Deoxys
Smash Lord
QFT. We're not in France.Stages are innocent until proven guilty.
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Official Stage Legality Discussion
- Thread starter Mic_128
- Start date
- Status
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Big Blue will hopefully be tested in a competitive environment tonigith (friendlies).
I have to keep that typo.
so we tested big blue tonight, and well... I think it should 100% be banned but LS and CvO don't quite agree with me...
the main problem is a) if there's a tight aerial battle, the camera zooms in and you can't see the bottom of the stage... this is problematic as the cars shift from 2-3 at the bottom, so you can't be sure if you're going to land on a car or the road...
but that's just a minor inconvenience compared to b) it's absolutely impossible to approach on the ground... period... because the 'ground' is a bunch of platforms characters with mad aerial games dominate the stage... it's not just a "really valid cp for char's with good aerials", it's way beyond that, its broken
the main problem is a) if there's a tight aerial battle, the camera zooms in and you can't see the bottom of the stage... this is problematic as the cars shift from 2-3 at the bottom, so you can't be sure if you're going to land on a car or the road...
but that's just a minor inconvenience compared to b) it's absolutely impossible to approach on the ground... period... because the 'ground' is a bunch of platforms characters with mad aerial games dominate the stage... it's not just a "really valid cp for char's with good aerials", it's way beyond that, its broken
Dragoomba
Smash Lord
Big Blue has been banned for like 8 years. Why unban it now?
infomon
Smash Scientist
Because if it never should have been banned in the first place, then we're scrubs for keeping it that way; it'd be artificially biasing counterpicks against characters like Jiggs and in favour of characters like Falco.
Indeed at our smashfest, there were some matchups that seemed stupid on Big Blue (like Bowser), but we didn't really test them enough IMO to say so. We'd need to all get enough stage experience to know for sure if any chars are rendered completely unviable. (ex. if D3's chaingrab is broken enough to ban BoE, then can that argument be applied to Big Blue for rendering many characters at a severe disadvantage? idk)
We all agreed that the stage sucks, but we had trouble pinpointing anything that makes it "broken" by any conventional measure. Is "no way to approach on the ground" a legit reason to ban a stage? It seems fishy to me, but buenob's right that that's a laaarge part of the game that's largely cut out by this level. So idk
Da-D-Mon-109
Smash Lord
Hello! Just popin in and lookin around a bit. So, we're talkin about stages being allowed or not. I feel like putting a few words in. Don't mind me if I'm annoying annyone. (This player is assuming that chain grabs are on, items are off, standard stock battle, any characters)
Battlefield-Prettymuch the fairest stage in Brawl. It doesn't seem like it gives anyone specific advantages or disadvanatages. I should play here more often.
Delfino Plaza-I don't think this is a "starter" stage, only because you risk an eazy KO by looking around the scenery as the actual stage moves around. But otherwize, it's a fun stage, and makes me wish that summer and bikini season would start soon.
Yoshi's Island DS-You have to be brain dead or have poor timing to be koed by the stage here. Those support ghosts are incredibly helpful. Not much you can say about it, except I ALWAYS SEEM TO FIGHT IN THE WINTER STAGE! ;.;
Lylat Cruise-First time I saw this, I thought we'd be bombarded by the fighters and the asteroids, and that it'd be crazy to play in. But it's boring now. And also, why do so many games ignore the laws of science? WE NEED AIR TO LIVE! AND ATMOSPHERES ARE VERY HOT!
Bridge of Eldin-It's banned because the elements make matches last long, since it's easy for players to stall games. That's no fair. But it's understandable. That, and people who use Projectiles can gimp those who have to cross the big gap much worse on this stage than on other stages. This stage makes me wish Midna and Wolf Link could have made it in Brawl. That woulda been epic.
Smashville-OMG I HATE THIS MUSIC! THIS STAGE IS LIKE PRESCHOOLY! OMG ICKY ICKY EWW EWW EWW! But other than that, I have to say, a pretty even stage. It's long enough that it might favor some projectiles (I hate fighting Ice-Climbers here), but other than that, it's okay.
Rumble Falls-You're fighting the stage here more than you're fighting your opponent. Any stage that's like that deserves banishment into the deepest darkest pit it can be thrown into. Poor Ganondorf is suicidal if he tries to play here.
SkyWorld-Why is this stage banned? I know you can break the platforms and nail people through them, but still, I'd have thought that this stage would be cool, despite that one hazard. And it has okay music.
Castle Siege-I don't mind it too much. The top is a little too small for mmy tastes. I was expecting a huge battlefield. For the middle, people grapple spam so much, they should be expecting to be just walked off the sides. The Underworld is spooky, but nice, except that Ice Climbers can icicle spam once it starts tilting. It supports projectiles a lot when it's straight. Also, HOW DO YOU GO FROM HELL TO THE TOP OF A CASTLE!?!
Warioware-Fun, but a horrible stage. I DODGED THE ARROWS TOO! WHY DID HE GET A STAR WHILE I ONLY GOT A STUPID MUSHROOM! THAT'S BOGUS!
Pokemon Stadium 2-YAY! A NON GAY 2ND POKEMON STAGE! Except for the slight changes the Ice, Wind, and Electric Stages bring, it's a cool stage.
Haliberd-Hoping this one isn't completely banned. The stage doesn't really fight against you in this, and you have to be ******** to be koed by the lazer or bomb, or even the stage's initial lift-off (I love the computers in Classic Mode staying on the sides, watching me fly away. Bon-Voyage!)
Shadow Moses Island-I thought the Gears were attacking us, and that this stage would be insta banned. But no, it just has you locked into the middle until you break the walls, in which case, "GRAPPLE SPAM" TIME! Ugh. Any Stage with Walk offs is going to be looked down on, because everyone spams grabs now. But when the walls don't break, you can beat people into HIGH DAMAGE without them being able to stop you, 'cause they'll bounce off the walls and back into your fists. That's also cheap, so I can understand it being banned.
