopy, too much teching)

However, politics means I don't fight for Rumble Falls or Big Blue for singles or for Summit for doubles or for any of the stages I really am not sure about since I think they all really need honest investigation more than anything, but most of them are ridiculously controversial in addition to being questionable at best in terms of fairness so I just resigned to not getting to see about them. I only posted this because you were probing for what I actually thought; don't take anything from it in terms of what positions I want to work for because pursuing a list like this is just a good way to never be able to get anything you want.

Back to Green Greens, about the exploding field, I just don't think it's broken. It's like Ness's yoyo glitch from melee except I don't think you can make those hitboxes actually move. It should be obvious enough once it's invoked so you just don't go into it once it happens. It's one of the few mechanics I actually don't understand that well though so any exploding field experts chiming in would be awesome.

I just don't like the randomness of GG, as you know.

Skyworld, PTAD, and Pirate Ship are SO much more legitimate than Mario Circuit or Green Hill Zone. Those levels are pretty broken thanks to DDD.

You have convinced me that Pictochat is more neutral than Castle Seige on average, and that Corneria is fair, simply by making me re-evaluate it.

This is my dream list*, although when I eventually run a tournament I would cut the starters to the 7 best:

Starter
Battlefield
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pictochat
Pokémon Stadium 1
Pokémon Stadium 2
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Counter
Big Blue
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Onett
Pirate Ship
Port Town Aero Drive
Rainbow Cruise
Rumble Falls
Skyworld
Yoshi's Island (Melee)

*This will now be the stage list for my house except when practicing for a specific tournament.

Seriously, Falco is bad on Big Blue. Falco just isn't built to constantly be jumping at opponents or to fight on small, uneven platforms which is what you need on Big Blue. His down aerial isn't even very good there; you can just tech off the track which ends up meaning he has FEWER opportunities to land a fatal meteor than on other stages. He can't really chaingrab on the cars either. The actually really good characters there are more like Meta Knight, Mr. Game & Watch, and Jigglypuff (I think Marth is pretty good there too, and I can easily see someone like Toon Link or Pit played smart making that into a great stage for them). Basically, having good aerial approaches means the movements of the cars doesn't really matter for you, and you can easily break the opponent's ability to hold out on an oddly shaped car or something. Having moves that essentially cover the entire cars like Meta Knight's down smash, Mr. Game & Watch's down smash, or Marth's forward smash is a big deal as well. None of these things that are actually powerful on Big Blue apply to Falco, and his projectile game kinda sucks there since the stage is usually not flat enough for him to be able to shoot things with his linear projectile.

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None of which is a reason to ban the stage.

Falco is bad on the stage. So what? That's why its a counterpick stage. No one is suggesting it be added to the neutral stage list; they're saying it shouldn't be banned.

what would happen in a tournament if the invisible explosions accidentally happened?

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The same thing which happens when you fall through Pokemon Stadium 1: your opponent points and laughs.

Mario Circuit (I have a few reservations involving how easy the walk-offs are, mostly okay with it)

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I learned how to CG off this stage during a match, having played DeDeDe no more than two or three times previously. There's no way it can be a legal stage; the cars simply aren't random enough to prevent me from doing it, especially on the bottom where I'm pretty much entirely safe if I grab you.

Green Hill Zone (I have a few reservations involving how easy the walk-offs are, mostly okay with it)

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See above; this stage doesn't even have the blessing of the Circuit's cars.

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (a very weird stage that I have extremely little experience on; the fact that all deaths here are super low makes me uneasy, and Snake seems extremely overpowered here. I still am not completely sure about it though)

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Again, DeDeDe can pretty trivially CG people off the edges here.

Pirate Ship (the water here is basically incredibly stupid and seems to lead to really degenerate gameplay, but it's hard to ignore lots of tournaments that were fine and allowed this stage)

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I've never had problems with the water. Yeah, it makes it so you can't die off the bottom (save when the tornado comes), but its not like there aren't other stages where you won't die off the bottom, such as Onett. Besides, Delfino Plaza also has water, and it is a neutral stage, and I don't see how this stage's water would be any worse.

