PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

Ref · Jan 12, 2009

I think the Ness vs. Ness match up is done... It's like 90-10 because of the no contest screen. Without it's 100-0 Ness.

Wave⁂ · Jan 12, 2009

Where's that pic from the Melee Ness boards (good times...) of a ditto and a blackboard and stuff? That was awesome.

CometStar · Jan 13, 2009

Grab release chains are fun to do in Ness dittos. As a Ness main you should know your weaknesses, and take advantage of them when you play dittos.
100-0 (autowin) Ness :D

PKNintendo · Jan 13, 2009

What should we do now?

Shaky · Jan 13, 2009

Pokemon Trainer?

Earthbound Zero · Jan 13, 2009

I think we should do Marth or Yoshi. :D

Ref · Jan 13, 2009

I say Yoshi but I don't know much about it...

_clinton · Jan 13, 2009

Yoshi should be next...

Neon Ness · Jan 13, 2009

Let's do

.

Asa · Jan 13, 2009

yoshi would be nice. didn't we do snake?

Neon Ness · Jan 13, 2009

Yoshi's not even listed in the first post.

What the

?

jalued · Jan 16, 2009

any machup advice for GW and lucario? i am trying to work out who to use vs each character, and since ness is one of my mains, and vs lucario atm my 2 other chars are at about (40/60) and (45/55), just hoping he does ok vs him. i know GW is prob a very bad machup though

Shiri · Jan 16, 2009

Ness should be grabbing a lot.

Ness' best weapon in the Yoshi matchup is dash grab and maybe spaced forward airs.

Ness should also be counterpicking to really gay stages so he can abuse the fact that he's one of the few characters that can consistently break Yoshi's double jump (if he lands it, which is much tougher than people think) for real. Ness' down air breaks the jump at 0%, but Yoshi knows (and if he doesn't, he'll know immediately after) and you'll be hard pressed to land it very often, which is why you'll want some gay stages to help you out.

Ness lacks good options to KO aside from the grab and down air in this matchup simply because Yoshi has no reason to go in the air to get intercepted by up aerial and every other KO move Ness has is horizontally-based, or can be DI'd horizontally. As such, even breaking the jump with something like a back aerial (as unlikely as that may be) can see Yoshi using eggs and his natural air speed to bring himself to the edge with no problem.

Oh yeah, be really gay with PK Thunder, too, that mess is annoying. >_>

I don't do ratios, so you guys can call it as you see it, but I think Ness should be playing super gay and annoying since I don't think going head-to-head with Yoshi at mid and close range is a good idea for him. Yoshi is the better mid and close range fighter here, but Ness can sneak in nasty surprises with enough patience.

P.S. - I know you guys main Ness, but please don't bring up PK Fire for this matchup. I don't know how you guys feel about that move, but it doesn't belong in this matchup at all.

Gaussis · Jan 16, 2009

Yeah, PK Fire is probably one of Ness's more situational moves in terms of usefulness. If anything, it will be used to approach (PK Jump) or for spacing but apart from that it doesn't really do much.

Ness's biggest advantage in the matchup is his range against Yoshi. However, Ness also has to worry about Yoshi's defensive range as well. The bad thing about the matchup for Ness is that Yoshi has the superior midrange game and it's difficult to keep close to Yoshi at all times. From that range, Yoshi has his eggs and his pivot grab. However, I do strongly believe that Ness has a better close and long range game (slightly better for long range, though).

Ness's two main approaches should be with fair and dair. However, Yoshi will attempt to keep Ness in midrange to as to keep the advantage since he shouldn't rely on his shield. Ness could conceivably approach with DA or a grab, but it's important not to.

I'm not sure how PKT reacts with Yoshi's shield, but it probably doesn't matter since it won't shieldpoke him at all.

That's all for now

Gindler · Jan 16, 2009

I seconday Ness and I can safely say that compared to yoshi, I have alot easier of a time KOing with Ness, Bthrow, Dair, and PKT2 are all so nice.