New Pork City-I HATE THIS STAGE! I CHASE AN ENEMY WHO HAS SUFFERED 300 DAMAGE FROM THE WALLS SAVING THEM FROM BEING KNOCKED AWAY, I RUN AROUND FOR 5 HOURS AFTER THEM, AND THE CHIMERA STEALS MY KILL AND THEN KILLS ME! SO GAY! STUPID CHIMERA! STUPID BIG STAGE! STUPID TRAP AREAS WHERE YOU GET LIKE INFINITE DAMAGE!
Picto Chat-Does anyone actually use the Picto-Chat function on the DS? This stage reminds me of the Pokemon Stadiums, except you can be hurt by it. It's not too bad, though.
The Summit-YAY! ICE-CLIMBERS GET A RESPECTABLE STAGE! Too bad that you're instantly killed by the sliding part of the ground, and by Fish in the Water. But atleast it has cool Music.
Norfair-I believe this stage should be banned. The Lava does way too much of the work in killing people and stealing kills. If you don't care about the lava and are fine with dodging it and grouping inside of the Bunker, then I guess it's okay. Ice Climber Projectile Spam on the above platforms to down platforms, but it's not quite as bad as you'd think. I seem to have an IC Inferiority Complex. I use to Main Ice-Cliimbers! Wait... HOW DO THEY MAKE ICE!?! AND HOW CAN THEY MAKE IT IN NORFAIR!?!
Mario Circuit-I'm surprized this one was banned. I didn't think the Carts did that much damage. But they can also limit where you can Brawl by most of the stage, and then there's the GRAPPLE SPAM WALK A WAY KOS!
Frigate Orpheon-Metroids scare me. They look like spiders. ;.; This coulda been a good Metroid Stage, but the fact that it spins around and can completely screw over a player in the process does not a fair match make.
Distant Planet-I CAN'T WAIT FOR PIKMIN 3! Hope it's not like this stage. It's not small, but with a waterfall keeping you from playing on the left hill (which is a walk off if it's not raining), items in the middle (although I personally enjoy the havok of item), and an evil Bulborb on the right side (STEROIDS ON ALIENS IS NOT GOOD!), the amount of area that can be "legitamently" played on shrinks to the size of a Pikmin. Speaking of which, the items in the background and such makes me question how big Olimar and the Pikmin really are, which makes me wonder how big Mario is. I'm confused now.
Mushroomy Kingdom-I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO JOG WITH THE STAGE IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO PLAY! OMG HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE! But enough said.
Port Town Aero Dive-Falcon will never get a good stage at this rate. Stupid Cars, and evil Floor, LET US BRAWL IN PEACE!
Final Destination-Omg the world's best music ever. I have it as one of my first Ipod Songs. As for the stage, expect projecile spam, but otherwize, an awesome, and beautiful stage.
Mario Bros.-Sorry dudes, but the rules were a lot better back then than now. This stage is so unfair. Uber Items, fireballs outa no where, walk a way kos, and traping platforms. This stage will never see compeditive play.
Green Hill Zone-I WISH WE COULD ACTUALLY FIGHT IN THE LOOP! AND OMG IT'S SILVER! YAY! If the ground wasn't break away, the walk away walls, and the check points so strong (a good way for kos, actually), this would be a perfect stage. And I love it's Music! Too bad projectile spams can occur a lot here.
Luigi's Mansion-Poor Luigi's gonna be homeless after a few Brawls. Too bad the ghosts rebuild it, including the walls that function as shields, and the platforms whicn seem to occasionally trap you. Luigi, invest in a good house!
Spear Pillar-WHY CAN'T LEGENDS MAKE A GOOD STAGE? From fliping and destroying the stage, slowing time, changing button controls, and blasting the players, this stage is worse than Wario Ware. Atleast in Wario Ware it tries to help people, while Dialga and Palkia attack us for their own amusement. CURSE YOU, EVIL LEGENDS!
75m-If you can't jump well, this is not a good stage for you. Fireballs, small platforms, walk away edges, and Cranky throwing Barrels at you does not a good stage make.
Hyrule Temple-From the invincibility caves to the huge size, I hate this stage. -.- The King should have kept it drowned under water forever.
Brinstar-BrinStar's Depths was better than Brinstar.... why'd they bring it back? Lava does not a good stage make!
Corneria-If Fox would have his wingmen sit the fight out, this stage would have been fine. It's not really a bad stage, just not a goodone, compeditively.
Jungle Japes-If the water didn't scroll you like Big Blue's ground, it would have been an awesome stage. But it looks like DK's stage is not quite what we need.
Pirate Ship-Fun, but too many potential hazards. From the Catapult, to the weird Island tilting the stage until it runs over it, to being run over by the ship itself, to the cannons in the back ground, to the whirlwind making water no longer safe, you have to consider a lot of variables to play this one. But it does have cool music.
Rainbow Cruise-Thankfully you don't spend too much time running around the stage than fighting your enemy. Not recommended, but not too bad either. I finally beat SM64.
Yoshi's Island Melee-If it wern't for the chain grabbers, this stage woulda been awesome. But there's a walk-off edge, and too many people can grab spam and capitalize on that.
Onett-not as many car issues as Mute City had, but kind of big for a stage, and not always a fair stage. And chasing people around isn't fun. And then there's the STUPID WALK OFF EDGES!
Green Greens-stupid bomb blocks. This would be fine without it. I kinda like WhispyWoods.
Big Blue-Unless you're capable of flying forever, this stage stinks. Touch the ground and you instantly get killed, and I dislike the cars. Maybe if the Falcon Flyer was a stage, it'd be cool.
Flatzone 2-THIS THING IS WORSE THAN FLATZONE 1! WALK AWAY WALLS, AND EVIL GAME WATCH PEOPLE KILLING YOU! GAME AND WATCH NIGHTMARE! GO AWAY GO AWAY!