Port Town Aero Dive (I go back and forth on whether the cars are too much or are acceptable. I had been drifting toward thinking it needed to be banned, but some recent stuff I've seen about it has me starting back the other way now)

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Save in the one section where the cars go across the screen horizontally, you never should be hit by the cars unless your opponent put you in the way of them. In the section where the cars come horizontally, it is very dangerous, but it seems like it'd be possible to evade the cars.

Skyworld (I'm not sure if Olimar is actually capable of handling this level or not, and it has an awful lot of teching. I had some matches here recently that were surprisingly not that bad and made me rethink my "this stage is obviously completely broken" position, but I'm not totally sold yet)\

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I really don't understand what is wrong with Skyworld. I mean, it is a strange stage, to be sure, which is odd given how simple it seems, but I don't think its illegitimate as a counterpick stage.

Bridge of Eldin (the power of the walk-offs and the spam is reduced in doubles, and any time concerns you may have had disappear)

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I'm far from convinced, though I have little experience with teams.

Summit (the loop isn't abuseable in doubles, and seriously nothing else about this stage is terribly abuseable. The fish is extremely predictable and a dumb reason to ban it).

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The big problem here would seem to me to be if one character on one team died, the other team could (potentially) circle camp. Not sure if that's realistic, though, or a big deal.

Starter
Battlefield
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pictochat
Pokémon Stadium 1
Pokémon Stadium 2
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

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I would love that set of neutral stages for tournaments.

I also support 2 stage bans so if you used someone who had big King Dedede problems, I'd probably just ban Mario Circuit. I'm pretty much entirely convinced that it's fair in all matchups that don't involve King Dedede as well as King Dedede versus characters he can't chainthrow, himself, Ice Climbers, and Donkey Kong. Out of the 1296 matchups in the game, that means there are only 23 worry matchups. Some of those like Ness, Toon Link, and Pokemon Trainer have further character specific options they can pursue to minimize King Dedede's effectiveness here. You can also simply refuse to fight on the ground and stick to the platforms which with some characters is highly effective and makes King Dedede radically less dangerous. I don't know; I don't really get to play good King Dededes often, and I main someone who is frankly unconcerned.

Green Hill Zone is kinda in the same boat, but I'm not sure that King Dedede can actually chaingrab up that left slope over that "corner". If King Dedede is really the only problem, it may come down to just picking one of the two of them and making the other doubles only. These aren't two stages that are high on my priority list, but it seems silly to ban two stages because of 23/1296 matchups which is 1.77% for those poor with math. All the other banned stages are highly unfair in at least 100 matchups, and most of them are unfair in more like 800+ matchups.

About Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1, I am not sure that King Dedede is actually even particulary good there. His chainthrows kill, but stocks only last until something like 70% on that stage so "don't get grabbed" is a reasonable anti-King Dedede strategy. It's a very weird level, and I don't have enough experience on it to actually be able to speak with confidence about how it turns out. It's pretty screwy.

Most people don't have problems with the water on Pirate Ship because they don't play to win. The problem with the water is what happens if one player just jumps in the water and simply refuses to come out. It's not a problem on Delfino at all because you just wait for the stage to transform, but that's not really possible on Pirate Ship. The problem is that all the various ways the water game develop involve character specific stuff, and I can't get enough personal experience in 1296 matchups to get a full sense of this stage. It's still a dumb stage regardless, but I don't move to ban stages for being dumb. At this point, I basically just stay out of arguments about this stage because I'm rather indifferent to its fate.

Yeah, Port Town is mostly hard to get quality experience on because most people I know play like morons on the stage...

On Skyworld, camping the lower part and strategically destroying certain platforms can get pretty dumb, mostly with Olimar who is gimpable on a whole new level when you destroy the ledges he needs to recover. I only recently started rethinking this stage so really I just haven't been able to come to a conclusion yet. In terms of politics, this stage can only be described as an uphill battle.

I see nothing broken about Bridge of Eldin in teams at all. It seems obviously fair, and I offhandedly suggest it frequently.

About stage loops in teams, all I will say is that Termina was doubles legal in melee and produced no problems. 2v1 is pretty much hopeless anyway so it's not worth worrying about. 1v1 at the very end coming down to some looping when this is actually the hardest loop stage to run the loop on doesn't seem substantial enough to ban a stage over. There is about a 0% chance of anyone being convinced on this stage though so I wouldn't worry about it.