If yoshi plays really annoying it can be tough though, mainly the pivot grab and egg toss (aka, a campy yoshi). I've grabbed Ness' out of pkt2 (the latter part, not the invincible amazing KO part of course), and fair repeatably, that Dair is really tricky for some reason though I don't know what it is so I'd probably use that as an approach. I'm sure all will agree that yoshi actually has the better recovery, although I do know Ness' recovery is pretty underrated itself. Try unleashing project omega as well since most people have no idea what that actually is.

Not sure what the ratio is but from my experience with the two of them I'd say Ness has the advantage in this matchup. Mostly just because of the fact that yoshi's approaches are limited thanks to Ness' Utilt (underrated move) and his Fair. I'll try thinking of a ratio sometime

_clinton · Jan 16, 2009

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201922

Mmac thinks Ness has the + by 5 or so for whatever reason...but I don't really care right now...

ColinJF · Jan 17, 2009

I agree with Ness having a small advantage over Yoshi.

I don't understand Shiri's pk fire comment though. I've always thought pk fire is fairly mediocre.

thesage · Jan 17, 2009

I hate it when Yoshi's egg camp. I actually have to start thinking about the matchup.

Dyz69 · Jan 17, 2009

umm not sure if this will help you guys but heres my Yoshi vs Ness opinion

MY strategy
Usually Ness uses Pk fire on me, i simply short hop and either Nair, or Dair i will pick Dair in case
Ness recovers....Ness also tends to short hop a lot and tries to Dair me, in wich i counter
by using pivot grabs or some eggs, now Ness can easely switch up these two by jumping and using pik fire, or chacnging the timing of his Dair with a second jump, but if i adapt his moves wont work

when i succesfuly smash Ness i try to counter his recovery i avoid spiking him cause it may end up killing me with his amazing Dair, i either approach him with Eggs, or maybe even a surprising egg roll
tough i dont use since he can really counter it with ease, my most used moves is
Nair, Fsmashes, Pivots, and Dsmash sometimes

Ness counters
i have gotten my self rapped by ness Fairs it counter my Bair so easely its not even funny,
Ness also uses PK thunder to get a few hits when im above him, his grabs can be instant kills sometimes
even with DI, but hes gotyta watch out for Yoshi Dair, if ness misses that kill grab he might get punished
sometimes i seen some ness mind game me with PK thunder, they hit me a few times and then charge themsefls at me, it is really strong but be careful and just adjust the distance between yoshis attacks and your Pk thunder speed

umm most likely analazy what yoshis main approaches are and counter them, if hes on the air Fair, if you manage to jump above him Dair, if hes camping use pk fire, also avoid using standard B, i have never been able to get hit once by one of them unless your prediction is superb and your mind game is at its peak go ahead it kills really good,

thats all i can say i can ratio since im sure a lot would disagree and well i hope this helps ^_^

Uffe · Jan 17, 2009

rel_12 (Yoshi) vs Ness_success (Ness)

I fought that Ness main about six months ago and he wasn't easy. Of course at the time I sucked with Ness. Still, just something Yoshi can do. Give rel_12 five stars, too. Someone voted that as poor, which is ridiculous. I think the player or a friend got all butt hurt about him being three stocked. Plus, rel_12 uses Ness, too.

Furbs · Jan 17, 2009

I love using ness!

I'm actually starting to pick him up!

the only ness i've played irl is vice grip

Uffe · Jan 17, 2009

Furbs said:
I love using ness!

I'm actually starting to pick him up!

the only ness i've played irl is vice grip

Lucky. I want to meet the guy.

Tidycats29 · Jan 17, 2009

Furbs said:
I love using ness!