Hanenbow-If that water was actually real, this stage wouldn't be as bad. But you can hit the leafs and prevent people from having an actual place to jump to. Comical for a person to almost jump far enough and you take the person's landing from them and then they fall into the water and die, but not good for fair games.
That should cover most of the stages, unless I'm forgetting any. I like chaos and havok, which is why I also like Items and Final Smashes. But for true games of skill, you shouldn't compete with the stage more than your enemy, and matches are to be more about skill than cheap tactics and luck. Wait, what am I saying? Everyone projectile and grapple spams, so the cheapness is obviously the thing to do. But matches shouldn't be about being lucky. They should be about skill. Everyone's all uber serious.
Battlefield-Prettymuch the fairest stage in Brawl. It doesn't seem like it gives anyone specific advantages or disadvanatages. I should play here more often.
Delfino Plaza-I don't think this is a "starter" stage, only because you risk an eazy KO by looking around the scenery as the actual stage moves around. But otherwize, it's a fun stage, and makes me wish that summer and bikini season would start soon.
Yoshi's Island DS-You have to be brain dead or have poor timing to be koed by the stage here. Those support ghosts are incredibly helpful. Not much you can say about it, except I ALWAYS SEEM TO FIGHT IN THE WINTER STAGE! ;.;
Lylat Cruise-First time I saw this, I thought we'd be bombarded by the fighters and the asteroids, and that it'd be crazy to play in. But it's boring now. And also, why do so many games ignore the laws of science? WE NEED AIR TO LIVE! AND ATMOSPHERES ARE VERY HOT!
Bridge of Eldin-It's banned because the elements make matches last long, since it's easy for players to stall games. That's no fair. But it's understandable. That, and people who use Projectiles can gimp those who have to cross the big gap much worse on this stage than on other stages. This stage makes me wish Midna and Wolf Link could have made it in Brawl. That woulda been epic.
Smashville-OMG I HATE THIS MUSIC! THIS STAGE IS LIKE PRESCHOOLY! OMG ICKY ICKY EWW EWW EWW! But other than that, I have to say, a pretty even stage. It's long enough that it might favor some projectiles (I hate fighting Ice-Climbers here), but other than that, it's okay.
Rumble Falls-You're fighting the stage here more than you're fighting your opponent. Any stage that's like that deserves banishment into the deepest darkest pit it can be thrown into. Poor Ganondorf is suicidal if he tries to play here.
SkyWorld-Why is this stage banned? I know you can break the platforms and nail people through them, but still, I'd have thought that this stage would be cool, despite that one hazard. And it has okay music.
Castle Siege-I don't mind it too much. The top is a little too small for mmy tastes. I was expecting a huge battlefield. For the middle, people grapple spam so much, they should be expecting to be just walked off the sides. The Underworld is spooky, but nice, except that Ice Climbers can icicle spam once it starts tilting. It supports projectiles a lot when it's straight. Also, HOW DO YOU GO FROM HELL TO THE TOP OF A CASTLE!?!
Warioware-Fun, but a horrible stage. I DODGED THE ARROWS TOO! WHY DID HE GET A STAR WHILE I ONLY GOT A STUPID MUSHROOM! THAT'S BOGUS!
Pokemon Stadium 2-YAY! A NON GAY 2ND POKEMON STAGE! Except for the slight changes the Ice, Wind, and Electric Stages bring, it's a cool stage.
Haliberd-Hoping this one isn't completely banned. The stage doesn't really fight against you in this, and you have to be ******** to be koed by the lazer or bomb, or even the stage's initial lift-off (I love the computers in Classic Mode staying on the sides, watching me fly away. Bon-Voyage!)
Shadow Moses Island-I thought the Gears were attacking us, and that this stage would be insta banned. But no, it just has you locked into the middle until you break the walls, in which case, "GRAPPLE SPAM" TIME! Ugh. Any Stage with Walk offs is going to be looked down on, because everyone spams grabs now. But when the walls don't break, you can beat people into HIGH DAMAGE without them being able to stop you, 'cause they'll bounce off the walls and back into your fists. That's also cheap, so I can understand it being banned.
New Pork City-I HATE THIS STAGE! I CHASE AN ENEMY WHO HAS SUFFERED 300 DAMAGE FROM THE WALLS SAVING THEM FROM BEING KNOCKED AWAY, I RUN AROUND FOR 5 HOURS AFTER THEM, AND THE CHIMERA STEALS MY KILL AND THEN KILLS ME! SO GAY! STUPID CHIMERA! STUPID BIG STAGE! STUPID TRAP AREAS WHERE YOU GET LIKE INFINITE DAMAGE!
Picto Chat-Does anyone actually use the Picto-Chat function on the DS? This stage reminds me of the Pokemon Stadiums, except you can be hurt by it. It's not too bad, though.
The Summit-YAY! ICE-CLIMBERS GET A RESPECTABLE STAGE! Too bad that you're instantly killed by the sliding part of the ground, and by Fish in the Water. But atleast it has cool Music.
Norfair-I believe this stage should be banned. The Lava does way too much of the work in killing people and stealing kills. If you don't care about the lava and are fine with dodging it and grouping inside of the Bunker, then I guess it's okay. Ice Climber Projectile Spam on the above platforms to down platforms, but it's not quite as bad as you'd think. I seem to have an IC Inferiority Complex. I use to Main Ice-Cliimbers! Wait... HOW DO THEY MAKE ICE!?! AND HOW CAN THEY MAKE IT IN NORFAIR!?!
Mario Circuit-I'm surprized this one was banned. I didn't think the Carts did that much damage. But they can also limit where you can Brawl by most of the stage, and then there's the GRAPPLE SPAM WALK A WAY KOS!
Frigate Orpheon-Metroids scare me. They look like spiders. ;.; This coulda been a good Metroid Stage, but the fact that it spins around and can completely screw over a player in the process does not a fair match make.