Green Greens just isn't very random; on average the random effects there are less important than on Port Town, Norfair, and Pirate Ship in my experience. They're really probably in the league of Frigate Orpheon for randomness. I think out of all the stages that this is one that a lot of people are just not really looking at correctly. I'll have an epically long post about Green Greens later today probably.

Amazing Ampharos said:

Most people don't have problems with the water on Pirate Ship because they don't play to win. The problem with the water is what happens if one player just jumps in the water and simply refuses to come out. It's not a problem on Delfino at all because you just wait for the stage to transform, but that's not really possible on Pirate Ship. The problem is that all the various ways the water game develop involve character specific stuff, and I can't get enough personal experience in 1296 matchups to get a full sense of this stage. It's still a dumb stage regardless, but I don't move to ban stages for being dumb. At this point, I basically just stay out of arguments about this stage because I'm rather indifferent to its fate.

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Camping in the water isn't really effective in my experience. They remain vulnerable to beind daired or approached from the side and KO'd horizontally.

Amazing Ampharos said:

On Skyworld, camping the lower part and strategically destroying certain platforms can get pretty dumb, mostly with Olimar who is gimpable on a whole new level when you destroy the ledges he needs to recover. I only recently started rethinking this stage so really I just haven't been able to come to a conclusion yet. In terms of politics, this stage can only be described as an uphill battle.

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Of the Counter/Banned stages on the SBR list, Skyworld had the most Counter votes. Why should it be an uphill battle? Why are you unsure? Can you think of one broken aspect of the stage. Making a character suck at recovery more than usual isn't reason to ban a stage, unless they can never win there, which is not the case at all with Skyworld.

Amazing Ampharos said:

I see nothing broken about Bridge of Eldin in teams at all. It seems obviously fair, and I offhandedly suggest it frequently.

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Well, some matches there take a long time, but I completely agree with you.

Amazing Ampharos said:

About stage loops in teams, all I will say is that Termina was doubles legal in melee and produced no problems. 2v1 is pretty much hopeless anyway so it's not worth worrying about. 1v1 at the very end coming down to some looping when this is actually the hardest loop stage to run the loop on doesn't seem substantial enough to ban a stage over. There is about a 0% chance of anyone being convinced on this stage though so I wouldn't worry about it.

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2v1 being "pretty much hopeless" is no excuse to allow circle camping. It doesn't seem like it would be nearly as effective on Termina.

How can you be unsure about Skyworld and think Summit might be allowable?! Summit NEVER has edges....

Amazing Ampharos said:

Green Greens just isn't very random; on average the random effects there are less important than on Port Town, Norfair, and Pirate Ship in my experience. They're really probably in the league of Frigate Orpheon for randomness. I think out of all the stages that this is one that a lot of people are just not really looking at correctly. I'll have an epically long post about Green Greens later today probably. All the other banned stages are highly unfair in at least 100 matchups, and most of them are unfair in more like 800+ matchups.

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I look forward to it. While the randomness on Green Greens might seem less important, it can result in situations where NOTHING can be done to undo the advantages it has randomly provided, unlike all that stages I think should be legal. After being grabbed on Green Greens, seeing a bomb block appear, and hitting the block as it's falling out of a grab release is inescapable. Sure, it's very rare, but it's intolerably unfair to allow such an occurance, regardless of rarity IMO.

Amazing Ampharos said:

Green Hill Zone is kinda in the same boat, but I'm not sure that King Dedede can actually chaingrab up that left slope over that "corner". If King Dedede is really the only problem, it may come down to just picking one of the two of them and making the other doubles only. These aren't two stages that are high on my priority list, but it seems silly to ban two stages because of 23/1296 matchups which is 1.77% for those poor with math. All the other banned stages are highly unfair in at least 100 matchups, and most of them are unfair in more like 800+ matchups.

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IMO, Green Greens has potential to be unfair regardless of the matchup.

DDD can CG from anywhere in any direction except when he's facing left on the right ledge. It is also important to remember that there are more DDD players than Jigglypuff. Those 23 matchups are far more than 1.77% of the metagame. That said, those stages are only unfair because of DDD. IDK what your reasoning is when you say you can just stay at the top of Mario Circuit, as the cars will come by.

Titanium Dragon said:

I learned how to CG off this stage during a match, having played DeDeDe no more than two or three times previously. There's no way it can be a legal stage; the cars simply aren't random enough to prevent me from doing it, especially on the bottom where I'm pretty much entirely safe if I grab you.