I'm actually starting to pick him up!

the only ness i've played irl is vice grip

vicegrip is a beast with ness

i friendly him once
online though

yeah i think the match up is slight advantage 55;45 yoshi IMO

ness has some weird *** combos
that are annoying as hell when playing with yoshi

the double fair seems effective against yoshi
and the bair and dair for ness are nasty
i know others but i dont remember well

the battle in the air is close
our uair can do some nice damage and killing and our nair is good here
our bair here works ok
but ness has nice options also

we can egg camp you true
which can be good
and ness jumps dont help him much avoid the eggs

pk fire might be overrated for some
but it is something that can help here

our jab up close is annoying for you and our tilts can be a pain also
seeing as it can beat the yo yo in speed

our upsmash can kill your spacing
but usually i personally dont up smash much when ness is in ground
cause usually i get a pkfire to the face

though up smash is effective when ness is short hopping or just makes dumb moves in air

your bat isnt as strong as lucas

your grabs are good though
very

our pivot grab is effective if your try to approach with bair

we can gimp you
depending how fast we react
taking the pk thunder and you drop to the your death
or we can get hit by your thrust

i usually just egg spam when your recovering
unless im sure i can gimp you

you cannot gimp us that easy
we can just air dodge your dair or bair

but this is my opinion
hope it helped

Uffe · Jan 17, 2009

You Yoshi mains seem just as nice as the Ness mains.

Shaky · Jan 18, 2009

If only PKNintendo could organize this : 1. Saying what page each of the characters discussed start on
or 2. Making a summary of the matchups in the first post ;_;

AdmantNESS · Jan 18, 2009

S

Meta Knight:
1190 to 1228

Snake:
993 to 1032(revisit later since Snake board didn't respond much, well two offered their opinions)

1905 onward

Wario:
151 to 158

1324 to 1385

Falco:
1036 to 1128

Diddy Kong:
1500 to 1679(With mini-Ike argument and a non-consensus)

2277 to...

Topic

:dedede:

King DeDeDe:
946 to 992

A

Marth:
1665 to 1767 (Being largely ignored...)

Mr. Game & Watch:
Topic

Pikachu:
517 to 545

Olimar:
472-495(Needs a revisit as 1 Oli came here and there was a Mk tangent)

Ice Climbers
423 to 456

R.O.B.:
579 to 684

Kirby:
267 to 322

B

Lucario:
1807 to 1891(With Olimar tangent)

Zero Suit Samus:
323 to 364

: Toon Link
133 to 141(Very short. Rediscussion later?)

Pit:
373 to 421

Donkey Kong:
167 to 194

549 to 578

C

Peach:
Post 16 to 34

Luigi:
1247 to 1324

Fox:
918 to 946(maybe a bit more discussion?)

Wolf
Topic

Sonic
142 to 149(Very short. Rediscussion later?)

:shiek: Sheik:
237 to 251

1408 to 1417

D

Bowser:
1129 to 1189

Zelda:
195 to 228

Ike:
Post 34 to 45

457 to 470

501-513

E

Lucas:
Post 3 to 15

Mario
Post 46 to 96

688 to 813(Pretty heated discussion in there)

Ness:
1417 to 1453

Yoshi:
1453 to 1487

Samus
Post 99 to 131

Also 159 to 166

F

Jigglypuff:
1230 to 1245

Captain Falcon:
824 to 916(A lot of Game & Watch interruptions though)

Link:
229 to 235(Very short)

Ganondorf:
1385 to 1408

_clinton · Jan 18, 2009

AdmantNESS said:
Also, looks like the Fox boards are doing Ness on Monday
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6393159#post6393159

Oh dear sweet god...did anyone else look at the Pikachu picture they have for that match up?

Brinzy · Jan 18, 2009

Yes; it's amazing...

Snowstalker · Jan 20, 2009

I always saw Ness as a 40:60 match in the kid's favor.

I HATE HIS FAIR

PK-ow! · Jan 20, 2009

Shaky said:
If only PKNintendo could organize this : 1. Saying what page each of the characters discussed start on
or 2. Making a summary of the matchups in the first post ;_;

Those summaries have to be small though.
IF the first post is too big it... breaks.

Happened on Zelda boards. Although it might be 'cause of images. (**** us Zeldas and our love of pretty!)

Yeah it's likely a small thing in Ness' favour. I experience it to have just a bit working against me, but I also seem to be at the part in my personal development of metagame relation to Yoshi where he seems to be better than he really is (i.e., it goes horrible, then cool, then mediocre, I'm at 'cool').