Distant Planet-I CAN'T WAIT FOR PIKMIN 3! Hope it's not like this stage. It's not small, but with a waterfall keeping you from playing on the left hill (which is a walk off if it's not raining), items in the middle (although I personally enjoy the havok of item), and an evil Bulborb on the right side (STEROIDS ON ALIENS IS NOT GOOD!), the amount of area that can be "legitamently" played on shrinks to the size of a Pikmin. Speaking of which, the items in the background and such makes me question how big Olimar and the Pikmin really are, which makes me wonder how big Mario is. I'm confused now.
Mushroomy Kingdom-I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO JOG WITH THE STAGE IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO PLAY! OMG HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE! But enough said.
Port Town Aero Dive-Falcon will never get a good stage at this rate. Stupid Cars, and evil Floor, LET US BRAWL IN PEACE!
Final Destination-Omg the world's best music ever. I have it as one of my first Ipod Songs. As for the stage, expect projecile spam, but otherwize, an awesome, and beautiful stage.
Mario Bros.-Sorry dudes, but the rules were a lot better back then than now. This stage is so unfair. Uber Items, fireballs outa no where, walk a way kos, and traping platforms. This stage will never see compeditive play.
Green Hill Zone-I WISH WE COULD ACTUALLY FIGHT IN THE LOOP! AND OMG IT'S SILVER! YAY! If the ground wasn't break away, the walk away walls, and the check points so strong (a good way for kos, actually), this would be a perfect stage. And I love it's Music! Too bad projectile spams can occur a lot here.
Luigi's Mansion-Poor Luigi's gonna be homeless after a few Brawls. Too bad the ghosts rebuild it, including the walls that function as shields, and the platforms whicn seem to occasionally trap you. Luigi, invest in a good house!
Spear Pillar-WHY CAN'T LEGENDS MAKE A GOOD STAGE? From fliping and destroying the stage, slowing time, changing button controls, and blasting the players, this stage is worse than Wario Ware. Atleast in Wario Ware it tries to help people, while Dialga and Palkia attack us for their own amusement. CURSE YOU, EVIL LEGENDS!
75m-If you can't jump well, this is not a good stage for you. Fireballs, small platforms, walk away edges, and Cranky throwing Barrels at you does not a good stage make.
Hyrule Temple-From the invincibility caves to the huge size, I hate this stage. -.- The King should have kept it drowned under water forever.
Brinstar-BrinStar's Depths was better than Brinstar.... why'd they bring it back? Lava does not a good stage make!
Corneria-If Fox would have his wingmen sit the fight out, this stage would have been fine. It's not really a bad stage, just not a goodone, compeditively.
Jungle Japes-If the water didn't scroll you like Big Blue's ground, it would have been an awesome stage. But it looks like DK's stage is not quite what we need.
Pirate Ship-Fun, but too many potential hazards. From the Catapult, to the weird Island tilting the stage until it runs over it, to being run over by the ship itself, to the cannons in the back ground, to the whirlwind making water no longer safe, you have to consider a lot of variables to play this one. But it does have cool music.
Rainbow Cruise-Thankfully you don't spend too much time running around the stage than fighting your enemy. Not recommended, but not too bad either. I finally beat SM64.
Yoshi's Island Melee-If it wern't for the chain grabbers, this stage woulda been awesome. But there's a walk-off edge, and too many people can grab spam and capitalize on that.
Onett-not as many car issues as Mute City had, but kind of big for a stage, and not always a fair stage. And chasing people around isn't fun. And then there's the STUPID WALK OFF EDGES!
Green Greens-stupid bomb blocks. This would be fine without it. I kinda like WhispyWoods.
Big Blue-Unless you're capable of flying forever, this stage stinks. Touch the ground and you instantly get killed, and I dislike the cars. Maybe if the Falcon Flyer was a stage, it'd be cool.
Flatzone 2-THIS THING IS WORSE THAN FLATZONE 1! WALK AWAY WALLS, AND EVIL GAME WATCH PEOPLE KILLING YOU! GAME AND WATCH NIGHTMARE! GO AWAY GO AWAY!
Hanenbow-If that water was actually real, this stage wouldn't be as bad. But you can hit the leafs and prevent people from having an actual place to jump to. Comical for a person to almost jump far enough and you take the person's landing from them and then they fall into the water and die, but not good for fair games.
That should cover most of the stages, unless I'm forgetting any. I like chaos and havok, which is why I also like Items and Final Smashes. But for true games of skill, you shouldn't compete with the stage more than your enemy, and matches are to be more about skill than cheap tactics and luck. Wait, what am I saying? Everyone projectile and grapple spams, so the cheapness is obviously the thing to do. But matches shouldn't be about being lucky. They should be about skill. Everyone's all uber serious.
Da-D-Mon-109
Smash Lord
We should work on making Brawl fair for everyone to play, Stages included.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I honestly think Big Blue is just a counterpick for aerial characters. Jiggs can actually have a chance to place if we have this, and is that a bad thing? I think Falco getting a better chance on FD is a bad thing, honestly. He's good enough already.
My Verdict: Legal Counterpick.
Also, the reason for banning Rumble Falls is not fighting the stage, nor the temporary walk offs (they're easily avoidable; just jump to a different level). It's this:
Kirby
If he grabs, it's over for you. uThrow kills instantly on this level, and Kirby can fast fall through the platforms to survive.
My Verdict: Illegal; Ban.
My Verdict: Legal Counterpick.
Also, the reason for banning Rumble Falls is not fighting the stage, nor the temporary walk offs (they're easily avoidable; just jump to a different level). It's this:
Kirby
If he grabs, it's over for you. uThrow kills instantly on this level, and Kirby can fast fall through the platforms to survive.