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If there weren't cars the stage would be much more likely to be legitimate because you could use the top of it.

Titanium Dragon said:

Again, DeDeDe can pretty trivially CG people off the edges here.

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The word you're looking for is "easily." Trivially would mean that the CG isn't an important factor, which is almost certainly not what you mean.

Titanium Dragon said:

I've never had problems with the water. Yeah, it makes it so you can't die off the bottom (save when the tornado comes), but its not like there aren't other stages where you won't die off the bottom, such as Onett. Besides, Delfino Plaza also has water, and it is a neutral stage, and I don't see how this stage's water would be any worse.

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This is exactly how I feel, although I don't think the Delfino part of the argument is important.

Titanium Dragon said:

Save in the one section where the cars go across the screen horizontally, you never should be hit by the cars unless your opponent put you in the way of them. In the section where the cars come horizontally, it is very dangerous, but it seems like it'd be possible to evade the cars.

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You just have to go to the top platform at that stop. It's like when the lava reaches maximum height on Brinstar. SO BROKEN lol jk.

Titanium Dragon said:

Falco is bad on the stage. So what? That's why its a counterpick stage. No one is suggesting it be added to the neutral stage list; they're saying it shouldn't be banned.

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I had theorized that Falco would be unfair on that stage because of his CG to spike. He was correcting me.

Amazing Ampharos said:

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (a very weird stage that I have extremely little experience on; the fact that all deaths here are super low makes me uneasy, and Snake seems extremely overpowered here. I still am not completely sure about it though)

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Mushroomy Kingdom is just a pile of DDD "infinites." It's another stage that should be allowed only in doubles.

Titanium Dragon said:

I would love that set of neutral stages for tournaments.

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Thanks! Where do you live? I'll either have it in Manhattan or in Massachusetts.



BTW, I would only allow one ban.

It's not just Olimar on Skyworld; Skyworld is a pretty skewed stage all around that is kinda like a crazy version of Luigi's Mansion. It's probably not broken, but it seems way more powerful of a counterpick than just about any of the other potential counterpicks. Also, on Skyworld, the nature of the stage's structure means you get hit down a lot; on the Summit you seriously very rarely get hit down. Olimar probably has an easier time recovering overall on the Summit.

You can just jump over the cars. It's a pretty silly strategy, but you'd be surprised at how well it can work. As per the 1.77%, I would point out that Meta Knight is the most common character who is making up for Jigglypuff's rareness. In fact, not having to worry about King Dedede on those stages is probably more common than the other way around since light characters are really disproportionately good...

Circle camping on Summit and Termina is pretty similar in ease. Actually, it's a bit harder on Summit because you slide which slows you down if you aren't careful. On Termina Fox and Falco basically can't be caught by most of the cast if they just camp the lower area and illusion/phantasm under the stage. If someone tries chasing them under, they just run over the top. When they aren't involved, Jigglypuff is the one who suddenly has circle powers here. It's seriously very easy and is why Termina was banned in singles. Somewhere along the line the community decided that it just wasn't a worry in doubles, and years of tournaments seem to have vindicated them.

Doubles is ridiculously fast compared to singles; matches on the Bridge of Eldin will not run to time in doubles. I am not convinced time was a good reason to ban the stage anyway; it was more like it was an obnoxious factor that just made it easier to want to ban for all of the other problems the stage already had.

I'm just going to doubt that you have played very many matches on the Mushroomy Kingdom. Seriously, a stock on that stage is worth half as much as on every other stage; it's crazy. What I'm saying is that while King Dedede has those easy infinites and such there, it might not matter because of how much else is going on there. It's not a stage I really want to fight over or dwell on more anyway.

The water basically means that you are forcing the entire game on Pirate Ship to be in the air. If I'm Mr. Game & Watch and you are Falco, haha that's amazing. You no longer have a chaingrab. You no longer have projectile pressure. Really you lose most of your moveset. I have easy answers to all of your aerial options (his spike is a very weak threat when I have an invincible up special). It's not hopeless for you, but it's definitely my best strategy to spend the entire match in the water which makes the actual gameplay pretty degenerate. It's usually in the interest of at least one of the players to camp the water from what I've seen; if you have a better air game than them, why risk real fighting?