ViceGrip · Jan 20, 2009

me and burntsocks played on saturday (He's the best Yoshis in California at least) and I beat him 2-1. Some of the most intense, epic matches of the whole day. It's either even or in Ness's favor, I'm thinking even.

PKSkyler · Jan 20, 2009

sockz is beast. His Yoshi is too good, he ussually does so much better, he just had an off day or something.

Shaky · Jan 20, 2009

Thanks a lot AdamantNess for the organizing!!! Anyways, I mained Yoshi before I mained Ness, now he is my secondary. A few things to say about the matchup:

1. Fair outranges Yoshi's bair (one of his main approaches)
2. Dair, Usmash, Uthrow, Uair : These are the attacks that I find very useful in this matchup. Since most Yoshis will try to Down b when you are below them, time your pkt so it can turn into a swell surprise when they are coming down.
3. Powershield Eggs
4. Don't get too close to the ledge when Yoshi is offstage (lots of people fall into the rising dair to uair/nair combo)
5. It is better to airdodge rather than dair when you are below them since Yoshi's uair comes out a lot faster than your dair.

I hope this helped.

Gaussis · Jan 20, 2009

Don't forget to mention the tongue. That thing can grab you out of your aerials if Yoshi spaces it well. Of course, a well-placed dair usually evens that one out though.

Tidycats29 · Jan 20, 2009

Shaky said:
Thanks a lot AdamantNess for the organizing!!! Anyways, I mained Yoshi before I mained Ness, now he is my secondary. A few things to say about the matchup:

1. Fair outranges Yoshi's bair (one of his main approaches)
2. Dair, Usmash, Uthrow, Uair : These are the attacks that I find very useful in this matchup. Since most Yoshis will try to Down b when you are below them, time your pkt so it can turn into a swell surprise when they are coming down.
3. Powershield Eggs
4. Don't get too close to the ledge when Yoshi is offstage (lots of people fall into the rising dair to uair/nair combo)
5. It is better to airdodge rather than dair when you are below them since Yoshi's uair comes out a lot faster than your dair.

I hope this helped.

We dont even think of using yoshi bomb in air
thats really dumb move to do

now if you said a yoshibomb in the ground where we can kill ya and get you off guard
then its different

but us yoshi mains dont bother using yoshi bomb in air

Shaky · Jan 20, 2009

Tidycats29 said:
We dont even think of using yoshi bomb in air
thats really dumb move to do

now if you said a yoshibomb in the ground where we can kill ya and get you off guard
then its different

but us yoshi mains dont bother using yoshi bomb in air

I am talking from experience, but I guess the good Yoshi mainers would not do that.

YoshiIslander77z · Jan 21, 2009

they would only use yoshi bomb if ness is in the air also but still is unlikly, powershield eggs... eggs can be used in different ways such as to make time to think, pushing u back, gettin closer, stop u fromd approaching (throeing egg where u may be next), ect.

if ur fair out ranges bair air it shouldnt be by much at all(i could be very wrong)

im not sure but its would seem a spaced pivot grab out ranges ALL u attack (i think). this should be stressed as yoshi can **** with pivot grab. yoshi has LOOOOOOOONG reach with his dash grab, neutral grab is rarly used.

but be sure to stress pivot grab

PKNintendo · Jan 21, 2009

ColinJF said:
I agree with Ness having a small advantage over Yoshi.

I don't understand Shiri's pk fire comment though. I've always thought pk fire is fairly mediocre.

IM BACK!

CPU busted up

@ Colin

At first I thought so to, but i've come to learn that the move is borderline good.
I mean against Yoshi... Yeesh.

So to wrap things up, small adv for Ness?

Shaky · Jan 21, 2009

I would say 55-45 or 60-40, depending on how you see the matchup.

AdmantNESS · Jan 21, 2009

So to sum it up

+ Grabs and spaced forward airs are good
+ Use Pk Thunder well
+ Fair and Dair should be used for approaching

-They can egg camp
-Watch out for pivot grabs
-jabs and tilts can outspeed yoyo
- stronger mid range game

More should probably be added. When I get more time, I probably do a sum-up of the other characters.

PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

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