My Verdict: Illegal; Ban.
infomon
Smash Scientist
Yeah, I guess giving MK an instant-kill grab is kind of over-powered 
Linkshot, did you actually playtest Kirby's up throw on Rumble Falls? I just had a thirlling series against the level 9 AI where I spammed it (this was a new suggestion for the stage being broken to me), and it doesn't seem broken. It pretty seldom actually kills (seldom enough that you can memorize the course well enough to avoid it), and it's pretty hard to land grabs on Rumble Falls anyway. It's really not any better than it is on Rainbow Cruise. By the way, up throw into the spikes is hilarious. More often than not, Kirby seems to die and not the target. Sometimes they both die. It's crazy, but it's not really good for Kirby. Well, Rumble Falls is obviously good for Kirby for several reasons, but I don't see evidence that it's broken for Kirby. If you guys want a crazy stage for your next smashfest, why not this one?
It's cool to see people actually playing on Big Blue and giving it a shot. Yeah infzy, your assessment that Big Blue kinda stinks but isn't clearly broken is about where I am with that level. It seems pretty wrong to me to ban a level for being disagreeable, but politics wise it will never be mainstream legal anyway. I think Brawl's bigger focus on aerial combat and lesser focus on shine spiking make Big Blue a better stage now than it used to be though!
Anyway, Green Greens.
Green Greens
Why it isn't broken: Green Greens has three main "bad" features. It has destructible walls, apples spawned as items, and exploding bomb blocks. Let's start with the walls. The walls on Green Greens seem quite problematic at first, but the fact is that they can be destroyed. This gives every character a solid counter tactic to the walls, and most forms of abuse on the walls are far harder to pull off because the attacker hitting the walls ends the abuse. Even more, the wind from the tree occasionally steps in and interrupts would be infinites. I am not saying this stage's walls are never abused, but compared to all other walls in the game, they are pretty benign and offer fair amounts of opportunity to avoid them. The second concern is the apples. Apples, when spawned, do one of three things. They most commonly sit on the ground as throwable items. They are decently strong but not incredibly so, and they offer pretty similar opportunities to all players. It's hard to see how the throwable apples could be broken. Usually several apples spawn at once even so each player tends to get at least one. Less commonly, the apples can heal. Each apple heals 8%, and it is so rare that it is very negligible. Even more, all players have pretty equal opportunity at the healing; it's not a big deal at all. The last possibility is exploding, and the good news here is that there's a bit of a delay after an apple spawns before it explodes. This is very rare, and it pretty much only happens to players who choose to stay next to an apple after it spawns. It adds a small amount of risk to chasing apples and otherwise has no effect on the game. The last concern are bomb blocks, and their saving grace is that they are predictable. Blocks spawn at the top of the screen and fall straight down only when the highest position on the column of blocks below them is unfilled. Players know at all times where bomb blocks are and are likely to be. It is very realistic for players to position to have no chance at being hit ever for the entire match. Bomb blocks do 20% damage and don't kill until pretty high damage so they are not devastating to be hit by even if they should generally be avoided. There is randomness to these actions on the stage, but a smart player can easily prevent 100% of "random deaths" here.
Some worry about below the stage games here, but honestly those are just stalling that is possible on many other stages. Most stages in this game allow players to pass underneath, and characters like Meta Knight and Pit are pretty much unstoppable if they decide to just hang out under the level and stall. Any reasonable tournament bans this, and with Green Greens it is the same. Green Greens does have an abnormally high number of ledges, but even with just the two on Smashville the stalling Meta Knight was not going to be stopped. Why hold it against Green Greens if a broken and ban-worthy tactic is even better here? The only remaining concern is the exploding field glitch, and frankly it's a very unimportant concern. The exploding field is just a bomb block that, for reasons that are still mysterious, remains perpetually and invisibly exploding. It's incredibly rare (I know of no documented tournament matches where it has happened), and when it does happen players can very reasonably react to it and continue the match fairly.
What it adds to the game: Green Greens is a small stage with small side platforms that is a valuable counterpick for many characters. Powerhouses such as Ike love this stage because of their amazing killing power here with a smaller focus on recovery, but certain characters who have moves with higher base knockback but worse growth such as Peach have been known to favor this stage. The platform layout is completely unique as well, and this stage has a fair number of stage specific strategies that evolve from its unique features. A lot is lost by banning this stage; it offers things that just aren't available on the other 41.
It's cool to see people actually playing on Big Blue and giving it a shot. Yeah infzy, your assessment that Big Blue kinda stinks but isn't clearly broken is about where I am with that level. It seems pretty wrong to me to ban a level for being disagreeable, but politics wise it will never be mainstream legal anyway. I think Brawl's bigger focus on aerial combat and lesser focus on shine spiking make Big Blue a better stage now than it used to be though!
Anyway, Green Greens.
Green Greens
Why it isn't broken: Green Greens has three main "bad" features. It has destructible walls, apples spawned as items, and exploding bomb blocks. Let's start with the walls. The walls on Green Greens seem quite problematic at first, but the fact is that they can be destroyed. This gives every character a solid counter tactic to the walls, and most forms of abuse on the walls are far harder to pull off because the attacker hitting the walls ends the abuse. Even more, the wind from the tree occasionally steps in and interrupts would be infinites. I am not saying this stage's walls are never abused, but compared to all other walls in the game, they are pretty benign and offer fair amounts of opportunity to avoid them. The second concern is the apples. Apples, when spawned, do one of three things. They most commonly sit on the ground as throwable items. They are decently strong but not incredibly so, and they offer pretty similar opportunities to all players. It's hard to see how the throwable apples could be broken. Usually several apples spawn at once even so each player tends to get at least one. Less commonly, the apples can heal. Each apple heals 8%, and it is so rare that it is very negligible. Even more, all players have pretty equal opportunity at the healing; it's not a big deal at all. The last possibility is exploding, and the good news here is that there's a bit of a delay after an apple spawns before it explodes. This is very rare, and it pretty much only happens to players who choose to stay next to an apple after it spawns. It adds a small amount of risk to chasing apples and otherwise has no effect on the game. The last concern are bomb blocks, and their saving grace is that they are predictable. Blocks spawn at the top of the screen and fall straight down only when the highest position on the column of blocks below them is unfilled. Players know at all times where bomb blocks are and are likely to be. It is very realistic for players to position to have no chance at being hit ever for the entire match. Bomb blocks do 20% damage and don't kill until pretty high damage so they are not devastating to be hit by even if they should generally be avoided. There is randomness to these actions on the stage, but a smart player can easily prevent 100% of "random deaths" here.