I have not followed the discussion for a while, but have some things to add for some of the stages:

Mario bros 1-2 , MK and probably kirbys uthrow can kill certain characters at really low % done correcly.


I cannot see why the Snake stage should be banned in teams, I think like the optimal characters too use on it seems to be Pika/Fox, both since DDD dthrow CG doesn´t work on fox and they can use pikas thunder in a great way scoring KO's and use it for team combos.
It just needs a slightly different strategy getting those KOs...

OK, AA, Summit is legitimate in doubles, too. Heck, I guess even Mario Circuit and GHZ should be legal in doubles.* Stages that allow circle camping are strictly less fair in singles than Pirate Ship is, if I understand your reasoning. I'm gonna go play a bunch of matches on Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1.

Smasher89 said:

Mario bros 1-2 , MK and probably kirbys uthrow can kill certain characters at really low % done correcly.


I cannot see why the Snake stage should be banned in teams, I think like the optimal characters too use on it seems to be Pika/Fox, both since DDD dthrow CG doesn´t work on fox and they can use pikas thunder in a great way scoring KO's and use it for team combos.
It just needs a slightly different strategy getting those KOs...

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I'm almost 100% sure that they can't KO at really low %s if done correctly, but who cares? The stage needs to be banned regardless.

*Shadow Moses Island should also be legal in teams for the same reason.

CHAOSvsORDER said:

It's not instant death landing on the road. Also, what match up is camped out?

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I believe I mentioned it earlier. I dislike repeating myself.
Its not instant death landing upon the rad but you are immediately forced to place yourself in a situation where the opponent can simply continue running away.
Again the grounjd is always changing so you are always fighting with the landscape to reach your opponent. you land on the road, at worst, you die but you still get camped.

CHAOSvsORDER said:

I did. Pit's terrible landing lag makes it so he will die pretty easily. However, his triple jump+gliding+UpB allow for a pretty decent recovery.

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I mentioned Pit as a method of a camping character. Recovery wise he has no problem with his jumps and ^B lags only if you manage to use the entire thing.

CHAOSvsORDER said:

If you get hit by the klaptrap, then you're probably going to die. In the middle of a match it's not always easy to keep track of the timer since you're going to be focusing on the match itself.

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Then don't fall in the water. Unlike big blue, the ground is not always moving

CHAOSvsORDER said:

An overpowering strategy should necessitate a ban because it compromises gameplay to a degree that makes the game unplayable(infinites, camping, etc.). The only thing over powering about BB might be camping. As for Rumble Falls, I thought the OP'ing strat was CG->death since a lot of the platforms almost extend into the blast lines and as such it was banned.

Big blue shouldn't be banned, it should be CP. If you dislike the stage and the other person dislikes the stage, then neither will pick it. But just because a stage is unpleasant doens't mean it should be banned.

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Did I or did I not provide you a strategy that was overpowered on this stage? Or are you in the business of simply skimming my post?
You can camp.

Since the ground is ALWAYS changing a character like Pit gains an extreme advantage. Since he has an incredibly good projectile and aerial mobility, it is incredibly hard to approach Pit.


The stage interferes with gameplay far too much to warrant it not being banned.

No one cares about likes or dislikes, I don't even know why you are mentioning it.
Fact of the matter is, once the stage takes priority over the opponent, there is definitely an issue with the stage.

these are some stages i think should be banned

Frigate Orpheon- im actually right on the boarder with this one its a fair stage until it flips but some crazy and totally unexpected things can happen

Pictochat-hazards arent very obvious i like it but the hazards are just too unfair for tourney play also on the boarder

Pirate Ship-hazards some arent too obvious like it coming out of the ground and sometimes even the bomb and coming on shore is like WTF happened? only map im really for a ban on

Port Town Aero Dive-the cars kill too early and they also can come out of nowhere though again im right on the boarder with this one

also why is bridge of eldin banned? doesnt make sence to ban it when the hazards are obvious

pirate ships the only one im reallllllly for a ban
other than that you guys nailed the list

I also support 2 stage bans so if you used someone who had big King Dedede problems, I'd probably just ban Mario Circuit. I'm pretty much entirely convinced that it's fair in all matchups that don't involve King Dedede as well as King Dedede versus characters he can't chainthrow, himself, Ice Climbers, and Donkey Kong. Out of the 1296 matchups in the game, that means there are only 23 worry matchups. Some of those like Ness, Toon Link, and Pokemon Trainer have further character specific options they can pursue to minimize King Dedede's effectiveness here. You can also simply refuse to fight on the ground and stick to the platforms which with some characters is highly effective and makes King Dedede radically less dangerous. I don't know; I don't really get to play good King Dededes often, and I main someone who is frankly unconcerned.

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The problem is it isn't "23 worrisome matchups", its "a huge percentage of matchups with a specific character". Just 23 matchups wouldn't be so bad, but when those 23 matchups constitute well over half the matchups of a specific character and give an inordinate advantage, it is a real problem.

Thing is, this doesn't work because right now, you could, say, ban Delfino Plaza and Castle Seige and there'd be zero walk-offs available. With Mario Circuit, you'd have to allow at least one of those (as you cannot ban all three).

About Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1, I am not sure that King Dedede is actually even particulary good there. His chainthrows kill, but stocks only last until something like 70% on that stage so "don't get grabbed" is a reasonable anti-King Dedede strategy. It's a very weird level, and I don't have enough experience on it to actually be able to speak with confidence about how it turns out. It's pretty screwy.

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There is an enormous difference between 0% and 70%.

And honestly, stocks only lasting until 70% is a not-so-bad reason to ban the stage; Flat World in SSBM was banned in part due to being far too small.

Most people don't have problems with the water on Pirate Ship because they don't play to win. The problem with the water is what happens if one player just jumps in the water and simply refuses to come out. It's not a problem on Delfino at all because you just wait for the stage to transform, but that's not really possible on Pirate Ship. The problem is that all the various ways the water game develop involve character specific stuff, and I can't get enough personal experience in 1296 matchups to get a full sense of this stage. It's still a dumb stage regardless, but I don't move to ban stages for being dumb. At this point, I basically just stay out of arguments about this stage because I'm rather indifferent to its fate.

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First off, water camping isn't all that great. Secondly, "Its not really possible on Pirate Ship"? Really? Beyond the fact that cannonballs often hit the water, there's the tornado which will KO anyone in the water when it hits the ship and lifts it. So you can't stay there the whole match even if you wanted to.

Thanks! Where do you live? I'll either have it in Manhattan or in Massachusetts.

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About 3000 miles away from you, sadly. :< I should put in my location; I had completely forgotten about the ability to enter that.

The water basically means that you are forcing the entire game on Pirate Ship to be in the air. If I'm Mr. Game & Watch and you are Falco, haha that's amazing. You no longer have a chaingrab. You no longer have projectile pressure. Really you lose most of your moveset. I have easy answers to all of your aerial options (his spike is a very weak threat when I have an invincible up special). It's not hopeless for you, but it's definitely my best strategy to spend the entire match in the water which makes the actual gameplay pretty degenerate. It's usually in the interest of at least one of the players to camp the water from what I've seen; if you have a better air game than them, why risk real fighting?

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Because they'll edgeguard the ship when the tornado comes, and you have a harder time dodging the cannonballs? Plus in that case, you'd have to worry about being spiked while trying to get to the ship; if you're spiked, you're down a stock.

I'll yell at yummy after.

ShadowLink, on Big Blue, camping isn't an issue because the platforms shift around so much. Sometimes there's only one platform, sometimes there's none at all. I'm getting the impression you just don't like adapting to new things.


YUMMY WTF MAN YOU PIECE OF
The hazards on PictoChat (most) aren't killing. And you can preemptively avoid the ones that kill you.
Orpheon warns you; you just have to stay in the middle.
Pirate Ship has slight warning, the most noticeable being the catapult.
Port Town has safe zones. Stay in them.
Bridge of Eldin is completely flat with no platforms (great for projectile spams), and has walkoffs (Dedede's Chain Grab says hi, then bye as you're dead.)

frigate is extremely predictable... there's a visual cue as well as an audio one, and it follows the _exact_ same pattern every time... once you understand that it's just 2 platforms that rotate clockwise around the center of the top kill-zone, it's easy to predict where you're going to end up during/after the switch

picto chat -- the hazards at most cause a minor inconvenience to play... by the time you properly set up to take advantage of the hazard it's gone

ship I hate... I personally think it should be banned, but I can see why it is a viable counterpick, and really, I never choose it, and the level does not reward one style over another, it just is random... since I've already won on a neutral level, I'll probably be in a better position than them on pirate ship, and therefore in a better position to deal with the obstacles

port town - i've been playing this one a lot lately, and I was on the fence about it, but really it should be banned... the cars kill way too easly... the safe zones are too small to justify the amount of pain you get from not being in them

eldin should remain banned for d3 being overpowered on it, as well as the "edge" game (camping near the killzones) is the best strategy

Linkshot said:

I'll yell at yummy after.