Some worry about below the stage games here, but honestly those are just stalling that is possible on many other stages. Most stages in this game allow players to pass underneath, and characters like Meta Knight and Pit are pretty much unstoppable if they decide to just hang out under the level and stall. Any reasonable tournament bans this, and with Green Greens it is the same. Green Greens does have an abnormally high number of ledges, but even with just the two on Smashville the stalling Meta Knight was not going to be stopped. Why hold it against Green Greens if a broken and ban-worthy tactic is even better here? The only remaining concern is the exploding field glitch, and frankly it's a very unimportant concern. The exploding field is just a bomb block that, for reasons that are still mysterious, remains perpetually and invisibly exploding. It's incredibly rare (I know of no documented tournament matches where it has happened), and when it does happen players can very reasonably react to it and continue the match fairly.
What it adds to the game: Green Greens is a small stage with small side platforms that is a valuable counterpick for many characters. Powerhouses such as Ike love this stage because of their amazing killing power here with a smaller focus on recovery, but certain characters who have moves with higher base knockback but worse growth such as Peach have been known to favor this stage. The platform layout is completely unique as well, and this stage has a fair number of stage specific strategies that evolve from its unique features. A lot is lost by banning this stage; it offers things that just aren't available on the other 41.
ok seriousy.. someone who's at least good with metaknight and cares about this, go play someone on GG's and plank the hell out of it... don't "excessively" camp, but use the ledges // going under the level when ever it is a good idea... play smart and I guarantee that it should be banned
Planking that involves going under the level is pretty much broken on every stage (well, most of them). It's the same thing. Should we ban Smashville?
Here's a full list.
Battlefield, Final Destination, Delfino Plaza (when airborne), Norfair, Frigate Orpheon (both forms, first form requires you to land on the stage), Halberd (when airborne), Lylat Cruise, Smashville, New Pork City, Skyworld, 75m, Hanenbow, Temple, Jungle Japes, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise (on the ship), Green Greens, Brinstar
Here's a full list.
Battlefield, Final Destination, Delfino Plaza (when airborne), Norfair, Frigate Orpheon (both forms, first form requires you to land on the stage), Halberd (when airborne), Lylat Cruise, Smashville, New Pork City, Skyworld, 75m, Hanenbow, Temple, Jungle Japes, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise (on the ship), Green Greens, Brinstar
infomon
Smash Scientist
I don't mind green greens, but apart from under-the-stage stalling, I'd worry about ppl just staying on different sides of the walls and being afraid to cross. Not sure if (m)any matchups would degenerate to that at a high-level, though.
CHAOSvsORDER
Smash Journeyman
Linkshot actually did pull off some kirby throw crap, but we only played on RF maybe twice. As for the smashfest, it was a biweekly so testers were sparce. We didn't test bigblue that much. Some people didn't want to test it much more than once or twice. Everyone can agree that it's a garbage stage, but the comments on it were mixed. Some said it was the worst and most horrible, some said it wasn't as bad as they thought it'd be. In anycase, I'll be testing much more next friday if the players in my community are more willing. I think that others people on this thread should get together with people in their community and test it out as well. At least for 2 hours, then we'll all be a lot more informed on it.
Titanium Dragon
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2004
- Messages
- 247
I have it on random on my Wii, so I play it fairly often, and back in the day of Melee, one of the GCs I played it on had it on random as well, so I'm rather used to it. Its really not that bad as long as you know what to do and how to deal with it. Yeah, you can't always see the ground, but if you're smart you won't die from it unless your opponent spikes you into it when you thought you were over a car - and if they do that, more power to them. You can also kill yourself by putting yourself in certain situations, but if you know what those are (such as, say, going way far back on a car which is going to drift off the back of the stage as a character like Ganondorf, when there aren't any platforms near you, a situation which is easily avoided if you know it is dangerous) its not a big deal, and there are other stages you have to learn about such things on (Rainbow Road, for instance).
thanortinzak
Smash Apprentice
Why is it that even the TOP PROS want to ban stages? Whenever someone says the Chaingrab/Projectile Spam Gimp/the obstacles/the hazards, etc are cheap, I simply say "No Johns". Top pros frown on people who "John", right? Then why are the "Johning" when they hit hazards/get Projectile Spam Gimped/get hurt by the obstacles and hazards, etc?
Please explain why pros like banning stages.
Please explain why pros like banning stages.
I will give a gentle answer before you get a ton of not so gentle answers.
Basically, no matter how you look at it, a few stages are just broken. Stages with loops are unplayable at high levels because they just reward running away and spamming projectiles. If you have a lower mobility than the runner, you literally can't win. For instance, Falco vs Bowser on Spear Pillar. Falco's strategy here is to shoot lasers at Bowser and run away. If Falco runs out of stage, he jumps to the other level and keeps running. It simply doesn't matter how good the Bowser player is; he automatically loses. At best he absolutely never gets hit and we have an icky tie. It's not like flying under stages to stall either. Just running around on the stage is something we should be very loathe to limit with rules, and running away and spamming projectiles is very clearly not stalling no matter what. We obviously have to remove stages like that so the game doesn't degenerate. That makes us lose...
Spear Pillar, New Pork City, Summit, 75m, Mario Bros., Hanenbow, Temple
Beyond that, WarioWare obviously has to be banned. WarioWare's random rewards are simply a bigger factor in the match than skill among players who are even reasonably close in ability. There's no way to prevent the opponent from winning some of the games, and once the opponent does, the opponent could get a ridiculously powerful boost completely at random. At the highest levels, WarioWare would mean that tournament results would essentially be randomized. That's just not acceptable.