ShadowLink, on Big Blue, camping isn't an issue because the platforms shift around so much. Sometimes there's only one platform, sometimes there's none at all. I'm getting the impression you just don't like adapting to new things.

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Your impression is wrong.
As I said if you use Pit skillfully camping becomes a major issue.
primarily because of his aerial capability. It isn't hard to move from one platform to the other while firing your arrows considering your opponent is forced to deal with the platform issue as well.

Mach rider suits the stage.

Linkshot said:

YUMMY WTF MAN YOU PIECE OF

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Don't be an ***.

What's this about Summit being ok in doubles?

Doubles matches can just go down to 2v1 or 1v1 where someone's circle-camping, and circle-camping is dumb. Even if it's just for (typically) last stock, why isn't that ban-worthy?

Sorry x.x I was hyper and just kidding. Should have made that clear.

ShadowLink84 said:

I believe I mentioned it earlier. I dislike repeating myself.
Its not instant death landing upon the rad but you are immediately forced to place yourself in a situation where the opponent can simply continue running away.
Again the grounjd is always changing so you are always fighting with the landscape to reach your opponent. you land on the road, at worst, you die but you still get camped.

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The landscape changes slow enough that you can still chase your opponent without to much trouble. Not to mention the platforms that appear with allow you the option to approach from above.

ShadowLink84 said:

I mentioned Pit as a method of a camping character. Recovery wise he has no problem with his jumps and ^B lags only if you manage to use the entire thing.

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Some of his aerials lag long enough for him to die pretty easily if he lands on the road.

ShadowLink84 said:

Then don't fall in the water. Unlike big blue, the ground is not always moving

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Then don't fall on the road.

ShadowLink84 said:

Did I or did I not provide you a strategy that was overpowered on this stage? Or are you in the business of simply skimming my post?
You can camp.

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Pit's camping is the over powered strategy. Ok got it. I'll be testing that out later.

ShadowLink84 said:

Since the ground is ALWAYS changing a character like Pit gains an extreme advantage. Since he has an incredibly good projectile and aerial mobility, it is incredibly hard to approach Pit.

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Pit is the reason it's banned then.

ShadowLink84 said:

The stage interferes with gameplay far too much to warrant it not being banned.

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It doesn't take much gameplay on it to adapt. It's not to hard to play on.

ShadowLink84 said:

No one cares about likes or dislikes, I don't even know why you are mentioning it.
Fact of the matter is, once the stage takes priority over the opponent, there is definitely an issue with the stage.

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I'd wager that a lot of people care about likes or dislikes and that personal preference dictates how the game is played. That is why certain stages are banned in some tournaments. but allowed in others. I agree with you that when the stage takes priority over the opponent that the stage should be banned. That's why stages with infinites and circle camping are banned. You say that you can camp with Pit. Alright well I'll be testing this out later in the week to see if you're right.

infzy said:

What's this about Summit being ok in doubles?

Doubles matches can just go down to 2v1 or 1v1 where someone's circle-camping, and circle-camping is dumb. Even if it's just for (typically) last stock, why isn't that ban-worthy?

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Who's to say that the outcome has to be up in the air until the last stock in doubles? The format of your opponent's team just has a phenomenal late-game when they're in the advantage on a CP.

Who's to say that the outcome has to be up in the air until the last stock in doubles? The format of your opponent's team just has a phenomenal late-game when they're in the advantage on a CP.

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That's not really a good thing, though.

AA, I was wrong about Mushroomy Kingdom being a pile of DDD "infinites;" it's a huge walk-off.

BTW, I now realize that I would allow 2 bans in my ideal format. When I run a tournament one day, I'll probably allow 3 to keep people from johning over Big Blue, or I'll just take it off the list.