Once you get past that, you already have to concede the principle that banning stages is okay (this game is really very terrible at high levels if you don't ban those stages, seriously). A few other stages that have incredibly extreme character bias are pretty much agreed upon to be removed by everyone (Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2, Bridge of Eldin, and Shadow Moses Island). From there you are into the part where we spent over 200 pages arguing. King Dedede is indeed very, very overpowered in about 23 matchups on Mario Circuit and Green Hill Zone. Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 is a bad stage on a lot of levels between King Dedede being able to abuse it very badly and it really rewarding projectile spamming and generally not being very fair. Some people (actually most people) want to ban Big Blue and Rumble Falls for being too unlike the other stages and having elements of questionable fairness. We have controversies over randomness on Green Greens and hazards on Port Town and walls on Onett and really all sorts of things. Rather than just being mad at stage making rules in general, you could do some actual good if you familiarized yourself with the issues some stages present.
There is further controversy about stages, by the way. Only banning that which is broken is one path, and it is the path most people in this particular topic support. However, there's another philosophy common among tournament level players that seeks to remove everything but the "most fair" stages and that generally dislikes stages as an element in the game. It's innocent until proven guilty versus guilty until proven innocent, and the current political trends are toward "constructing" a stage list out of the stages you decide to allow instead of banning only the minimum. People like you are a bit frustrating to be honest; your position is obviously just not workable, but if you and people like you understood the issues behind these stages better you would probably support the position of banning as little as possible which would be of value.
Basically, no matter how you look at it, a few stages are just broken. Stages with loops are unplayable at high levels because they just reward running away and spamming projectiles. If you have a lower mobility than the runner, you literally can't win. For instance, Falco vs Bowser on Spear Pillar. Falco's strategy here is to shoot lasers at Bowser and run away. If Falco runs out of stage, he jumps to the other level and keeps running. It simply doesn't matter how good the Bowser player is; he automatically loses. At best he absolutely never gets hit and we have an icky tie. It's not like flying under stages to stall either. Just running around on the stage is something we should be very loathe to limit with rules, and running away and spamming projectiles is very clearly not stalling no matter what. We obviously have to remove stages like that so the game doesn't degenerate. That makes us lose...
Spear Pillar, New Pork City, Summit, 75m, Mario Bros., Hanenbow, Temple
Beyond that, WarioWare obviously has to be banned. WarioWare's random rewards are simply a bigger factor in the match than skill among players who are even reasonably close in ability. There's no way to prevent the opponent from winning some of the games, and once the opponent does, the opponent could get a ridiculously powerful boost completely at random. At the highest levels, WarioWare would mean that tournament results would essentially be randomized. That's just not acceptable.
Once you get past that, you already have to concede the principle that banning stages is okay (this game is really very terrible at high levels if you don't ban those stages, seriously). A few other stages that have incredibly extreme character bias are pretty much agreed upon to be removed by everyone (Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2, Bridge of Eldin, and Shadow Moses Island). From there you are into the part where we spent over 200 pages arguing. King Dedede is indeed very, very overpowered in about 23 matchups on Mario Circuit and Green Hill Zone. Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 is a bad stage on a lot of levels between King Dedede being able to abuse it very badly and it really rewarding projectile spamming and generally not being very fair. Some people (actually most people) want to ban Big Blue and Rumble Falls for being too unlike the other stages and having elements of questionable fairness. We have controversies over randomness on Green Greens and hazards on Port Town and walls on Onett and really all sorts of things. Rather than just being mad at stage making rules in general, you could do some actual good if you familiarized yourself with the issues some stages present.
There is further controversy about stages, by the way. Only banning that which is broken is one path, and it is the path most people in this particular topic support. However, there's another philosophy common among tournament level players that seeks to remove everything but the "most fair" stages and that generally dislikes stages as an element in the game. It's innocent until proven guilty versus guilty until proven innocent, and the current political trends are toward "constructing" a stage list out of the stages you decide to allow instead of banning only the minimum. People like you are a bit frustrating to be honest; your position is obviously just not workable, but if you and people like you understood the issues behind these stages better you would probably support the position of banning as little as possible which would be of value.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
I have two questions regarding stage legality.
1. Why is Luigi's Mansion still a legal counterpick? (or am I not looking hard enough and its banned? lol)
2. Why is Rainbow Cruise still a legal counterpick? (This can severely reward those with multiple jumps, fast up-B's, and good aerial manuevariblity. Compared to those who are going in circles up and down the stage to try and attack their opponents. (Eg; MK vs multiple characters)
Luigi's I can actually understand to a degree. But Rainbow Cruise?
Also, if stages were banned because King DeDeDe was overpowered on them, could I propose the MK on both of the above stages argument? In a tournament setting, if you ban one they pick the other. It's that simple, you simply cannot ban both. It's a matter of "do you want to be planked, or 1 char omnigayed?"
1. Why is Luigi's Mansion still a legal counterpick? (or am I not looking hard enough and its banned? lol)
2. Why is Rainbow Cruise still a legal counterpick? (This can severely reward those with multiple jumps, fast up-B's, and good aerial manuevariblity. Compared to those who are going in circles up and down the stage to try and attack their opponents. (Eg; MK vs multiple characters)
Luigi's I can actually understand to a degree. But Rainbow Cruise?
Also, if stages were banned because King DeDeDe was overpowered on them, could I propose the MK on both of the above stages argument? In a tournament setting, if you ban one they pick the other. It's that simple, you simply cannot ban both. It's a matter of "do you want to be planked, or 1 char omnigayed?"
infomon
Smash Scientist
AA's last post was amazing, srsly.
Havokk: is Rainbow Cruise really an insta-win for MK? I know it's bad for a lot of chars, but I don't see it being that broken for MK. Is there a single dominating strategy to it?
Havokk: is Rainbow Cruise really an insta-win for MK? I know it's bad for a lot of chars, but I don't see it being that broken for MK. Is there a single dominating strategy to it?
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Dsmash and Up-B.
Seems like it.