Titanium Dragon said:

That's not really a good thing, though.

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You're right; it's entirely a matter of opinion if it's allowable or not for that reason.

But that's a very similar tradeoff to saying that circle-campy stages just give a CP advantage to whoever can get a bit of damage in first, then run away successfully.

It does come out to a personal opinion, but it seems suspiciously slippery.

CHAOSvsORDER said:

The landscape changes slow enough that you can still chase your opponent without to much trouble. Not to mention the platforms that appear with allow you the option to approach from above.

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The platforms that appear are random in placement and while the cars do move slowly the issue is how many cars, or how many platforms there are. Sometimes you have alot, sometimes you don't , alot of characters like Pit can play keep away while shooting projectiles.
So you're having to navigate the landscape while your opponent is constantly firing arrows at you.

This makes matches last much, much longer and often falls down to who can camp best.

CHAOSvsORDER said:

Some of his aerials lag long enough for him to die pretty easily if he lands on the road.

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Only if you somehow perform them at lower than SH height.
Except the Dair, I don't believe that one cancels in time.
Again though why use aerials when I can fire my projectiles at you all the time?

CHAOSvsORDER said:

Then don't fall on the road.

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Assuming of course there are platforms, which are random in placement and appearance, and that your opponent isn't constantly harassing you with their arrows.

CHAOSvsORDER said:

Pit's camping is the over powered strategy. Ok got it. I'll be testing that out later.

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k

CHAOSvsORDER said:

Pit is the reason it's banned then.

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There are a few other characters I believe, possibly TL due to his incredible projectile game.

CHAOSvsORDER said:

It doesn't take much gameplay on it to adapt. It's not to hard to play on.[/qote] The issue isn't adapting or difficulty, its how much it affects the game..

CHAOSvsORDER said:

I'd wager that a lot of people care about likes or dislikes and that personal preference dictates how the game is played. That is why certain stages are banned in some tournaments. but allowed in others. I agree with you that when the stage takes priority over the opponent that the stage should be banned. That's why stages with infinites and circle camping are banned. You say that you can camp with Pit. Alright well I'll be testing this out later in the week to see if you're right.

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Meh personal feelings can't be removed entirely but I don't believe I saw any stages banned that were not already controversial.

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Well in anycase, BB needs a lot more testing IMO. I'll be testing with Pit, TL and... can you recommend anyone else? Possibly Link or Spamus?

If you are worried about Big Blue and who wins there and might break it, I'd suggest whipping out the good old Meta Knight.

CHAOSvsORDER said:

Well in anycase, BB needs a lot more testing IMO. I'll be testing with Pit, TL and... can you recommend anyone else? Possibly Link or Spamus?

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Link has major issues with his aerial movement so he can't camp as efficiently.
Possibly Falco, Samus.

If you are worried about Big Blue and who wins there and might break it, I'd suggest whipping out the good old Meta Knight.

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MK has the 6th slowest aerial movement in the game. Good luck chasing Pit, or TL.
Try to tornado, big deal they can easily avoid it.

Pink Reaper said:

RedPeppers: Most players are well aware of the slide points in Melee, and they SHOULD avoid it(I tend to avoid air dodging around the inside of the tree in PS) and in Brawl for stages like Castle Siege and Delfino, it's just a byproduct of the stages phazing into existence when your in the wrong spot at the wrong time. It's not necessarily the players fault, but if you are aware of it being possible you should be able to avoid it for the most part.

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Yeah, I was aware of this in Melee(phanna had "stock canceling" as part of a Melee vid I believe she WDed on the tree at fire stage PS1), I was just responding to the point of it happening in Brawl, and if it were some sort of random glitch. Which as you explained it is not. I'm curious as to what TOs would do if it happened to an unsuspecting player? You can try to avoid it sure, but unless we can figure out when and where it happens like in Melee this could be somewhat problematic in a tournament setting.

my teammate and i just stick the person with a c4 and then stage glitch them then blow the c4 up. it works every time.

I wonder if Olimar can be broken on Big Blue.

So, I've decided Big Blue should be banned. I'll explain soon.

Before then,
can someone concisely give me the reasons for it's defense?

MenoUnderwater said:

can someone concisely give me the reasons for it's defense?

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Stages are innocent until proven guilty.