Unless I'm just a horribad player, who 3 stocks the opponent the round before, then gets omnigayed on RC, with my opponent literally using 3 moves.
Dsmash
up-B
uthrow
And I -practice- those stages so that **** doesn't happen to me.
The day I beat an MK on RC is the day I start using Ganon vs Samus.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Havokk, come to Ottawa. It's the #1 place to train for Rainbow Cruise practice XD
dSmash Shuttle Loop is a winning (not instant) strategy everywhere. Less so on Rainbow because you can die easier.
dSmash Shuttle Loop is a winning (not instant) strategy everywhere. Less so on Rainbow because you can die easier.
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
I think Bridge of Eldin,Hyrule Temple and Shadow Moses Island should be moved to Counter/Banned... They are cool stages (Especially fights on SMI are EP!C) and if you say "walk off Stage ;(" then i want to know why green hill zone is a counter xD Corneria has teh Wall Infinit wall... IF THATS THE REASON THEN SIMPLE BAN TEHINFINITS (OR ON HT THE ESCAPING) !!! simply -.-
Frigatte Orpheon and Picto Chat should move to Starter/Counter... The stage hazards arent that bad like the others in the list.
Lylat Cruise should move to Starter maybe... It's somehow like YI or SV with the moving platform(s), on LC its simple the edge
Frigatte Orpheon and Picto Chat should move to Starter/Counter... The stage hazards arent that bad like the others in the list.
Lylat Cruise should move to Starter maybe... It's somehow like YI or SV with the moving platform(s), on LC its simple the edge
Kage Me
Smash Ace
Green Hill Zone has the spinny thing and holes in the ground that interrupt chaingrabs. Corneria is big enough to avoid the wall altogether.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Except the one more confident with their wall infinites will camp at the wall and wait.
There aren't many wall infinites to begin with, and you can just approach from the back. with the enemy to the wall.
Actual wall infinites:
King Dedede against characters he can chaingrab
Diddy Kong banana locks
Release grabs (only apply for Ness and Lucas on ground breaks, and for jump breaks many characters grab the fin on Corneria and escape).
That's it I think. Everything else can be SDI'd out of or ends as the percentage of the opponent grows. The release grabs and banana locks are also pretty tricky to set up so it's not like you just fall into a wall infinite unless it's a King Dedede wall infinite...
Actual wall infinites:
King Dedede against characters he can chaingrab
Diddy Kong banana locks
Release grabs (only apply for Ness and Lucas on ground breaks, and for jump breaks many characters grab the fin on Corneria and escape).
That's it I think. Everything else can be SDI'd out of or ends as the percentage of the opponent grows. The release grabs and banana locks are also pretty tricky to set up so it's not like you just fall into a wall infinite unless it's a King Dedede wall infinite...
Linkshot
Smash Hero
The Pseudo-infinites end so high, though, that they're able to 0-death.
Titanium Dragon
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2004
- Messages
- 247
No. None of those are even plausibly legal. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't understand SSBB on a level sufficient to say anything useful about stage legality.
Walls, too difficult to kill, circle camping, walk off edges. SMI and BoE are both GG for DeDeDe, while Hyrule Temple is just so easy to circle camp on.
infomon
Smash Scientist
The funny thing about banana locks is that I suspect a lot of characters are capable of them, if they get Diddy's bananas.
It doesn't change your statement, it's just funny
MysticKenji
Smash Master
That seems to require absolutely perfect spacing to prevent the tech (is it clear there is no chance for it even then?). Mr. Game & Watch can usually tech the down throw.
Really though, it goes back to my fundamental point that other than some release grab nonsense that is really hard to actually get, most wall infinites come down to King Dedede's down throw or Diddy Kong's bananas. The pseudo-infinites like assorted dtilt stuff is frequently pretty easy to SDI out of or, failing at that, requires some pretty exacting spacing. I think walls are one of the most overblown problems a stage can have. Yeah there's some abuse, but it's not as easy to get or as powerful as some people seem to think it is...
Really though, it goes back to my fundamental point that other than some release grab nonsense that is really hard to actually get, most wall infinites come down to King Dedede's down throw or Diddy Kong's bananas. The pseudo-infinites like assorted dtilt stuff is frequently pretty easy to SDI out of or, failing at that, requires some pretty exacting spacing. I think walls are one of the most overblown problems a stage can have. Yeah there's some abuse, but it's not as easy to get or as powerful as some people seem to think it is...
Kage Me
Smash Ace
So camp elsewhere. Problem solved.
Kage Me
Smash Ace
We're on Corneria. If he camps out behind the wall, any character can camp back.
no... lol... i play rob... try camping me without putting on pressure... I win... other characters can definitely out-camp rob, but not when I'm hiding behind a wall too... im just sayin', if you're say, metaknight/kirby/luigi/olimar/dk etc. etc., then you _have_ to approach me and fight me down there
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Considering the fact that the opponent has a choice on their character after the stage is chosen, they can simply choose someone who has no issue with the camping.
Of course i can always use Sonic and wait for you to stop camping since you won't be hitting me either.
Of course i can always use Sonic and wait for you to stop camping since you won't be hitting me either.
infomon
Smash Scientist
ShadowLink's a better Sonic than me, he might have more success.... but yeah I can't legitimately run away from buenob's ROB on hanenbow, lolllz.
Is it widely agreed that if a stage removes any character from viability, it should be banned?
If so, then we'd just have to pick some particular matchups and prove they become 100:0 on that stage. It might be nontrivial to do this, but worth exploring, since it's something concrete.
Is it widely agreed that if a stage removes any character from viability, it should be banned?
If so, then we'd just have to pick some particular matchups and prove they become 100:0 on that stage. It might be nontrivial to do this, but worth exploring, since it's something concrete.
Kage Me
Smash Ace
You know that works both ways, right?
Linkshot
Smash Hero
It doesn't, really. Not with ROB. He can just jump up and fire a laser+gyro. You then have to approach to win.
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